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MeeposFire
2011-01-16, 04:21 AM
I was just thinking of the non-prestige class ways a monk or UA swordsage could boost their unarmed strike damage dice. I know there are a lot of ways but I cannot remember them all and many are prestige classes which are right out. These are what I recall.

1) ectoplamsic fist (requires kalashtar, chosen, or similar race).

2) Battlefist (requires warforged or strongarm graft)

3) Imp natural attack (updated fanged ring does the same thing or at least I think the most updated ring gave you the feat rather than a generic size boost).

I want ideas that are always "on" and do not require outside characters (greater mighty wallop is amazing and I would tell my wizard friend to cast it but I will not rely on it). Also I want to avoid classes in general (I may be only able to fit 1-2 levels so I cannot rely on prestige classes or base classes) try to tell me stuff that are items, feats, etc. Getting just one more size increase will increase my unarmed damage to 12d8 which is quite respectable if you think about it and due to my battlefist I will have weapon enchantments on my unarmed attacks. Thanks in advance!

Reynard
2011-01-16, 06:04 AM
Tome of Battle Feat: Superior Unarmed Strike. Either increases your damage die by a size, or if you're a monk, makes you count as 4 levels higher. Doesn't stack with Monk's Belt, apparently.

Powerful Build Racial trait. Goliaths and a couple of other races get this, which lets them choose to count as one size larger than they are for a number of things, including damage dice.

Re'ozul
2011-01-16, 06:21 AM
One way is taking warlock levels.
Feats used: Eldritch claws, beast strike.

Eldritch claws: as a free action form your blast into two claws (count as natural attacks) that deal unarmed strike damage+eldritch blast damage. (This is defined as your claw damage and therefore useful for beast strike)
Beast strike: If you have claws and make unarmed attacks, add your claw damage to your unarmed damage.

Overall that means you get twice your unarmed damage and once your blast damage with an unarmed attack. And because its an unarmed attack, can even flurry with it.
can be made even crazier if you're allowed to take improved natural attack (Eldritch claws) as your claws improve with unarmed damage AND eldritch blast damage as you level, and therefore the feat improves them ever further.

Downside is you need warlock 3 as you need 2d6 blasts to get the claws.
Example: 1d6 unarmed+2d6 blast=3d6 claws (4d6 with improved natural)
beast strike= unarmed +claw=5d6

Oh wait, monk. Alignment incompatibility. Move on.

Loki Eremes
2011-01-16, 06:22 AM
Ive done this before. and with a lvl 13 Gish monk achieved about 6 or 7d8 +(various things) damage per bitchslap xD


The secret relies on a lvl 3 spell, check it out:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133642



hope it helped.

Greenish
2011-01-16, 07:54 AM
Powerful Build Racial trait. Goliaths and a couple of other races get this, which lets them choose to count as one size larger than they are for a number of things, including damage dice.Nothing actually says that Powerful Build would confer higher unarmed damage dice, though it's a reasonable conjecture.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-16, 07:57 AM
Powerful Build Racial trait. Goliaths and a couple of other races get this, which lets them choose to count as one size larger than they are for a number of things, including damage dice.
Sorry, but that's one thing that's definitely not included with Powerful Build. Powerful Build does the following:

lets you count as one size larger for an opposed check that includes a (special) size modifier
lets you use weapons one size larger without penalty
makes it more difficult for creatures to affect you with size-dependent attacks like swallow whole
That's all of it. While you could use a larger manufactured weapon with Powerful Build, it doesn't make your kicks or punches more powerful because your feet and hands don't change size or gain more reach.

Darrin
2011-01-16, 08:44 AM
1) ectoplamsic fist (requires kalashtar, chosen, or similar race).


ECS p. 264.



2) Battlefist (requires warforged or strongarm graft)


Mighty Arms graft (Faiths of Eberron). Note: the description of how this item works with a monk's unarmed strike is extremely vague and confusing.

From the Battle Fist description, ECS p. 268: "A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than actual, and he can add the battlefist's enhancement bonus to his unarmed attack and damage rolls." Assuming a non-warforged monk with the Mighty Arms graft counts, there are a bunch of weird rules conundrums that aren't clear here: Is attacking with the battlefist no longer a slam attack? Can I use it for Flurry of Blows? Is the battlefist a light weapon or one-handed weapon? If I grab the battlefist with my other hand, can I treat it as a two-handed weapon? If I don't attack with the battlefist, like if I just kick/knee/elbow/headbutt, do I still get the enhancement bonus? Can I treat the battlefist as an off-hand weapon for TWF? If I don't use the battlefist in an iterative attack, can I still add it as a secondary natural attack with a -5 attack penalty? If I add more magic enhancements to the battlefist, such as flaming/frost/shock, do I get to add that to my other unarmed strikes as well? Can the battlefist hold a weapon/manipulate objects/make somatic gestures?

Check with your DM on how he wants to treat the battlefist.



3) Imp natural attack (updated fanged ring does the same thing or at least I think the most updated ring gave you the feat rather than a generic size boost).


Improved Natural Attack works on the monk's unarmed strike because it's explicitly treated as a natural weapon in most cases. Not all unarmed strikes are treated that way. The Fanged Ring is problematic because the designer assumes a non-monk Improved Unarmed Strike is eligible for Improved Natural Attack. This isn't clear by RAW, and still somewhat vigorously debated.

There are other classes/PrCs that grant the monk's unarmed strike without giving you monk levels: Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium), Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East), Unarmed Swordsage variant (Tome of Battle), Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion).

Note that Fist of the Forest can also be a bit wonky... it grants a damage increase on the 1st and 3rd levels, but by RAW only if your unarmed damage is already 1d8 or 1d10. Most of us just assume that this stacks with other size increases, but there are other interpretations.

There's at least one other way to get a size increase on your unarmed attacks: Shape Soulmeld (Totem Avatar) and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders). The latter isn't available until ECL 12, but can pick this up without taking 12 levels of meldshaping. However, a 2-level Totemist dip for *any* unarmed-strike build is absolute pure awesomesauce: four extra claw attacks, pounce with natural weapons, or add fire damage to your natural attacks.

Once you have Battlefist + Improved Natural Attack + Totem Avatar, the best way to increase your unarmed damage is by increasing your size: enlarge person, expansion, augmented expansion, alter self/polymorph, etc. Expansion is the easiest to fit into a build (Hidden Talent feat) with a PsyWar or Ardent dip. Two levels of Ardent + Practiced Manifester + a couple ML increases or Overchannel can even get you augmented expansion. Dipping into Tattooed Monk can give access to alter self. Otherwise, Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG) can give you all-day polymorph up to 7HD.

Zaq
2011-01-16, 01:49 PM
Well, there's Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle. It doesn't directly increase the size, but I think it'll still help.

Also, you know how Ectoplasmic Fists require you to be a Kalashtar? There's a way around that. Use Psionic Device lets you pretend to be a specific race (like, say, a Kalashtar). Just find a way to get your UPD up high enough to reliably get through the implanting procedure, and you're golden. (Yes, you have to have a manifester level . . . which UPD can also provide.) A lot of GMs will houserule that UMD and UPD are equivalent, so that might make it easier to get the skills you need.

MeeposFire
2011-01-16, 07:11 PM
Thank you for your ideas. I feel I should have gave the general build which is UA swordsage16/warblade4. I am willing to trade out some of the warblade levels if they give me something really worth while but I am 90% set on keeping 16 levels of swordsage.

1) superior unarmed strike is already going to be taken to boost my unarmed strike damage to 20th level. Unfortunately it will not give me my extra size boost.

2) eldritch claw will not help since to make this good I would need a large number of warlock levels which I cannot fit. Further this will not increase my damage die size.

3) I know about the greater mighty wallop spell but I am not taking spellcasting levels and I cannot rely on it (though I will want my wizard friend to cast it for me). You should be able to get more than just 6d8. I am already at 8d8 already before the spell.

4) Mighty arms graft is not to boost my unarmed attack, it is to allow me to use a battlefist. A battle fist works 100%. You even listed the rules where it explicitly states that if you are a monk that it makes you deal damage one size larger and lets me apply its bonuses to my unarmed strike. This lets me keep my unarmed strike as good as a weapon.

5) Totem avatar is exactly what I need. I do not need to take a new class and it gives me a size boost. Thank you I am now at 12D8 UA damage all the time.

6) Thanks for the UPD idea. I do not think I will use it as I was planning on being a kalashtar anyway, but I like the way you think.

The stuff I listed I already know about, which is why I have their requirements listed so you do not have to go through the trouble of going over the stuff I listed in my first post.

Thanks guys I really appreciate what you have done and if you have more ideas please mention them. You guys are great I am now up to 12D8 let us see if we can do better for all day UA damage.

FMArthur
2011-01-16, 08:23 PM
I strongly recommend doing an "Unarmed Soulknife" if you want to dedicate your build to getting the most out of your Unarmed Strike. It is probably the absolute coolest and most flavorful 'rules disaster' in the whole game.

The whole idea comes from the feat Reshape Mind Blade (Unarmed Strike), which lets you shape your Mind Blade into an Unarmed Strike. I think this would probably give you a sort of glowing-green shadow surrounding yourself since your whole body is an Unarmed Strike, but there's no given flavor for this combination so feel free to make stuff up about what it looks like.
Taking Tashalatora after Monastic Training (Soulknife) lets you progress your Unarmed Strike damage with Soulknife levels, but the Kalashtar-only Atavist prestige class also progresses both simultaneously.
Your Throw Mind Blade class feature allows for a number of very unique shenanigans. One of my favourites is Scorpion's Grasp, which works with it as a sort of tele-grapple when you hit someone with a thrown Mind Fist.
You get enhancement bonuses automatically, and a few decent weapon enhancements like Wounding or Lucky. Lucky is pretty good when you can refresh it once a round by forming a new Mind Blade.
You can use the Soulblade Warrior feat to improve your Soulknife level by 2 for Mind Blade enhancements, and you can gain a further 4 levels over normal Mind Blade progression by entering the (Kalashtar-only) Atavist prestige class and taking Practiced Mind Blade. It also progresses your Unarmed Strike and can get you reach on your melee attacks, but you can't use Tashalatora to double-up on US progression by taking Monastic Training (Atavist) due to the wording of the abilities involved.
You can replace awful Psychic Strike with bonus feats that can be *any feat* that improves combat with your Mind Blade.
You can do an Augmented Expansion through your Kalashtar power points using the Hidden Talent ACF.

MeeposFire
2011-01-16, 09:00 PM
I strongly recommend doing an "Unarmed Soulknife" if you want to dedicate your build to getting the most out of your Unarmed Strike. It is probably the absolute coolest and most flavorful 'rules disaster' in the whole game.

The whole idea comes from the feat Reshape Mind Blade (Unarmed Strike), which lets you shape your Mind Blade into an Unarmed Strike. I think this would probably give you a sort of glowing-green shadow surrounding yourself since your whole body is an Unarmed Strike, but there's no given flavor for this combination so feel free to make stuff up about what it looks like.
Taking Tashalatora after Monastic Training (Soulknife) lets you progress your Unarmed Strike damage with Soulknife levels, but the Kalashtar-only Atavist prestige class also progresses both simultaneously.
Your Throw Mind Blade class feature allows for a number of very unique shenanigans. One of my favourites is Scorpion's Grasp, which works with it as a sort of tele-grapple when you hit someone with a thrown Mind Fist.
You get enhancement bonuses automatically, and a few decent weapon enhancements like Wounding or Lucky. Lucky is pretty good when you can refresh it once a round by forming a new Mind Blade.
You can use the Soulblade Warrior feat to improve your Soulknife level by 2 for Mind Blade enhancements, and you can gain a further 4 levels over normal Mind Blade progression by entering the (Kalashtar-only) Atavist prestige class and taking Practiced Mind Blade. It also progresses your Unarmed Strike and can get you reach on your melee attacks, but you can't use Tashalatora to double-up on US progression by taking Monastic Training (Atavist) due to the wording of the abilities involved.
You can replace awful Psychic Strike with bonus feats that can be *any feat* that improves combat with your Mind Blade.
You can do an Augmented Expansion through your Kalashtar power points using the Hidden Talent ACF.

Ah yes I know this well as I had made this as a soulbow in a Ravenloft campaign. Fun but not what I am looking this time. I am glad I am not the only one to see that synergy. Kalashtar are also nice there since they get free Power points so you can use expansion a number of times.

Actually that is still a fair idea using the hidden talent feat with my swordmage so good job reminding me of that in particular.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-16, 10:03 PM
I strongly recommend doing an "Unarmed Soulknife" if you want to dedicate your build to getting the most out of your Unarmed Strike. It is probably the absolute coolest and most flavorful 'rules disaster' in the whole game.

The whole idea comes from the feat Reshape Mind Blade (Unarmed Strike), which lets you shape your Mind Blade into an Unarmed Strike.
This isn't quite legit. While an unarmed strike is treated as a light weapon for categorization purposes, it isn't one.
Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon with which you are proficient.
unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons.
Edit: This clear separation of unarmed strike from weapons has been in the rules since the start of D&D 3.0. See the specific exception language required for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization:
Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat. Reshape Mind Blade has no exception for unarmed strike, so that isn't a legal option for the feat; you're restricted to weapons.

MeeposFire
2011-01-16, 10:27 PM
Oddly while unarmed strike is not a "light melee weapon" by the rules (even if it is treated as one) it is a weapon. In fact it is a simple weapon look at the weapon table in the PHB or in the SRD. The language in the unarmed strike description can be inferred to mean that it is not a weapon but that is only one interpretation and it conflicts with the table and unarmed strike being a weapon does not conflict with the wording in the unarmed strike description.

Some say monks should not be proficient with unarmed attacks because of this but I look at monk unarmed strikes as being natural weapons (hence why imp natural attack works with it) and you are always prof with your own natural weapons. Of course this is also a rationalization of the many things that do not make much sense in 3.5.

Jothki
2011-01-16, 10:42 PM
This isn't quite legit. While an unarmed strike is treated as a light weapon for categorization purposes, it isn't one.
Edit: This clear separation of unarmed strike from weapons has been in the rules since the start of D&D 3.0. See the specific exception language required for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization: Reshape Mind Blade has no exception for unarmed strike, so that isn't a legal option for the feat; you're restricted to weapons.

If for some reason the DM rules that it is, does that mean that you could reshape your mindblade into a ray?

Curmudgeon
2011-01-16, 10:45 PM
In fact it is a simple weapon look at the weapon table in the PHB or in the SRD. The language in the unarmed strike description can be inferred to mean that it is not a weapon but that is only one interpretation and it conflicts with the table

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&DŽ rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. In these sorts of disputes, tables always lose.

FMArthur
2011-01-16, 10:52 PM
So Unarmed Strikes are always considered light weapons... and simultaneously, not weapons? The rules don't ever seem to talk about unarmed attacks in any consistent way, including this issue. Attacking without weapons gives you an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes are light weapons. A Monk's unarmed strikes are natural weapons and manufactured weapons.

I've so far seen more instances of unarmed strike being referred to as a weapon than something else. Whether they specify that unarmed strikes are eligable for feats like Weapon Focus merely for added clarity or as an attempt at defining unarmed strikes is also unclear.

RAW makes mention of the distinction in indirect and conflicting ways. RAI... just seems to indicate that different designers had different ideas on what an unarmed strike is.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-16, 11:19 PM
So Unarmed Strikes are always considered light weapons... and simultaneously, not weapons? The rules don't ever seem to talk about unarmed attacks in any consistent way, including this issue. Attacking without weapons gives you an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes are light weapons.
You were all right up until that point, but the bold part isn't what the rules say. An unarmed strike is always considered (or counts as) a light weapon for weapon weight categorization, even though it is not a weapon. A feat that specifically refers to a weapon doesn't apply without a specific exception to also allow unarmed strike; you can see examples of this exception language in Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. (More instances of specific inclusion language for unarmed strike can be found in the PH Combat chapter for disarm, grapple, and two-weapon fighting.)

MeeposFire
2011-01-16, 11:32 PM
You were all right up until that point, but the bold part isn't what the rules say. An unarmed strike is always considered (or counts as) a light weapon for weapon weight categorization, even though it is not a weapon. A feat that specifically refers to a weapon doesn't apply without a specific exception to also allow unarmed strike; you can see examples of this exception language in Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. (More instances of specific inclusion language for unarmed strike can be found in the PH Combat chapter for disarm, grapple, and two-weapon fighting.)

Where does it actually say "unarmed strike is not a weapon" rather than you inferring it from the written rules that are consistently unclear? All you have brought up is that either unarmed strike is not a weapon or that the writers felt a need to clarify that unarmed strike is considered a weapon and not a "natural weapon" and so you can use these weapon feats with it. Do you have evidence that is clear and concise that directly says unarmed strike is not a weapon?

Curmudgeon
2011-01-16, 11:35 PM
Where does it actually say "unarmed strike is not a weapon"?
In the Player's Handbook on page 314:
unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons.

MeeposFire
2011-01-16, 11:58 PM
Very nice job! Of course I have a rebuttal...

Funny I found these in the SRD too

"Natural Weapons

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature...Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do".

Hmm funny this seems to say that natural weapons are weapons too. So don't you think that the writers are a little vague and leave it at that? Or perhaps just like the word "levels" that they use the word weapon to mean multiple things throughout the game.

EDIT: Here is the link to the page if you want it...http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm