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foram3438
2011-01-16, 09:47 AM
What are the con's of dispel magic? The PHB is not to clear on how it really works. It is a bit confusing. My questions are:

1) How dispel works with area spells?
2) Why can't magic objects (i.e., rings) be dispelled in Area Dispel?
3) We fought a bassilisk. I banished it but could Dispel Magic done the trick too?
4) Why having Targeted aand Area Dispels?? It seem Area is best if centered on enemy caster.
5) If a creature or object is buffed w/ 3 spells. I do 3 checks to dispel. Can I dispel ALL 3 buffs w/ one single Dispel Magic?

I want to play my Wizard as a good dispeller and counterspeller. ANy tips on tacticts????

You dispel magic items or is it suppressed?

Situation:
We encountered a creature. The creature:
1) was already summoned when we saw it
2) it has a ROP +3
3) is buffed w/ Enlarge + Bull STR + Haste

What can Dispel Magic do if I casted once. If sucessful, what happens???

When using Dispel Magic as a Counterspell, why it may not work (besides failing the check)??? The PHB goes back and forth between Page 171 and 223!!!!

tyckspoon
2011-01-16, 01:09 PM
1: If you target the spell specifically, or if your Area dispel covers the point of origin of the spell, then you will Dispel the entire thing. If you Area dispel only intersects with the area of the other spell but does not cover the point of origin, you dispel only the section covered by your Dispel; that is, you can remove half of a Web or Wall of Fire or similar without actually ending the spell proper.

2: Balance concern, mostly; allowing Area dispel to hit every single magic item in its area would make it ridiculously effective at debuffing any gear-using opponent (although it can still strip gear-buffs like Bless Weapon, Magic Vestments, and Greater Magic Weapon.)

3: Generally, no; Dispel Magic will only be directly effective if the target is a Summoned creature. Simply being extraplanar/of the Outsider type does not make a creature subject to Dispelling.

4: A Targeted dispel can remove all of the spells on a creature or suppress a magic item; this is important if you need to level the field against a heavily-buffed opponent or remove a key protection/movement ability/attack they are getting from their equipment. Area is used to attempt to debuff a larger group, try to catch somebody who you can't directly target (because they use Greater Invisibility, for example), or remove area spells while also taking an effect off some of your enemies (Area Dispel the Black Tentacles while also taking the Freedom of Movement off the Fighter who was thrashing your own grappled Fighter, maybe.)

5: Yes. That is the reason for using a Targeted dispel.

If you're working mostly/only in Core? Skip Counterspelling; if you want to suppress spellcasting, you do it much more efficiently by readying an action to blast the opposing caster with something. Throwing a Fireball, set of Scorching Rays, or even a humble Magic Missile in a caster's face when he tries to cast will generate a DC 30-40 Concentration check to save the spell.

Magic items are only suppressed, and that for a short period, so you only want to do that if you need something taken out now and can take advantage while it's gone (your opponent has an item making him Ethereal or giving him a miss chance that is making it difficult/near impossible for your party to hurt him, for example.)

In your example situation, if you target the creature you will test against:
1: The spell that Summoned it
2: All three of the buff spells
If you successfully Dispel the spell that summoned it, the creature will be sent back home, along with any other creatures that were summoned by the same casting (if you succeed on dispelling the one creature targeted, it ends the entire spell, not just the one creature.) Although note that Calling spells are not the same as Summoning, and often have Instantaneous durations which makes it impossible to Dispel them.
If you don't Dispel the summon, you will check against all three of the buffs individually and may or may not remove them all. The Ring is unaffected; items have to be targeted separately.

foram3438
2011-01-16, 11:09 PM
THANK YOU SO MUCH.....you have clarified tons of doubts I had about Dispels...two last things:
1) What you meant by " If you're working mostly/only in Core? Skip Counterspelling"

2) When using Dispel Magic as a Counterspell, why it may not work (besides failing the check)??? The PHB goes back and forth between Page 171 and 223!!!!

tyckspoon
2011-01-16, 11:17 PM
THANK YOU SO MUCH.....you have clarified tons of doubts I had about Dispels...two last things:
1) What you meant by " If you're working mostly/only in Core? Skip Counterspelling"

2) When using Dispel Magic as a Counterspell, why it may not work (besides failing the check)??? The PHB goes back and forth between Page 171 and 223!!!!

In Core material (that is, using just the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual), counterspelling is not worth the actions and resources it uses. Especially using the actual counterspell rules; you have to Ready your action to do it, you have to make your Spellcraft to know what you're counterspelling, and you have to have the correct spell to counterspell with. Or you can use Dispel Magic, which solves the last two but substitutes in making a caster level check instead, which means you can't guarantee your counterspell works. It's much more effective to use that same spell slot and readied action for a generic "I ready to blow his face up when he tries to cast", which both brings your enemy closer to defeat and more reliably counters the spell by means of a near impossible Concentration check. Or you can use your action actively to cast a spell yourself, which should also significantly contribute to winning the encounter.

Not rolling high enough on your caster level check is the reason Dispel Magic may not work as a Counterspell. You're not missing any mechanics there.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 10:35 AM
THANKS..yes our DM is basing the game on mainly on Core Book but allows C. Arcane, C. Divine, etc.
I agree when it comes to counterspelling. I guess it will come handy in a mage intensive campaign which is not the case on the one I am part of.

Another Situation:
If a caster has Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Still Spell how can I ready an action to attack to break concentration? In theory the caster makes no movement nor sound.
If the spell to be cast has materials >1gp, which Eschew's does not apply, or spell requires Focus then I can tell.

My Character is Fighter Lvl1 and Wizard (Abjurer) Lvl 14. I took Feats Mage Slayer (-4 CL) + Piercing Magical Protection (-4 CL)+ Practiced Spellcaster (+4 CL). Reason I did Fighter and took those Feats is to Prestige as Eldritch Knight (DMG) (Bonus Feat, Good BAB progression, Increase Spell Levels). My idea is to literally get in close combat w/ caster and screw up their AC buffs. Is there a better Prestige for what I have in mind?

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-17, 10:43 AM
Another question that comes to mind . . . If I have Battlemagic Perception (HoB) active, will it let the caster actually cast Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic as a free action? Since using those spells is one way to "counterspell" it seems like this is a possibility.

Greenish
2011-01-17, 10:56 AM
Another Situation:
If a caster has Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Still Spell how can I ready an action to attack to break concentration? In theory the caster makes no movement nor sound.Spellcraft skill description specifies that you have to be able to see or hear the spell being cast to get a roll to recognize it. That seems to imply you can't tell if a spell is being cast when you don't see the signs.

On the other hand, casting a silent, stilled spell still provokes AoO unless you cast defensively, which seems to say that the concentration required to cast a spell is visible.


My Character is Fighter Lvl1 and Wizard (Abjurer) Lvl 14. I took Feats Mage Slayer (-4 CL) + Piercing Magical Protection (-4 CL)+ Practiced Spellcaster (+4 CL). Reason I did Fighter and took those Feats is to Prestige as Eldritch Knight (DMG) (Bonus Feat, Good BAB progression, Increase Spell Levels). My idea is to literally get in close combat w/ caster and screw up their AC buffs. Is there a better Prestige for what I have in mind?Mage Slayer & Pierce Magical Protection isn't so hot for a gish (a caster/fighter).

A PrC you'll want to take is Abjurant Champion from C. Mage. 5/5 casting, full BAB, great class features (focused on making your abjurations better).

Psyren
2011-01-17, 11:01 AM
Another question that comes to mind . . . If I have Battlemagic Perception (HoB) active, will it let the caster actually cast Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic as a free action? Since using those spells is one way to "counterspell" it seems like this is a possibility.

Yes, you can use a general counterspell (i.e. DM/GDM) with Battlemagic Perception. This line:

"Counterspell attempts are otherwise handled normally"

means you are free to counter the spell any way you normally could. This includes other ways to counterspell, including the Warlock invocation, if they are somehow able to cast Battlemagic Perception first (e.g. from an item.)

Lapak
2011-01-17, 11:10 AM
Spellcraft skill description specifies that you have to be able to see or hear the spell being cast to get a roll to recognize it. That seems to imply you can't tell if a spell is being cast when you don't see the signs.Well, it implies that you can't tell which spell is being cast, not that a spell is being cast. Which is why...


On the other hand, casting a silent, stilled spell still provokes AoO unless you cast defensively, which seems to say that the concentration required to cast a spell is visible.
So yeah. Apparently by RAW spellcasting is still recognizable as such even if it is Still and Silent; the caster stands there and crosses his eyes with concentration or some such thing.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 11:13 AM
SLAs and still-silent spells provoke AoOs because the character's eyes unfocus or he becomes otherwise distracted. That doesn't mean that the caster's enemies will have anything to identify.

Psionics has the same issue - manifesting always provokes, but if you suppress the display that accompanies a power then enemy manifesters explicitly have no way to identify it (see the Psicraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/psicraft.htm) skill.)

TL;DR just because casting provokes, does not make the effect identifiable until it happens.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 11:13 AM
Another question that comes to mind . . . If I have Battlemagic Perception (HoB) active, will it let the caster actually cast Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic as a free action? Since using those spells is one way to "counterspell" it seems like this is a possibility.

HoB page 125: "This determination happens quickly enough that you can attempt to counter the spell as a free action".

So yes, if you use them as counterspells.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 11:23 AM
Spellcraft skill description specifies that you have to be able to see or hear the spell being cast to get a roll to recognize it. That seems to imply you can't tell if a spell is being cast when you don't see the signs.

On the other hand, casting a silent, stilled spell still provokes AoO unless you cast defensively, which seems to say that the concentration required to cast a spell is visible.
Mage Slayer & Pierce Magical Protection isn't so hot for a gish (a caster/fighter).

A PrC you'll want to take is Abjurant Champion from C. Mage. 5/5 casting, full BAB, great class features (focused on making your abjurations better).

Our DM is not allowing the CM book.

ShriekingDrake
2011-01-17, 11:23 AM
That is a HUGE boost as it will allow a great deal more flexibility with using the dispel line. You still have the burden of having to make a caster level check, but if Battlemagic Perception (a third level spell) is active--and you're playing a sorcerer--this would let you pick and choose which spells to challenge as a free action. Now all you need to do is find a DM who will let you create a Battlemagic Perception item--of course that can be used against you as well.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 11:25 AM
Our DM is not allowing the CM book.

What books are allowed? If it's just core, you're better off smacking them with a damage spell if they try to cast than actually counterspelling.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 11:31 AM
Well, it implies that you can't tell which spell is being cast, not that a spell is being cast. Which is why...


So yeah. Apparently by RAW spellcasting is still recognizable as such even if it is Still and Silent; the caster stands there and crosses his eyes with concentration or some such thing.

From my point of view, if Still/Silent/Eschew are in place the caser just looks at you and you are fried by a fireball...so AoO for casting does not apply or should not nor casting defensively. Would this be correct.

Agree, if spell requires concentration then you can tell he/she is attempting to cast.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 11:37 AM
What books are allowed? If it's just core, you're better off smacking them with a damage spell if they try to cast than actually counterspelling.

PHB, DMG, CWarrior, CArcane, CScoundrel, CDivine, Libris Mortis, HoB, CChampion, CAdv, PHB II (depends on what)

foram3438
2011-01-17, 11:41 AM
Well, it implies that you can't tell which spell is being cast, not that a spell is being cast. Which is why...


So yeah. Apparently by RAW spellcasting is still recognizable as such even if it is Still and Silent; the caster stands there and crosses his eyes with concentration or some such thing.

From my point of view, if Still/Silent/Eschew are in place the caser just looks at you and you are fried by a fireball...so AoO for casting does not apply or should not nor casting defensively. Would this be correct.

Agree, if spell requires concentration then you can tell he/she is attempting to cast.

Toliudar
2011-01-17, 11:42 AM
From my point of view, if Still/Silent/Eschew are in place the caser just looks at you and you are fried by a fireball...so AoO for casting does not apply or should not nor casting defensively. Would this be correct.

By the rules as written, even a still/silent/eschewed spell draws attacks of opportunity. If you're counterspelling using Dispel Magic, there's no requirement that you know WHAT spell is being cast. So yes, I'd still allow counterspelling of a silent etc spell, just as you can counterspell a spell-like ability.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-17, 11:44 AM
Even if you're casting a Stilled, Silent spell with Eschew Materials, you're still focusing on something that isn't the big guy with the sword in front of you.

Psionic powers provoke attacks of opportunity, too!

Lapak
2011-01-17, 11:44 AM
From my point of view, if Still/Silent/Eschew are in place the caser just looks at you and you are fried by a fireball...so AoO for casting does not apply or should not nor casting defensively. Would this be correct.
Agree, if spell requires concentration then you can tell he/she is attempting to cast.It would certainly be a reasonable house rule - I'd entertain it, for sure - but by the rules as written even a Stilled, Silent, no-materials spell requires the caster to take a Standard Action that provokes an attack of opportunity; that suggests that all spells do require a noticeable effort of concentration to cast.

Now a Stilled, Silent, Eschewed, Quickened spell that only takes a swift action? That doesn't provoke by RAW - the Quickened part takes care of that all by itself.

Though an interesting bit is that you can still fire off a Counterspell readied action against a Quickened spell. I'd definitely consider an argument that a Quickened Stilled Eschewed Silent spell could avoid that, but even that would be a house rule. :smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-17, 11:46 AM
Readied actions happen before the action that triggers them.

Even if he's firing the spell off in half a second, going first is still quicker.

Lapak
2011-01-17, 11:47 AM
Readied actions happen before the action that triggers them.

Even if he's firing the spell off in half a second, going first is still quicker.Sure, but you have to recognize that they're doing what you were trying to interrupt in order to act. If the spell is fired with no outward sign whatsoever while you're standing there waiting for him to cast, it's tough to go first.

Like I said, it's not RAW, but I could see it as a house rule.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 11:48 AM
Mage Slayer & Pierce Magical Protection isn't so hot for a gish (a caster/fighter).


Agree, Mage Slayer is not much but is a Pre-req for PMP. PMP is very good. You ignore all AC spell based buffs (Natural Armor, Mage armor, shield, etc). If you hit all those spells are automatically dispelled. So, if you cast True Strike (+20) you will definately will hit.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 11:51 AM
By the rules as written, even a still/silent/eschewed spell draws attacks of opportunity. If you're counterspelling using Dispel Magic, there's no requirement that you know WHAT spell is being cast. So yes, I'd still allow counterspelling of a silent etc spell, just as you can counterspell a spell-like ability.

In close quater yes, AoO apply...but if I am 100 feet away from battle casting range...how can I tell?..maybe I am confusing things :)

Toliudar
2011-01-17, 12:02 PM
Again, if a spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) can be counterspelled, why not a stilled etc spell? I mean, you're free to house-rule otherwise, but do you normally make people make spot checks to notice other things that are happening? If so, then by all means do the same with a stilled spell, but that kind of complexity would seem to slow down the game significantly.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 12:05 PM
Again, if a spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) can be counterspelled, why not a stilled etc spell? I mean, you're free to house-rule otherwise, but do you normally make people make spot checks to notice other things that are happening? If so, then by all means do the same with a stilled spell, but that kind of complexity would seem to slow down the game significantly.

just in case...I am not the DM :) I was just wondering about it..but I see your point...I guess I have some arguments to run by my DM...

Greenish
2011-01-17, 12:06 PM
Again, if a spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) can be counterspelled, why not a stilled etc spell?Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

[Edit]: As to why a silent, stilled spell can't be counterspelled: counterspelling requires you to identify the spell being cast with a spellcraft check, but spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) specifies that "[y]ou must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components" to identify the spell being cast.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 12:13 PM
Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

[Edit]: As to why a silent, stilled spell can't be counterspelled: counterspelling requires you to identify the spell being cast with a spellcraft check, but spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) specifies that "[y]ou must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components" to identify the spell being cast.

PHB page 142: "Spell-like abilities can be disrupted"

This clarifies...so yes, if spell is Stilled, Silenced, and Eschewed it can be
dispelled or countered or disrupted.

Toliudar
2011-01-17, 12:15 PM
Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

Doh! I saw that they could be dispelled, and missed the earlier passage. Apologies.

Greenish
2011-01-17, 12:19 PM
PHB page 142: "Spell-like abilities can be disrupted"Distrupting isn't same as counterspelling. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted by damage (from, say, the AoO which they provoke).

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 12:27 PM
[Edit]: As to why a silent, stilled spell can't be counterspelled: counterspelling requires you to identify the spell being cast with a spellcraft check, but spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) specifies that "[y]ou must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components" to identify the spell being cast.

If you are counterspelling with Dispel Magic, it doesn't matter if you can identify the spell being cast, simply that you can identify THAT a spell is being cast.

Also, a Ring of Greater Counterspells(DMGII/MIC) and the Battle Magic Perception (HoB) feat both allow you to identify spells being cast near you, so long as you have LoE, even if you can't see the spells being cast. Thus you could counterspell an invisible caster, or one behind a moderate degree of cover.

Greenish
2011-01-17, 12:30 PM
If you are counterspelling with Dispel Magic, it doesn't matter if you can identify the spell being cast, simply that you can identify THAT a spell is being cast.Oh, right, there's that. :smallredface:

Douglas
2011-01-17, 01:09 PM
From my point of view, if Still/Silent/Eschew are in place the caser just looks at you and you are fried by a fireball...so AoO for casting does not apply or should not nor casting defensively. Would this be correct.

Agree, if spell requires concentration then you can tell he/she is attempting to cast.
No, the concentration and distraction that provokes the AoO are independent of any components. Removing all components from a spell does absolutely nothing about AoOs.

ericgrau
2011-01-17, 05:17 PM
Now for optimization considerations: Dispel works roughly half the time, so the break even point is when you can target 2 buffs. 3 or more would be better, especially since pre-combat buffs tend to be weaker than spells used during combat.

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 05:22 PM
A useful tool for a dispeller is the feat Arcane Mastery in Complete Arcane. It allows you to take 10 on CL checks. A dispel check is a special kind of CL check, but none the less a CL check.

Now look at the DCs to dispel things. Its 11 + CL. You're dispel check is 10 + CL, meaning that you'll automatically dispel anyone with a CL of 1 less than you. Now, you factor in the fudging. Inquisition domain gives you a +4 on dispel checks. Now, instead of people 1 level lower than you, you autodispel anyone 3 levels HIGHER than you. Thats most boss-type casters. If you have the Master Abjurur ACF, you can get up to another +2-5 on dispel checks, landing you at dispelling casters 5-8 levels higher than you. There are a few other tools you can use as well, depending on whether or not you are actively dispelling or passively dispelling (reactive counterspelling like with Battlemagic Perception or Divine Defiance).

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-17, 06:08 PM
I forget, does dispelling cord (item) works for arcane casters? because if so, I think you now can dispel someone within roughly 10 levels from you.

Runestar
2011-01-17, 06:19 PM
No, the concentration and distraction that provokes the AoO are independent of any components. Removing all components from a spell does absolutely nothing about AoOs.

Agreed.

Think about it, a monster provokes an AoO for using a SLA (which lacks verbal, somatic and material components). Why would spells be exempt? :smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 06:22 PM
I forget, does dispelling cord (item) works for arcane casters? because if so, I think you now can dispel someone within roughly 10 levels from you.

It does. It eats up your swift action though, which means you can't use it on a turn that isn't your own, like if you were counterspelling. Thats why I said it works great for active dispelling, but falls a little lacking for passive or reactive dispelling.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 07:28 PM
A useful tool for a dispeller is the feat Arcane Mastery in Complete Arcane. It allows you to take 10 on CL checks. A dispel check is a special kind of CL check, but none the less a CL check.

Now look at the DCs to dispel things. Its 11 + CL. You're dispel check is 10 + CL, meaning that you'll automatically dispel anyone with a CL of 1 less than you. Now, you factor in the fudging. Inquisition domain gives you a +4 on dispel checks. Now, instead of people 1 level lower than you, you autodispel anyone 3 levels HIGHER than you. Thats most boss-type casters. If you have the Master Abjurur ACF, you can get up to another +2-5 on dispel checks, landing you at dispelling casters 5-8 levels higher than you. There are a few other tools you can use as well, depending on whether or not you are actively dispelling or passively dispelling (reactive counterspelling like with Battlemagic Perception or Divine Defiance).

personally I am not to fond of taking 10 especially w/ Dispelling. Yes, you have a 50% chance of rolling lower or higher..also remember that your dispel check has to beat a DC of 1d20 + 11..so by taking the AM FEAT it all boils down to the DM rolling higher than a 10....for example...if I take the FEAT my check will be 23....so...the DM has to roll a 13 or higher....mmmmmm....

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 07:31 PM
Who's rolling? The DC to beat is fixed. 11 + CL. Period.

If you have Arcane Mastery, your roll is always 10 + CL.

If you have the Inquisition domain, your roll is then effectively always 14 + CL.

Nobody is rolling anything at that point. Its just comparing CLs and seeing who's is bigger, and you've got a performance enhancer to cover the spread. If your foe is 3 levels higher than you OR LOWER, you autodispel EVERY TIME YOU CAST. Thats way better than rolling.

foram3438
2011-01-17, 08:35 PM
Who's rolling? The DC to beat is fixed. 11 + CL. Period.

If you have Arcane Mastery, your roll is always 10 + CL.

If you have the Inquisition domain, your roll is then effectively always 14 + CL.

Nobody is rolling anything at that point. Its just comparing CLs and seeing who's is bigger, and you've got a performance enhancer to cover the spread. If your foe is 3 levels higher than you OR LOWER, you autodispel EVERY TIME YOU CAST. Thats way better than rolling.

ooppss....read the spell wrong..you are right :)

Darrin
2011-01-17, 08:43 PM
I forget, does dispelling cord (item) works for arcane casters? because if so, I think you now can dispel someone within roughly 10 levels from you.

Yes, Dispelling Cords work with any kind of caster.

Also, the Scarab of Aradros (1500 GP, Weapons of Legacy) grants +1 untyped bonus to any caster level checks to dispel or counterspell.