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Master Thrower
2011-01-16, 01:06 PM
How HiPS work with stuff like spring attack? or how do you even use it in combat at all? with a minus 20?

Darwin
2011-01-16, 01:26 PM
HiPS (Hide in Plain Sight) allows you to use your Hide skill even while being observed by enemies. That doesn't mean that you automatically succeed on that check nor does it confer any penalties or bonuses, and if they make their spot checks you're as visible as you'd be without HiPS. It changes nothing about the numbers or how the Hide skill otherwise works.

That means that you could move across a courtyard observed by guards and still take a Hide skill to avoid being observed. Without it the Guards would roll Spot against a flat, and very low DC.

Quoted from the SRD:
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

2xMachina
2011-01-16, 01:26 PM
HiPS is just hide that can be used without concealment/cover (in certain circumstances). Everything else is the same.

Defiant
2011-01-16, 01:28 PM
HiPS is just hide that can be used without concealment/cover (in certain circumstances). Everything else is the same.

No, HiPS satisfies the "while being observed" requirement. You still need to find some cover or concealment to satisfy both requirements and hide.

Of course, note that the Assassin's HiPS, for example, can allow you to satisfy the cover or concealment part as well, but this isn't universal. It needs to be specified.

Master Thrower
2011-01-16, 01:30 PM
So the Shadow Dancer HiPS would I need spring attack to use it in combat?

Master Thrower
2011-01-16, 01:36 PM
So the Shadow Dancer HiPS would I need spring attack to use it in combat?

Defiant
2011-01-16, 01:40 PM
How HiPS work with stuff like spring attack? or how do you even use it in combat at all? with a minus 20?

So it's your turn. Whether you're hidden or not will not affect your current combat roll, but will affect your next (for denying dex to AC and applying sneak attack as appropriate).

As long as you satisfy the hide requirements that you're not being observed and that you have cover/concealment, you can make a hide check. With Hide in Plain Sight, you satisfy the observed part, and many Hide in Plain Sight class features also grant some contingent form of cover/concealment substitute. As assassin can satisfy the cover/concealment requirement as long as he or she is near to a shadow. A 17th level ranger can satisfy the cover/concealment requirement as long as he or she is in natural terrain.

As you move towards the enemy, you can attempt to hide. If you move more than half your speed, you will receive a -5 penalty to the roll. Your opponent will get a reactive spot check to see you. If he fails, then your next attack will deny him his Dex to AC (etc.). If he succeeds, then it won't.

So whether you've succeeded on this hiding attempt will determine the modifiers of your next combat roll. Your next move is to attack as part of the spring attack. You can attempt to hide at a -20 penalty while attacking, assuming you can satisfy or substitute the two hide requirements. Since this is a new type of action, your opponent will get a reactive spot check.

Then you can move away as part of your spring attack, again hiding. Whether your opponent is going to get a reactive spot check is up to your DM. You don't receive ("free") reactive spot checks to things you failed to see before, you need to spend a standard action to get another spot check. Whether this action is the same as your previous move action (if you succeeded in hiding there) or not will determine whether a reactive spot check is warranted.

Defiant
2011-01-16, 01:43 PM
So the Shadow Dancer HiPS would I need spring attack to use it in combat?

The feat "Spring Attack" is not a requisite for using the Hide skill.

Hide requires that you are not being observed and that you have some sort of cover/concealment. Once you satisfy these requirements, you can attempt to hide (and thus make a hide check).

The Shadow Dance Hide in Plain Sight grants the following benefits:

A) You can now hide while being observed.
B) You don't need cover or concealment if you are within 10 feet of a shadow.

Urpriest
2011-01-16, 01:50 PM
The feat "Spring Attack" is not a requisite for using the Hide skill.

Hide requires that you are not being observed and that you have some sort of cover/concealment. Once you satisfy these requirements, you can attempt to hide (and thus make a hide check).

The Shadow Dance Hide in Plain Sight grants the following benefits:

A) You can now hide while being observed.
B) You don't need cover or concealment if you are within 10 feet of a shadow.

I think the question being asked is this: suppose he's within 10 feet of a shadow and adjacent to an enemy. Suppose he begins his turn visible. Absent extra actions (Belt of Battle or the like) can he hide and make a full attack? And if so, how many hide checks must he make, when does he make them, and which ones suffer a -20 penalty?

Master Thrower
2011-01-16, 01:55 PM
I think the question being asked is this: suppose he's within 10 feet of a shadow and adjacent to an enemy. Suppose he begins his turn visible. Absent extra actions (Belt of Battle or the like) can he hide and make a full attack? And if so, how many hide checks must he make, when does he make them, and which ones suffer a -20 penalty?

Yes that is a very good summary of my question. So I would need one at a -5 to hide before attacking then after I spring attack it would be a -20 to hide after the attack

Defiant
2011-01-16, 02:03 PM
I think the question being asked is this: suppose he's within 10 feet of a shadow and adjacent to an enemy. Suppose he begins his turn visible. Absent extra actions (Belt of Battle or the like) can he hide and make a full attack? And if so, how many hide checks must he make, when does he make them, and which ones suffer a -20 penalty?

I addressed this question a few posts up, with the extra-long post. Bear in mind that absent extra actions, he cannot use spring-attack and full-attack. [Never mind, it looks to be possible to full-attack with Spring Attack. My explanation still stands.] But to answer your question about full-attack...

I am assuming that by "visible" you mean "the opponent is aware of him". Based on the stipulations you have outlined, that he wishes to make a full-attack and is adjacent to the enemy (let's say the enemy is female):

If he can satisfy (or replace) the requirements for hide - that is, cover/concealment and not being observed - he can make a hide check. So with his first attack, he can hide as part of his attack, at a -20 penalty. This will not affect the current attack, and his attack will go through normally, the opponent retaining their Dex bonus to AC.

The opponent will receive a reactive spot check. If she succeeds, then for the next attack, she will still retain her Dex bonus to AC.

If she fails, then she will be denied her Dex bonus to AC. When he attacks again, he must still make a hide check as part of his attack (at a -20 penalty) to remain hidden. However, the opponent will not get another reactive spot check - the spot something you failed to spot before, you have to use a standard action (i.e. on her turn).

So technically, once he's successfully hidden, he can continue attacking while hiding, though the actual hide check he gets is irrelevant. While his opponent is unaware of him, she will be denied her Dex bonus to AC (bear in mind that this is the prerequisite for sneak attack and the like).

In the end, once that has happened, the only hide check that is truly important (as in you want a high number) is the last one, as part of the last attack (still at a -20 penalty). That's because the opponent may try a standard-action spot check to notice him. Alternatively, she could just move away, and hope for a successful reactive spot check when he moves towards her (and when he makes his first attack).

Defiant
2011-01-16, 02:07 PM
Yes that is a very good summary of my question. So I would need one at a -5 to hide before attacking

If the distance to close in to your opponent is greater than half your speed, then hiding as part of this movement will incur the -5 penalty.


then after I spring attack it would be a -20 to hide after the attack

You do not hide after the attack, technically you hide during an attack (since hiding is done as part of the attack, not a separate action in itself).

Hiding while attacking will incur a -20 penalty, and if you succeed, then your next attack will deny your opponent their Dex bonus to AC.


Again, all of this is assuming you're satisfying/replacing the requirements for cover/concealment and not being observed.

Defiant
2011-01-16, 11:38 PM
Correction: trying to spot something you failed to notice previously is a move action, not a standard action as I've said above.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-16, 11:59 PM
then after I spring attack it would be a -20 to hide after the attack
Just to give Defiant a break here, let me elaborate. With Spring Attack you're splitting a move action around an attack action. You're allowed to (try to) Hide while moving or attacking. Making such checks is easier (no or -5 penalty) when you move than when you attack (-20 penalty), so you would want to Hide each time you move. If you happened to be making a full attack you would also want to try to Hide with each swing, because success there will give you +2 to hit and deny your opponent their DEX bonus to AC on your next swing. As you Spring away you'll Hide (-5 or no penalty to the check depending on your speed) again as you move to your destination spot.

The important point, as Defiant mentioned, is that you Hide as part of some other action. If you succeed on a Hide check while attacking then that swing benefits (+2 to hit, target denied DEX to AC) plus you're hidden up until you do something that foes could react to with a new Spot check. If you were already hidden (while moving or on a previous attack) your next blow would benefit (+2 to hit, target denied DEX to AC) regardless of whether you succeed or fail on the Hide check piggy-backed on that swing. You could benefit from being hidden on every one of a full attack of 3 swings if you at minimum

succeeded on your movement Hide check on the way; and
succeeded on your Hide check with your second attack.