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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Stunning Fist feats



Lateral
2011-01-16, 11:01 PM
How balanced is the Stunning Fist feat? Does it suck, or is it okay? What about the related feats (Fiery Fist, Ki Blast, etc.) Which ones are bad and which are decent? (I know Ki Blast stinks.) I'm asking because I was thinking of fixing them, but I need to know which ones need fixing.

Bang!
2011-01-17, 02:41 AM
Most of the Stunning Fist feats are pretty bad - extra damage a piddling number of times per day. Freezing the Lifeblood from CW is the one that's actually worthwhile; it tags a multi-round paralysis effect onto targets (though it's pretty limited in what it can affect). Weakening touch (also CW) doesn't completely suck.

Stunning fist itself has a nice effect, but its uses per day are pretty sad. It might sound excessive, but I think it would be reasonable in certain games to turn its uses/day into uses/encounter. You'd have level 20 Monks attempting to tag 20 disabling effects per encounter, which really doesn't sound bad, considering that any caster can do similar (and do it faster) from about level 8 onward.

Stunning Fist feats could also use some variation w/r/t the defenses it targets and the immunities it allows. Almost all SF feats target Fortitude and can't affect targets invulnerable to criticals; expanding its use further would be a nice thing.

Rasman
2011-01-17, 05:40 AM
Sadly, Stunning Fist feats aren't that Stunning. There IS one out of Sandstorm, Pharaoh's Fist I believe that, when you stun something, you can stun ANY creature adjacent to it. So one stun and multiple Targets is ALWAYS awesome, but they do get saves too...

At low levels, Stunning Fist is nice, but once your DM starts throwing Big and Ugly at you, AKA I have HUGH Fort Saves, it loses it's luster.

It's a shame your aren't playing Pathfinder, otherwise you could take the Alt Class Feature out of the Advanced Players Guide, Monk of the 4 Winds, and get Elemental Fist which lets you do extra Elemental Damage with your Attacks in place of Stunning Fist. The Damage also scales with level, so you end up dealing massive amounts of damage and things with Energy Weaknesses don't scare you as much.

Lateral
2011-01-17, 09:11 AM
So, should I ramp up the save DCs and maybe modify the uses to per encounter. That doesn't seem too excessive if you're playing with ToB characters, who can get similar effects.

Any other ideas?

Rasman
2011-01-17, 04:34 PM
there ARE feats that just ramp up the DC, you can actually use Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) to add to it too, but there are others

I don't really think you need it to be a "per encounter" thing, but I don't see anything wrong with that either

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 04:38 PM
Hmmmm, Freezing the Lifeblood turns your Stunning Fist into a paralysis effect...does that mean you can take Improved Paralysis (Libris Mortis) for a +4 to your stunning DC? Stack that with Ability Focus for +6 DC for 2 feats.

Not shabby...

ericgrau
2011-01-17, 04:46 PM
Average monster fort saves scale at 1 per level. NPC fort saves scale at 0.5-0.75 per level. Anyone using the feat must put strength first and wisdom second, meaning it scales at maybe +0.7 (0.5+wis mod) per level. So it's good on humanoids or anything else with class levels and monsters with low fort saves but lousy on your average beasty. You also need to remember that it's a non-action to activate, and action economy is huge in D&D. No action to prevent a target's action for a mere feat? Sign me up. Even if it only worked 1/4 of the time that's great. I think it might get flack because people forget about action economy, and don't realize how borked it would be if it did trigger most rounds like they want.

Oddly enough it's a phenomenal feat for a cleric wielding a ki focus weapon too, though they get less uses per day. Given that you can only use it once per round I don't see how a monk runs out past level 10.

So IMO it's a great feat in that it works well for certain builds and in certain campaigns, but it's not for everyone. That's about where a feat should be. Any feat that appears in every build is probably too strong. If you wanted to beef it up a little then getting it to scale at 1 per level (~0.75-0.8 per level before adding an ability modifier) would be the upper limit. At 1 per level or more it gets very good against most foes and gets a bit OP compared to anything that isn't also borked. So if you wanted it to see more play you might try DC = 10 + 2/3 level + wisdom modifier. Or DC 12 + etc. to give it a better start as well.

nedz
2011-01-17, 05:26 PM
Oddly enough it's a phenomenal feat for a cleric wielding a ki focus weapon too, though they get less uses per day. Given that you can only use it once per round I don't see how a monk runs out past level 10.

This is how:
Rapid Stunning (CWar p104)
Burn through your uses even faster, and more chance of it like working.

Pain Touch (CWar p103) is not too shabby.
When the stun does work they are also Nauseated for 1.
But a stunned target should be a dead one already.

Extra Stunning (CWar p98)
+3 uses - probably better for your cleric build.

But yeah, if you must play a Monk there are better feats out there.

Bang!
2011-01-17, 05:46 PM
I think it might get flack because people forget about action economy, and don't realize how borked it would be if it did trigger most rounds like they want.
Casters toss multi-round multi-target disables from level 1 with flexibility in targets. This level of borkedness is a given in all but the most restricted games.

Given that you can only use it once per round I don't see how a monk runs out past level 10.
There's a limit to how many stuns you attempt, not on how many you use.
That means you can stun one target, pain touch a second and freeze the lifeblood of a third.

Thurbane
2011-01-17, 08:22 PM
This is all of the Stunning Fist feats I could find:

Axiomatic Strike
Choke Hold
Extra Stunning
Falling Star Strike
Falling Sun Attack
Fiery Fist
Fiery Ki Defense
Fist of the Heavens
Fists of Iron
Freezing the Lifeblood
Improved Stunning Fist
Ki Blast
Mind-Shattering Strike
Pain Touch
Paralyzing Fists
Rapid Stunning
Rattlesnake Strike
Righteous Strike
Sapphire Fist
Serpent Fang
Unbalancing Strike
Vorpal Strike
Water Splitting Stone
Weakening Touch

AslanCross
2011-01-17, 10:13 PM
So, should I ramp up the save DCs and maybe modify the uses to per encounter. That doesn't seem too excessive if you're playing with ToB characters, who can get similar effects.

Any other ideas?

If you have ToB, Falling Sun Attack boosts the DCs of both the Stunning Fist and the Setting Sun strike it's used with.