PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] When do you say a character is too independent for a world?



Endarire
2011-01-17, 12:00 AM
Intro
Clerics, Druids, and Wizards present so much individual power it's a wonder why they, eventually, stay around the prime material, or their plane of origin. (Archivists, Artificers, Psions, Wilders, and some other full casters are in this category too.)

What This Post Is Not
There comes a point where a character could become party-independent by covering the roles himself or/and with his minions. I can easily imagine such a scenario.

Specifically, What This Post Is
At what point is a character so self-sufficient that it no longer needs a society?

For example, it doesn't need to trade because it has or can readily produce anything it needs.

Level 9 Wizard Example
Consider a Wizard. At level 9, he can teleport. He can dominate Humanoids he likes. He can bug the gods with contact other plane. He can scry on anyone who hasn't blocked him. He can get Nightmares via lesser planar binding to cast astral projection, rendering him effectively immortal. He may have a loyal undead legion via animate dead. He probably has more spell preps than he'll use in a day.

The standard answers of why said Wizard hasn't taken over is because "There's a bigger fish" or "It isn't fun to play" or "It isn't party-friendly."

Well, yeah. By this point, the most logical reason someone is loyal to this plane is because it's rich in resources, or it's easily to conquer, or it's already yours.

If you go with the notion, "There's a bigger fish!" then that being would need to be more powerful. Logically, how would anyone rise to such a position of power if creatures are paying very careful attention to would-be rivals?

Regarding fun and party-friendliness, this could easily be an NPC. It probably already is.

woodenbandman
2011-01-17, 12:50 AM
remember when wizards took twice as much XP to level up as fighters?

That was fun.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-17, 01:35 AM
Indeed at 9th level a Wizard can do all that. But they still aren't strong enough to reliably crush all the challenges they encounter. And they've still got to watch out for housecats. :smallwink:

But I'd say the general answer is "bigger fish," but not how you're portraying them. The bigger fish are monsters - Efreets, Demons, and other nasty outsiders. After all, if they can contact and bug the gods, then the gods can "contact" the annoying wizard. (Contact in this case meaning squish him with a solar.)

One thing you've got to answer before this can be decided is what level of magic are we looking at here? Forgotten Realms? Greyhawk? Iron Kingdoms?

Bang!
2011-01-17, 01:45 AM
Why do all the casters feel inclined to take over?
Or to leave? That sounds lonely.

Coidzor
2011-01-17, 01:52 AM
Specifically, What This Post Is
At what point is a character so self-sufficient that it no longer needs a society?

Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) X 1 never needs food or drink, and there's some way of making them are immortal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#ageHeightAndWeight). So that frees it from reliance on the majority of the population of a civilization, leaving shelter/safety.

A level 8 Spell to Power Psion has Rope Trick that lasts long enough to be able to have a safe resting place without needing a large group of humanoids around.

A 9th level Nomad has Psionic Teleport in order to get away from anything that it would encounter just traveling around casually.

A first level Warforged X has no need of food or drink or shelter, so the only thing it*needs* from society is safety. So then, for non-casters, one simply has to find at what point the things that one would run into casually going around without looking into trouble would be easily defeated or evaded.


reason someone is loyal to this plane

What? :smallconfused:

Actually, why are you conflating society and world anyway?

bloodtide
2011-01-17, 02:02 AM
The average individual will never be ''too independent''.

Spellcasters are not that powerful.


Remember when you talking about, say attacking a city, that is not a ''15 minuet day'' like they can get with a dungeon adventure.

Also attacking a city breaks the adventure limit. Where 'everything in the world is just the right level to challenge to players. When you do something like attack a city, your going for a Status Que type game. So the Arch wizard of the kingdom won't be a 4th level guy, he will be 20th level. The town guards won't be 0 level mooks. And so forth.

Look at it though the lens of time. Day one year one in your world...some spellcasters nuke the world..all life dies..game over. A god or two rebuilds things..and spellcasters nuke everything again. How long will it be before the gods put in some safe guards?

Toliudar
2011-01-17, 02:06 AM
Your question seems to assume an extremely tippyverse-ish view of psychology. In the real world, someone with a large bank account could isolate themselves, ordering in food and supplies, watching television and cutting themselves off from the world. Almost no one does.

There are lots of characters who could effectively cut themselves off from society. Most druids or rangers. Just about anyone with a ring of sustenance.

In in-game terms, and not just metagame terms, there are lots of reasons why living in isolation, self-imposed exile or as the ruler of a world are less attractive options. Being in charge is NOT inherently fun.

Innis Cabal
2011-01-17, 02:06 AM
The average individual will never be ''too independent''.

Spellcasters are not that powerful.


Remember when you talking about, say attacking a city, that is not a ''15 minuet day'' like they can get with a dungeon adventure.

Also attacking a city breaks the adventure limit. Where 'everything in the world is just the right level to challenge to players. When you do something like attack a city, your going for a Status Que type game. So the Arch wizard of the kingdom won't be a 4th level guy, he will be 20th level. The town guards won't be 0 level mooks. And so forth.

Look at it though the lens of time. Day one year one in your world...some spellcasters nuke the world..all life dies..game over. A god or two rebuilds things..and spellcasters nuke everything again. How long will it be before the gods put in some safe guards?

Why will the Arch Wizard be level 20 when most campaign settings outside FR view 6th or 7th level to be the max for NPCs?

Zaydos
2011-01-17, 02:27 AM
Why will the Arch Wizard be level 20 when most campaign settings outside FR view 6th or 7th level to be the max for NPCs?

They do?

Greyhawk has people who bind gods and a whole list of Epic Level NPCs.
Dark Sun has a good number of characters who have gone beyond 9th level spells and psionic powers (depends on edition exactly how they work).
Eberron has "typical Warden Druid" Lv 6, and "typical Wayfinder Employer" at Lv 8, so 6/7 is definitely not max there either.
Ravenloft has high level vampire wizards, epic vampire warriors, bound beings of deity level power, etc.
Planescape isn't relevant to this and honestly I have nothing for 3.X planescape NPCs.

The 6th level view really went out the window with the start of 3rd edition where it's assumed that in any place where 81+ humans gather there are at least 2 1 in 8 chances that there is a 6th level character with PC class levels and most likely an 8th level commoner.

Now as for why said 9th level character from the OP would stay on the prime material plane:
Dominating people you like means pissing off lots of people and unless a 9th level character is strong enough to perform a "me against the world" stand will just get him in trouble.
If he starts binding nightmares with abandon outsiders will come for him.
The only way for him to get off the plane is via Astral Projection through bound nightmare leaving him with a defenseless body (meaning the outsiders don't even need to directly intervene but just pull a few strings like they are wont to do).
Normally he's limited to 2 of those tricks unless there are several bigger fish around.
The biological impetus to spread his genes.
The desire for actual human interaction. If I had the power to avoid it entirely I definitely wouldn't. If I had the power you're talking about I would be using teleport sure and I'd have to go through the books. I've never thought about non-adventuring life as a 9th level character. I'd do what I could to make my life comfortable, find a girl I loved, settle down and raise a family. Or gathering like minded fellows and plumbing ancient tombs for treasure making the world a safe place to raise a family/obtaining 13th level so I could take my significant other to the Upper Plane of choice and live peacefully ever after there.

HeadlessMermaid
2011-01-17, 02:30 AM
Clerics, Druids, and Wizards present so much individual power it's a wonder why they, eventually, stay around the prime material, or their plane of origin.
Umm... why shouldn't they? What's wrong with the material plane? :smallconfused: Please explain.


At what point is a character so self-sufficient that it no longer needs a society?
What, a powerful but normal character? Without a condition that would require the equivalent of a psychiatrist? Never.

Here's a Bantu saying I like very much: "A human is a human because of other humans." Society, other people, aren't there just for convenience or survival. They are there because people have huge emotional needs that generally can only be satisfied by other people (and perhaps dogs :smalltongue:). Judging what a D&D character would do in terms of power and nothing else is... short-sighted, in my opinion.


For example, it doesn't need to trade because it has or can readily produce anything it needs.
Becoming a hermit has less to do with being able to sustain your body in solitude and much more to do with being able to feel good with yourself in solitude.


The standard answers of why said Wizard hasn't taken over is because "There's a bigger fish" or "It isn't fun to play" or "It isn't party-friendly."
Wait, so the point isn't to migrate to another plane or be independent of society after all, but to conquer the world? Is that what you meant all along? :smallconfused:

Well, the first thing to consider is motive. Why should your wizard be interested in taking over the world? Oh sure, the power, the glory, the sex appeal... but taking over the world means running it. It's a lot of work. A big responsibility. Not everyone's cup of tea, you know.


By this point, the most logical reason someone is loyal to this plane is because it's rich in resources, or it's easily to conquer, or it's already yours.
What does "loyal to the plane" mean this time? Sorry, you lost me. But to cover all the bases:
1) The wizard probably stays in the prime material because he likes it there. Does he need another reason?
2) The wizard probably stays within society because, for all his power, he's still a social animal. He has friends, lovers, relatives, admirers, students - and he needs them around, even if they are less "powerful" than him.
3) The wizard probably doesn't run around conquering worlds because he can't be bothered. He is more interested in his studies. Or his lovers. Or something.

Kaww
2011-01-17, 02:37 AM
Why will the Arch Wizard be level 20 when most campaign settings outside FR view 6th or 7th level to be the max for NPCs?

Maybe he is a "former PC"? What I mean is he is just another adventurer, with a century or two more experience? I think that unless you really trust your PCs they should never be the biggest fish. Also a metallic dragon great wyrm is a great watchman for a good empire. Chromatic one is the tyrant from the neighboring evil kingdom?

Coidzor
2011-01-17, 02:44 AM
I think that unless you really trust your PCs they should never be the biggest fish.

DMG even says so, IIRC.

Zaydos
2011-01-17, 02:49 AM
The funny thing is when I had to end my longest running game prematurely and let my PCs decide what they did after the campaign was supposed to end (where they were effectively the biggest fish) they asked for:

To live with wife and children in their barony.
To rule their ancestral kingdom that they were supposed to reclaim in one of the unfinished plot points.
To be a drunk (and drugged) hermit.


Then again except for my brother I had good reason to trust them to be mature players.

Escheton
2011-01-17, 07:30 AM
The more power you have the more aggro you pull.
So the key is to be surrounded by groups of equal lvl power individuals so you can handle what you pull. Like a adventuring party

Or hide in a larger group of weaker individuals. Like a city.

Or stay weak yourself and stay in relative safety till the city pulls an army, and you need adventuring parties to handle it.

Foryn Gilnith
2011-01-17, 08:10 AM
A level 8 Spell to Power Psion has Rope Trick
What's wrong with Psychoportive Shelter?


Eberron has "typical Warden Druid" Lv 6, and "typical Wayfinder Employer" at Lv 8, so 6/7 is definitely not max there either.
That's just because the writers of stock NPCs, as usual, paid little attention to the actual books. In other books they ignored prerequisites or basic rules of spellcasting; in Eberron they ignored the power level of the campaign. Sixth level is most definitely not a typical Warden Druid (according to the more sensitive breakdown here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a)). It's certainly not uncommon for a Warden Druid to be level 6 or higher, but I doubt the largest druid sect of Khorvaire could subsist primarily on level 6 individuals.

Coidzor
2011-01-17, 09:30 AM
What's wrong with Psychoportive Shelter?

Poor scanning abilities, mostly. :smallredface: Just didn't notice it.

true_shinken
2011-01-17, 10:07 AM
remember when wizards took twice as much XP to level up as fighters?

And 2.5x more than Thieves/Bards. Good times.

Zaydos
2011-01-17, 10:19 AM
remember when wizards took twice as much XP to level up as fighters?

That was fun.

The problem is I don't. I remember when they took 1.25 x to reach 2nd level, and actually less to reach 6th/7th, and then more again to reach 10th+ with it eventually reaching 2x.

Now I do remember when it took ~2x compared to a thief/bard.

And I remember when all elves were super fighter-mages and took 4000 XP to reach level 2.

true_shinken
2011-01-17, 10:28 AM
Now I do remember when it took ~2x compared to a thief/bard.

2.5x
Thief needed 1000xp to level up to 2nd, Wizards needed 2500.

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-17, 10:33 AM
Elan X 1 never needs food or drink, and there's some way of making them immortal. So that frees it from reliance on the majority of the population of a civilization, leaving shelter/safety.


I thought that Elans were immortal from scratch? Have I missed something again?

Coidzor
2011-01-17, 10:36 AM
I thought that Elans were immortal from scratch? Have I missed something again?

...I looked everywhere but the right place in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#ageHeightAndWeight). Somehow completely missed it when I went looking for it, in fact. x.x

Zaydos
2011-01-17, 10:43 AM
2.5x
Thief needed 1000xp to level up to 2nd, Wizards needed 2500.

Ah, I was thinking 2nd edition where it was 1250 for the thief class.

Flickerdart
2011-01-17, 10:52 AM
Becoming a hermit has less to do with being able to sustain your body in solitude and much more to do with being able to feel good with yourself in solitude.
Planar Binding, Lesser for a Succubus whenever you need to feel good. :smallwink:

true_shinken
2011-01-17, 10:54 AM
Planar Binding, Lesser for a Succubus whenever you need to feel good. :smallwink:
And then you die. Didn't you learn from the Nameless One? :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2011-01-17, 11:04 AM
And then you die. Didn't you learn from the Nameless One? :smallbiggrin:
To be fair, he got better.

true_shinken
2011-01-17, 11:10 AM
To be fair, he got better.
But that's his thing, he always gets better.

nedz
2011-01-17, 03:10 PM
Surely an independant character suffers from poor action economy. That certainly happens to most of my NPCs :smallannoyed:
That said T1 NPCs do seem to fare better, I've even had some survive to become recurring villains.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 03:46 PM
Elan/Warforged Psions become totally self-sufficient extremely early on. (Totally - no books, no prayers, no bags of... stuff.)

Warforged moreso, since they can't get sick or poisoned by accidentally tripping over a corpse in the wilderness or whatever.

Keinnicht
2011-01-17, 05:19 PM
Because, contrary to general portrayal, not ever spellcaster is a megalomaniac?

2xMachina
2011-01-18, 04:44 AM
I think even Warforged commoner needs nothing from the society. Don't need food, etc. They even survive being buried. But they do end up insane from boredom/needing purpose though.

If someone make a Warforged component that links them all into a supercomputer, they can go bury themselves, and happily simulate/predict everything in the world.