Karmic Strike or Robilar's?

[dethkruzer]

Okay, so I'm building a character ATM, and I was wondering, which one is better? Robilar's gambit or Karmic strike, I'm looking at which ever is more... let's say survival "efficient"

[Reynard]

Robilar's Gambit if you have some source of miss chance, or are a Martial Adept with Wall of Blades, since the second will mean your AC isn't relevant for an attack, which might be all you need.

[2xMachina]

I hope survival efficient does not mean defensive, cause they aren't very good at that.

Karmic lets you hit back when you get hit.

Robilar's reduces your AC (and takes more damage), but the upside is, if they attempt to hit you, you hit back, regardless. Reqs more BAB though.

[Eldariel]

Robilar's is better for two reasons:
- It doesn't have the feat tax in Dodge (nor require the 13 Int in Expertise).
- It triggers on misses (which, let's face it, you'll want to inflict anyways)

Karmic is only useful 'cause it can be acquired earlier on, and to supplement Robilar's. In the long run, I'd always take Robilar's or Robilar's + Karmic; never Karmic alone (even on characters who qualify 'cause you always want Combat Reflexes on an AoO machine).

[elonin]

Robiliars Gambit and Karmic Strike don't stack. If from nothing else you can't get more than one attack of opportunity from one action.

[Greenish]

If from nothing else you can't get more than one attack of opportunity from one action.Are you sure? I know movement only ever provokes one AoO (per enemy), but is it stated to be a general principle somewhere?

[FMArthur]

Robiliars Gambit and Karmic Strike don't stack. If from nothing else you can't get more than one attack of opportunity from one action.

One opportunity. Each provides its own opportunity, triggered from separate parts of an action.

[Keld Denar]

Karmic Strike also only works against a single foe. If the person you are fighting isn't your Dodge buddy, you don't get to beat on them. Thus, RG works better when facing multiple foes.

KS's only advantage is that theoretically you could learn it as a 1st level human fighter, so it would be a trick that would be available at level 1 or so. RG's +12 BAB requirement is tough for a full BAB class, and even tougher for a partial BAB character like a PsyWar.

[true_shinken]

Jus thought I mention Unleashed Potential's Soulknife has a blade skill that is like Robilar's Gambit, except it only works during total defense. Meaning you get to punish them and they don't get to hit you. oooooh yeah.
Add standard Robilar's Gambit and your total defense will mean 'infinite AC' (well, in melee) because no one with a clue will ever want to swing at you.

[Keld Denar]

That all depends on how hard your hits hurt.

The dragon with 350 HP who does 30 damage per swing isn't probably gonna mind...

[Arbitrarity]

CustServ disagrees with the two stacking.

Which of course implies that they should stack.

Also, if you do stack them, don't forget Elusive Target, so you don't get dropped in a single hit by massive power attack.

[gbprime]

Robilar's.

And by the time you're able to power it up, you should invest in an item of (or a caster buddy with) Displacement and/or strong DR. You'll need it. :smallamused:

[FMArthur]

They would count as specific exceptions to the rule even if they went against the normal rules, which they don't. Or do the two attacks from Double Hit not stack, too?

[Elfin]

Robilar's is my preferred choice, because it doesn't require that you get hit - and more importantly, doesn't have Dodge as a prereq.

[2xMachina]

I believe Robilar triggers on their attack. KS triggers on a hit. Different things.

[Eldariel]

Jus thought I mention Unleashed Potential's Soulknife has a blade skill that is like Robilar's Gambit, except it only works during total defense. Meaning you get to punish them and they don't get to hit you. oooooh yeah.
Add standard Robilar's Gambit and your total defense will mean 'infinite AC' (well, in melee) because no one with a clue will ever want to swing at you.

Yeah; the only issue with that is, if nobody hits you (well, outside ranged attacks and magic), you'll be a sad panda.

[2xMachina]

All Soulknife party. :smallbiggrin: You've got to attack one of them.

[gbprime]

Yeah; the only issue with that is, if nobody hits you (well, outside ranged attacks and magic), you'll be a sad panda.

Yeah, but the basic idea is that the people that run up and try to kill you don't live long enough to tell anyone else not to run up and try to kill you. So Robilars works fight after fight most times. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Yeah, but the basic idea is that the people that run up and try to kill you don't live long enough to tell anyone else not to run up and try to kill you. So Robilars works fight after fight most times. :smalltongue:

...yeah, as long as they're the types that run up and try to kill you. That's a rather big "if" :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Yeah, but the basic idea is that the people that run up and try to kill you don't live long enough to tell anyone else not to run up and try to kill you. So Robilars works fight after fight most times. :smalltongue:Total Defense soulknife vs. blaster - an educational video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE)

[gbprime]

...yeah, as long as they're the types that run up and try to kill you. That's a rather big "if" :smalltongue:

Yeah, most times that will not be the behavior of the guy in charge, but (s)he often employs/enthralls a lot of impetuous melee types. And worst comes to worst... plan B. YOU run up and try to kill THEM. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

Total Defense soulknife vs. blaster - an educational video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE)

He wasn't comparing melee to blasters.

[gbprime]

Total Defense soulknife vs. blaster - an educational video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE)

Best bit of improvised acting EVAR. :smallcool:

[Greenish]

He wasn't comparing melee to blasters.True, he was assuming that the enemy would melee. That can backfire.

[elonin]

One opportunity. Each provides its own opportunity, triggered from separate parts of an action.

Humbly disagree with this. One action and two feats that work differently. KS allows you to attack someone who lands a blow on you while RG is more extensive and allows that counter attack for even trying.

[Pechvarry]

Karmic Strike also only works against a single foe. If the person you are fighting isn't your Dodge buddy, you don't get to beat on them. Thus, RG works better when facing multiple foes.

Karmic Strike does NOT require a dodge target (though it does require the feat sink). It only requires you specify on your turn that you're taking the -4 penalty to your AC in order to make AoOs against anyone who hits you.

Also worthy of note: Karmic strike allows you to make AoOs against anyone who makes a melee touch attack against you as well. Robilar's Gambit only says "anyone who strikes at you". Consult your DM as to what, exactly, this includes.

As for what's better? In general, partial BAB characters will always favor Karmic Strike. But I can't really think of many KS builds that you would call very well optimized. My Weapon Master (who already needed all the feat reqs) and a Decisive Strike Monk build with Defensive Throw (this is what Keld Denar was thinking of, btw) for the misses are about all I can think of.

[Lateral]

Yeah; the only issue with that is, if nobody hits you (well, outside ranged attacks and magic), you'll be a sad panda.

If nobody hits you, you run up to someone and start grinding their health down. They can either counterattack and die quickly, stand there and die slowly, or move, provoke AoOs, and die quickly.

[Godskook]

True, he was assuming that the enemy would melee. That can backfire.

True, however the reverse("the enemy won't melee") *WILL* backfire.

[Eldariel]

If nobody hits you, you run up to someone and start grinding their health down. They can either counterattack and die quickly, stand there and die slowly, or move, provoke AoOs, and die quickly.

Or again, use magic or ranged attacks against you like probably 75% of the opponents will. Or ignore you and focus on the more frightening opponents 'cause you're a Soulknife with defensive setup and thus most likely not nearly as scary offensively as anyone else in the party.

[Greenish]

Humbly disagree with this. One action and two feats that work differently.So two Attacks of opportunity.

RC (page 19) says about multiple attacks of opportunity:
one attack per given opportunity
if target provokes twice, you get two AoO
each provoking act (not action) counts as an opportunity
If you have KS and RG, both attacking you and hitting you are provoking acts.

[dethkruzer]

Wow, i wasn't expect to cause this much conversation, but this helped me choose Robilar's, so thanks everyone.

[gbprime]

Or again, use magic or ranged attacks against you like probably 75% of the opponents will.

That kinda depends on the setting/scenario. Seventy-five percent is not generally true in games I run, for example.


Or ignore you and focus on the more frightening opponents 'cause you're a Soulknife with defensive setup and thus most likely not nearly as scary offensively as anyone else in the party.

No, but anyone who spends their time putting holes in someone's person will likely get the attention of that person. Effectiveness takes a backseat to immenent bloodloss in many cases. :smallbiggrin:

[elonin]

So two Attacks of opportunity.

RC (page 19) says about multiple attacks of opportunity:
one attack per given opportunity
if target provokes twice, you get two AoO
each provoking act (not action) counts as an opportunity
If you have KS and RG, both attacking you and hitting you are provoking acts.

Show me where it is written that swinging and hitting are both actions. KS only works if the opponent swings and is successful with that swings (ie a hit). RG works even if it misses. The clarification exists in the Attack of oppertunity text under combat reflexes.


Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

So you have KS and RG and someone swings at you. RG kicks in. If that strike is a hit KS would kick in but you have already had an attack of opportunity for that action. IF the guy swings at you again and you haven't used all of your attacks of opportunities its another action and could take another attack of opportunity.

[Greenish]

Show me where it is written that swinging and hitting are both actions.Show me where it's written an action can't trigger two attacks of opportunity.

[Edit]: I already asked that once, btw. Anyway, your own quote supports my assertion: This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

[elonin]

So long as one swing = one attack of opportunity then yes we agree. The attack of opportunity already states that one action can only provoke once. This is under the movement clause.

[Greenish]

So long as one swing = one attack of opportunity then yes we agree.If one swing provokes twice, then you get to make two AoO.

The attack of opportunity already states that one action can only provoke once. This is under the movement clause.It states nothing the like. It only says that moving out of threatened square only provokes once per round (even if you spend two move actions to walk around the enemy).

[FMArthur]

So long as one swing = one attack of opportunity then yes we agree. The attack of opportunity already states that one action can only provoke once. This is under the movement clause.

It doesn't mention actions, it mentions opportunities. Opportunities can come from actions but the only limiter is that you can't take advantage of the same opportunity twice. They aren't equivalent and are only related via cause and effect, like scoring a Threat and a Critical are different things. Rules that talk about only criticals don't directly influence how threats work.

EVEN IF YOU WERE RIGHT: Why would the feats not be a specific exception to the rule? If the general rule overrode the specific triggering of a feat, does the Double Hit feat have zero effect?

[elonin]

So where is your justification for getting two attacks of opportunity based on one action. Success is NOT a separate action.

[Greenish]

So where is your justification for getting two attacks of opportunity based on one action.Right there in the AoO rules:
if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity)

[elonin]

That doesn't speak to the same action provoking twice.

[Urpriest]

That doesn't speak to the same action provoking twice.

Where do the rules mention actions?

[FMArthur]

Didn't you know? The results of actions don't stack! Full attack iteratives only serve to improve average damage via overlap. Surely you must know this. I shudder to think of how overpowered melee would be if they could attack more than once.

[Greenish]

That doesn't speak to the same action provoking twice.It doesn't specify, but it says that every provoke can trigger an AoO. If an action provokes twice, it thus allows you to take two AoO.

Your argument is like saying that you have to stand on your head to cast spells, since it doesn't say that you can cast spells while not standing on your head.

You've yet to provide a shred of evidence for your stance, you've just been repeating something which isn't a real rule.

[term1nally s1ck]

elonin, nowhere does it state that you cannot take more than one AoO per action. It merely says one AoO per opportunity.

Karmic makes being hit an opportunity.

Robilar's makes your opponent attacking you an opportunity.

These are separate opportunities.

If you want any more evidence, think about this. If your opponent Full-Attacked you when you had either of these feats, they'd provoke an AoO for each attack.

[AtomicKitKat]

elonin, nowhere does it state that you cannot take more than one AoO per action. It merely says one AoO per opportunity.

Technically, the default assumption is one AoO per round(ie, one AoO per action, then you ran out of AoOs). Only with Combat Reflexes do you break this rule. :smallwink:

[term1nally s1ck]

Well, when the ruletext being quoted in the discussion is the Combat Reflexes ruletext, and when Combat Reflexes is a pre-req for one of these abilities, I tend to assume things.

[AtomicKitKat]

Well, when the ruletext being quoted in the discussion is the Combat Reflexes ruletext, and when Combat Reflexes is a pre-req for one of these abilities, I tend to assume things.

Yeah, I added the winky to show that I was trying to liven up the mood a little.

[nedz]

So two Attacks of opportunity.

RC (page 19) says about multiple attacks of opportunity:
one attack per given opportunity
if target provokes twice, you get two AoO
each provoking act (not action) counts as an opportunity
If you have KS and RG, both attacking you and hitting you are provoking acts.

PH p137-138 agrees with you.