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Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 03:13 PM
I would like some opinions on the viability of this idea. My plan is to be a Wilder with the Educated Wilder ACF, using the Expanded Knowledge feats to gain the PsiWar claw powers. It seems that they would be especially good with Wild Surge.

I also have a few questions about the particulars of the build.

First, at level 3 a Wilder still only knows 1st level powers. Does this mean that Expanded Knowlegde doesn't do anything or can I take a 1st level power, since there are no 0 level powers?

Second, aside from Claws of the Beast and Metaphysical Claw, what powers are worth taking?

Lastly, if I take Mantled Wilder for the Nature mantle, do I have to take all 3 first level powers, even though it would require taking one of them when I could learn a higher level power?

Note: this is separate from the wilder I've been recently posting about/trying to build for a friend.

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 03:24 PM
Claws of the Vampire are really good for a beclawed person. ESPECIALLY since you'll be focusing on increasing the size of your claws. Gaining half base weapon damage isn't bad when you are swinging around 8d6 claws.

CPsi also has another claw spell, 3rd level, IIRC, that slows people you grapple. I dunno if you are going the grapple route, so I'll just leave that out there.

Dunno about the Expanded Learning thing. There are 0th level powers in Secrets of Sarlona, IIRC, or somewhere...otherwise just nab another 1st level power and call it even. Hardly game breaking.

With Mantled Wilder, you are not required to take any or all of the powers. They are simply added to the pool of powers you may select from.

While PrCing into Slayer will cost you Wild Surge ability, it'll get your BAB a little higher. Normally, BAB isn't a great goal for a nat weap wielder, but do keep in mind that Rapid Strike requires a +10 BAB or higher to take, which means you can't lose more than 2 BAB if you want to take it by 12. Also, be a Synad or Elan for the [Aberation] type, also required for Rapid Strike.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 03:39 PM
EK will do nothing for you until you have 2nd-level powers; there are no 0th-level powers in 3.5. The ones Keld is referring to, from SoS, are 1st-level versions of magical cantrips (with their power level slightly buffed to compensate for this in many cases.)


With Mantled Wilder, you are not required to take any or all of the powers. They are simply added to the pool of powers you may select from.

Actually, Mantled Wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) does force you to take the powers from your Mantle before you can take any others. Combined with the fact that you give up Elude Touch, and you can see why it's a very subpar ACF all around.

For powers, that depends on what you want to do. Do you just want to rely on tooth and nail, or mix in some blasting? Any weapons? I honestly think a Psywar (or better yet, Ardent) is better for this concept, but you can pull something off.

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 03:49 PM
Hmmm, I never noticed that about Mantled Wilder...thats...lame.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 04:12 PM
Hmmm, I never noticed that about Mantled Wilder...thats...lame.

It's doubly-jarring because Mantled Warrior, in the same bloody article, does not have that restriction. I'll never understand why WotC hates Wilders as much as they do. :smallannoyed:

(Neither does Mantled Erudite, though of course it wouldn't matter for them anyway.)

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 04:14 PM
Claws of the Vampire seems good. The other claw power that slows on a grapple is Claws of Darkness and it is the same as Claws of the Beast , with a shorter duration and it deals damage as cold damage.

My idea for this character was to create a psionic dragon. I was going to use Dragonborn with the wings option, flyby attack, and claws. My plan was to also take Energy Ray, Energy Bolt, and Energy Arc.


It's doubly-jarring because Mantled Warrior, in the same bloody article, does not have that restriction. I'll never understand why WotC hates Wilders as much as they do. :smallannoyed:

(Neither does Mantled Erudite, though of course it wouldn't matter for them anyway.)

Wilder is to Psion as Sorcerer is to Wizard. You might as well ask why Wizards get everything good.

Draz74
2011-01-17, 04:15 PM
First, at level 3 a Wilder still only knows 1st level powers. Does this mean that Expanded Knowlegde doesn't do anything or can I take a 1st level power, since there are no 0 level powers?
Weird, never noticed that before. :smallconfused:


Second, aside from Claws of the Beast and Metaphysical Claw, what powers are worth taking?
Claws of the Vampire is the main one, as other people have said. Obviously something that lets you move and full attack. And Prevenom is fairly decent, especially if you can find a way (Schism?) to spam it multiple times per battle without wasting actions.


Lastly, if I take Mantled Wilder for the Nature mantle, do I have to take all 3 first level powers, even though it would require taking one of them when I could learn a higher level power?
You can take a 2nd level Natural World power before you have all three 1st-level Natural World powers. But you have to have all three 1st-level powers before you're allowed to take a non-Mantle power of your own selection. (Stupid. I hate this ACF's restrictions.)

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 04:19 PM
Scism will definately be on my to-get list.

I think I'll be skipping Mantled Wilder, though.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 04:25 PM
If you want to get some use out of that first EK, just make sure you take Psychic Reformation as soon as possible. When you reselect your feats, you will be able to manifest higher-level powers, and all your EKs will become useful.

Have you looked at the Diamond Dragon PrC in Dragon Magic? It's a dragon-focused PrC for psions, 8/10 manifesting. It also gives you a bunch of free natural weapons and a breath weapon to boot.

You will lose some EKs, but the abilities of the PrC (wings to fly with, claws and tail for natural attacks) may make up for it.

Bang!
2011-01-17, 04:29 PM
Could you work Hidden Talent into the build in place of the level 3 Expanded Knowledge?
Same results a little earlier plus a few extra PP.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 04:33 PM
Could you work Hidden Talent into the build in place of the level 3 Expanded Knowledge?
Same results a little earlier plus a few extra PP.

I have to agree, there's really no need to take EK at 3. If anything, you should be getting a psicrystal that early (or if you have one already, Psicrystal Containment/Psionic Meditation.)

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 04:53 PM
Hmmm... Hidden Talent at 1 seems infinately better than EK at 3. I'll definately do that.

Are the powers of Diamond Dragon worth the loss of 2 ML when I can gain the same benefits with the Dragonborn Template, some EK's and the various Psi Energy powers? That doesn't seem to be the case, but I'm not experienced enough in psionics to be sure.

Does Psychic Reformation not follow the rules for retraining feats? For example, can I use it to change my 1st level feat into a feat for which I qualified at the time of manifesting, but not while I was 1st level?

Psyren
2011-01-17, 05:13 PM
Are the powers of Diamond Dragon worth the loss of 2 ML when I can gain the same benefits with the Dragonborn Template, some EK's and the various Psi Energy powers? That doesn't seem to be the case, but I'm not experienced enough in psionics to be sure.

I'm not all that versed with Dragonborn tbh, but I missed that you were doing that, so it might very well be that you don't need Diamond Dragon. I will note that you can just dip for 5 levels (getting the claws, breath weapon and sleep/paralysis activated immunity), only losing 1 ML in the process instead of two.


Does Psychic Reformation not follow the rules for retraining feats? For example, can I use it to change my 1st level feat into a feat for which I qualified at the time of manifesting, but not while I was 1st level?

The only limitation is that you must qualify for the new feat(s); it isn't actually "retraining" in the strict PHB2 sense. You pick feats based on what you qualify for currently, not what you qualified for earlier in your career.

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 05:23 PM
The only limitation is that you must qualify for the new feat(s); it isn't actually "retraining" in the strict PHB2 sense. You pick feats based on what you qualify for currently, not what you qualified for earlier in your career.

That's awesome. Is it possible to gain that power, use it to upgrade your feats, and use it to retrain itself? For example, is it possible to learn it at Wilder 8, manifest it for all 8 levels to change feats, then change the power learned at 8th to Freedom of Movement, Psionic?

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 05:26 PM
Power Stones. Its the psionic equivalent of a scroll.

A Power Stone of PR should cost 4x7x25 = 700g. I forget how the xp reqs factor in to the cost, but I think the math is spelled out in the item.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 05:31 PM
You can also pay for an NPC manifestation.

Or just hold onto it - it's a great power, especially when you can use it to retrain your cohorts/party members (they will love you for it.)

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 05:39 PM
You can also pay for an NPC manifestation.

Or just hold onto it - it's a great power, especially when you can use it to retrain your cohorts/party members (they will love you for it.)

My thought was to use it on them (limiting my exp loss to a reasonable amount), then myself. I would proceed to get rid of it and relearn it on level-ups when needed. I would, of course, speak with my DM about this, as it seems like it could drastically increase party power levels.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-17, 05:43 PM
Best part about Psychic Reformation is that it isn't that expensive, meaning that you can manifest it a few times to change some feats, skills or something, look for a random encounter and if it is roughly near your ECL I guess you can recover your XP:smallbiggrin: (note some DM's might frown on this, so I suggest to use with caution)

Psyren
2011-01-17, 05:47 PM
My thought was to use it on them (limiting my exp loss to a reasonable amount), then myself.

XP is a river. Being behind just means you earn more. Feel free to use it on yourself.

If your DM thinks it's overpowered, just ask for a power stone (or three) of it rather than learning it.

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 05:50 PM
I guess the fact that each casting couldn't possibly cost more than 1000 exp does make it rather easy to use for everyone in the party.

So, I think I can get away with Claws of the Beast, Metaphysical Claws, and Claws of the Vampire. Now, are there any feats/powers to complement the claws?

With Flyby Attack, I can dive and manifest in the same round, so anything that would work with this would be nice.

Tetsubo 57
2011-01-17, 06:41 PM
I would recommend taking a look at Psionics Unleashed. It has a some nice options that might interest you. Review on my YouTube channel.

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 06:46 PM
Anything that increases your size, increases the damage of your natural weapons. Expansion gives you up to 2 size increases with augementation. If you have say...3d6 claws, Expanding 2 sizes would make them 4d6 > 6d6 claws. Thats double the damage, plus the reach increase.

Also, bonus movment is ALWAYS good. Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge are both great options for moving more, and getting the most out of your movement. PLC won't work with Flyby Attack, but Hustle would if you needed to close or get further away.

Other combat utility is also useful. Greater Concealing Amorphia is one of the best miss chances available, and a Dim Door or Teleport effect is seldom missed by the group.

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 06:49 PM
I would recommend taking a look at Psionics Unleashed. It has a some nice options that might interest you. Review on my YouTube channel.

I forgot to mention that this is for 3.5, is PF stuff compatible?


Anything that increases your size, increases the damage of your natural weapons. Expansion gives you up to 2 size increases with augementation. If you have say...3d6 claws, Expanding 2 sizes would make them 4d6 > 6d6 claws. Thats double the damage, plus the reach increase.

Also, bonus movment is ALWAYS good. Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge are both great options for moving more, and getting the most out of your movement. PLC won't work with Flyby Attack, but Hustle would if you needed to close or get further away.

Other combat utility is also useful. Greater Concealing Amorphia is one of the best miss chances available, and a Dim Door or Teleport effect is seldom missed by the group.

All excellent ideas. Just wondering, is it possible to take Hidden Talent more than once at level 1 if you have the feats for it?

Psyren
2011-01-17, 07:00 PM
I forgot to mention that this is for 3.5, is PF stuff compatible?

3.5 is compatible with PF, but going the other way is a bit more challenging. And while a lot of PF stuff is very strong, Metamorphosis was severely weakened (just as Polymorph/Wild Shape etc. were), which limits the attractiveness of jumping ship for this build.


Just wondering, is it possible to take Hidden Talent more than once at level 1 if you have the feats for it?

I don't see why not. (Note that you will be ineligible for this feat if you Psychic Reformation it away, so make sure you hang onto it/them.)

What powers have you decided on now, including the ones from EK? That can help us determine what you're missing.

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 09:40 PM
What powers have you decided on now, including the ones from EK? That can help us determine what you're missing.


My first idea is a Dragonborn Whisper Gnome Wilder 13/Diamond Dragon 5/Wilder +2
I will be taking 2 flaws at level 1, and 2 instances of Hidden Talent. I will be taking EK as my 6th level feat.


Level 1
Hidden Talent: Expansion
Hidden Talent: Claws of the Beast
Daze, Psionic

Level 2
Inertial Armor

Level 4
Energy Stun

Level 5
Educated Wilder: Metaphysical Claw

Level 6
EK: Hustle
Energy Bolt

Level 8
Dimension Door, Psionic

Level 9
Educated Wilder: Claws of the Vampire

Level 10
Anticipitory Strike

Level 12
Temporal Acceleration

Level 13
Educated Wilder: Schism

Level 15 (ML 14)
Energy Wave

Level 17 (ML 16)
Bend Reality

Level 19 (ML 18)
Reality Revision

This is what I'm going with so far. I'm not sure about the 8th and 9th level power, so I just went with the psionic wish/miracle analogs; I figur that I can't go wrong with those. I will also be taking Psichic Reformation a few times, then reforming it away.

I have just one question, is there a way to figure out a creature's HD for Psionic Daze, or am I just shooting blindly?

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 11:16 PM
Something that I just realized, Whisper Gnomes are small. That does not work well with Expansion. I would like to make this class a dex-based build since the claws will be able to do large amounts of base damage. If someone can suggest a race the has a Dex bonus (and possibly a Con bonus) that is medium, that would be great.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-17, 11:24 PM
Something that I just realized, Whisper Gnomes are small. That does not work well with Expansion. I would like to make this class a dex-based build since the claws will be able to do large amounts of base damage. If someone can suggest a race the has a Dex bonus (and possibly a Con bonus) that is medium, that would be great.

In 3.5 Con and Dex bonus tend to be mutually exclusive (the only exception I know of is the mentioned whisper gnome).

One option could be a Dragonborn Catfolk (RotW), for the low price of LA +1 you get +2 con, +2 dex and +2 cha... which considering you are a wilder it is just what the doctor ordered.

Draz74
2011-01-17, 11:26 PM
Does the Diamond Dragon ever turn you into a Dragon? Because Rapidstrike is an incredible feat for this type. (Which reminds me, basic question: you have read the original King of Smack build, right? If not, Google it.)

Obvious +Dex Medium race with no Con penalty is Wild Elf. However, just because you don't need high strength to do a lot of damage doesn't mean you should necessarily switch to Dex-based melee fighting. Weapon Finesse is a painful feat tax for a Wilder, and there are probably better ways to boost your AC and Reflex. (Inertial Armor is an amazing power, if you can find a place for that on a Wilder. Best if combined with +1 Padded Armor with lots of cool enhancements like Fortification and Soulfire.)

Psyren
2011-01-17, 11:33 PM
@ your power choice: I would skip Daze. If you're going to claw things to death, why waste actions stunning them first? Plus, mind-affecting compulsions become less and less useful as you gain levels. Instead, buff yourself so you can wade into melee - Take Vigor so you can set up the Share Pain combo with your psicrystal later and shore up your d6 HD. Alternatively, take Synchronicity.


Something that I just realized, Whisper Gnomes are small. That does not work well with Expansion. I would like to make this class a dex-based build since the claws will be able to do large amounts of base damage. If someone can suggest a race the has a Dex bonus (and possibly a Con bonus) that is medium, that would be great.

Xephs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/xeph.htm) get a dex bonus, but like I said I'm not too familiar with Dragonborn (lack of interest) so I don't know precisely what it would do to them.

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 12:26 AM
Dragonborn gives +2 con/-2Dex and some abilities. You lose all original abilities of your race, except stat modifiers and type (you gain the dragonblood subtype).

So, looking at king of smack, I'm thinking that I want to change some previous choices.


- First, I think I can get away with a minimum Cha build, ditching the Dex-based character. If I go for Dragonborn Water Orc I can net +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 to everything else. With magic items I can easily get that 19 Cha by level 20, assuming I assign a mid-level roll (14-ish) to it. My main concern about the Con is that I'm trying to design a character that's more melee-ish than I usually play, but not quite so limited in PP as PsiWar.

- I will change Daze to Vigor. I already plan on taking Inertial Armor

- Now, am I able to take Rapidstrike with Claws of the Beast meeting the natural weapon prereq and dragonblood meeting the racial prereq? If so, I will most likely take 4 levels of Slayer to get it at level 12.

- If I take Slayer, knowing nothing about the upcoming campaign, is there a best choice for favored enemy?

- I tried googling psicrystal guides, to no avail. I'm going to spend some time reading up on them, but what can I do with one?


I realize I'm not quite getting the potential of psionics yet, but I would like to thank everyone for the help so far.

Freylorn
2011-01-18, 01:32 AM
Just to chime in for favored enemy selection (did Slayer grant a FE? I don't recall. It must, if you're asking.) I always go for Undead. They seem to creep up in every campaign at some point or another, just for being so easy to work in.

Definitely the most common single enemy type, in my experience.

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 01:37 AM
Just to chime in for favored enemy selection (did Slayer grant a FE? I don't recall. It must, if you're asking.) I always go for Undead. They seem to creep up in every campaign at some point or another, just for being so easy to work in.

Definitely the most common single enemy type, in my experience.

I do agree with that statement, but for Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) the favored enemy must be psionic. Thank you, though.

Keld Denar
2011-01-18, 01:39 AM
Dragonborn gives you the Dragonblooded subtype, but your type is still whatever it was (in your case, humanoid for orc). You don't qualify for Rapid Strike. Sorry.

Psyren
2011-01-18, 01:40 AM
Ergo, you should go with Elan or Synad (Aberration) and just start out with higher Dex so that you can afford to lose two to the ritual.

By the way... if the only reason you're taking Wilder is to have more PP than a Psywar, why not go with Ardent? That will get you the mantle(s) you want and much greater power choice.

Keld Denar
2011-01-18, 01:44 AM
Dragonwraught Kobold, unfortunately.

Rapid Strike requires Dragon, Aberration, Plant, Magical Beast, or IIRC Elemental subtype. I think there's a +2 LA plant creature, but even full genasi don't have the Elemental type.

EDIT: Ninja delete...not kewl dewd...

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 01:50 AM
Ergo, you should go with Elan or Synad (Aberration) and just start out with higher Dex so that you can afford to lose two to the ritual.

By the way... if the only reason you're taking Wilder is to have more PP than a Psywar, why not go with Ardent? That will get you the mantle(s) you want and much greater power choice.

Synad seems pretty cool. I might just ditch the Dragonborn thing (TBH, I keep looking for an excuse to use it. I'm not entirely sure it's that good). Are there any good special options for Synad, aside from Enhanced Multitask?

EDIT: Sorry for the ninja delete, but Psyren ninja answered the question I hadn't asked yet.

Kobold makes for an interesting psionic character. I'm just afread of the reaction (hopefully unwarranted) that bringing a Dragonwrought Kobold to the table will illicit.

EDIT: EDIT:I think I might be obsessing over a few points to physical stats, when that really shouldn't matter.

Psyren
2011-01-18, 01:55 AM
They're LA 0 aberrations with no stat penalty, who needs options? :smalltongue:

I'm still not sure why Wilder and not Ardent though.

Zaq
2011-01-18, 01:57 AM
All excellent ideas. Just wondering, is it possible to take Hidden Talent more than once at level 1 if you have the feats for it?



I don't see why not. (Note that you will be ineligible for this feat if you Psychic Reformation it away, so make sure you hang onto it/them.)

Point of order: Feats cannot be taken more than once unless they specifically say that they can, and Hidden Talent makes no such provisions. (Which is good, because a level 1 human Psion with two flaws could have four Hidden Talents and another bonus feat besides, which is hilarious and terrifying.)

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 02:02 AM
They're LA 0 aberrations with no stat penalty, who needs options? :smalltongue:

I'm still not sure why Wilder and not Ardent though.

My very limited exposure to psionics. I just received help designing a wilder and I rather liked it. It seems that the 1 hour/level durations benefit most from the Wild Surge while making the stun irrelevant and the feat tax to overcome it unnecessary.

I'm not opposed to Ardent, though. I'll look over the mantles and see if I can put together a grouping that gets me the powers I need. Overchannel can replace Wild Surge, especially since I will be multiclassing into Slayer for Rapid Strike.

If I just go Ardent 10/Slayer 10 I can get 4 Mantles and +17 BAB without worying too much about maximizing Wild Surge.

The more I think about it, the less I actually want to slap Dragonborn on this.

EDIT:

Point of order: Feats cannot be taken more than once unless they specifically say that they can, and Hidden Talent makes no such provisions. (Which is good, because a level 1 human Psion with two flaws could have four Hidden Talents and another bonus feat besides, which is hilarious and terrifying.)
this may be a moot point with Ardent; I apreciate the clarification.

Keld Denar
2011-01-18, 02:11 AM
If you do go Ardent10, make sure you pick up the Dominant Ideal ACF at 10. Not expending your focus when augementing certain powers, and doing it on the cheap is about the best ability you could EVER hope for for any manifester.

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 02:20 AM
If you do go Ardent10, make sure you pick up the Dominant Ideal ACF at 10. Not expending your focus when augementing certain powers, and doing it on the cheap is about the best ability you could EVER hope for for any manifester.

Well, I rather like the Energy Mantle with the Quicken Power feat. I can buff and blast in one round, then Psi Lion's Charge in on the next. I can also use Talented and Overchannel with Quicken. Or is there a better combination?

Also, were any additional mantles printed that are worth knowing about?

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 10:40 AM
So, I'm thinking Energy mantle as one of my mains, taking Dominant Ideal for it. Maybe taking Metapower: Quicken for Energy Bolt. I am going to look up some Ardent Handbooks for ideas on other mantles.

I'll take EK for Claws of the Beast.

EDIT: Are there guidelines for using the Mind's Eye feature Substitute Powers or can I just load up an appropriately themed mantle with all of the PsiWar Claw abilities I want?

For example, can I use the Natural World mantle to get Claws of the Beast, Expansion, Psi Lions Charge, and Claws of the Vampire because all are similar to animals/wildshaping?

EDIT 2: Alright, so I'm planning on taking Energy Mantle with Dominant Ideal, and Natural World Mantle with the substitute powers to be more claw focused. My secondary mantle will most likely be Conflict, taking Weapon Focus (claws). Any thoughts?

MeeposFire
2011-01-18, 11:09 AM
Point of order: Feats cannot be taken more than once unless they specifically say that they can, and Hidden Talent makes no such provisions. (Which is good, because a level 1 human Psion with two flaws could have four Hidden Talents and another bonus feat besides, which is hilarious and terrifying.)

Point of clarification- you can with soulknife with an ACF but outside of that no. Hidden talent is so much cooler than wild talent.

Fouredged Sword
2011-01-18, 12:17 PM
I think there are a whole bunch of incarnum melds out there somewhere that involve dragons, and most of them gratn a natural attack. Consider takeing one with a feat.

Urpriest
2011-01-18, 12:28 PM
I do agree with that statement, but for Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) the favored enemy must be psionic. Thank you, though.

The only reason the SRD Slayer gives you a choice of favored enemy at all is because Illithids are product identity. The class (as printed in the XPH) is actually the Illithid Slayer, and is restricted to favored enemy (illithid).

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 01:02 PM
The only reason the SRD Slayer gives you a choice of favored enemy at all is because Illithids are product identity. The class (as printed in the XPH) is actually the Illithid Slayer, and is restricted to favored enemy (illithid).

Alright, that makes that decision easier. I'll just use the class that is in the book; it makes my life easier.

Psyren
2011-01-18, 02:42 PM
Alright, that makes that decision easier. I'll just use the class that is in the book; it makes my life easier.

I would actually advise against that, unless you have a burning desire to kill a CR 8 creature at level 6. (The SRD Slayer does not have this requirement.)

Elric VIII
2011-01-18, 03:04 PM
I would actually advise against that, unless you have a burning desire to kill a CR 8 creature at level 6. (The SRD Slayer does not have this requirement.)

Good point. That's a very good prerequisite to not have.