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pseudodragon
2011-01-17, 05:02 PM
this is a thread about little tricks to use in a rpg that the GM doesn't expect to make a big diffference, but do.

example: put all of your weapons on some type of sling. then if you are disarmed, or get your hand cut off, you still have it close to you, or if you have to drop it for whatever reason, it is still with you.

BossMuro
2011-01-17, 05:10 PM
When I'm a cleric, I put my holy symbol on everything. My shield, the head of my mace, wands (assuming a sufficiently pointy symbol, like Heironeius) etc in addition to one around my neck and another in my pocket. That way, I can cast spells with my hands full and it's harder to cut off my spellcasting with a sunder.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-17, 05:12 PM
I do the same with my cleric characters, by the way. :smallsmile:

Making sure a character has exactly 5 ranks in Balance doesn't initially seem like it's gonna make much difference, but... :smalleek:

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-17, 08:35 PM
put ranks into sleight of hand, because odds are ten to one that the guards at the gate of the town that doesnt allow weapons are fighters without ranks in search.

Thus, your rogue is still epic.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-17, 08:39 PM
Get a Cleric or Favored Soul to cast Deeper Darkness on your blade. When you draw it from its sheath (a free action while moving) you've got concealment on demand.

Talon Sky
2011-01-17, 08:45 PM
Get a Cleric or Favored Soul to cast Deeper Darkness on your blade. When you draw it from its sheath (a free action while moving) you've got concealment on demand.

That's awesomely genius.

Putting ranks in the Knowledge skills, man. And I mean, not just 5 or so in one or two skills. Smart characters survive longer, especially when they can recognize an ancient tomb or curse, or what's trying to eat them for that matter.

mabriss lethe
2011-01-17, 09:14 PM
Commoners with Handle Animal and Craft: Trapmaking

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-17, 09:17 PM
If you're not a heavily armored character, specify that you're wearing good, impermeable gloves. You now have much less to fear from doorknobs.

EvilJoe15
2011-01-17, 09:23 PM
All my Wizards use Sleeve Blades from C. Scoundrel.

Leaves your hands free for casting, so you can always have a weapon, a wand/staff, and a spell at hand. Also helps if you somehow need to make an AoO.

Urpriest
2011-01-17, 09:24 PM
Put ranks in Forgery. Because the only way to detect a forgery is to have ranks in Forgery, and who ever takes ranks in Forgery?

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-17, 09:25 PM
If you're not a heavily armored character, specify that you're wearing good, impermeable gloves. You now have much less to fear from doorknobs.

+1 I always make it clear that I have good leather gloves on EVERY character, especially rogues. nothing like the GM trapping the trap you are trying to disable, or the lock you are picking... Damn contact poisons!

*shakes fist at sky*

Chilingsworth
2011-01-17, 09:41 PM
Umm... I find prestidigitation extremely useful, but then I'm sure anyone who's done even alittle research knows that.

Also, the spell Amplify is the antidote to a bard's bane -- Silence.

WarKitty
2011-01-17, 09:50 PM
Never underestimate caltrops. Or marbles.

Fitz10019
2011-01-18, 08:26 AM
Get a Cleric or Favored Soul to cast Deeper Darkness on your blade. When you draw it from its sheath (a free action while moving) you've got concealment on demand.

Is it legit to claim that the blade is an object, and not merely part of the larger object, the sword? I would think that the handle of the sword would also emit the spell's effect.

little tricks
Cast Light on a 50' rope, for a light source that's 90'x40' and shapable, if needed. Similarly, soak a rope with oil, because that might come in handy.

Use a wildshaping druid for any and all contraband that needs smuggling.

After an alchemist's fire is burning on a monster, throw ordinary cheap pints of oil on it to keep the fire going. No need to throw another pricey alchemist's fire until it dies, or you miss. [at the DM's discretion]

*.*.*.*
2011-01-18, 09:34 AM
Put ranks in Forgery. Because the only way to detect a forgery is to have ranks in Forgery, and who ever takes ranks in Forgery?

+1

I LOVE that skill

Kuma Da
2011-01-18, 09:42 AM
Take ranks in profession. It's flavorful, everyone can do it, it gets you money, and it can be parlayed into being any skill you want. Seriously.

It's not the most exploitatious thing out there, simply because you shouldn't cheese it or the DM will get pissed at you, but something like profession: hunter can be used for finding traps in the wilderness, setting your own deadfalls, hunting, navigating, the whole barrel of skills that a hunter might be expected to call upon as part of their profession. Some DMs flat out will not allow this, but for those that do, it's one of the few times that fluff and crunch put aside their mutual hostility to each other and make a freaking awesome skill for you to use.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-18, 09:47 AM
Is it legit to claim that the blade is an object, and not merely part of the larger object, the sword? I would think that the handle of the sword would also emit the spell's effect.
If it wouldn't work that way, he could attach a tiny gem etc. to the blade and enchant the gem.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 09:48 AM
Is it legit to claim that the blade is an object, and not merely part of the larger object, the sword? I would think that the handle of the sword would also emit the spell's effect.
To be a stickler about this the procedure is to disassemble your sword and have the spell cast on the blade, then reattach the guard, handle, and grip wrapping. Since D&D is low on details outside of combat actions I figured that level of explanation wasn't necessary. But you're correct in that, if assembled, the sword is one object, just as an assembled door is one object rather than a collection of individual wooden planks. The spell is cast no more frequently than every 5 days. So it's 20 minutes of work about once a week (most of it spent in getting the grip wrap just right) tied in with your usual weapon maintenance (cleaning, sharpening) which D&D doesn't go into specifics about.

The blade will radiate shadowy illumination. The only part of the blade exposed after assembly is inside the sheath (most of the time :smallsmile:).

Darkfire
2011-01-18, 09:51 AM
Get a Cleric or Favored Soul to cast Deeper Darkness on your blade. When you draw it from its sheath (a free action while moving) you've got concealment on demand.


Is it legit to claim that the blade is an object, and not merely part of the larger object, the sword? I would think that the handle of the sword would also emit the spell's effect.

As an alternative, cast it on a strip of cloth then tie/wrap it to an arrow/bolt: drawing ammo is a free action regardless of whether or not you're moving. As long is it's fairly light, you'll also be able to effectively cast the spell at range. Use light instead if you want a flare.

Bag(s) of flour: poor man's Glitterdust and emergency rations (assuming you've got access to water and a fire).

Greenish
2011-01-18, 10:30 AM
Bag(s) of flour: poor man's Glitterdust and emergency rations (assuming you've got access to water and a fire).A slightly less poor man uses Torch Bug Paste. Mainly for the former, but I should think it'd work for the latter in a pinch, too.

Koury
2011-01-18, 10:41 AM
Torch Bug Paste.

*glares evily at Greenish*

I'm watching you...

Ossian
2011-01-18, 10:54 AM
Put ranks in Forgery. Because the only way to detect a forgery is to have ranks in Forgery, and who ever takes ranks in Forgery?

+1

Also, Apparaise, because I am a stingy DM and my players must struggle to make ends meet. I sell high and buy low, and expensive scams are waiting for them at the corner of every market place. maybe the first time you lose 1500 GP on that false credit note or on that "certificate of artistic authenticity" for that wonderful shield of Traldar you won't be too mad (after all, you are an adventurer...) but they add up so quickly, not to mention the damage to the ego.

Ever noticed how rich Europeans MUST haggle for taxi fares in faraway countries because they know they are paying the "foreigner 's price" even though the difference is just an extra 2 or 3 euros? DMs, your players' ego is your best ally :smallbiggrin:

Kansaschaser
2011-01-18, 11:16 AM
Shrink Item

I love getting Shrink Item as a Rogue. It's the easiest way to steal items, assassinate someone, and wreak havoc on a city.

Stealing Items
Object too large to carry, shrink it down and pocket the item.


Assassinate Someone
Get a barrel of wine and shrink it down. After someone drinks the shrunk wine, say the magic word to change it back to normal size. It's very interesting to watch the DM try to figure out how much damage the expansion of wine does to a human body.


Wreak Havoc
Pour oil into a cauldron and light it on fire. Shrink the fire and it's fuel. Stash the piece of paper on someone or in someone's house and wait for the duration to expire. If you are inpatient, you can say the magic word during to return it to normal.

WarKitty
2011-01-18, 11:23 AM
Never underestimate the value of a quarterstaff. It's a cheap, sturdy pole.

Same goes for nets with rope attached. Ours has seen a lot of use as an impromptu stretcher/basket. Usually for hauling animal companions up ladders, but also works on unconscious party members. Add some cloth to haul away large amounts of gold.

rayne_dragon
2011-01-18, 11:32 AM
1. Have some way of remotely manipulating objects; 10' pole, mage hand, etc.

2. Always spend money on the little items that don't seem obviously useful. They're often listed because back when potions and scrolls were less common adventurers found a use for them.

3. Invest in skills that seem contrary to the stereotype of your class.

4. Always consider non-combat related spell/magic items carefully - a lot of times they can be exploited to far more effect than combat enhancing items. Hat of Disguise comes to mind.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 11:54 AM
Assassinate Someone
Get a barrel of wine and shrink it down. After someone drinks the shrunk wine, say the magic word to change it back to normal size. It's very interesting to watch the DM try to figure out how much damage the expansion of wine does to a human body.
As a DM I'd use this as a guideline:
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
There might be some projectile vomiting, but no actual damage.

Wreak Havoc
Pour oil into a cauldron and light it on fire. Shrink the fire and it's fuel. Stash the piece of paper on someone or in someone's house and wait for the duration to expire. If you are inpatient, you can say the magic word during to return it to normal.
I'm sure you mean cloth.
Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. This one might have some use. The expansion won't do any harm, but being in contact with a burning fire is going to hurt.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-18, 12:00 PM
"Cloth-like"

Depending on the ammount of starch used on the cloth, it could be stiff enough to be considered paper.:smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 12:04 PM
A bag of holding and a bottle of air make transport much less painful. Only so much room in the rowboat/flying carpet? Into the bag of holding we go. The party caster isn't high enough caster level to teleport the whole group? Into the bag of holding we go. Only one person has a borrow ability and we need to get into the castle? Into the bag of holding we go. Only the party sneaker can stand a change of getting past the guards without been seen? Into the bag of holding we all go.
Just be sure to sheath or cover all pointy objects and divest oneself of all portable holes.

Ernir
2011-01-18, 12:09 PM
My spellcasters carry no fewer than 5 spell component pouches.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 12:12 PM
A bag of holding and a bottle of air make transport much less painful.
That's still awfully cramped. A Portable Hole is nice and roomy, holds enough air that you'll be OK for a while, and you won't need to worry about being detected as you bump against the sides of a Bag of Holding. Plus with the Bag of Holding + Bottle of Air the guards are going to ask why there's a constant breeze coming out of your Bag. :smalleek:

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-18, 12:19 PM
Pagers.

If your game system has cellphones, have a one-way pager. Why? Because you can't triangulate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking) on a one-way pager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pager#Security). This is important because someday, someone is going to want to track you down.

That's one I learned from Shadowrun :smallcool:

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 12:31 PM
That's still awfully cramped. A Portable Hole is nice and roomy, holds enough air that you'll be OK for a while, and you won't need to worry about being detected as you bump against the sides of a Bag of Holding. Plus with the Bag of Holding + Bottle of Air the guards are going to ask why there's a constant breeze coming out of your Bag. :smalleek:
For short trips, like the teleport, row boating or sneaking for say a minute, you don't need the bottle of air. Also, I don't see how one would be detected by bumping against it. You are in an extra dimensional space, you are not actually in the physical bag itself, you're in a space whose entrance is the mouth of the bag. If the guards don't see the sneaker, they certainly aren't going notice a 'breathing' bag of holding. What you suggest only applies if your trying to use social skills to get past the guards, not stealth skills.
Portable hole would be better all around, but is much more expensive.

"Cloth-like"

Depending on the ammount of starch used on the cloth, it could be stiff enough to be considered paper.
I personally always imagined it to be like a felty material. That's right, I imagine using shrunken items for a flannelgraph.:smallbiggrin:
Hmm, this might be a good murder weapon, shrunken lava above someone's bed.
Heh heh heh.

FMArthur
2011-01-18, 12:37 PM
Wouldn't shrunken wine at least get a person enormously drunk?

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 12:46 PM
Wouldn't shrunken wine at least get a person enormously drunk?
Depends on how much you shrunk then drunk. A whole bottle at once or more would just make one throw up from the sheer sudden volume of liquid.
Hmm, if I build a wizard I am shrinking any lava I find and casting permanency.
Great little contingency plan in case of being swallowed by something without immunity to fire. Pools of acid are another possibility.
Do I have a thing for lava in blanket form? Yes.:smalltongue:

Pink
2011-01-18, 12:56 PM
Depends on how much you shrunk then drunk. A whole bottle at once or more would just make one throw up from the sheer sudden volume of liquid.

Hmmm, only a bottle actually, I'm pretty sure they'd just feel bloated. The human digestive system can hold a fair amount of food and liquid without causing anything to burst.

That being said, shrink down vodka and have them take enough shots and let it loose and you might be able to pull off alcohol poisoning.

...K, these may be player tricks, but I think I'm stealing the shrink alcohol to be a covert assassination method in my next game now.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-18, 12:58 PM
...K, these may be player tricks, but I think I'm stealing the shrink alcohol to be a covert assassination method in my next game now.
I dunno - don't you think the massive amount of catgirl corpses would give you away? :smallconfused:

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 01:05 PM
Hmmm, only a bottle actually, I'm pretty sure they'd just feel bloated. The human digestive system can hold a fair amount of food and liquid without causing anything to burst.

It's not the bursting, it's that the body isn't meant to take that much at once. Ever see someone hurl after drinking a gallon of milk? Same principle.

Pink
2011-01-18, 01:09 PM
It's not the bursting, it's that the body isn't meant to take that much at once. Ever see someone hurl after drinking a gallon of milk? Same principle.

A wine bottle is around .75 litres. That's a far cry from a gallon.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 01:18 PM
A wine bottle is around .75 litres. That's a far cry from a gallon.
Yes, but it is literally all at once, not through the cardia so much at a time.

Gnome Alone
2011-01-18, 01:33 PM
The original idea was shrinking down an entire BARREL of wine to bottle-size, so if someone drank it and it was then expanded back to barrel-size by a really, really messed up individual, I'd guess that it would rupture the stomach and send the target into shock, if not just kill them outright.

In fact, some quick Googlemancy reveals that a standard bottle of wine is 750 ml, which is one-fifth of a gallon, and that there are traditionally 31.5 gallons in a wine barrel, which means that there are 157.5 bottles in a barrel, the duke's guts have exploded and the DM is now arguing that wine barrels in their world are much smaller.

potatocubed
2011-01-18, 01:49 PM
Actually, what would probably happen is a violent expulsion of liquid at both ends. Humans are open systems, after all. Unpleasant for the victim, sure, probably even harmful, but I don't think it would be immediately fatal.

My favourite player trick is to swipe everything that isn't nailed down, then sell it. Those chairs have value, even if only as firewood. The big bad's liquor cabinet? Do you know how much a properly aged bottle of whisky is worth? Fine art, nice furniture, carpets, rugs... when you clean out the dungeon, make sure you clean it right out. Equally, harvest the monsters for skins, spell components, magic item ingredients, whatever. Then kiss goodbye to those silly WBL tables.

I learned this from my players, who variously stole furniture, frescoes, employees, an entire swimming pool, and then capped their achievements by hiring dwarves to strip-mine the dungeon and sell the stone. Most games are just not set up for that kind of greed.

Another trick I learned from them is to always carry some sort of one-shot dimension door item. It's relatively cheap, and can get you out of all sorts of nasty predicaments.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 02:09 PM
I don't see how one would be detected by bumping against it. You are in an extra dimensional space, you are not actually in the physical bag itself
Actually, due to the particular nature of a Bag of Holding, both things are true:
If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. If it were purely extradimensional space then it could hold anything within the volume and weight constraints. But it still behaves like a cloth sack, and objects pushing into it from the inside will affect the outside of the Bag. Sharp objects move cloth until it comes under tension, and only then will they pierce it. So a person's finger will first poke out the cloth, and if the nail is sharp enough will then pierce the material.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 02:29 PM
Actually, due to the particular nature of a Bag of Holding, both things are true: If it were purely extradimensional space then it could hold anything within the volume and weight constraints. But it still behaves like a cloth sack, and objects pushing into it from the inside will affect the outside of the Bag. Sharp objects move cloth until it comes under tension, and only then will they pierce it. So a person's finger will first poke out the cloth, and if the nail is sharp enough will then pierce the material.
It is ruined, as a bag of holding. The mouth lines the entire inside of the bag. Poking it from the outside destroys it as does rupturing it from the inside. Otherwise it's more of a bag of shrinking then a bag of holding.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 02:32 PM
Depends on how much you shrunk then drunk. A whole bottle at once or more would just make one throw up from the sheer sudden volume of liquid.
Hmm, if I build a wizard I am shrinking any lava I find and casting permanency.
Great little contingency plan in case of being swallowed by something without immunity to fire. Pools of acid are another possibility.
Do I have a thing for lava in blanket form? Yes.:smalltongue:

Lava doesn't generate heat to sustain itself. You'd need quintessence or something.


It's not the bursting, it's that the body isn't meant to take that much at once. Ever see someone hurl after drinking a gallon of milk? Same principle.

Milk has certain physiological limits on its consumption that wine doesn't have. So there's a lower chance than physiological certainty for wine.

So, no, they're not the same principle.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-18, 02:38 PM
Lava doesn't generate heat to sustain itself. You'd need quintessence or something.



Milk has certain physiological limits on its consumption that wine doesn't have. So there's a lower chance than physiological certainty for wine.

So, no, they're not the same principle.

True, but wouldn't turning the shrunk lava into a "cloth-like" item halt the cooling process just as it would halt the "burning" process of a fire and it's fuel?


Hmmm, only a bottle actually, I'm pretty sure they'd just feel bloated. The human digestive system can hold a fair amount of food and liquid without causing anything to burst.

That being said, shrink down vodka and have them take enough shots and let it loose and you might be able to pull off alcohol poisoning.

...K, these may be player tricks, but I think I'm stealing the shrink alcohol to be a covert assassination method in my next game now.

I remember in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons there was a Psionic power called Compression. It allowed you to compress an object. One of the examples they gave was compressed water. You could then pore it down a crack in stone and the expansion of the water would cause the stone to burst open. They even stated that a creature that drank the compressed water would suffer massive damage as the fluid expanded back to normal size. The only problem was that the compressed fluid weighed the same as the original mass, so a barrel of water compressed would still weigh several hundred pounds, therefore most creatures would not willingly drink said water.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 02:56 PM
Lava doesn't generate heat to sustain itself. You'd need quintessence or something.

Oh, I know the blanket of lava won't kill them by itself, but a bright orange blanket that might not radiate magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm)isn't terribly suspicious.



Milk has certain physiological limits on its consumption that wine doesn't have. So there's a lower chance than physiological certainty for wine.

So, no, they're not the same principle.
You basically have a bomb go off in your stomach and you tell me you won't puke. The same thing can happen, especially to the untrained of drinking to much at once. OK, so I don't know for certain this would happen, after all any liquid must go through the oesophagus, but people can puke (and I am not talking water intoxication here) from drinking too much water. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9u0Y9RzB44)
It was more then then a bottle of wine, but again, it wasn't in a single instant.

Combat Reflexes
2011-01-18, 03:05 PM
If you're a bard, you can according to RAW inspire courage/competence/greatness with any Perform skill. That means you can increase damage by cracking a joke (perform: comedy) or use the awesome power of pantomime to grant allies +2 HD :smalltongue:

FMArthur
2011-01-18, 03:16 PM
I'm starting to think the whole "shrunk wine" deal is going to be a wash. People checking for poison will check for magic and Shrink Item, not just offensive magic, will still ping. People not checking such things could just be poisoned more simply.

Maybe less hilariously.

WarKitty
2011-01-18, 03:28 PM
Of course, I can see some kids deciding that shrunk alcohol is a great idea for a party drink.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-18, 03:33 PM
I'm starting to think the whole "shrunk wine" deal is going to be a wash. People checking for poison will check for magic and Shrink Item, not just offensive magic, will still ping. People not checking such things could just be poisoned more simply.

Maybe less hilariously.

The most I see people do is cast "Purify Food & Drink" or "Detect Poison". Shrunk wine would not show up as either unless you determine that wine is a poison itself since it contains alcahol.

I suppose as a Rogue, you could use shrunk poison on your weapons to apply 30-45 doses with a single weapon. It's kind of expensive, so I like the wine poison much better.

Step 1 - Use your Eternal Wand of Shrink Item on 45 doses of injury poison.
Step 2 - Apply as one single dose of injury poison to your weapon.
Step 3 - Strike enemy and as a free action, say the magic word to return the 45 doses to their original size.
Step 4 - Watch enemy die a horride violent death.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 03:41 PM
The most I see people do is cast "Purify Food & Drink" or "Detect Poison". Shrunk wine would not show up as either unless you determine that wine is a poison itself since it contains alcahol.

I suppose as a Rogue, you could use shrunk poison on your weapons to apply 30-45 doses with a single weapon. It's kind of expensive, so I like the wine poison much better.

Step 1 - Use your Eternal Wand of Shrink Item on 45 doses of injury poison.
Step 2 - Apply as one single dose of injury poison to your weapon.
Step 3 - Strike enemy and as a free action, say the magic word to return the 45 doses to their original size.
Step 4 - Watch enemy die a horride violent death.
If you're mage/rogue cross, like the Pathfinder Arcane Trickster, you could use Minor Creation to make 45 doses of Black Lotus, shrink it, apply THAT to your weapon, THEN say the magic word.
You gotta roll a 1 some time, Mr. DM.
Then try to make that DC 400 reflex save as rocks fall on you.
Only you.
Outside.
In Real Life.
Repeatedly.

FMArthur
2011-01-18, 03:45 PM
Actually, wait... I think alcohol being a toxic ingredient might actually make Purify Food and Drink and Detect Poison pretty useless on wine, which will get ruined by one and ping as poison to the other.

Maybe there's some way to work with this. But not with magic, since Detect Magic is now the better failsafe to protect the king's goblet or whatever. But poisons! How do you think the king has this taken care of, and how might we exploit that? :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 04:02 PM
Actually, wait... I think alcohol being a toxic ingredient might actually make Purify Food and Drink and Detect Poison pretty useless on wine, which will get ruined by one and ping as poison to the other.

It makes some sense, but at the same time, it doesn't .By RAW, common drinking alcohol is not a poison to the best of my knowledge. And if you're going to bring up real world logic, oxygen is also a poison above certain concentrations. So is water. Does that mean PFaD purifies water . . .of the water?:smallconfused: Magic is generally 'smarter' then this. That being said, alcohol above 200 proof and in lethal amounts would ping by my judgement.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 04:08 PM
I believe it's optional rules, possibly from AE&G, that peg alcohol as a poison.

Water is lethal after a certain point, but not really a poison from what I understand of its effects.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 04:16 PM
I believe it's optional rules, possibly from AE&G, that peg alcohol as a poison.

Water is lethal after a certain point, but not really a poison from what I understand of its effects.
Well, different poisons work by different means. And water as a poison works by unbalancing your electrolytes.
I don't have that book, so I can't say. I know Pathfinder pegs it as a drug, but I don't think that counts as a poison.

Jayabalard
2011-01-18, 04:43 PM
It's not the bursting, it's that the body isn't meant to take that much at once. Ever see someone hurl after drinking a gallon of milk? Same principle.it's not really the same principle. The milk challenge causes people to hurl primarily because of the amount of lactose, not the volume; even people who aren't lactose intolerant can't handle that much of it at once. That's a huge difference.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-18, 04:52 PM
The most I see people do is cast "Purify Food & Drink" or "Detect Poison". Shrunk wine would not show up as either unless you determine that wine is a poison itself since it contains alcahol.

I suppose as a Rogue, you could use shrunk poison on your weapons to apply 30-45 doses with a single weapon. It's kind of expensive, so I like the wine poison much better.

Step 1 - Use your Eternal Wand of Shrink Item on 45 doses of injury poison.
Step 2 - Apply as one single dose of injury poison to your weapon.
Step 3 - Strike enemy and as a free action, say the magic word to return the 45 doses to their original size.
Step 4 - Watch enemy die a horride violent death.

You, sir, are a genius. If you have the time to prep it, do the same with an archer and rapid/many shot/improved many shot or TWF/Improved TWF. If you mix it with a spell storing weapon that has a save or suck spell for Con or Fort saves you are looking at one good time.

Jayabalard
2011-01-18, 05:20 PM
+1 I always make it clear that I have good leather gloves on EVERY character, especially rogues. nothing like the GM trapping the trap you are trying to disable, or the lock you are picking... Damn contact poisons!

*shakes fist at sky*Have you ever tried to do anything finicky with leather gloves? I mean, opening a door with the key can be tricky if they're thick enough to be impermeable, let alone doing it with lockpicks.


The most I see people do is cast "Purify Food & Drink" or "Detect Poison". Shrunk wine would not show up as either unless you determine that wine is a poison itself since it contains alcahol.

I suppose as a Rogue, you could use shrunk poison on your weapons to apply 30-45 doses with a single weapon. It's kind of expensive, so I like the wine poison much better.

Step 1 - Use your Eternal Wand of Shrink Item on 45 doses of injury poison.
Step 2 - Apply as one single dose of injury poison to your weapon.
Step 3 - Strike enemy and as a free action, say the magic word to return the 45 doses to their original size.
Step 4 - Watch enemy die a horride violent death.By the rules, alchohol is a poison (this is exploted in one of the beardfist builds, where he gains health back after saving vs poison, ie, the beer he's drinking)

This doesn't really make any sense... step 2 & 3 (and as a result 4) all seem to be less than valid. What rule are you using that would would allow you to apply those 45 doses as a single dose? And even if you did, what rule are using that says that he'd be affected by more than one of those doses? I mean, contact poisons don't specify at all how much you get on you, just that you come into contact at all.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-18, 05:22 PM
it's not really the same principle. The milk challenge causes people to hurl primarily because of the amount of lactose, not the volume; even people who aren't lactose intolerant can't handle that much of it at once. That's a huge difference.
OK water then, as I linked to in a later post. Maybe the milk isn't the same principle, but water is.

Ytaker
2011-01-18, 05:30 PM
It makes some sense, but at the same time, it doesn't .By RAW, common drinking alcohol is not a poison to the best of my knowledge. And if you're going to bring up real world logic, oxygen is also a poison above certain concentrations. So is water. Does that mean PFaD purifies water . . .of the water?:smallconfused: Magic is generally 'smarter' then this. That being said, alcohol above 200 proof and in lethal amounts would ping by my judgement.

Beer contains direct toxins, like acetaldehyde, methanol. That's why you get a hangover. Water isn't directly toxic to you in small concentrations. Alcohol isn't especially toxic in small concentrations. If you purified alcohol you might just get the perfect beer.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-18, 05:31 PM
Have you ever tried to do anything finicky with leather gloves? I mean, opening a door with the key can be tricky if they're thick enough to be impermeable, let alone doing it with lockpicks.

By the rules, alchohol is a poison (this is exploted in one of the beardfist builds, where he gains health back after saving vs poison, ie, the beer he's drinking)

This doesn't really make any sense... step 2 & 3 (and as a result 4) all seem to be less than valid. What rule are you using that would would allow you to apply those 45 doses as a single dose? And even if you did, what rule are using that says that he'd be affected by more than one of those doses? I mean, contact poisons don't specify at all how much you get on you, just that you come into contact at all.


The Shrink Item spell reduces the object by 1/4000th it's original volume and mass. I guess you could apply up to 4,000 doses of poison if they are shrunk. That is unrealistically expensive though. So, I just chose 45 doses since that seemed more plausible.

You are absolutly right on one point. The Dungeon Master/Gamer Master may rule that they only get poisoned by a few of the doses. He/she may even rule that even though you have applied 45 doses, that they only have to make one save for the entire attack. So it may not work for everyone.

Urpriest
2011-01-18, 05:34 PM
Well, different poisons work by different means. And water as a poison works by unbalancing your electrolytes.
I don't have that book, so I can't say. I know Pathfinder pegs it as a drug, but I don't think that counts as a poison.

I believe that in 3.5 drugs are explicitly poisons, though I may be misremembering.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 05:43 PM
The Shrink Item spell reduces the object by 1/4000th it's original volume and mass. I guess you could apply up to 4,000 doses of poison if they are shrunk. That is unrealistically expensive though.
Poison won't have any effect if you reduce the volume below the 1 dose quantity, so you'd better start saving up for those 4,096 doses. :smallbiggrin:

From Dungeon Master's Guide, page 296:

One dose of poison smeared on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target. ...
It is not possible to use or apply poison in any quantity smaller than one dose.

FMArthur
2011-01-18, 06:16 PM
It seems like you can just apply poison after poison to the blade, regardless of size though. Applying a million doses of the same poison might not stack according to many DMs, though. I doubt that one of every type of poison is so easy to adjudicate. :smallamused:

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 06:42 PM
It seems like you can just apply poison after poison to the blade, regardless of size though.
Nope; that's covered in the rules.
A poisoned weapon or object retains its venom until the weapon scores a hit or the object is touched Touching the blade to apply more poison nullifies any existing poison.

Qwertystop
2011-01-18, 07:02 PM
I do the same with my cleric characters, by the way. :smallsmile:

Making sure a character has exactly 5 ranks in Balance doesn't initially seem like it's gonna make much difference, but... :smalleek:

Why 5 ranks specifically? What makes that better than maxing Balance (Assuming you have the skillpoints for it)?

Private-Prinny
2011-01-18, 07:09 PM
Why 5 ranks specifically? What makes that better than maxing Balance (Assuming you have the skillpoints for it)?

5 ranks are required to not be flat-footed while balancing. This applies to things like Grease spells, which force a balance check.

deuxhero
2011-01-18, 07:21 PM
Beer contains direct toxins, like acetaldehyde, methanol. That's why you get a hangover. Water isn't directly toxic to you in small concentrations. Alcohol isn't especially toxic in small concentrations. If you purified alcohol you might just get the perfect beer.

Yes, just as nasty, foul smelling/tasting as normal beer, but without the alcohol. Perfect indeed.

...

Gnome Alone
2011-01-18, 07:57 PM
Yes, just as nasty, foul smelling/tasting as normal beer, but without the alcohol. Perfect indeed.

...

Methinks you're drinking the wrong beer.... Cuz, uh, some of it tastes pretty awesome, if it's not American macrobrewed pisswater...

Ytaker
2011-01-18, 07:59 PM
Yes, just as nasty, foul smelling/tasting as normal beer, but without the alcohol. Perfect indeed.

...

The alcohol would stay, the hangover and disgusting tasting elements would be removed. Alcohol isn't that toxic. In fact, its metabolite is the main toxin, and that's only if it's very concentrated.

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 11:05 AM
It makes some sense, but at the same time, it doesn't .By RAW, common drinking alcohol is not a poison to the best of my knowledge. As noted in the build for Fistbeard Beardfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116838), it's identified as a poison in the arms and equipment guide.


Weak ale is a poison that does 1d2 wis and dex damage, fort save to ignore, cumulative penalty. So, by RAW, the alcohol itself is a poison, not just the toxic stuff that gives you a hangover.


The Shrink Item spell reduces the object by 1/4000th it's original volume and mass. I guess you could apply up to 4,000 doses of poison if they are shrunk. That is unrealistically expensive though. So, I just chose 45 doses since that seemed more plausible.It's no more plausible than just declaring that you're going to put multiple doses of the poison on your blade without shrinking it.


Methinks you're drinking the wrong beer.... Cuz, uh, some of it tastes pretty awesome, if it's not American macrobrewed pisswater...ironically, I think all of the "American macrobreweries" are now non-American companies. It seems to be between Sam Adams and Yuengling as to which is currently the largest American brewery. Generally I find Sam Adams listed as the largest, and it's a Craft Brewery rather than a macrobrewery.

So really, you mostly have to avoid foreign macrobrewed pisswater now.

Gandariel
2011-01-19, 11:25 AM
ok.. let's do it this way:
a DOSE of poison is what, let's say 10 drops of poison in a tiny vial
now let's take 4000 doses of poison and Shrink them to 1/4000 of their size.
then put them together in the same vial
Now the vial contains about 10 drops of poison, which is 1 dose.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-19, 11:40 AM
ok.. let's do it this way:
a DOSE of poison is what, let's say 10 drops of poison in a tiny vial
now let's take 4000 doses of poison and Shrink them to 1/4000 of their size.
then put them together in the same vial
Now the vial contains about 10 drops of poison, which is 1 dose.

Yep, but then after you strike your opponent, you say the magic word to return to 4,000 doses to their original size. If someone were to do that in my campaign, I would say most of the poison spewed out of the wound and they only go hit with a max of about 50 doses.

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 11:43 AM
then put them together in the same vialWhat tools are you using to manipulate/open these tiny vials?.

Handling the poison gives you a 5% chance of poisoning yourself; nothing in the description of the poison indicates that shrinking would either reduce this chance or reduce it's effectiveness. The chances of poisoning yourself at least once during that process is almost certainty, ~= 1- 7.8418973911740928904147167779881e-90 ... that is
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999215811%

I could dig into the formulas here (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BinomialDistribution.html) and give a estimate on how to calculate the probability of 100 successfully poisoning yourself out of 4000 tries... but I'm not going to bother and just am just going to go with "really damn likely"


Now the vial contains about 10 drops of poison, which is 1 dose. It contains 40,000 tiny drops of poison, which is 4000 doses.

Coidzor
2011-01-19, 11:45 AM
The Poison Use ability and the feat "Master of Poisons" obviate that 5% chance.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-19, 11:46 AM
That's why you take a level of assassin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm) or some other poison use granting class.
0% x 4000 is still 0.
Edit: Ack, Assassinated!

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 11:54 AM
That's why you take a level of assassin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm) or some other poison use granting class.
0% x 4000 is still 0.
Edit: Ack, Assassinated!Certainly... but if you're taking assassin levels then or specific feats, that would need to be listed as part of the trick (and it hasn't been, at least as far as I saw, though I might have just missed it).

I'm still curious how Gandariel is opening those tiny vials. I mean, they'd be hard to see let alone manipulate in any meaningful way.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-19, 11:57 AM
Certainly... but if you're taking assassin levels then or specific feats, that would need to be listed as part of the trick (and it hasn't been, at least as far as I saw, though I might have just missed it).

I'm still curious how Gandariel is opening those tiny vials. I mean, they'd be hard to see let alone manipulate in any meaningful way.

Hehe, I don't think you shrink the vials down. That would be too difficult.

You take the normal sized vials and pour the poison into a cauldron or some other large storage tank. Then once all 4,000 doses are in the cauldron, then you shrink down the cauldron. It's now a tiny cauldron with 4,000 shrunk doses of injury poison.

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 12:03 PM
Hehe, I don't think you shrink the vials down. That would be too difficult.That's what Gandariel said... it's why I asked that particular question.


You take the normal sized vials and pour the poison into a cauldron or some other large storage tank. Then once all 4,000 doses are in the cauldron, then you shrink down the cauldron. It's now a tiny cauldron with 4,000 shrunk doses of injury poison.Seems a great way to store it, but I don't see any reason why that's not still 4000 doses. Sure, they're small doses, but there's still 4000 of them. It's not any more legitimate to add them all to 1 weapon than it is to add them all to that weapon without bothering with the cauldron and shrinking bit.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-19, 12:14 PM
Seems a great way to store it, but I don't see any reason why that's not still 4000 doses. Sure, they're small doses, but there's still 4000 of them. It's not any more legitimate to add them all to 1 weapon than it is to add them all to that weapon without bothering with the cauldron and shrinking bit.

Again, that would depend on your dungeon master.

If the dungeon master rules that you can only apply 1 dose of poison, no matter how small, then this trick wouldn't work.

If the dungeon master rules that you can only apply 3 drops (assuming one dose is 3 drops) of any one liquid to your weapon, then the shrunk poison trick would work.

It's all very situational depending on your gaming environment and the person running the game. I still personally like shrinking down an alcaholic beverage so they get 4,000 times the alcahol or expanding it back to normal size once they injest it.

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 12:24 PM
Again, that would depend on your dungeon master.If it's effectiveness depends entirely on the GM, then it's not really much of a trick eh?

Kansaschaser
2011-01-19, 12:35 PM
If it's effectiveness depends entirely on the GM, then it's not really much of a trick eh?

Well, you can kind of catch your dungeon master with their foot in their mouth.

If the person running your game determines that you can only apply 1 dose of poison even if it's shrunk, then switch to injestion or contact poison. You don't need to apply injestion or contact poison to a weapon, but each shrunk dose is equally as effective as the normal size dose.

If they say that you can apply 3 drops of "something" to a weapon, then use the shrunk injury poison.

1of3
2011-01-19, 12:38 PM
On how to give all your friends the benefit of Blur with two first level spells, when fighting a single enemy.

Obscuring Mist + Faery Fire

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 01:17 PM
You don't need to apply injestion or contact poison to a weapon, but each shrunk dose is equally as effective as the normal size dose.You're still relying wholely on DM ruling in your favor. I'm not seeing anything that says that touching an item with multiple doses of the same poison affects the person with multiple doses, or that eating something with multiple doses anything different than touching/eating an item with 1 dose.

Example: when it talks about contact poison, you make a saving throw for touching an item treated with a contact poison. I don't see anything like "a saving throw per dose" or even anything referring to doses... just the results of coming into contact with the item treated with the poison.

Likewise, is there actually anything stopping you from adding 4000 doses of an ingestion poison to your target's food/drink, or putting 4000 doses of a contact poison on something when it is unshrunk? I'm not seeing anything that doesn't apply equally when the poison is shrunk.

So I'm still not seeing any advantage of shrinking that isn't dependent on the GM ruling in your favor other than for storage.

Radar
2011-01-19, 01:22 PM
Being tied to other party memebers goes a long way, when you are climbing or expecting lots of pit traps.

The alcohol would stay, the hangover and disgusting tasting elements would be removed. Alcohol isn't that toxic. In fact, its metabolite is the main toxin, and that's only if it's very concentrated.
Umm... acetaldehyde is a leftover product from processing ethanol, so you get it in your blood anyway. Hangover is also about dehydration.

pseudodragon
2011-01-19, 04:41 PM
Handling the poison gives you a 5% chance of poisoning yourself; nothing in the description of the poison indicates that shrinking would either reduce this chance or reduce it's effectiveness. The chances of poisoning yourself at least once during that process is almost certainty, ~= 1- 7.8418973911740928904147167779881e-90 ... that is
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999215811%

if you are one of the new lizardfolk types, you cannot poison yourself, which eliminates this risk, and if you put ranks in craft poison, you can make your own poison

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 04:52 PM
if you are one of the new lizardfolk types, you cannot poison yourself, which eliminates this risk, and if you put ranks in craft poison, you can make your own poisonYou've already been ninja'd ... and I'm not sure which lizardfolk you mean, so I'm not sure you're actually correct. If they a have their own, natural, poison... then iirc they're only immune to their own poison, not every poison.

pseudodragon
2011-01-19, 05:35 PM
You've already been ninja'd ... and I'm not sure which lizardfolk you mean, so I'm not sure you're actually correct. If they a have their own, natural, poison... then iirc they're only immune to their own poison, not every poison.

no, it is the poison dusk lizardfolk from 3.5 in the monster manual 3, not an assasin that i mentioned

werik
2011-01-19, 05:51 PM
Logically to me any shrunk wine would also be ultra condensed making an insanely alcoholic drink that would make the glass of wine too vile for any mere mortal to consume.

For those who doubt that you wouldn't necessarily throw up by drinking a bottle of wine because it's "not the same thing as milk" clearly have never seen the Patron challenge video. It's pretty gross. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31m33PJW7cw&playnext=1&list=PL917F7CD90AFEE39E&index=22)

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 06:01 PM
Logically to me any shrunk wine would also be ultra condensed making an insanely alcoholic drink that would make the glass of wine too vile for any mere mortal to consume. shrink would shrink the water in the wine as well, so it would stay proportionately the same strength

In fact... in the SRD, I don't see any mention of shrink reducing the mass, just the size... so a bottle full of shrunk wine would be incredibly heavy.

a wineglass holds, 6oz of liquid (fluid ounces, but close enough to real weight), so the glass full of shrunk wine would weigh 1536 pounds... that might be a little easy to tell someone had fiddled with it, no?


For those who doubt that you wouldn't necessarily throw up by drinking a bottle of wine because it's "not the same thing as milk" clearly have never seen the Patron challenge video. Patron is tequila; Wine != tequila. Tequila has a much higher alcohol content, so it's going to be much harder to chug a bottle of it without hurling than wine.

I've seen people down a bottle of wine; it's nowhere near as hard on your system as lactose, or even beer (beer is harder because of the carbonation)

Pink
2011-01-19, 06:15 PM
Logically to me any shrunk wine would also be ultra condensed making an insanely alcoholic drink that would make the glass of wine too vile for any mere mortal to consume.

For those who doubt that you wouldn't necessarily throw up by drinking a bottle of wine because it's "not the same thing as milk" clearly have never seen the Patron challenge video. It's pretty gross. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31m33PJW7cw&playnext=1&list=PL917F7CD90AFEE39E&index=22)

and yet, another person (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Ry-kTcfxw&feature=related) does it with ease.

As far as chugging is concerned, I don't think we can use it as a direct comparison to what expansion within the stomach would cause. For chugging, some people might get triggered by taste or simply not have the physical fortitude to do so without throwing up.

Now, for my point again, I'm just saying one bottle of wine should be fine. Two bottles and higher, you're probably reasonably to have it expand out the mouth and what not.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-19, 06:20 PM
In fact... in the SRD, I don't see any mention of shrink reducing the mass, just the size...
It's there, just with one level of indirection.
This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories. If you look at the size categories here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) you'll see that weight is a function of size.

Ytaker
2011-01-19, 06:20 PM
shrink would shrink the water in the wine as well, so it would stay proportionately the same strength

In fact... in the SRD, I don't see any mention of shrink reducing the mass, just the size... so a bottle full of shrunk wine would be incredibly heavy.

a wineglass holds, 6oz of liquid (fluid ounces, but close enough to real weight), so the glass full of shrunk wine would weigh 1536 pounds... that might be a little easy to tell someone had fiddled with it, no?



You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass).

From the SRD.

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 06:44 PM
From the SRD.blah... I must have looked through that a dozen times trying to find something talking mass... not sure how I missed that.

pseudodragon
2011-01-19, 06:45 PM
trick: make your character have been in the airborne, and you can get down around 10 feet with minimal injuries, or at least get less injury than if he wasn't.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-19, 10:26 PM
shrink would shrink the water in the wine as well, so it would stay proportionately the same strength

In fact... in the SRD, I don't see any mention of shrink reducing the mass, just the size... so a bottle full of shrunk wine would be incredibly heavy.

It states in the spell that the volume and mass are both reduced. Every magic item based on the spell Shrink Item also state that that the weight of the item gets reduced. It's pretty safe to say that the weight of the item is proportional to the new volume and mass.

Brendan
2011-01-19, 11:14 PM
maybe get pure alcohol, a gallon or so, and put it in non-alcoholic wine. shrink just the alcohol beforehand (the drink would have a pretty low content at first, and I think it wouldn't ping as a poison as it has an alcohol content of like 1%. so they drink it and then you say the magic word. ouch.

hereyago
2011-01-20, 12:56 PM
On the subject of the shrink item trick: Forgive me if I've misunderstood some part of the trick or am simply ignorant of some reason this wouldn't work, but... why don't we just avoid the whole question of whether the liquid would, er, find egress, shall we say, and shrink a solid? Say, shrink a greatsword down and put it in a cookie. (Who can resist a cookie?) I'm pretty sure that a greatsword suddenly expanding to full size in your stomach (or anywhere in your digestive tract really) would kill you. Or at least to MASSIVE damage.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-20, 01:17 PM
On the subject of the shrink item trick: Forgive me if I've misunderstood some part of the trick or am simply ignorant of some reason this wouldn't work, but... why don't we just avoid the whole question of whether the liquid would, er, find egress, shall we say, and shrink a solid? Say, shrink a greatsword down and put it in a cookie. (Who can resist a cookie?) I'm pretty sure that a greatsword suddenly expanding to full size in your stomach (or anywhere in your digestive tract really) would kill you. Or at least to MASSIVE damage.

The Shrink Item spell reduces the item by 4 size categories.

A medium sized sword would shrink to less than diminutive.

Medium to Small, then Small to Tiny, then Tiny to Diminutive, then Diminutive to... um, microscopic?

Like all uses of the Shrink Item spell, once an object and/or liquid is injested, it's entirely up to the person running the game to decide if and how damage is applied.

If I were to shrink weapons, I would take a Colossal sized weapon and shrink it down to medium size. For example, a colossal arrow shrunk down to medium size. Then shoot the arrow at someone. If you strike your target, then say the magic word to make the arrow expand back up to the size of a ballista while inside the target. Finally, watch your Dungeon Master's face scrunch up while trying to figure out how much extra damage the target would take.

Jayabalard
2011-01-20, 01:25 PM
maybe get pure alcohol, a gallon or so, and put it in non-alcoholic wine. shrink just the alcohol beforehand (the drink would have a pretty low content at first, and I think it wouldn't ping as a poison as it has an alcohol content of like 1%. so they drink it and then you say the magic word. ouch.Just a note: getting pure alcohol is hard; you could do it via magic, but probably not by ordinary non-magical distillation.

even with a low alcohol content, I'd expect it to ping as a poison.


On the subject of the shrink item trick: Forgive me if I've misunderstood some part of the trick or am simply ignorant of some reason this wouldn't work, but... why don't we just avoid the whole question of whether the liquid would, er, find egress, shall we say, and shrink a solid? Say, shrink a greatsword down and put it in a cookie. (Who can resist a cookie?) I'm pretty sure that a greatsword suddenly expanding to full size in your stomach (or anywhere in your digestive tract really) would kill you. Or at least to MASSIVE damage.Earlier in the thread, someone posted this:

Enlarge Person
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.So if you follow the intent from this when you rule what happens, this you wouldn't be able to do damage this way.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-20, 01:26 PM
Fine is even smaller than Diminutive, and its size varies between an eraser and a mobile phone (as opposed to Diminutive, which is about the size of a dessert plate)

Kansaschaser
2011-01-20, 01:35 PM
So if you follow the intent from this when you rule what happens, this you wouldn't be able to do damage this way.

That's for the Enlarge Person spell. No where in the Shrink Item spell does it state that the item will stop growing if there is insufficient room. Since it states that, the object with less hardness will be the one that takes damage.

Jayabalard
2011-01-20, 01:42 PM
That's for the Enlarge Person spell. No where in the Shrink Item spell does it state that the item will stop growing if there is insufficient room. Since it states that, the object with less hardness will be the one that takes damage.By that logic, nowhere in the shrink spell does it say that it can ever deal damage, even if it is contained inside something too small for it... so enlarging the sword just enlarges it without dealing any damage.

Now, if you want to move into the real of interpreting "what should happen, even though it's not explicitly covered by the rules" then it's relevant to look at what happens when you magically enlarge something (ie, reverse a shrink item spell). So it's reasonable to expect that a DM may reference the text of enlarge person.

aquaticrna
2011-01-20, 02:05 PM
trick that i got from a friend of mine: get a diminutive bag of holding, and a diminutive portable hole, craft them into a glass arrowhead in such a manner than upon striking something it will force one into the other. Instant fight ender.

Coidzor
2011-01-20, 02:24 PM
trick that i got from a friend of mine: get a diminutive bag of holding, and a diminutive portable hole, craft them into a glass arrowhead in such a manner than upon striking something it will force one into the other. Instant fight ender.

There's actually a diagram/schematic of that which has been demotivational poster'd to have something about engineers and D&D.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-20, 02:24 PM
Vorpal bag of holding.
Stick it over the baddies head and pop goes the weasel.
.

FMArthur
2011-01-20, 02:27 PM
Internal damage isn't quite as lethal as it is in real life due to D&D's bizarre "muscular action" automated internal repair systems, anyway. So a swallowed greatsword deals 2d6 damage, cuts its way out, and that's that. :smallcool:

Tvtyrant
2011-01-20, 02:42 PM
One trick I like is the "suicide whale" one. Its not particularly little, but as a level 17 Druid Wildshape into a bird and fly up as high as you can. Then have your party members hold the enemy in place for a turn while you shapechange into a Baleen Whale. Fall on them for massive damage.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-20, 02:51 PM
By that logic, nowhere in the shrink spell does it say that it can ever deal damage, even if it is contained inside something too small for it... so enlarging the sword just enlarges it without dealing any damage.

The Shrink Item spell does not specifically say that it deals damage, but objects react exactly like objects would normally react. To rule that a sword that grows from microscopic to normal size inside someone would cause no damage, it's just outragous.

There are several instances where I would rule that it would cause no damage, but thoes are specific cases. Here are two examples where I would say it wouldn't cause damage.

1) The person that swallowed the sword is currently immune to critical hits because they have organs that shift around. I would say this would accomodate a sword.

2) The person swallowed the sword several hours ago and no one said the magic word to return the sword to normal size. Then the stomach acid has disolved the microscopic sword before it could cause any damage.

lesser_minion
2011-01-20, 03:04 PM
Why 5 ranks specifically? What makes that better than maxing Balance (Assuming you have the skillpoints for it)?

It lets you use the skill without automatically being treated as off-balance whenever attacked (which denies you your dex bonus to AC, making you vulnerable to sneak attack and sudden strike).

Fitz10019
2011-01-21, 05:27 AM
With regard to the Shrink Item, cookies-sprinkled-with-Fine-longswords trick...

I think we need a closer look at the RAW. Note that Dismissal of a spell requires you to be within range of the spell's effect. Shrink Item has special dismissal rules (when thrown or by de-activation word), but those special rules say nothing about changing the normal range of dismissal. The space the object currently occupies is the range of the spell's effect. My interpretation is you have to be touching an item to unshrink it, unless you chose the "throw-to-dismiss" option when casting the spell. But someone with stronger RAW-fu should weigh in.

Of course, you could achieve the desired effect when the spell duration runs out, but it requires much more planning, and keeping the cookie fresh for CL days.

another trick:
I saw someone use a raven familiar with a wand of Benign Transposition so that he always got a full attack (raven moved into melee range, then activated the wand; then the meleer was able to full attack). I forget what the build was.