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View Full Version : Which way does the Pointy End of the Sword go? (Requesting *Warblade* Tips)



AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-17, 05:35 PM
Thanks for all the help so far! I've got a bit of an idea of what's going to fill my character sheet.... (and yes, this was a lazy reposting of what occured on the last page. Bite me.)

Lets see...

Race:Human. Class:Warblade 20. Base Stats18,14,16,14,12,10 (in order).
Base HP:15. Alignment:Chaotic Good. Languages:Common, Dwarven, Elven.
Skills: Concetration, Jump, Listen, Tumble, Spot, Balance, Misc.
Possessions: Medium Masterwork (if permited) Great Sword, Bag of Holding I.
More Possessions: 800PP (In Bag In Bag of Holding), Gloves of Ogre Power.
MP2: Studded Leather Light Armor, Traveler's Outfit, Roleplaying Goods (in BoH).

As for the main combat stuff....

Level|Move Level|Gain|Lose|Stance|Feats (Bonus)
1|1st|Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind|-|Punishing Stance|Power Attack, (Cleave)
2|1st|Steely Strike|-|-|-
3|2nd|Action Before Thought|-|-|Improved Bull Rush
4|2nd|Wall of Blades|Steely Strike|-|-
5|3rd|Iron Heart Surge|-|-|(Improved Initiative)
6|3rd|Insightful Strike|Sapphire Nightmare Blade|Absolute Steel|Leap Attack
7|4th|Bounding Assault|-|-|-
8|4th|Mithral Tornado|Steel Wind|-|-
9|5th|Ruby Nightmare Blade|-|-|Shock Trooper, (Combat Reflexes)
10|5th|-|-|-|-
11|6th|Moment of Alacrity|-|Dancing Blade Form|-
12|6th|Greater Insightful Strike|Insightful Strike|-|Robilar's Gambit
13|7th|Avalanche of Blades|-|-|(Blind Fight)
14|7th|Quicksilver Motion|Bounding Assault|-|-
15|8th|Finishing Move|-|-|Adaptive Style
16|8th|Adamantine Hurricane|Mithral Tornado|Stance of Alacrity|-
17|9th|Strike of Perfect Clarity|-|-|(Iron Heart Aura)
18|9th|Diamond Nightmare Blade|Ruby Nightmare Blade|-|Leap of the Heavens
19|9th|Lightning Throw|-|-|-
20|9th|Time Stands Still|Avalanche of Blades|-|-


Any thing noticably commentable, or does everything look good? Feats and Moves stacking up okay? Thanks for the help so far, and thanks for any continued assistance!

Personal Comments: Desite Leap of the Heavens being a bit fillerish, I finally skipped sacrificing a Feat to get a Bigger Sword, and picked out the rest of the feats from what I could tell worked. I did eventually find those defensive feats I was told about earlier, and would have genuinly considered the two of them to allow me to pick out and guard members of my team, but the range for being able to help them was 10 feet.... Yeah no. Item of Cure X Wounds + Bounding Assault / Quick Silver Motion. Kill whoever's targeting them, and then worry about healing them if we've got a spare minute.

Also, when I sat down and looked, I had no room for Desert Wind Maneuvers. Diamond Mind is awesome, and Iron Heart is even More awesome. So much for Sword Beams (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SwordBeam), but I'll get over it. Cuting people to death is just as good. So I've been given the right to use the Warblade as is... although that makes me wonder about the other Warblade Style Attacks. Here we go again! :smallbiggrin: But nah, I'ma stick with mostly these, if I can. Heck, I had too many awesome moves at 10th level to want to trade them away, and most moves after that have just been expansions! How'm I gonna wrap my mind around another set of fighting styles!?! :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully, I'd assume all of my dump points from level ups would go into my Strength.... what other Magic Items increase Strength? And for that matter, Concentration? Maintaining Mental Focus seems to be a requirement of this fighting style, not that there's a problem with being able to focus in battle...

This chart and info is probably going to be good for a while... but what would happen if the Warblade went Epic? Would I just dip into other Maneuvers and continue other Warblade Class Habbits (New Move every Odd Level, Replace a Move Every Even Level, New Move Readed Every 5 Levels, New Stance Every 5 Levels, Bonus Feat every 4 and regular Feat every 3, tell me if I've got something wrong or am missing something)? And yeah, the DM modified when I learn my 3rd and 5th level stances, although I honestly don't think it's too much of a nerf (not that I have a say in the matter).

I've probably forgotten 3 other different things I wanted to ask... if I remember them, I'll ask, but if not, then they probably weren't important enough to ask in the first place... Thanks for the assist, guys!

Reynard
2011-01-17, 05:44 PM
Play a Warblade instead.

PCHWOOooooooooeee........*flees*

Hawk7915
2011-01-17, 05:44 PM
3.5, 4.0, or Pathfinder? It sounds like 3.5 but I want to be sure.

SuperFish
2011-01-17, 05:45 PM
First off, books available would be helpful to know.

Second, you should probably be warned that straight Fighter is considered relatively weak to other classes, due to their low versatility and, frankly, ease of replace.

If you are deadset on using a Fighter, do not take Weapon Focus/Specialization. The small bonus is simply not worth the feat. Power Attack, on the other hand, is golden and essentially required to be a competent THF Fighter. Because you use a two-handed weapon, for everything 1 you drop on your attack roll, you get to add 2 to you damage, and this number can be increased even further with Leap Attack, which doubles your damage on a charge if you make a fairly easy Jump check.

For ability scores, put the 16 in Con, the 14 in Dex, and the 10 in Cha. Your physical stats are the most important, while Charisma is quite close to useless to you.

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 05:45 PM
Have you considered looking at Tome of Battle? It has rather good options for fighter-like classes and they're mostly useless at ranged combat (not usually a plus, but you definately won't step on the Rogue's toes here).

Aside from that, Weapon Focus/Specialization are not that great. Power Attack might as well be the two handed weapon Fighter's 1st level class feature, rather than a bonus feat, so good choice there.

Beyond that, the allowed books would give us a better foundation on which we may make suggestions.

EDIT: 4 replies, all the same... HIVE MIND!!!

DeltaEmil
2011-01-17, 05:46 PM
To which books are you allowed/restricted? Also, Pathfinder (I guess not, but let's ask to be sure), D&D 3.0 or D&D 3.5?

mootoall
2011-01-17, 05:50 PM
Play a Warblade? All joking aside, you want your 16 in Con, 14 in Dex, and let your mental stats go wherever. Other than that, all I can say is Fighters are generally weak, unless you've a low-op party anyway. Low level feat options are just ... meh, so I've no advice on that. Also, I've got a server error going, so I'm probably gonna get swordsage'd on this advice ...

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 05:59 PM
Greatswords are so passe. Use a GREATCLUB instead. Same 'great' flavor, more bashy. Complete Warrior has the feat Three Mountains Style. Whenever you bludgeon someone twice with your beatstick, they have to save or be nausiated. Nausiated SUCKS, when it happens to you, so hand it out to your foes with glee. The more maniacal your grin, the more stupid your foes will feel when the light flickers in their eyes under the force of your blows.

Invest in some Power Attack, and focus on getting your attack bonus as high as you can. Power Attack for the HOUSE! There is no overkill, there is only "POWER ATTACK FOR FULL" and "I NEED HEALING".

JellyPooga
2011-01-17, 05:59 PM
Play a Rogue and call yourself a fighter. As far as I'm concerned, Rogues get more warrior-related class features than Fighters do. Think about warrior types in fiction; what abilities do they have? they're rarely caught off-guard (Uncanny Dodge), they cut down foes with a single blow (Sneak Attack) and they can move about a combat unhindered and achieve advantageous positions (Tumble as a Class Skill). That's just the low-level Rogue abilities. Once a Rogue gets past level 9, just look at the Rogue Special Abilities; they're all things you'd expect of a stereotypical warrior. Opportunist, Defensive Roll and Crippling Strike especially.

Not only that, but you also get a useful number of skill points and usable Class Skills; especially useful if you're aiming at a "party leader" role. If you're worried about HP, stick a 16 on Con and you'll average 7/level which isn't too shabby. Alternatively (or in addition), you could multiclass Fighter or Barbarian to bring your average up. The latter will also boost your BAB if you're worried about that. Multiclassing Rogue with a Martial Class shouldn't cause too much confusion.

All of the above assumes that you're using Core only. Various splat books will expand your options no end.

Hawk7915
2011-01-17, 06:15 PM
I'll echo everyone else: Warblades do it better. Really it's everything you want; the stock fighter from D&D 3.5 offers very little in the way of party leadership or tactics. Still, if you're really wanting to do it, here's some advice...
===========
Abilities: STR 18, CON 16, DEX 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10 (you can flip wis and charisma if you desperately want the +1 to social skills)
===========
Alternate Class Features: So you can actually have class features...

Dungeoncrasher Fighter (Dungeonscape) - You lose your 2nd and 6th level feats, but gain trapsmashing, trap sense, a bonus on strength checks to break things, and (most importantly) massive bonus damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or object.

Zhentarim Soldier (Champions of Valour Web Enhancement; download it from WoTC here! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)) - You lose nothing, but add Bluff and Diplomacy to your class skill list and get some nice bonuses to intimidate at 3, 5, and 9th level.
=================
FEATS:
Next, you need to pick some feat paths and roll with them. Feats that are good on all characters, forever, and that you should probably just take...

Power Attack - The feat that makes melee work in 3.5
Improved Bull Rush - Extra nice if you are a Dungeoncrasher, but you're mostly taking it because you have to to take...
Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) - You get some cool bull rush tactical options, but most critically you can lose AC instead of attack while charging.
Combat Reflexes - This feat is never not good and useful (well, assuming you're a melee-er with at least 14 Dex), and it's a prerequisite for a few of the options below.

From there, you should pick one (maybe two) "Combat Strategies" and run with them. Your options are...

The Lockdown Guy: Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Knock-down (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)) -> Standstill (SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) - This is better if you use a Spiked Chain and/or have a way to be large, but it can still be effective and handy even if not. Note you'll need to put your 4th level point in Int to go this direction.

Power of Fear: Intimidating Strike (PH2) -> Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) - You need the Zhentarim Soldier ACF to really make this sing, the "Never Outnumbered" skill trick, and having a fear-slinging caster helps too. A decent battlefield control option.

More Charging!: Leap Attack (Complete Scoundrel) -> Improved Sunder -> Combat Brute (Complete Warrior) -> Powerful Charge (Complete Warrior) - Doubles as the "Sundering" option. Makes you even better at dealing massive damage when you charge, and makes an even deadlier combination with...

Mounted Combat: Mounted Combat -> Ride-by Attack -> Spirited Charge: An all-core trick that plays very well with charging stuff in general. Use a Lance for best effect.

Team Player: Distracting Attack (Mintiature)-> Vexing Flanker (PH2)- Adaptable Flanker (PH2) -> Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer) - You set up flanks easier, get +4 instead of +2 from flanking, and grant allies a boost to attack whenever you attack or make an attack of opportunity against a target. The best you can do at being a "leader" without having Tome of Battle or a Marshal dip with high charisma.

Mage-slayer: Blind-fighting -> Mageslayer (Complete Arcane) -> Pierce Magical Protection (C. Arc) -> Pierce Magical Concealment (C.Arc) - again, gets better if you are large (or cheese out Martial Study -> Martial Stance for "Thicket of Blades), but in a low-optimization campaign this can be a handy way to screw with spellcasters.
================
Multi-classing:
Even at it's best, Fighter is not a good 20-level class. Optimally it is an 6 or 8-level class (8 is the level of the "Weapon Masteries" which aren't terrible honestly especially for a TWF or Archer), or even just a 2-level dip. Some people don't own/don't like Tome of Battle, and I don't judge, but if you can't be a Warblade here's some other options to consider...

Barbarian - Honestly, Barbarian 14/Fighter 6 is a fine build for a T3-4 campaign. Even just a 1-level dip in Barbarian gives you more skills, more HP, the awesome Rage ability (or better yet, WHIRLING FRENZY (SRD)), and (depending on ACFs) a few other nifty bonuses though. The best of those is to gain "Pounce" from the Spirit Lion Totem variant (Complete Champion).

Ranger - A few level dip is worth a lot of skillpoints, some more feats, and Favored Enemy (which opens up great stuff like Nemesis and Favored Power Attack).

I'd recommend dipping anything else unless you have a very specific build. I'm afraid I can't think of many great PrCs for a fighter type either, at least not ones that don't have some specific work to do (Exotic Weapon Master is pretty good...but not with a greatsword).

There's more, but that's the best of it. The big thing is, as other players have said, [B]don't take the weapon focus line, it is a trap. Hope that helps!

Elric VIII
2011-01-17, 06:19 PM
As JellyPooga alluded to, Tumble is an excelent skill. If you use the Cityscape (I think) alternative you can trade away Ride for Tumble as a class skill.

If you choose to use Three Mountians Style, I would also suggest Brutal Strike, from PHBII. It has no additional prerequisites if you're taking Three Mountians, and it also allows you to sicken an opponent that fails a save if you Power Attack him.

Combine Three Mountains Style, Brutal Strike, and Shock Trooper for great effects. Shock Trooper allows the use of special techniques when you charge.

With those 3 feats you can do the following:

Round 1:
- Charge the opponent.
- Power Attack, applying the penalty to AC instead of attack (this is from shock trooper)
- Use Brutal Strike to sicken your opponent, lowering his AC, Attack, Damage, and saves by 2.

Round 2:
- Full attack.
- Use the Three Mountains Style to sicken him, preventing further actions next turn.

Round 3:
- Smile obnoxiously/triumphantly as fits your character.



For added hilarity, ignore Brutal Strike and take a 1 level dip into Barbarian for the Spirit Lion Totem variant (Complete Champion) to trade Fast Movement for Pounce (the ability to full attack after a charge).

Pounce, Shock Trooper, and Three Mountians will allow you to attempt to nauseate him, add extra damage by losing AC, and full attack in one charge.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-17, 08:43 PM
I'm not sure who or what to begin responding to, if only because I seem to know very little about fighters...

The two things that I did notice that didn't immediately make me feel retarded for not knowing what you were talking about were about the books and version... We do 3.5.... half the party we added, while eager, is even worse about this than me, and a few of them are belligerent about material they can't recieve or understand.... we're an online group, so we mainly rely on this bad boy right here
http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm, although I've begun purchasing books and trying to point out what does what online....

I kinda wanted to stay a Fighter, if only because Fighters are cool... and I know that Fighter 20 is inferior even to Bards, since Spell Casting (via buffing, mezzing, damaging, and even healing) gives you more options than just wacking things.... my real first choice was to make a Soul Knife, even if it's basically just a fighter, out of sheer awesome points, but that scared people, even if it being within the only real reference point some of them have.

Edit: I'ma try to look through some of your ideas when I have the time, and see which ones of them would least likely scare people away... as well as which ones don't blow my mind inside and out.... try to be as simple as possible for me, if you don't mind. I'm dedede when it comes to fighters, apparently.

And despite there probably being better options than it, you can't deny the Great Sword... I like the Great Sword. There is nothing Phallic or Wrong about Liking Great Swords. :smalleek:

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 08:50 PM
The goal to being a fun, effective fighter is to do something MORE than just damage. I mean, damage is all well and good and stuff, but you want more depth than that. Being an intimidator, or inflicting status effects, or tripping, or something, is probably gonna be more fun in the long run.

What do you want to do then?

Draz74
2011-01-17, 08:56 PM
Heh. :smallsmile: Actually, Bards are one of the better classes in the game, if you know how to use them, even if they seem underwhelming at first.

Meanwhile, the Soulknife is one of the few classes that is even weaker than the Fighter. (Unless the DM gives you less treasure than the default rules indicate.)

Ah well. If you want to play an SRD-only, classic Fighter with a Greatsword, that's perfectly fine too. Here are some basic tips for doing that:

Take Power Attack. Use it a lot. Most monsters have poor AC, and you should be able to get a lot more bonus damage out of Power Attack than you would ever get out of Weapon Specialization.
Take Cleave if you want to, but stay far away from Great Cleave. Anything weak enough that you can Great Cleave it is too weak to waste feats on.
Improved Initiative is a pretty good feat for anyone in Core-only play. Combat Reflexes is an awesome feat if you have a decent Dexterity.
If you do end up wanting to be more powerful, a great way is to multiclass to a few levels of Ranger, then enter the Horizon Walker Prestige Class. After six levels of that class, you'll be able to teleport a short distance many, many times per day, which is a very powerful ability.

Vknight
2011-01-17, 08:58 PM
These are all evil evil builds. Were is the single class Fighter love. He wants fun not opptomized Juggernaut.
If your DM will allow it ask for a Great-sword with a flat side so it can do bludgeoning or slashing if your DM will allow.
That or use any of these builds or a Chimera of one of them.

Keld Denar
2011-01-17, 09:04 PM
These are all evil evil builds. Were is the single class Fighter love. He wants fun not opptomized Juggernaut.

You seem to be implying that one can't have both? Several of the builds presented work well with single class fighters, like the Intimator or the Three Mountains basher. You're condescending tone is...not helpful.

Zaq
2011-01-17, 09:06 PM
Since I don't think anyone has linked to it yet, you don't need the book to play a Warblade. They're available free from WotC right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), and their maneuvers are here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). 100% free, 100% legal, 100% WotC-approved.

But yeah, Warblades are basically Fighters that you can't screw up unless you actively try (OK, I have been in a group with one person who managed to make a crappy Warblade, but he was . . . special). Use it instead of the Fighter. They're just plain more fun. You'll regret being just a Fighter. You'll never regret being a Warblade.

Vknight
2011-01-17, 09:21 PM
You seem to be implying that one can't have both? Several of the builds presented work well with single class fighters, like the Intimator or the Three Mountains basher. You're condescending tone is...not helpful.

A little condescending a little joking after all I'm mocking it even though I suggested the exact same thing.

Force
2011-01-17, 10:14 PM
But yeah, Warblades are basically Fighters that you can't screw up unless you actively try (OK, I have been in a group with one person who managed to make a crappy Warblade, but he was . . . special). Use it instead of the Fighter. They're just plain more fun. You'll regret being just a Fighter. You'll never regret being a Warblade.

Unfortunately, the OP stated that he feels fairly new to the game and that...


half the party we added, while eager, is even worse about this than me, and a few of them are belligerent about material they can't recieve or understand....

TOB classes are solid T3's and difficult to screw up. A warblade in such a group as the above may end up appearing much more powerful than it actually is and giving the OP a bad rap as a munchkin, especially considering that some are "belligerent" about new material. Don't get me wrong-- TOB classes are just plain fun to play, but the OP may wish to tread carefully. It depends on the overall experience level and classes already in play; if there are one or two more experienced players who're playing T3 and above, warblade is probably fine.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-17, 10:25 PM
Thankfully, the players that are new and players that prefer sticking as close to the core stuff as possible are mutually in exclusive... heck, one of the new players (after talking to her a bit) would sooner play a Healer than a Cleric. XD

But yeah, I'm capable of learning, but I basically know -crap-. XD The other campaign took a friend's asist for me to DM the story, and that was with a basic class.

-WITH- that said, I checked the Warblade Page... and the Maneuver Cards.... I've so far just checked the Desert Wind Page.... am I allowed to use -any- of those types of Fighting Styles? Because if so, I might -never- play a Fighter again, and I wouldn't care -what- bonuses a Fighter gets. FLAMING SWORD BLASTS ARE -FRICKING -AWESOME- -!

I'd have to figure out how to make it work, but yeah, Warblades appear to be BLOODY FREAKING SWEAT! I believe one player asked what I was trying to do with the character. He's a Kid, who wants to become a Great Warrior, like his Father. And he's a show-offy braggart, immature, a bit perverted, and incredibly reckless. So flashy moves are a plus.

As for my reputation as a Munchkin, we will not begin to mention the Pokemon Metagame, because it makes the Group Monk begin to vomit in the corner about the tendences of half of our group on the subject. I don't think to actively break -anything-, but getting the best out of what I've got is indeed a high point.

Vknight
2011-01-17, 10:28 PM
Have fun don't worry also that pokemon thing reminds me of a Bleach Rpg that I concocted.

Siosilvar
2011-01-17, 10:33 PM
-WITH- that said, I checked the Warblade Page... and the Maneuver Cards.... I've so far just checked the Desert Wind Page.... am I allowed to use -any- of those types of Fighting Styles? Because if so, I might -never- play a Fighter again, and I wouldn't care -what- bonuses a Fighter gets. FLAMING SWORD BLASTS ARE -FRICKING -AWESOME- -!

1) Desert Wind isn't particularly good, mostly because it's all fire damage. It is awesome though.
2) No, Warblades get access to Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. Nevertheless, you can pull some awesome stuff with just those.

Tael
2011-01-17, 10:34 PM
Warblades only get White Raven, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and Iron Heart (which is their exclusive discipline). Swordsages, which are explicitly partly magical, have much more maneuvers, but d8 hit dice and 3/4 BAB, and get Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun in addition to what Warblades get (obviously minus Iron Heart). Crusaders (holy warriors without the spells) Get Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Stone Dragon.

Buy Tome of Battle. It's my favorite book published.



I'd have to figure out how to make it work, but yeah, Warblades appear to be BLOODY FREAKING SWEAT! I believe one player asked what I was trying to do with the character. He's a Kid, who wants to become a Great Warrior, like his Father. And he's a show-offy braggart, immature, a bit perverted, and incredibly reckless. So flashy moves are a plus.

Could be Swordsage or a Warblade. Or better yet, multiclass SS/Warblade! But yeah, you will probably be a lot more powerful than the rest of your group if they're all pretty new.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-17, 10:45 PM
Be pro and use Samurai. :smallbiggrin:

No, seriously. Zhentarim Fighter/CW Samurai is awesome. Throw in Imperious Command (DotU) and Fearsome Armor (I forget where) and make your enemies wet themselves, and lock them into cowering every round while murdering them, so long as they aren't undead/paladin/dragon.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-17, 10:55 PM
There is a build known as the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) that you might want to look into; its pretty dang good.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-17, 10:57 PM
Warblades only get White Raven, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and Iron Heart (which is their exclusive discipline). Swordsages, which are explicitly partly magical, have much more maneuvers, but d8 hit dice and 3/4 BAB, and get Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun in addition to what Warblades get (obviously minus Iron Heart). Crusaders (holy warriors without the spells) Get Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Stone Dragon.

Buy Tome of Battle. It's my favorite book published.



Could be Swordsage or a Warblade. Or better yet, multiclass SS/Warblade! But yeah, you will probably be a lot more powerful than the rest of your group if they're all pretty new.

Dude... Iron Heart's Finishing Move attack is -sexy-.

As for being more powerful than the rest of the group, the Rogue Archer has been given the right to Sneak Attack from 1 full Bow Incriment instead of 30 feet, we've got a Monk who probably wouldn't care of such things, a Healer (who might have the order of her Cure/Mass Cure spells changed around to make her a more efficient healer, since that's what she wants to do. Not give her Critical Wounds at the start, but possibly making the Mass Cure of each type come earlier) who's new as heck and probably wouldn't mind, and a Sorceror who is probably the most likely to feel threatened by this, so I might ease up on my special attacks unless I feel particularly cool, or there's a "Boss Fight" needing some of the infinitely spawning mooks to soften up. If I can control when I feel like being cool, I could probably pull it off...


Be pro and use Samurai. :smallbiggrin:

No, seriously. Zhentarim Fighter/CW Samurai is awesome. Throw in Imperious Command (DotU) and Fearsome Armor (I forget where) and make your enemies wet themselves, and lock them into cowering every round while murdering them, so long as they aren't undead/paladin/dragon.

As for Samurai, we're going back into the desert again, and Sand into that type of Armor just seems like it wouldn't fit... heck, doesn't seem like the Samurai fits into this type of world, anyway.....


Should I change the title of the thread and the intropost now? Finishing Move has won me over. I wish to be a War Blade, and would wonder if my Human would be appropriate for it... Also, would I be able to apply Power Attack to half of these stuffs? If so, even sexier.

Ranger Mattos
2011-01-17, 10:57 PM
As said, Warblades don't get Desert Wind normally. But you could take Martial Study (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Martial_Study) feat and get access to one maneuver, or if your DM is nice and knows ToB, you could ask if you could trade one of your disciplines for Desert Wind. I would recommend giving up Stone Dragon, as it is generally regarded as the weakest discipline. Besides the Mountain Hammer line (ignores damage reduction and hardness-bash down doors with ease!) and the capstone maneuver Mountain Tombstone strike, it is subpar to the other disciplines that Warblades can use.

Force
2011-01-17, 11:48 PM
...a Healer...

I understand that the Healer player is a newbie and wants to just heal, but I would like to point out that healing in-combat via spells (especially touch spells) is fairly suboptimal. Acquiring magic items (such as a wand of cure light wounds) usually fills the healing slot. The character will be very squishy in combat, as they are limited to non-metal light armor and will be getting up close & personal to the combatants to heal them. For some help on item-related healing, A Player's Guide to Healing (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29) is a wonderful resource.

A cleric built for healing is (in my opinion only) more enjoyable. The cleric will get all the spells the healer will and more, as well as turn attempts (not that useful themselves, but they can be used for other things) and domains, which add a bit of power as well as an extra spell slot (if the right domains are chosen, that can help compensate for the healer's SLAs). They also get 3/4 BAB and while they share d8 hit die, their ability to wear heavy armor makes life a lot easier on the battlefield; if they need to smack something, they can. Their spell list is where true power lies, though; not only can they heal, but they are also capable of buffing the party to make them even more powerful and capable of avoiding damage on their own. The only advantages a healer has are a few 1/day spell-like abilities and an animal companion; the spell-likes are useful, though limited, and the animal companion comes a little bit late to be useful when it's really needed.

JKTrickster
2011-01-17, 11:55 PM
I'll just link to this and all your problems will be solved: Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047955&posted=1)

DeltaEmil
2011-01-18, 12:13 AM
If you are indeed set on warblade (always a good choice), then Elfin's thread about warblades will surely help you out.

Here is the link to Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968&highlight=warblade)

Draz74
2011-01-18, 12:22 AM
... I have a terrible feeling that you guys have spawned yet another Tome of Battle-hating DM with this thread ...

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-18, 12:31 AM
... I have a terrible feeling that you guys have spawned yet another Tome of Battle-hating DM with this thread ...

Hey, she was willing to let a player get away with a Half Celestial with absolutely 0 penalties, and let another Animal Companion a Warrior Type Merfolk to be in a relationship with it's Master... I don't think she'll mind too much if I pull out a few special attacks with my War Blade.

Keld Denar
2011-01-18, 12:59 AM
What level do you want to build to?

And yes, PA is a VERY good choice for a Warblade. Since many of your maneuvers are strikes, aka standard actions, you don't get iterative attacks. Since you arent' worried about low bonus iterative attacks missing, you can afford to Power Attack a bit more liberally. Some maneuvers even highly reward Power Attacking, such as Emerald Razor and Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade attacks (which multiply all damage). If you like charging, Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind have some good manevuers for that as well.

I'm pretty knowledgable about Warblades, and could help set you up with a maneuver list for any given level and playstyle.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-18, 11:49 PM
We intend to actually keep these characters over time, which is why everyone's at level 1 now.... if we do stay on track, multiple campaigns, we could end up going past level 20 (an Epic Warblade... tell me that doesn't sound awesome, and I will tell you you are a god-damned LIAR!!!), and I personally don't see what would be wrong with planing for it.

I like the Stereotypical Sword Beams and other flash cool stuffs.... I know that Desert Wind gives a few projectile attacks, but I'd have to Cross Class a lot to get them, wouldn't I? Is there any way for me to get them and still keep the awesome abilities that Warblade's IronHeart style provides? Same for Diamond Mind (that 4x Attack Power Move and Double-your-Max-Number-of-Attacks Move are alsy very sexy)? Also, any option that lets me possibly be able to protect my allies from attacks? That'd be cool for roleplaying purposes...

Also, random questions are random, but what say you to a Warblade with just a Great Sword? Or should I bring other weapons to cover multiple damage types? Is dual wielding any better than the Great Sword, or can I just use it and clean up with it? And what say you on using a Large Great Sword? Slight Penalty to using it, but fits with the Glory Hound of the character being rolled up, too...

Thanks for any build tips you give!

Keld Denar
2011-01-19, 01:44 AM
Well, at 1st level, you get 3 maneuvers known and 1 stance. I'm partial to taking Steel Wind, Saphire Nightmare Blade, and probably Steely Strike. Tiger Claw doesn't do much for you here, outside of the awesome Sudden Leap, but its 1 maneuver known prereq is bloody expensive at this point. At some point, you want to pick up one White Raven manevuer, which you should eventually swap out for White Raven Tactics (just don't abuse it). Other than that, Emerald Razor and Mountain Hammer are both VERY solid 2nd level manevuers. If you don't Power Attack a whole lot, Wall of Blades can be fun, but if you PA every round, its less effective.

There's nothing terribly wrong with going for a greatsword as your primary weapon. Its got decent base damage and an ok threat range. You might have a bit more luck with a falchion (1 less average damage, 5% extra crit range), or a reach weapon like a glaive, but greatsword is solid. If you want a backup weapon, I'd suggest a morningstar. Its both piercing AND bludgeoning, which makes it cheaper when you start upgrading things to magic. I wouldn't pump it past +1 though, as its a backup weapon. You'll find that most things past low levels don't have DR for piercing/slashing/bludgeoning past level 5 or so, as they generally move on to magic and special materials. They still pop up, but they are pretty rare. If your DM insists on throwing tons of things with funky DR at you, consider investing in a Transmuting weapon (MIC, +2 equiv), which automatically adapts to overcome any DR except DR -/ after the first hit. Probably not needed though, for most games.

Elric VIII
2011-01-19, 01:59 AM
Just a thought here, you might want to begin with 2 levels of another class, before Warblade level 4, so that when you get your second level stance you will be IL 5. This will allow you to take a 3rd level stance, rather than a 2nd level.

The good part about this is that 2 levels of another class only loses you one IL, over the course of 20, so you still gain level 9 maneuvers (but beginning at ECL 18, rather than 17). I would recommend Fighter 2 for bonus feats and preserving BAB, Ranger 2 for TWF without prereqs, PsiWar for bonus feats and access to the Expansion power, or Cleric* for a few 1st level spells and possible 2 feat prereqs for Mo9. It's not essential to get that 3rd level stance, but you won't gain your next one for 6 levels.

*Darkness domain gives Blind Fight and Time domain gives Improved Initiative. Both are from the Spell Compendium, you also can cast True Strike 1/day with Time domain (more with spontaneous domains ACF from PHB II). Your 2 most important saves (Fort and Will) get bumped by +2. You can access divine feats.

Kalaska'Agathas
2011-01-19, 02:05 AM
Just a thought here, you might want to begin with 2 levels of another class, before Warblade level 4, so that when you get your second level stance you will be IL 5. This will allow you to take a 3rd level stance, rather than a 2nd level.

If you go with this, Bard 2, 4, or even 6 could be worthwhile. Add Song of the White Raven and Inspire Courage Optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) and you'll be adding a pretty significant boost to your to-hit and damage, along with the rest of the party (or a significant number of d6s if you go the Dragonfire Inspiration route, but I prefer regular IC for more Power Attack). That said, you may prefer straight Warblade.

Elric VIII
2011-01-19, 02:14 AM
If you go with this, Bard 2, 4, or even 6 could be worthwhile. Add Song of the White Raven and Inspire Courage Optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) and you'll be adding a pretty significant boost to your to-hit and damage, along with the rest of the party (or a significant number of d6s if you go the Dragonfire Inspiration route, but I prefer regular IC for more Power Attack). That said, you may prefer straight Warblade.

This is an excellent point. Just remember that if you take Song of the White Raven with only a few levels of Bard, you don't gain more uses of Bardic Music. There is a feat called Extra Music from Comp Adventurer that gives +4 uses of Bardic Music.

It might be worth while to ask if you can get Song of the White Raven as an addition to the list of Warblade bonus feats, since it fits the relative theme of those feats.

JeminiZero
2011-01-19, 02:20 AM
If you want a backup weapon, I'd suggest a morningstar. Its both piercing AND bludgeoning, which makes it cheaper when you start upgrading things to magic. I wouldn't pump it past +1 though, as its a backup weapon. You'll find that most things past low levels don't have DR for piercing/slashing/bludgeoning past level 5 or so, as they generally move on to magic and special materials.

That said, there are scenarios where you want either pure piercing or pure bludgeoning damage. Admittedly these don't come up much:

Pure Piercing matters if you find yourself fighting underwater for whatever reason (and don't have FoM), where other weapon types take -2 to attack and deal only half damage.

Pure Bludgeoning is important to fight off Oozes that split when they take any other form of damage. Incidentally, you might also want your backup bludgeoning weapon to be made of crystal instead of metal, so that it won't dissolve from Ooze Acid.

Keld Denar
2011-01-19, 02:39 AM
Oh, and one other thing. If you have medium or greater armor, DO NOT FORGET ARMOR SPIKES!!!!! Its like having a backup dagger that you NEVER need to draw. You can use all of your manevuers with your armor spikes, if needed. The ones with +xd6 damage, or that inflict status effects, will barely be affected. Thats one of the glorious draws of ToB...what weapon you use is less important, its about how you weild it.

Or, as Saph would say: "Wanna see me make this pencil disappear?"

Weasel of Doom
2011-01-19, 03:57 AM
I know that Desert Wind gives a few projectile attacks, but I'd have to Cross Class a lot to get them, wouldn't I? Is there any way for me to get them and still keep the awesome abilities that Warblade's IronHeart style provides?

Luckily for you there is a way of having your cake and eating it. The Martial Study feat Ranger Mattos mentioned allows you to pick up one extra manuever of a discipline you don't know. Normally I'm not sure it'd be worth it but in a game with beginners I doubt that will matter and you get a cool flashy new ability.

Similarly the Stone Dragon manuvers aren't that powerful but some are incredibly cool just because they allow you to ignore hardness when attacking objects. This means you can chop (or punch or headbutt) your way through walls and doors which is just cool. In jail with no weapons? Tear you way through the bars with your bare hands! (not quite as cool as a druid who uses his bear hands though)

I also second considering the idea of taking two levels of another class. Psychic warrior allows you the expansion power which increases your size to large. You mentioned wanting to use a large weapon, now you won't take penalties. Being large is pretty good because you get reach (meaning you get an AoO when normal sized enemies engage you) and you can loom over everyone else (might suit your arrogant background)

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-20, 02:48 AM
The DM ruled on 2 things...

A) Due to one member of the party sounding slightly upset at the mention of like 3 of the Iron Heart Moves (the Arcane Caster, no less), I'm not allowed to Multiclass and gain even more benefits and end up possibly spreading the animosity to more people (even if it's only the spell spamer that feels threatened by the power of my blade). Pulling out Tome of Battle is apparently more than enough Munchkining without me Multiclassing it up (although I'm allowed any feats I have the prerequizit for).
[A-2) We're starting off as first level characters anywho, so unfortunately I can't try out taking multiple levels in a different class before WarBlade anyways.... and it might be better for me to start as a Warblade and let the others get used to my awe inspiring power!]

And B) I'm not allowed to use a Large Great Sword unless I have some type of way (feat? possibly inexpensive magic item?) to justify the effort in holding the thing, since it would go beyond Two Handed Fighting (I'm so used to the various video game protagonists carrying half a bloody skyscraper, the desire is probably ingrained into my stereotype of how a fighter should work... Sad Face is Sad). If I can find out how to make it be allowed, then I can... as for enlarging my character, I wanna stay a puny human. I know being bigger would sure as heck make me stronger, and I'd probably enjoy that... but at the same time, it's not as fun climbing up giant monsters when you're the size of their feet, rather than the size of their toe-nail. :smallbiggrin:

Random Questions Generated From Things Stated That Made Me Wonder...:

1) How exactly does Leap Attack work, and with Power Attack? Never did much charging as a Druid, but it seems to be some type of hidden hyper 1 hit ultra attack from what the internet says, and from what's been said here. How does it work? And can it be applied to my Iron Heart and Diamond Mind Moves?

2) Pretty much the same as 1), but with Headless Charge...

2-a) Can 1 and 2 be combined with a special attack for borderline rigged power?

3) I'm actually considering a Great Club with (dear lord, possibly instead of) the Great Sword, considering the gnarly combos some of these more essoteric styles and feats provide, but I really want to have mah Great Sword and do some epic oversized metal slashing.... are there any super combos I can do using a Great Sword? It's just not the same with a Club, man....

4) Considering that we get thrown -incredulous- numbers of Mooks (not that I mind it), what exactly is wrong with the ability to kill as many as I can in one set of moves (baring the jokes that come with a Boy and his Great Cleavage)? It doesn't seem to be all that bad a tech, and (except for when Bosses have had most of their mooks eliminated), seems like it would be worth it, considering I'm getting Cleave and Power Attack already. Heck, I wonder about either using a special ability aoe to weaken a group, and then a Great Cleave to cut them all down to size... or possibly a Charging Power Leap Attack Combo Thing? I'm not sure how those combo moves work... never was good at Street Fighter....

5) How do the Martial Study Feats allow me access to the Blast Attacks I'm hoping to add from Desert Wind to my awesome Slash Moves I'm getting from Iron Heart and Diamond Mind? I'll be fine once I become able to FREAKING THROW MY SWORD AT PEOPLE with Iron Heart's Lightning Throw, but until then, a few Sword Beams would fit right up my ally... I'm still awaiting clearance on trading the right to other combat styles for Desert Wind (I might be failing my spot check, but I'm not seeing anything I'm too interested in with Stone Dragon (although Weasel of Doom's making me try to check it again) and Tiger Soul, and since all but 1 of my party will be behind me in battle rather than fighting next to me, White Raven doesn't seem like it's doing me much good), but if I've got feats to spare and if I could make it work, I just need a couple of freaking awesome sword beams... just -Yes-.

6) I just wanna be an all around damage dealer, but if there's any moves that actively lets me protect an ally, rather than just a small boost to a save or other roll (the move could be a feat, stance, or whatever... I gotta try to compile my list of options and see what all I want and have to work with), that'd be swell.

7) Do people ever make character sheets on line, like with Microsoft word? And if so, what would you put on them that isn't included on a regular character sheet? Somewhat random...

I should try to figure out what all I'm going to have prepared / be doing at 1st Level, so that I'm not holding anyone up when we get started... Hopefully, I can get all of my ridiculous questions out of the way, tell what I've come up with for my character so far, and ask if there's anything missing and what I would logically do as I move on... Thank's for the tips!

Keld Denar
2011-01-20, 03:27 AM
For your last question, a lot of people tend to use online character profilers. I personally use Myth-weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetindex.php), but thetangledweb.net and plothook.net also have profilers. The advantage to cloud-based character sheets is that its easy to print them off from a local library or friends house, in case you forget your sheet.

2xMachina
2011-01-20, 06:00 AM
B) Why not use a Medium Great Sword? IIRC, inappropriate size weapons really suck.

1) Leap attack needs Power Attack. With a THW, You get 4 damage per to-hit penalty you take from Power Attack (this is with errata)

2) Heedless charge is the one from shock trooper? That one changes your to-hit penalty to AC penalty.

2-a) Using both is pretty ok. The crazy part comes when you stack other stuff on top of it. Battle Jump feat doubles all damage. There's also a bunch more +100% damage options, so you can end up doing crazy amount of damage from a single hit.

3) I'm not sure what good the Great Club would be... In case you have a AWESOME homebrewed style for it, take Aptitude weapon Great Sword to qualify. (This is like the aptitude kukri +lightning mace trick)

DeltaEmil
2011-01-20, 06:03 AM
1) How exactly does Leap Attack work, and with Power Attack? Never did much charging as a Druid, but it seems to be some type of hidden hyper 1 hit ultra attack from what the internet says, and from what's been said here. How does it work? And can it be applied to my Iron Heart and Diamond Mind Moves?It works as described in Complete Adventurer.
Specifically, you need 8 ranks in Jump and will so only be able to take it once you're at least level 5, and you need Power Attack of course. You must cover at least 10 feet in a horizontal jump and land in a square in which you can threaten an enemy while charging. You deal double damage with a power attack, and when using a two-handed weapon, deal tripple damage. Because this only works in a charge, you can't combine it with most maneuvers, unless they specifically let you do a charge, like Pouncing Charge from the Tiger Claw school. So no luck with strike maneuvers. However, stances and boosts of course work with it.


2) Pretty much the same as 1), but with Headless Charge... Heedless charge is a part of the ever-popular Shocktrooper Tactical Feat, described in Complete Warrior.
This allows you to shift the penalties of hitting with power attack to a penalty on your AC. As power attack normally lets you hit worse than normal, and you only deal damage when you hit in D&D, you can see why it is that popular for a melee charger, combined with the Leap Attack feat. Of course, this being a charge, you can't combine it with strike maneuvers like above.

2-a) Can 1 and 2 be combined with a special attack for borderline rigged power?Yes and nope. The feats Leap Attack and the Shock Trooper Tactical feat can of course be combined, and is what makes a fighter (or any melee combatant for that) a terrifying death machine. But strikes cannot be used with charges (unless they somehow specify that they do, and I don't remember any of them doing so). Only boosts and stances.

3) I'm actually considering a Great Club with (dear lord, possibly instead of) the Great Sword, considering the gnarly combos some of these more essoteric styles and feats provide, but I really want to have mah Great Sword and do some epic oversized metal slashing.... are there any super combos I can do using a Great Sword? It's just not the same with a Club, man....There isn't really that much of combo that Great Clubs excel in comparison to Great Swords. There might be some complicated feat-shenanigans that rather depend if the weapon is slashing, bludgeoning or piercing, but most of these are so feat-intensive that even Fighters won't really take them. As an adept of the sublime way, your inner burning powers of heroic epic killyness come from your maneuvers and stances. Of course, having a high enhancement bonus for hitting and bonus-damage, special weapon qualities and perhaps the improved critical feat or a keen-edge spell or the keen weapon property makes a great sword that much more killy.

4) Considering that we get thrown -incredulous- numbers of Mooks (not that I mind it), what exactly is wrong with the ability to kill as many as I can in one set of moves (baring the jokes that come with a Boy and his Great Cleavage)? It doesn't seem to be all that bad a tech, and (except for when Bosses have had most of their mooks eliminated), seems like it would be worth it, considering I'm getting Cleave and Power Attack already. Heck, I wonder about either using a special ability aoe to weaken a group, and then a Great Cleave to cut them all down to size... or possibly a Charging Power Leap Attack Combo Thing? I'm not sure how those combo moves work... never was good at Street Fighter....Unless your gm arbitrarily shifts numbers around (absolutely fine with most groups), most mooks with low hitpoints (low enough that you get to start great-cleaving around) also have terribly low combat stats that make them absolute no threat in combat in the first place, normally. Of course, this assumes that your AC is adequate for your level (for a melee combatant being level +20 if possible, plus-minus 3 to 5 points). Mooks would need to hit you on a natural 20, and that's not really fun, nor does it make things tense. Low-mook-killing is either done by a blaster who does it half-heartedly and rolling eyes at having to waste his spells for that, or they're all incapacitated with weak-ass enchantment spells so that the battle isn't side-tracked with wasting time on rolling hits and damage against worthless foes. While this can be fun in a video-game, a turn-based tabletop-rpg with dices for rolling instead of action-packed controller-fu will more than quickly lose its charm if you kill your next three 1/2 hd orcs that can't hit stuff in the first place.

5) How do the Martial Study Feats allow me access to the Blast Attacks I'm hoping to add from Desert Wind to my awesome Slash Moves I'm getting from Iron Heart and Diamond Mind? I'll be fine once I become able to FREAKING THROW MY SWORD AT PEOPLE with Iron Heart's Lightning Throw, but until then, a few Sword Beams would fit right up my ally... I'm still awaiting clearance on trading the right to other combat styles for Desert Wind (I might be failing my spot check, but I'm not seeing anything I'm too interested in with Stone Dragon (although Weasel of Doom's making me try to check it again) and Tiger Soul, and since all but 1 of my party will be behind me in battle rather than fighting next to me, White Raven doesn't seem like it's doing me much good), but if I've got feats to spare and if I could make it work, I just need a couple of freaking awesome sword beams... just -Yes-.Caution. Even as a human and a warblade who does gets bonus-feats (that must be then selected from a narrow list given in the class description), you won't really have that much feats to choose from. That's still the (normally sad) advantage that fighters have over other classes. Martial study is a feat that allows you to take maneuvers from other schools. However, the higher the level of the maneuvers, the more maneuvers you need to know prior (with some exceptions), so that you'd need to invest quite a few of your few feats into maneuvers you'd not really want to take to get the maneuver from the Desert Wind school.

6) I just wanna be an all around damage dealer, but if there's any moves that actively lets me protect an ally, rather than just a small boost to a save or other roll (the move could be a feat, stance, or whatever... I gotta try to compile my list of options and see what all I want and have to work with), that'd be swell.Some of them are described in Drow of the Underdark, but they're rather bad and are feat-taxes. Thicket of Blades is a stance of the Devoted Spirit school that lets you do Attacks of Opportunity against any enemy that tries to go away from your threatened range with a five-foot step. Improved Trip is a really awesome feat that lets you make an attack against an enemy that you managed to trip. You can see how powerful this combo is, denying your enemies the chance to get to your weaker party members in the first place.

I should try to figure out what all I'm going to have prepared / be doing at 1st Level, so that I'm not holding anyone up when we get started... Hopefully, I can get all of my ridiculous questions out of the way, tell what I've come up with for my character so far, and ask if there's anything missing and what I would logically do as I move on... Thank's for the tips!Unfortunately, most super-awesome combos will come up later.

Rawn
2011-01-20, 07:12 AM
Regarding using a Large weapon, take a look at the feat Monkey Grip in Complete Warrior. It lets you use weapons of a larger size category, though with a penalty to attack.

Frog Dragon
2011-01-20, 08:09 AM
Monkey grip is godawful though. It gives you a -2 to to attack for wielding the big sword, which means it sucks, because even with a greatsword you only get an extra 3.5 of average damage. That's less than your two handed PA with no extras.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-25, 12:47 PM
I feel like I should have asked about how each of the special manuvers work differently, but I've got time before I take the feats that would allow me to take them, anyway, so I'll ask about it later.

I have officially recieved the Green Light to take the Desert Wind Fighting Style! I'm sacrificing the other three, but Iron Heart and Diamond Mind are enough for me to kick some butt, and just being allowed to take the class was a chore in and of itself. Flaming Swords of Awesome with Massive Damage Strikes -ROCK-!

Also, Monkey Grip gives me a total of -4 to my Attack Accuracy Check due to the Feat adding -2 and it being a -2 for the Great Sword being Large, right? If that's all it does, assuming that's how it works, I'm -definitely- taking it. 80% chance of hitting and doing 3d6 Damage for it? I'll take those odds. Maybe I've been playing Fire Emblem, Soul Calibur, and Final Fantasy too much, but in my mind, you just can't be a Warrior without having a Sword at least as Big as you are. XD

Class: 1st Level Human Warblade

Stats: 20 Str (+2 for Gloves of Ogre Power), 14 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha (I rerolled my stats infront of the GM and picked them out again)

Feats: Power Attack, Monkey Grip (Cleave if I've got Monkey Grip Wrong)

Items on Person: Bag of Holding Grade 1, Amount of Money yet to be determined but large enough to pay 4 people 5000 GP with little difficulty (someone's totally royalty for the sake of assisting the GM with the plot), Large Great Sword, Clothes, Unsure of Armor.

Skill Points: Tumble, Concentration, Balance, Jump, Spot, Listen (they've been made class skills for all beings with eyes and ears respectively, as has Search), and I'll probably throw the last extra points into Search, although I'll put them into anything. The first 6 are the ones that will be leveled up constantly.

Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven.

Hit Points: 15

Manuvers Known / Readied (Anyone wanna give me a refresher on how this works, exactly? I thought all I have to do is take a turn of not doing anything (or just a standard attack) to refresh Manuvers as a Warblade. Is that how it works? And can I use Feats and stuff (like the Power Attack + Combos) as my Standard Attack?):

-Desert Wind: Burning Blade
-Diamond Mind: Saphire Nightmare Blade
-Iron Heart: Steel Wind

Stance (and this part should just be easy... swift action to power up, and turn it off or on at will):

Iron Heart: Punishing Stance.



Think I'm missing anything else from my sheet? And would it be okay if I posted my ideal future Feat Progression and Manuver Progression Later?

Keld Denar
2011-01-25, 02:05 PM
You seem to have a lot of...cash for a 1st level character. The gauntlets alone are 4000g, plus a 2500g minimum bag full of cash? Gah.

You have Monkey Grip wrong. Normally, if you try to use a large sized weapon, you suffer a -4 penalty to hit, and the level of effort goes up by one step. With Monkey Grip, you take only half of that penalty, and the level of effort stays the same. So...without the feat, you couldn't wield a large greatsword at all, since a greatsword is already a 2handed weapon, and there isn't a catagory above 2handed weapons. With it, you take a -2 penalty to hit. The reason its generally considered bad is 2-fold. 1st) You can buy the feat with gold (MIC has an item called Strongarm Bracers, which do the same thing as Monkey Grip, except without the -2 penalty), and 2nd) Compare the feat to Power Attack. At medium size, Monkey Grip gives you a -2 penalty to hit for ~3.5 extra damage. Power Attack, which you already have, would give you a -2 penalty for +4 damage. Thats an extra .5 damage return on your investment, for a feat you are already taking.

So...yea, my suggestion to you. Swap the Gauntlets of Ogre Power for Strongarm Bracers (buy the gauntlets later, or with all that extra cash), and use your sword that way. Saves you a feat which you can spend on other things. Cleave is a decent buy, but don't take Great Cleave, its not worth it.

Your maneuver selection looks solid. You'll probably always want to pair up Steel Wind with Burning Blade. That'll give you the most total damage, since you'll have 2 attacks with Steel Wind, you'll get Burning Blade damage on both.

Stance is ok. Punishing Stance is great at low levels, but eventually becomes a bit lackluster. I'd keep it, though, as it serves your purpose nicely. There is nothing saying you can't stay in a stance at all times. That saves you a swift action at the start of combat, since you'll already be in your stance. Until you are really switching stances around, you'll generally have a main combat stance which you'll be in most of the time.

As far as gaining manevuers go, you gain one at every level that your maneuvers known increases. So...at 2nd level, you go from 3 known to 4 known. That means you learn a new maneuver. You pick any one from any level you know. It doesn't have to be the highest level, although thats generally a wise decision. After about level 4, you generally gain a new maneuver known every odd level. At every even level from 4 and up, you get to swap one of your maneuvers known. The one you swap out can be of any level, and the one you gain can be of any level you can learn.

You can use some feats in combination with maneuvers. Things like Power Attack work because they simply modify how you roll. Feats that require actual actions to activate, like say, Intimidating Strike (PHBII, I think?), can't.

The easiest way to plan out maneuvers when you level up is to make a table. You can do this on paper, or on the forum using {table] tags.

{table=head]Lvl|Maxlvl|Gain|Lose|Stance
1|1|Steel Wind, Burning Blade, Saph Nightmare|-|Punishing Stance
2|1|Moment of Perfect Mind|-|-
3|2|Emerald Razor|-|-
4|2|Action Before Thought|Saph Nightmare Blade|Stance of Clarity
[/table]

Etc. You can quote my post to get the table syntax if you don't already know it, and extrapolate the table from there to plan your maneuvers.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-25, 02:28 PM
You refresh your maneuvers by expending your swift action, immediately followed by a melee attack (can be part of a full-attack) or doing a flourish ( basically nothing as a standard action). You cannot use a standard action doing something else like aid another, feint or activate a magic item, or use a move action instead of a standard action. It must be a melee attack or a standard action that lets you "waste" your turn doing nothing for 1 round.

Stances don't need to be refreshed, although they can only be changed by using a swift action. So when you'll get a new stance, you can't refresh your maneuvers and change your stance at the same time unless you have a special ability saying that you can do so.

And one important thing. To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move. So if you're being pinned (immobilized) while grappled, paralyzed or afflicted by hold person as an example, you can't use any of your maneuvers or change into another stance.
Beware enemy grapplers at your level.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-26, 01:07 AM
Yeah, I know my character is Rich (although I admitedly forgot exactly how much each player is suppost to be payed to be part of the party, I should ask that), but it's only 'cause the DM felt like justifying his generosity towards players allowing them to purchase all the little supplies they'd need for traveling and dungeon crawling, as well as weapons, and gives each person a bag of holding. Making one person a Prince or Princess paying for a party to assist in training seemed like a way to hand wave it, apparently. Names were assigned to numbers, Dice were rolled, and someone's fighter suddenly became the crown prince of a nation, training to become as legendary a fighter as his king-promoted parent. Why not simply be asked by Royalty to perform a task instead of making a PC Royal? The apparent answer is why would Royalty ask a random group of level 1 adventurers to go do stuff for him or her. And while there are a multitude of options to justify such a thing, it's apparently just not what the DM had in mind. Go figure.

As for Monkey Grip, I thought it was just -2 for a Medium Character wielding a Large Weapon, and -2 for the Feat to even allow such Weapon Wielding to occur in the first place. Where'd the initial -4 come from that Monkey Grip adds -2 to? Just making sure I know all of the stuff I need to know... it'd suck if I started doing things I shouldn't be able to do.... although to be fair, with a +1 Base Attack Bonus and a +5 Strength, I'd still just roll a d20 to see if I hit or not, and I'm fine with those odds for now.... And I'm kinda scared of magic items to do things that are ingraved into a character's backstory. Seems like that kind of fighting style would be something that I'd train to be able to earn to use (ie a feat), rather than just Magic Item for.... not to mention that if the item was stolen, or broken, or anything like that, I'd be sunk... Plus the -6 (if it really is that big) would help give balance to the class, at least compared to (most of) the rest of the party. Gives me a way to let others have a turn to attack instead of me owning everthing. I luck out on my Rolls, anyway. I've failed maybe 3 Spot Checks in game. XD

How exactly do Bonus Feats work? I've no idea what to spend the Warblade Feats on, and yet I've got 'em... heck, I'm not even fully sure what I should use my regular Feats on... Power Attack, Monkey Grip (unless, despite all this, it only serves to make the game worse for having it, in which case I will substitute it for Cleave), Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Adaptive Style, Possibly Blade Meditation or some of the other feats in the Tome of Battle (not sure which of them I would use...)... any other suggestions, or should I try to list more feats and see which ones fit and work? Also, any Feats I can pick that let me attack those that hurt allies or antying like that, even taking on ally damage? Someone mentioned triping people that attack moving in and out of my range, but I don't know how triping really works, to be honest...
Thanks for the Manuver Tips. I'll provide a list of the ones i'm going with later along with the Feats if I can decide on them. Also, when do I have to add new Manuvers? Is their a specific time limit on them, like with skills (unable to store up points and use the previous levels with the next levels, if I remember right)? And does this also apply to stances?

And before I post this long piece of work, I thought I asked it already, but I'll refresh it again: Power Attack + Leap Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper. Am I allowed to combine these like I thought I was told I could before, to use as the Standard Action to refresh my manuvers? Or do I really just sit there and look cool for 1 turn to replinish my manuvers? Also, does it require me to perform this act for each manuver? Or do I restore all manuvers with one move? There was one other thing I wanted to ask, but I forgot it. I'll probably remember it soon enough.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-26, 02:27 AM
As for Monkey Grip, I thought it was just -2 for a Medium Character wielding a Large Weapon, and -2 for the Feat to even allow such Weapon Wielding to occur in the first place. Where'd the initial -4 come from that Monkey Grip adds -2 to? Just making sure I know all of the stuff I need to know... it'd suck if I started doing things I shouldn't be able to do.... although to be fair, with a +1 Base Attack Bonus and a +5 Strength, I'd still just roll a d20 to see if I hit or not, and I'm fine with those odds for now.... As Keld Denar wrote, without Monkey Grip, you wouldn't even be able to wield a larger greatsword at all, and a larger one-handed weapon would be counted as a two-handed weapon with a -2 for inappropriate size. Only by having Monkey Grip can you wield a larger two-handed weapon with a -2 penalty to hit.

But, just forget Monkey Grip, and never think about it anymore. It's a bad feat for a lousy increase in weapon damage. A trap like Dodge or Toughness. Just refluff/reskin your normal medium-size greatsword into looking like it was a lot bigger, but it being better balanced than it seems. The bigger your penalty to hit, the more your character sucks as a melee combatant. If you don't hit with your attack, your maneuver is wasted.


And I'm kinda scared of magic items to do things that are ingraved into a character's backstory. Seems like that kind of fighting style would be something that I'd train to be able to earn to use (ie a feat), rather than just Magic Item for.... not to mention that if the item was stolen, or broken, or anything like that, I'd be sunk... Plus the -6 (if it really is that big) would help give balance to the class, at least compared to (most of) the rest of the party. Gives me a way to let others have a turn to attack instead of me owning everthing. I luck out on my Rolls, anyway. I've failed maybe 3 Spot Checks in game. XDForget those 1 hd orcs and goblins. They're not important, and they're not difficult enemies, even if they swarm you 4 to 1 at level 1. As the melee beat-stick, your purpose is to be good in melee, which is why you don't cast spells that can solve any problem there is. If your magic items can be stolen or destroyed or disabled, so will your weapons and armor and other things, and then you're an unarmed doofus who is even worse than a monk (and they're not that good). This doesn't balance things at all. It just makes you worthless. It's always the melee dudes who suffer more when they are in an anti-magic zone.

How exactly do Bonus Feats work? I've no idea what to spend the Warblade Feats on, and yet I've got 'em... heck, I'm not even fully sure what I should use my regular Feats on... Once you're level 5 and get the bonus warblade feat (which does list the feats you can choose with it in the class feature description), I'd say Blind-Fight is a good choice. It lets you reroll your miss chance against enemies that use concealment or are invisible.

Power Attack, Monkey Grip (unless, despite all this, it only serves to make the game worse for having it, in which case I will substitute it for Cleave), Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Adaptive Style, Possibly Blade Meditation or some of the other feats in the Tome of Battle (not sure which of them I would use...)... any other suggestions, or should I try to list more feats and see which ones fit and work? These are so far good feats (with the exception of monkey grip, of course, and blade meditation, which is also bad). If you have Combat Reflexes (a feat that is granted by your warblade bonus feats), you could take Robilar's Gambit, which lets you use your attacks of opportunities on an enemy that hits you in melee. That feat is described in the Player's Handbook 2.
Else, take a look at Elfin's guide for warblades, under the feat section. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9820259&postcount=6) It lists the benefits and the disadvantages that you get.

Also, any Feats I can pick that let me attack those that hurt allies or antying like that, even taking on ally damage? Someone mentioned triping people that attack moving in and out of my range, but I don't know how triping really works, to be honest...Here's how Trip works. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) Improved Trip is a feat that gives you a bonus to trip enemies and makes it so that you don't get an attack of opportunity in your face. To get Improved Trip, you must have Combat Expertise. But this only really works good if the enemy isn't much bigger than large, and is at the same time tough enough to not be killed in one or two hits. Else, just whack-a-mole the enemy. Defeated enemies can't hurt anybody, after all.
The supplemental book Drow of the Underdark has the feats Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian that lets you swap your place with the ally of your choice, but that's two feats, and they of course suck.

Thanks for the Manuver Tips. I'll provide a list of the ones i'm going with later along with the Feats if I can decide on them. Also, when do I have to add new Manuvers? Is their a specific time limit on them, like with skills (unable to store up points and use the previous levels with the next levels, if I remember right)? And does this also apply to stances?Table 1-3 does say when you get a new maneuver known. And no, you can't store them up. You can use lower-level skills than you'd be able to use, but most of them should be swapped once you get the opportunity, as described in the warblade class feature.


And before I post this long piece of work, I thought I asked it already, but I'll refresh it again: Power Attack + Leap Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper. Am I allowed to combine these like I thought I was told I could before, to use as the Standard Action to refresh my manuvers? Or do I really just sit there and look cool for 1 turn to replinish my manuvers? Bull rush does not allow you to damage your enemies (so it doesn't really combine with Leap Attack and the "maneuvers" granted by Shock Trooper), but it is considered an attack, so yes, you can use it to refresh your maneuvers. And yes, charging an enemy (modified by the feats Leap Attack, Power Attack and Shock Trooper) is a melee attack that can be used to refresh your expended maneuvers too.

Also, does it require me to perform this act for each manuver? Or do I restore all manuvers with one move? There was one other thing I wanted to ask, but I forgot it. I'll probably remember it soon enough.That's the one big advantage the warblade has over his swordsage sister and his crusader cousin. All his expended maneuvers are refreshed. That's because he has only so few maneuvers he can ready.

Keld Denar
2011-01-26, 05:18 AM
Yea, you seem to have missed me. The -2 you get from Monkey Grip REPLACES the -4 you'd have without it. So...if you use MG with a large greatsword, you'd have a total of -2 to hit. Period.

Seriously, sit down and read the section of Warblade that talks about gaining maneuvers. Its only about 2 paragraphs long, and it'll answer those questions a LOT better than we can explain it. Its there. Trust me.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-26, 05:38 AM
Although, a question. How does a medium-size creature get a -4 penalty for wielding a larger two-handed weapon? Isn't it simply impossible for them to wield it in the first place (and therefore it wouldn't confer a penalty)?

2xMachina
2011-01-26, 08:45 AM
1. Can't wield a larger two handed weapon
2. When you do wield a wrongly sized weapon, you take a -4 penalty for inappropriate size.

Chen
2011-01-26, 09:55 AM
With the limited readied maneuvers a warblade has you need to work out a good balance of what types of maneuvers to ready.

I generally take one or two strikes and leave the rest either as boosts or counters. Basically you don't want to get stuck in a round having to use a regular melee attack without being able to refresh your maneuvers. This means if you used a counter after your turn, you want a strike readied so that you can use it on your upcoming turn. If you don't have a strike available you're stuck using a regular melee attack/full attack but you don't have the swift action available to refresh your maneuvers.

That said, almost regardless of the level, if I don't have a mind blank available Moment of the Perfect Mind will be one of my readied maneuvers just because of the weak will save a warblade generally has. I suppose once you get high enough in level you can take the one that adds your level to a save you roll as a catch all, though I still like moment of the perfect mind. I also generally have wall of blades readied all the time since its good at reducing overall damage and especially good at preventing those ranged touch spells from destroying you.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-01-31, 03:02 PM
My dreams of having a blade as big and awesome as this (http://ninjagaiden.wikia.com/wiki/Enma%27s_Fang) badass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQBsQ-BObM8&feature=related) Mother (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOiAxoy5HjQ&feature=related) ****er's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFSsAcQG5yE) is all but dead now (ignore them saying that's just a long sword. I've seen long swords. I've seen greatswords. I've seen Bastard Swords. It's probably the closest to the latter, but still definitely not one). I'd be able to finish my mental therapy and put the issues behind me if I could have the confusion over rules of Monkey Grip removed. I've been trying to read as much as I can (I've got my Tome of Battle, Complete Adventurer, I and II of the Player's Handbook, and Complete Warrior under my pillow for the War Blade stuffs, since I've been trying to draw stuff from all of it for my character), and between them and what I've read here, I'm admitedly still not fully understanding... I've got Proficiency with the Weapon, and Medium to Large is just a 1 step difference. I'd need the Feat to wield a 2 handed weapon with that difference, or I couldn't consider it at all (I know I can use the item and get the same effect, but there's just something about such a glaring weakness that I just don't like (or maybe I just have a dislike of Magic Items baring those that give me a dirrect boost to my stats), even if the same weakness applies to the oversized sky-scraper in question... Uncle Xykon made me think about it, even if his rant talks about just spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)), and the feat gives me a -2 for it. The total penalty should be -4, then. I don't see anything about penalties replacing each other, or a penalty about inappropriately sized weapons beyond the -2 per step of difference... I'll never be as cool as Jack Rakan.... (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_sensei_negima/v22/c200/8.html) I want my Big Freaking Sword! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BFS) Although again, I'm willing to settle for a Great Sword if I can just figure out all of this random stuff over Monkey Grip that's so dang confusing...

Continuous Ranting over a Feat that I've been warned repeatedly to not take due to it making me weaker (not that the DM's monsters will know about after they've been sliced, nor that the rest of the party would mind; that's probably the biggest reason I've been wanting the Feat: I like having strong as heck characters, but fights have already broken out over members of the party eclipsing other characters, be it in role playing or in combat, and considering my only other rival in terms of power is a character trading away some of his spell casting power in exchange for the ability to fight in melee, and everyone else is drastically below me in power yet unwilling to min max their character beyond the initial dice roll or unwilling to try a different class [not that I'd condone people switching classes just for power; this is suppost to be fun], making sure my own character is flavorful, but has ways of not owning in combat [already having royal connections is bad enough in Role Playing, so I'm not even going to try to extend my authority there baring assisting the GM in railroading for the sake of moving up the game] is probably the best thing I could do to not start up fights and such. I don't intend to suck (or else I'd do much worse to screw myself over), but making sure I'm good but not too good seems like a nice aim), I've got a few last questions before I try to post a chart to show my plans for this character (so much for not ranting about it anymore; that was a dosey! XD):

I finally remember my earlier question I had! I never did much multi attacking as a Druid (Turn into an Elemental or some stage of Dragon and shoot some Lightning Swarms at People and the need for multiple attacks dies down rather fast), so the rules of bonus attacks (which I don't seem to realise in reading the manual) escape me. Do I have to wait until +6/+1 Base Attack Bonus to be able to strike my enemies a second time? Or can I get it at +5/+0? Stupid Question is Stupid, but lingering doubt and messing up in game time with rules deliberation is even stupider (I'm some combination of the team leader / rules lawyer / team heart, at least when I'm not making things worse)...

Am I allowed to drop moves and add moves in other fighting styles and still be able to have the new move picked? That was overly complicated; this should be a more simple asking: If I take a maneuver with 7 prerequisite maneuvers required, and trade off some of those maneuvers eventually, can I still have the aforementioned 7 prerequisite maneuver? If that wasn’t clear enough (and looking back, I don’t think it was), then this should be (if not, I’m probably just screwed): If I take enough Maneuvers to qualify for Time Stands Still, then trade away all but Time Stands Still for other fighting style moves (not like I’d do that completely, just asking), would I be able to do that? Or would the prerequisite for number of Diamond Mind Maneuvers prevent me from being able to use it?

Random Question… How can a Warblade Learn a 3rd Level *Stance* (sorry about that) at WarBlade Level 4? It’s in the Tome of Battle for the sample dwarf, too, yet by the logic of not being able to learn a new move at an older junction, you’d think he’d have to pick a 1st level maneuver…

I know I seem -very- retarded right now, having what seems like very remedial items brought up over and over, and not getting it the first time. Sorry for troubling and annoying you all so damn long, and thanks for all of the assistance you've given me!

Keld Denar
2011-01-31, 03:29 PM
I'm willing to settle for a Great Sword if I can just figure out all of this random stuff over Monkey Grip that's so dang confusing...
Ok, so you are somewhat right. Using a weapon one size up imposes a -2 penalty. It also increases the level of effort, though, which is what the feat reduces. If you take a large sized longsword, its normally a 2handed weapon (whereas a medium longsword is a 1handed weapon). When you increase the size by one catagory, you increase the level of effort by one catagory. Since there is no catagory above 2handed, and a greatsword is ALREADY 2handed, a human can not wield a large greatsword. Enter Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip allows you to use a weapon one size larger without increasing the level of effort. It doesn't remove the -2 penalty for using a weapon one size larger, as stated in the feat. The -2 penalty mentioned in the feat is the same -2 penalty mentioned in the rules for using a weapon one size larger. Don't add it again, you've already accounted for it once. Its simply reminding you to do that.


I finally remember my earlier question I had! I never did much multi attacking as a Druid (Turn into an Elemental or some stage of Dragon and shoot some Lightning Swarms at People and the need for multiple attacks dies down rather fast), so the rules of bonus attacks (which I don't seem to realise in reading the manual) escape me. Do I have to wait until +6/+1 Base Attack Bonus to be able to strike my enemies a second time? Or can I get it at +5/+0? Stupid Question is Stupid, but lingering doubt and messing up in game time with rules deliberation is even stupider (I'm some combination of the team leader / rules lawyer / team heart, at least when I'm not making things worse)...
You are using some terms here, and I don't think you know what they mean. Multiattacking is generally used when you make attacks with the Multiattack feat. Multiattack just reduces the penalties associated with attacking with secondary natural weapons. Natural attacks work VERY differently than manufactured weapons. Since your Warblade probably doesn't have any natural attacks, I'm going to assume that you mean iterative attacks. Iterative attacks are made when you full attack. Look at the BAB entry for Warblade. Every time there is a new column of attacks, you get an extra iterative attack. You get one at +6 (+6/+1), you get one at +11 (+11/+6/+1), and you get one at +16 (+16/+11/+6/+1). You do not get one at +5. You usually can't combine strikes with iterative attacks though, as strikes typically take a standard action to execute, and you only get your iterative attacks when you full attack.

Am I allowed to drop moves and add moves in other fighting styles and still be able to have the new move picked? That was overly complicated; this should be a more simple asking: If I take a maneuver with 7 prerequisite maneuvers required, and trade off some of those maneuvers eventually, can I still have the aforementioned 7 prerequisite maneuver? If that wasn’t clear enough (and looking back, I don’t think it was), then this should be (if not, I’m probably just screwed): If I take enough Maneuvers to qualify for Time Stands Still, then trade away all but Time Stands Still for other fighting style moves (not like I’d do that completely, just asking), would I be able to do that? Or would the prerequisite for number of Diamond Mind Maneuvers prevent me from being able to use it?
Maneuvers are unlike any other prereq in D&D. You do not have to maintain the prereqs to continue to use the maneuver. It only needs to be met when you gain the maneuver. In fact, you can even count a maneuver you are trading away as a maneuver known WRT to the maneuver you are learning. For example, White Raven Tactics requires 1 WR maneuver known. If you know Tactical Strike, you know one WR maneuver. When you hit Warblade6, you can swap out a maneuver known for a new maneuver. You can legally trade Tactical Strike for White Raven Tactics, since Tactical Strike counts itself on the way out. If you traded Tactical Strike for say...Insightful Strike (a Diamond Mind manevuer), and you later wanted to pick up White Raven Tactics, you would be out of luck, and would first have to learn another WR maneuver prior to learning it.

Random Question… How can a Warblade Learn a 3rd Level Maneuver at WarBlade Level 4? It’s in the Tome of Battle for the sample dwarf, too, yet by the logic of not being able to learn a new move at an older junction, you’d think he’d have to pick a 1st level maneuver…
Yea...theres a pretty wide consensus that ToB screwed up, and that Warblades are supposed to get their 2nd stance at level 5, not level 4. Some play this way, some play by the book. If you have to play by the book, consider sliding 2 levels of something (Fighter or Barb work well) between Warblade1 and Warblade4, so that your IL is 5 when you hit WB4 and you can pick up a 3rd level stance, provided you want one.

Hope this helps.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-31, 03:38 PM
My dreams of having a blade as big and awesome as this (http://ninjagaiden.wikia.com/wiki/Enma%27s_Fang) badass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQBsQ-BObM8&feature=related) Mother (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOiAxoy5HjQ&feature=related) ****er's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFSsAcQG5yE) is all but dead now (ignore them saying that's just a long sword. I've seen long swords. I've seen greatswords. I've seen Bastard Swords. It's probably the closest to the latter, but still definitely not one). I'd be able to finish my mental therapy and put the issues behind me if I could have the confusion over rules of Monkey Grip removed. I've been trying to read as much as I can (I've got my Tome of Battle, Complete Adventurer, I and II of the Player's Handbook, and Complete Warrior under my pillow for the War Blade stuffs, since I've been trying to draw stuff from all of it for my character), and between them and what I've read here, I'm admitedly still not fully understanding... I've got Proficiency with the Weapon, and Medium to Large is just a 1 step difference. I'd need the Feat to wield a 2 handed weapon with that difference, or I couldn't consider it at all (I know I can use the item and get the same effect, but there's just something about such a glaring weakness that I just don't like (or maybe I just have a dislike of Magic Items baring those that give me a dirrect boost to my stats), even if the same weakness applies to the oversized sky-scraper in question... Uncle Xykon made me think about it, even if his rant talks about just spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)), and the feat gives me a -2 for it. The total penalty should be -4, then. I don't see anything about penalties replacing each other, or a penalty about inappropriately sized weapons beyond the -2 per step of difference... I'll never be as cool as Jack Rakan.... (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_sensei_negima/v22/c200/8.html) I want my Big Freaking Sword! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BFS) Although again, I'm willing to settle for a Great Sword if I can just figure out all of this random stuff over Monkey Grip that's so dang confusing...You can't use a large two-handed weapon. If you have Monkey Grip, you can use a large two-handed weapon, with a -2 penalty to hit. That's all you need to know (and that the feat sucks like Dodge or Toughness).

Continuous Ranting over a Feat that I've been warned repeatedly to not take due to it making me weaker (not that the DM's monsters will know about after they've been sliced, nor that the rest of the party would mind; that's probably the biggest reason I've been wanting the Feat: I like having strong as heck characters, but fights have already broken out over members of the party eclipsing other characters, be it in role playing or in combat, and considering my only other rival in terms of power is a character trading away some of his spell casting power in exchange for the ability to fight in melee, and everyone else is drastically below me in power yet unwilling to min max their character beyond the initial dice roll or unwilling to try a different class [not that I'd condone people switching classes just for power; this is suppost to be fun], making sure my own character is flavorful, but has ways of not owning in combat [already having royal connections is bad enough in Role Playing, so I'm not even going to try to extend my authority there baring assisting the GM in railroading for the sake of moving up the game] is probably the best thing I could do to not start up fights and such. I don't intend to suck (or else I'd do much worse to screw myself over), but making sure I'm good but not too good seems like a nice aim), I've got a few last questions before I try to post a chart to show my plans for this character (so much for not ranting about it anymore; that was a dosey! XD):If you want to "screw" yourself over "in a funny and joking way", just give yourself a penalty to hit and justify it with whatever inane reason you'd come up with. Like being suddenly blinded by the shiny reflection on the sole clean spot of the ogre's dirty armour and receiving a -10 penalty to hit or something like that (and without any benefit for taking such a penalty). Or that suddenly, you start daydreaming about how your instructor always yells at you for daydreaming in combat, and giving you -((2d6^3)-(the prime number of a 1d8-roll)π) penalty at random (every round, roll a 2d6 - at a result of 3 and more, your character starts daydreaming).

I finally remember my earlier question I had! I never did much multi attacking as a Druid (Turn into an Elemental or some stage of Dragon and shoot some Lightning Swarms at People and the need for multiple attacks dies down rather fast), so the rules of bonus attacks (which I don't seem to realise in reading the manual) escape me. Do I have to wait until +6/+1 Base Attack Bonus to be able to strike my enemies a second time? Or can I get it at +5/+0? Stupid Question is Stupid, but lingering doubt and messing up in game time with rules deliberation is even stupider (I'm some combination of the team leader / rules lawyer / team heart, at least when I'm not making things worse)...You only get your second following iterative attack at a full +6 bonus. So it's +6/+1. This iterative attack can of course only be used in a full-round action, like full attack.

Am I allowed to drop moves and add moves in other fighting styles and still be able to have the new move picked? That was overly complicated; this should be a more simple asking: If I take a maneuver with 7 prerequisite maneuvers required, and trade off some of those maneuvers eventually, can I still have the aforementioned 7 prerequisite maneuver? If that wasn’t clear enough (and looking back, I don’t think it was), then this should be (if not, I’m probably just screwed): If I take enough Maneuvers to qualify for Time Stands Still, then trade away all but Time Stands Still for other fighting style moves (not like I’d do that completely, just asking), would I be able to do that? Or would the prerequisite for number of Diamond Mind Maneuvers prevent me from being able to use it?That's the one thing that differentiates maneuvers from feats. The number of prerequisite maneuvers are only needed by the time you get to choose the maneuver.


Random Question… How can a Warblade Learn a 3rd Level Maneuver at WarBlade Level 4? It’s in the Tome of Battle for the sample dwarf, too, yet by the logic of not being able to learn a new move at an older junction, you’d think he’d have to pick a 1st level maneuver…Are you talking about Vardalak Axebearer? He's a martial adept level 5, and by the table 3-1 on page 39, is eligible for 1 3rd-level maneuver. However, the example character does have a mistake upon him. He has 1 3rd-level stance, which he couldn't have taken at level 4. Unless he "delayed" taking a stance until he was level 5, but as far as I know, that's not really allowed.

I know I seem -very- retarded right now, having what seems like very remedial items brought up over and over, and not getting it the first time. Sorry for troubling and annoying you all so damn long, and thanks for all of the assistance you've given me!Forget monkey grip. Take the items that people told you to get. Having that item is not a weakness, it's a necessity to function and to combine your envisioned schtick. If it gets taken away from you, so will all your other items that you need (and will later need at higher levels) to survive.

Kyuu Himura
2011-01-31, 05:22 PM
OK, one thing at the time:

Monkey Grip: You take a -2 to hit, you can use your Large Greatsword, as simple as that, no other penalty, -2 to hit -> Large Greatsword, just that, nothing else to it.


Iterative Attacks: You get an iterative attack at Base Attack bonus +6/+1, then another at +11/+6/+1, then another at +16/+11/+6/+1. That's it.

As for your big freaking Sword needs... have you considered Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade?? the fullblade does 2d8 damage and is in the Arms and Equipment guide I think.

Hope it helps

EDIT: You know what's funny about ninjas?? they are everywhere, just now, they are in this forum, and in my Daredevil comics. funny.

Draz74
2011-01-31, 05:42 PM
Yea...theres a pretty wide consensus that ToB screwed up, and that Warblades are supposed to get their 2nd stance at level 5, not level 4. Some play this way, some play by the book. If you have to play by the book, consider sliding 2 levels of something (Fighter or Barb work well) between Warblade1 and Warblade4, so that your IL is 5 when you hit WB4 and you can pick up a 3rd level stance, provided you want one.

Or ... just take two Level 1 stances, since they're generally better than Level 3 stances anyway. :smallconfused:

AnonymousD&Der
2011-02-01, 01:41 PM
Lets see...

Race:Human. Class:Warblade 20. Base Stats18,14,16,14,12,10 (in order).
Base HP:15. Alignment:Chaotic Good. Languages:Common, Dwarven, Elven.
Skills: Concetration, Jump, Listen, Tumble, Spot, Balance, Misc.
Possessions: Medium Masterwork (if permited) Great Sword, Bag of Holding I.
More Possessions: 800PP (In Bag In Bag of Holding), Gloves of Ogre Power.
MP2: Studded Leather Light Armor, Traveler's Outfit, Roleplaying Goods (in BoH).

As for the main combat stuff....

Level|Move Level|Gain|Lose|Stance|Feats (Bonus)
1|1st|Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind|-|Punishing Stance|Power Attack, (Cleave)
2|1st|Steely Strike|-|-|-
3|2nd|Action Before Thought|-|-|Improved Bull Rush
4|2nd|Wall of Blades|Steely Strike|-|-
5|3rd|Iron Heart Surge|-|-|(Improved Initiative)
6|3rd|Insightful Strike|Sapphire Nightmare Blade|Absolute Steel|Leap Attack
7|4th|Bounding Assault|-|-|-
8|4th|Mithral Tornado|Steel Wind|-|-
9|5th|Ruby Nightmare Blade|-|-|Shock Trooper, (Combat Reflexes)
10|5th|-|-|-|-
11|6th|Moment of Alacrity|-|Dancing Blade Form|-
12|6th|Greater Insightful Strike|Insightful Strike|-|Robilar's Gambit
13|7th|Avalanche of Blades|-|-|(Blind Fight)
14|7th|Quicksilver Motion|Bounding Assault|-|-
15|8th|Finishing Move|-|-|Adaptive Style
16|8th|Adamantine Hurricane|Mithral Tornado|Stance of Alacrity|-
17|9th|Strike of Perfect Clarity|-|-|(Iron Heart Aura)
18|9th|Diamond Nightmare Blade|Ruby Nightmare Blade|-|Leap of the Heavens
19|9th|Lightning Throw|-|-|-
20|9th|Time Stands Still|Avalanche of Blades|-|-


Any thing noticably commentable, or does everything look good? Feats and Moves stacking up okay? Thanks for the help so far, and thanks for any continued assistance!

Personal Comments: Desite Leap of the Heavens being a bit fillerish, I finally skipped sacrificing a Feat to get a Bigger Sword, and picked out the rest of the feats from what I could tell worked. I did eventually find those defensive feats I was told about earlier, and would have genuinly considered the two of them to allow me to pick out and guard members of my team, but the range for being able to help them was 10 feet.... Yeah no. Item of Cure X Wounds + Bounding Assault / Quick Silver Motion. Kill whoever's targeting them, and then worry about healing them if we've got a spare minute.

Also, when I sat down and looked, I had no room for Desert Wind Maneuvers. Diamond Mind is awesome, and Iron Heart is even More awesome. So much for Sword Beams (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SwordBeam), but I'll get over it. Cuting people to death is just as good. So I've been given the right to use the Warblade as is... although that makes me wonder about the other Warblade Style Attacks. Here we go again! :smallbiggrin: But nah, I'ma stick with mostly these, if I can. Heck, I had too many awesome moves at 10th level to want to trade them away, and most moves after that have just been expansions! How'm I gonna wrap my mind around another set of fighting styles!?! :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully, I'd assume all of my dump points from level ups would go into my Strength.... what other Magic Items increase Strength? And for that matter, Concentration? Maintaining Mental Focus seems to be a requirement of this fighting style, not that there's a problem with being able to focus in battle...

This chart and info is probably going to be good for a while... but what would happen if the Warblade went Epic? Would I just dip into other Maneuvers and continue other Warblade Class Habbits (New Move every Odd Level, Replace a Move Every Even Level, New Move Readed Every 5 Levels, New Stance Every 5 Levels, Bonus Feat every 4 and regular Feat every 3, tell me if I've got something wrong or am missing something)? And yeah, the DM modified when I learn my 3rd and 5th level stances, although I honestly don't think it's too much of a nerf (not that I have a say in the matter).

I've probably forgotten 3 other different things I wanted to ask... if I remember them, I'll ask, but if not, then they probably weren't important enough to ask in the first place... Thanks for the assist, guys! I'm gonna post this sucker on my first post.

Keld Denar
2011-02-01, 02:19 PM
I'm not a HUGE fan of Action Before Thought. Con is important for a Warblade, so you'll have a fair number of HP. Failing reflex saves generally isn't the end of the world.

Leap of the Heavens at that point is VERY fillerific. Especially since you'll probably be flying 90+% of the time. I'd try to slide in a bit of Mage Slayer if you can. You have Blindfighting as a WB bonus feat, which makes Pierce Magical Concealment nearly a no-brainer. Being able to lawl at Mirror Image or Greater Blinking is top notch.

Also, I know you like swords, but would you consider a polearm? A glaive is only a slight step down in damage from the greatsword, but reach is HUGE. Seriously. Even without Combat Reflexes, you can often score 1-2 free hits per combat just from the reach, and the reach will help you land blows with Steel Wind and even Cleave more often. Against large foes like Ogre and Giants and stuff, your reach weapon will counter their reach advantage, saving you from potentially a few extra hits, which could save your life. Kinda doesn't work with Robilar's Gambit, but is still a very strong option, especially for the levels leading up to 12. Straight away at 1st level, it can give you a HUGE boon.

There is no epic progression for ToB, unless someone has homebrewed something. Not really sure what you'd do there.

DeltaEmil
2011-02-01, 02:36 PM
Because there is no official epic warblade level progression, you would have to take other martial adept levels or prestige classes from Tome of Battle to continue receiving maneuvers, or take a feat.

Iron Heart Aura is not that good, unless you really intend to stay adjacent to your companions, who are the only ones to benefit from that feat, and you don't seem to take it as a prerequisite for Stormguard Warrior. Then again, after taking Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative, which are the most worthwile feats in the selection, the only other "worthwile" feat to take would be Quick-Draw, and only if you're throwing stuff like javelins, tridents, short spears and other similar thrown weapons quickly aside from using your lightning throw maneuver.

Also, I'd advise to take Blind-Fight before Improved Initiative. As a warblade, you'll get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge soon enough at level 2 and 6 so that you won't have to worry about being flat-footed or sneak-attacked. Unless your gm really likes to throw really superhard encounters where being the first to act is superimportant, then disregard this advice.

Draz74
2011-02-01, 02:58 PM
One thing you should realize is that, at this point, all the feedback you're going to get is little nitpicks and tweaks. If you've got a pure Warblade, focused on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, and you've gotten rid of any feats worse than Leap of the Heavens (like Monkey Grip), then you are going to be plenty powerful and functional in most any campaign. Feel free to keep refining the little details of your character if you want, but don't stress about it too much. :smallsmile:

AnonymousD&Der
2011-02-01, 05:31 PM
I'm not a HUGE fan of Action Before Thought. Con is important for a Warblade, so you'll have a fair number of HP. Failing reflex saves generally isn't the end of the world.

The only real thing I'd replace it with would be maybe IronHeart Focus (if I fail a roll once, I feel like I'd probably fail it again, and I'd sooner just take the first result, not to mention Concentration's already being milked as much as possible and prevents the save from being an automatic failure) or maybe Rapid Counter (more likely, since it lets me have an extra attack, used for saving my Attacks of Opportunity on other targets or to hit the solo target twice or more for hitting me). Although part of me still wants to err on the side of cautious and stay with Action Before Thought (then again, another attack not on my turn suddenly seems -amazing- now that I think about it).


Leap of the Heavens at that point is VERY fillerific. Especially since you'll probably be flying 90+% of the time. I'd try to slide in a bit of Mage Slayer if you can. You have Blindfighting as a WB bonus feat, which makes Pierce Magical Concealment nearly a no-brainer. Being able to lawl at Mirror Image or Greater Blinking is top notch.

Also, I know you like swords, but would you consider a polearm? A glaive is only a slight step down in damage from the greatsword, but reach is HUGE. Seriously. Even without Combat Reflexes, you can often score 1-2 free hits per combat just from the reach, and the reach will help you land blows with Steel Wind and even Cleave more often. Against large foes like Ogre and Giants and stuff, your reach weapon will counter their reach advantage, saving you from potentially a few extra hits, which could save your life. Kinda doesn't work with Robilar's Gambit, but is still a very strong option, especially for the levels leading up to 12. Straight away at 1st level, it can give you a HUGE boon.

God Damn You and your Tempting Feats!! Just when I was finally ready to settle down, I get more damn ideas! All those options on the front pages are so tempting, too... That Three Mountain Styles, and then Eric's Brutal Strike thing.... And then options that would allow the GM to make a Spell Casting Big Bad Evil Guy easier to defeat, giving him more right to make it slightly stronger... But I'm not sure how I'd be able to factor it in... I might have to sacrifice Robilar's Gambit to fit it in.. and since I'm not giving up my Great Sword for -ANYTHING-, I'd probably have to take the feat for weapon changing to factor it in, giving up Leap of the Heavens (which I actually wanted to take a bit earlier, if only because of how awesome such a technique sounds...) for any other prerequisites... If I did decide to incorperate Three Mountain Styles (and possibly Brutal Strike as well), I'd probably give up IronHeart Aura for QuickDraw. I should mull it over and think about it.. Dear Lord, I'm back to my Ranseur, Great Club, and Great Sword dilema I had earlier earlier. Damn it!!! Glad I got over Monkey Grip, or I'd probably be trying to figure out how to use all three weapons a size bigger than myself. :smallamused:

Quickie Edit: The only reason I didn't take to the idea of a Glaive is because a Sword on a Stick is definitely fun, but I've already got a nice slashy weapon, I feel like I should have a staby weapon instead of a second slashy one. Does it matter particularly?


There is no epic progression for ToB, unless someone has homebrewed something. Not really sure what you'd do there.

I might ask the DM about what we'd do for some of these spare classes as well. We're already going to upgrade one of the classes; looking at what I'd do once I become Epic is certainly an option... for now, since even getting that far might take a dang long while, we'll just play with what we've got... I saw a couple of links on this website about Epic Warblades, but I was wondering about the official Epic Warblade. (too bad it doesn't exist. :smallfrown: )


Because there is no official epic warblade level progression, you would have to take other martial adept levels or prestige classes from Tome of Battle to continue receiving maneuvers, or take a feat.

It seriously won't let you level up and just take more feats and maneuvers and such with Warblade 21+? Depressing Depression is Depressing... Think the GM would let me if I asked Nicely? Wizards get Epic Spells; the closest Fighter Class onpar with them (even if still several levels away) should be able to continue his studies.... ah well; even if I can't do that, I doubt there'd be too much issue with Multiclassing at Warblade 20... heck, I might take some Fighter Levels for Bonus Feats to use on random stuff. :smallbiggrin: But yeah, we'll figure something out...


Iron Heart Aura is not that good, unless you really intend to stay adjacent to your companions, who are the only ones to benefit from that feat, and you don't seem to take it as a prerequisite for Stormguard Warrior. Then again, after taking Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative, which are the most worthwile feats in the selection, the only other "worthwile" feat to take would be Quick-Draw, and only if you're throwing stuff like javelins, tridents, short spears and other similar thrown weapons quickly aside from using your lightning throw maneuver.

I'm not all certain on what and how I'd do with Storm Guard Warrior (although with a name like that, I sure as heck should be researching it! :smallamused: ) Considering that there's nothing wrong with being RP Capable, if I really wanted to replace Iron Heart Aura and couldn't focus on anything else behind the Power Attack Stuff, I might actually take Endurance. I get to sleep in my Armor, and I'm protected from the various non-lethal damage bull you'd have to deal with in all sorts of hazardous regions.


Also, I'd advise to take Blind-Fight before Improved Initiative. As a warblade, you'll get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge soon enough at level 2 and 6 so that you won't have to worry about being flat-footed or sneak-attacked. Unless your gm really likes to throw really superhard encounters where being the first to act is superimportant, then disregard this advice.

If I take Blind Fight before Improved Initiative, I feel I may as well not take Improved Initiative, since I'll have a bonus that lets me increase my Initiative by 20 by that point. Or should that move be replaced (too bad the few other moves not listed at that rank are Iron Heart Endurance {we've got a medic with a Unicorn by that point, if I remember her class being just upgraded, not altered}), Emerald Razor {eh... I'm not too sure about it, but it seems workable}, Mind Strike and Disrupting Blow {I don't feel like much of a Debuffer/Stunner})?


One thing you should realize is that, at this point, all the feedback you're going to get is little nitpicks and tweaks. If you've got a pure Warblade, focused on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, and you've gotten rid of any feats worse than Leap of the Heavens (like Monkey Grip), then you are going to be plenty powerful and functional in most any campaign. Feel free to keep refining the little details of your character if you want, but don't stress about it too much. :smallsmile:

Hopefully I haven't been steping over myself and just making more and more mistakes (although I have the nagging feeling that what I've said this latest responce have been mistakes, too. :smallwink:).... if I've ****ed up my self by now,though, I can only assume that it would have been caught already and I'd have been beaten about the neck and shoulders for it.

Keld Denar
2011-02-01, 06:04 PM
Honestly, I'd ditch Adaptive Style for Mage Slayer, then take Pierce Magical Concealment instead of Leap of the Heavens. Its a bit late, but better nate than level, IMO. Adaptive Style is more for Swordsages than Warblades, and while sometimes changing to that clutch maneuver would make the combat easier, the lost round could be spent just powering through the encounter with the maneuvers you have for a roughly similar result.

And again, unless you are fighting an excessive amount of dragons, I think you'll get much better mileage out of not having Action Before Thought.

Three Mountains is better for a non-ToBer. With most strikes, you won't be making more than one swing per round. With the strikes where you will be making multiple attacks, either they will be spread out (Mithril Tornado), or you won't really want to PA on (Avalanche of Blades). Thus, I'd caution you away from trying to incorporate that.

I'd go with a falchion as a primary weapon over the greatsword. Fluff-wise, they are both about the same size. Falchion trades ~1 average damage per hit for one extra point of crit threat range. While crits won't double your +xd6 damage strikes, it'll pay off a lot when you PA with Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Strike or Strike of Perfect Clarity or a few others. PA damage multiplies pleasantly.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-02-01, 08:12 PM
Honestly, I'd ditch Adaptive Style for Mage Slayer, then take Pierce Magical Concealment instead of Leap of the Heavens. Its a bit late, but better nate than level, IMO. Adaptive Style is more for Swordsages than Warblades, and while sometimes changing to that clutch maneuver would make the combat easier, the lost round could be spent just powering through the encounter with the maneuvers you have for a roughly similar result.

I was actually planing on considering letting the group Sorc take on other Sorcs. Spell Caster vs Spell Caster, ya know? And being able to switch from Spin Attacks back to Single Hits and still keep a Healty set of Counters based on who or what or howmany I'm fighting... I'm actually wondering where a good spot would be to move the feats down to get Adaptive Style up sooner... maybe around 5th Level, since by that point I pretty much have all of my moves I want to know, and from then on I'm just upgrading what I can do (except Lightning Throw. That's definitely not added awesome. That's ****ing awesome on it's own). But I'ma get into the game a bit and see what's happening. If the DM has us going from adventuring to Magic Fighting, Barrier Busting certainly isn't a bad use of Feats.


And again, unless you are fighting an excessive amount of dragons, I think you'll get much better mileage out of not having Action Before Thought.

I'll see how the campaigns are going. If there's no sign of me having to charge the Red Dragon, then I'll probably switch it for Rapid Counter when I can. 'sa good half way point to see if I'm screwed or not. Heck, maybe back to Emerald Razor for the ability to do a Massive Power Attack Boosted Cut on my target.


Three Mountains is better for a non-ToBer. With most strikes, you won't be making more than one swing per round. With the strikes where you will be making multiple attacks, either they will be spread out (Mithril Tornado), or you won't really want to PA on (Avalanche of Blades). Thus, I'd caution you away from trying to incorporate that.

I suppose if this character dies and no one is willing to go on an epic quest to revive him, then he can be avenged / legacied by one of the students he studied along side... maybe his teacher (which would explain why said Teacher appears with enough levels to rejoin the group). Probably a generic fighter, though, although some of these more interesting feat idea combinations would let him not completely suck (and if the Warblade did die, it'd probably be because the DM was sufficiently ticked off at how he played, so a fighter would probably keep me out of trouble for a bit).


I'd go with a falchion as a primary weapon over the greatsword. Fluff-wise, they are both about the same size. Falchion trades ~1 average damage per hit for one extra point of crit threat range. While crits won't double your +xd6 damage strikes, it'll pay off a lot when you PA with Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Strike or Strike of Perfect Clarity or a few others. PA damage multiplies pleasantly.

I do not -ever- rely on Criticals. Critical Hits are fun, and a very happy bonus when I do get them, but unless there's a way to design my fighter around Criticals and make them not occur every bloody rainbow moon, No. My chances of getting Criticals are about this high (http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/the-hell-forecast.html). Even if I had a bit extra chance of scoring a critical hit, the chances that it'll work for me during a roll I could really take advantage of it are still pretty damn low (http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/the-hell-forecast.html). Cool as it may be in D&D (despite the real life version being more like the Long Sword or the Scimitar), I'd have to adjust to remembering that they upgraded the size of it in game. I'd be too used to the sucker just seeming kinda small... I'm looking for something I'd more easily recognise as being in the Zweihander family. For the sake of Roleplaying Purposes, I think I'll stick with the Great Sword.

Sorry if I sounded like an ass. And thanks for all of your help so far.

One (http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/1053547/ONE+MORE+THING/) More (http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/615164/ONE+MORE+THING/) Thing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoKeudWrFfY). Iron Heart Surge. I can take anything still effecting me during the round that I get hit by it, probably still likely to be affecting me within the next few rounds, like Poison or a Damage-Over-Time Spell, and No-Sale it? Or am I just misreading it?

Tael
2011-02-01, 10:09 PM
I do not -ever- rely on Criticals. Critical Hits are fun, and a very happy bonus when I do get them, but unless there's a way to design my fighter around Criticals and make them not occur every bloody rainbow moon, No. My chances of getting Criticals are about this high (http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/the-hell-forecast.html). Even if I had a bit extra chance of scoring a critical hit, the chances that it'll work for me during a roll I could really take advantage of it are still pretty damn low (http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/the-hell-forecast.html). Cool as it may be in D&D (despite the real life version being more like the Long Sword or the Scimitar), I'd have to adjust to remembering that they upgraded the size of it in game. I'd be too used to the sucker just seeming kinda small... I'm looking for something I'd more easily recognise as being in the Zweihander family. For the sake of Roleplaying Purposes, I think I'll stick with the Great Sword.

Sorry if I sounded like an ass. And thanks for all of your help so far.


Keld is giving you good advice. The change from Greatsword to falchion nets you more damage on average, as 5% more crit chance is a hell of a lot better than 2 extra damage at higher levels. If you like the idea of wielding a greatsword more, go for it, but fachions are pretty much strictly better in most cases.

Also, if you realize you sound enough like an ass to add a note to the end of your post, just edit your f***ing post.

Keld Denar
2011-02-01, 10:13 PM
IHS is actually worded very very very poorly. As written, its useful against like, 3 effects. Note that you can only initiate maneuvers when you can move, so you can't use it while held or paralyzed. You can't use it when you aren't in control of your actions, such as while dominated or feared. You can't use it if you are denied taking a standard action, such as with nausiated, dazed, or stunned.

That means you can use IHS to end slow, sicken, enfeeble, fatigue/exhausted, low level fears like shaken, and debatably entanglement. Thats only a handful of effects, hardly worth it. There's also the REALLY liberal reading in which you can do silly things like end the sun, or halt a flowing river, or other equally rediculous events.

I'd talk to your DM if you want to use it. According to pop culture like Conan, it SHOULD work against things like dominate, fear, paralysis, daze, stun, and the like, but not work against the rediculous things.

Also, it looks like you are underestimating the power of Pierce Magical Concealment. Its seriously really good. It works for a lot of things, not just other mages. Things like Displacer Beasts and many outsiders with SLAs are thing you'll probably have to take on. Its good to have options in case the sorc is foolish with his spell selection or is low on slots or whatever. A trick you can use with it, is to get a Ring of Blinking. With PMC, you negate all miss chance due to magic. Blink normally gives YOU a 20% miss chance to hit your foes, and your foes a 50% miss chance to hit you. Thus, if you have PMC, you get the benefit of 50% miss chance without the drawback of the 20% miss chance!

And trust me, you'll find that life will be just fine without Adaptive Style. Its something you'll realize as you play.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-02-01, 10:48 PM
GOD DAMN RANDOM ASS COMPATABILITY VIEW BULL **** FORCING RESETS ON MY RESPONCES! :smallfurious: Eh, screw it. I got time to burn. :smallcool:


Keld is giving you good advice. The change from Greatsword to falchion nets you more damage on average, as 5% more crit chance is a hell of a lot better than 2 extra damage at higher levels. If you like the idea of wielding a greatsword more, go for it, but fachions are pretty much strictly better in most cases.

I swear to God, the -SECOND- I decide to make the switch, Lady Luck will gag on her Olive, cough it up back into her drink, look down, notice me, and then give me attack rolls crapy enough that the team Healer will do more damage than me, let alone deny me my chance to do Criticals. She -hates- me. Vendictive little B****.

With that said, I'm willing to give it a shot, I suppose. I should try some practice rolls and see how lucky I am.... if I'm not too bad off, a Falchion does sound cooler than a Great Sword.... Feel like I should have a Bird Motif wielding that thing.


Also, if you realize you sound enough like an ass to add a note to the end of your post, just edit your f***ing post.

The comment at the end of my post was in responce to a rant I was going to give about dang nerdy weapon history (whatever biased little of it I've recieved through random reading). I decided it wasn't really needed to the main points of the responces, especially considering how differently D&D handled the Falchion Size compared to about how big they are in real life (I may be wrong, but aren't they basically Butterfly Knives?), but I forgot to delete that las tpart, looking bad. I don't think I sounded like an ass with the way the rest of the post was edited...


IHS is actually worded very very very poorly. As written, its useful against like, 3 effects. Note that you can only initiate maneuvers when you can move, so you can't use it while held or paralyzed. You can't use it when you aren't in control of your actions, such as while dominated or feared. You can't use it if you are denied taking a standard action, such as with nausiated, dazed, or stunned.

That means you can use IHS to end slow, sicken, enfeeble, fatigue/exhausted, low level fears like shaken, and debatably entanglement. Thats only a handful of effects, hardly worth it. There's also the REALLY liberal reading in which you can do silly things like end the sun, or halt a flowing river, or other equally rediculous events.

I'd talk to your DM if you want to use it. According to pop culture like Conan, it SHOULD work against things like dominate, fear, paralysis, daze, stun, and the like, but not work against the rediculous things.

Holy ****, I totally do need to have it Clarified.... or I should switch to a different move, definitely. One of our members had a friend who used such translations to break the game, and while I do like a little bit of Optimizing, I try to do it within the rules. As cool as Iron Heart Surge sounds, I don't think I'd be able to get away with being able to block darn near anything I wanted to... for the sake of speeding the game along, I might just ignore it and keep Emerald Razor at that level instead....


Also, it looks like you are underestimating the power of Pierce Magical Concealment. Its seriously really good. It works for a lot of things, not just other mages. Things like Displacer Beasts and many outsiders with SLAs are thing you'll probably have to take on. Its good to have options in case the sorc is foolish with his spell selection or is low on slots or whatever. A trick you can use with it, is to get a Ring of Blinking. With PMC, you negate all miss chance due to magic. Blink normally gives YOU a 20% miss chance to hit your foes, and your foes a 50% miss chance to hit you. Thus, if you have PMC, you get the benefit of 50% miss chance without the drawback of the 20% miss chance!

And trust me, you'll find that life will be just fine without Adaptive Style. Its something you'll realize as you play.

I like the sound of that.... but I'll have to see what the GM says... might get on to me for it. :smallamused:

And but... but... but... So many Moves, So Little Knowledge Slots! :smallfrown: I've got plenty of time to see what's going to happen, though, so I'ma go look for the Mage Slaying Feats and ear-mark them.

Chen
2011-02-02, 01:56 PM
I'd go with a falchion as a primary weapon over the greatsword. Fluff-wise, they are both about the same size. Falchion trades ~1 average damage per hit for one extra point of crit threat range. While crits won't double your +xd6 damage strikes, it'll pay off a lot when you PA with Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Strike or Strike of Perfect Clarity or a few others. PA damage multiplies pleasantly.

I'm pretty sure there's a section in the ToB that states any extra damage from maneuvers isn't multiplied on crits, not just damage dice. That means Strike of Perfect Clarity doesn't get +200 damage on a crit. Similarly the Nightmare strike series doesn't get any EXTRA benefit on a crit (basically just another weapon damage + mods added to the total).

Keld Denar
2011-02-02, 03:19 PM
Where? I just reread pages 37-46, AKA Chapter 3: Blade Magic, AKA the section on maneuvers. Nowhere in that section does it state ANY rules on crits or multipliers. Thus, you'd refer to the basic rules for crits and multipliers. Bonus dice (like Sneak Attack, or Mountain Hammer) never multiply, base damage and static bonuses always multiply. So, PA damage, the +IL damage from a White Raven charge manevuer, the +IL damage from Tactics of the Wolf stance for flanking, the stacking bonus damage from Blood in the Water stance, the +100 damage from Strike of Perfect Clarity, and the doubled weapon/strength/enhancement damage from Ruby Nightmare Blade would ALL multiply on a crit just fine, according to any and all applicable stacking multiplier rules.

Darrin
2011-02-02, 03:57 PM
Where? I just reread pages 37-46, AKA Chapter 3: Blade Magic, AKA the section on maneuvers. Nowhere in that section does it state ANY rules on crits or multipliers.

Top of page 43:

"You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

You'll note that these two sentences are somewhat contradictory, since you *do* multiply static bonuses (Craven, Power Attack, etc.) but not extra dice (Sneak Attack, Flaming enhancement, etc.).

I believe the intent of the first sentence was referring to strikes that add damage dice (Stone Mountain, for example), as opposed to Battle Leader's Charge (+10 damage, no extra dice). Almost all strikes add extra dice, while relatively few of them add a static bonus, so the designer probably forgot about things like Battle Leader's Charge. It may also refer to *just* the extra damage provided by the strike, while anything you'd normally multiply on top of that (Power Attack, Collision enhancement, Craven, etc.) are still applied as normal.

Note: Boosts and stances are not strikes, and thus by RAW the "do not multiply" doesn't directly apply. So things like Leading the Charge or Burning Blade (at least the +IL portion) can still be multiplied.

If the second sentence really and truly does mean, "treat it the same way as sneak attack", then the first sentence isn't really a new rule so much as a reminder that you don't multiply extra damage dice on a crit.

I'm not entirely sure what to do with Insightful Strike, though... it's not really a static bonus exactly, but while you roll 1d20 to determine your damage, it *replaces* your damage, rather than added as *extra* damage dice.

My gut says: The "do not multiply" sentence is a poorly-worded reminder, not a new rule. Multiply static bonuses and Insightful Strike as you normally would. Extra damage dice are not multiplied. If you've got a problem with that... *Suck it, Tier 1!* Sometimes melee *do* get nice things!

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 08:25 PM
I got caught by that page 43 thing too. It is very sneaky.

I want to think it was clarifying that extra damage dice are not multiplied just like SA. Since most strikes use damage dice it is easy to assume that they all do use extra damage dice. However I did concede that this officially by strict RAW makes it appear you do not get to multiply the damage from strike of perfect clarity:smallannoyed:.

Darrin
2011-02-02, 11:15 PM
I want to think it was clarifying that extra damage dice are not multiplied just like SA. Since most strikes use damage dice it is easy to assume that they all do use extra damage dice. However I did concede that this officially by strict RAW makes it appear you do not get to multiply the damage from strike of perfect clarity:smallannoyed:.

If the first sentence were entirely 100% true in all cases... then what is the purpose of the second sentence, about treating the extra damage as any other special ability? And if you treat the first sentence as 100% ironclad RAW, you violate the RAW of the second sentence, which *does* allow some special abilities to multiply on a crit.

Since these two sentences are in conflict, then you have to go back to the Core rules, which state: static bonuses are multiplied, extra dice are not.

MeeposFire
2011-02-02, 11:19 PM
I just attribute this to the nature of poor writing that comes with 3e books. It is easy to confuse rules and even the writers would write things that made little sense if looking at the entirety of the rules.

That said I agree with you that it should work and you can make a fair argument for it.

AnonymousD&Der
2011-02-03, 03:46 AM
The DM says I can use Iron Heart Surge as I wish, but may have it made in effective in certain situations depending on how we play or how abusive it is.... :biggrin:

I'll ask about the Crit thing... although when I saw +200 damage, I'm suddenly -incredibly- tempted to switch to the Falchion... roleplaying aside, PLUS TWO HUNDRED ****ING DAMAGE! HOLY ****ING ****! +200 DAMAGE! HOT DAMN!

Which other moves get their damage upgraded to Uber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgVPl5Eh-gU) Status (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaDNu38urC8&feature=related)?

Also, any way to some how get myself an Animal Companion without Multiclassing? I'm trying to decide when to take what feats for my moves, but I might consider sacrificing Magic Shattering for a freaking awesome Wolf/DireWolf/LegendaryWolf Companion....

And what ways can I upgrade my Concentration and Jump Checks, since I'll be using them quite a bit?

MeeposFire
2011-02-03, 03:54 AM
think that is bad? Try an unarmed character using a lot of size increases using diamond nightmare blade (the X4 one whatever it is). It is easy to get 4 size increases which with a monk unarmed progression (thanks to unarmed swordsage) gets me I think it was 16d6 damage which using that maneuver was 64d6+4(mods). That is an average of 224 damage before the X4 mods (which include str, enhancement, etc) or crits.

Darrin
2011-02-03, 07:04 AM
Also, any way to some how get myself an Animal Companion without Multiclassing? I'm trying to decide when to take what feats for my moves, but I might consider sacrificing Magic Shattering for a freaking awesome Wolf/DireWolf/LegendaryWolf Companion....


Leadership or Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat. Without a dip into Silverwood Outrider, though, your Handle Animal checks to direct it with a trick requires a move action.



And what ways can I upgrade my Concentration and Jump Checks, since I'll be using them quite a bit?

Shape Soulmeld: Vitality Belt (+4 on all Constitution-related checks, including Concentration). For Jump, Shape Soulmeld: Landshark Boots (+4 on Jump) or Pegasus Cloak (continuous feather fall and +2 on Jump).