Practical Mage Slaying

[Angry Bob]

Just as a thought experiment, I want to build a character that can reliably kill full casters. It doesn't even have to be good at anything else. I just want to see how well it can be done.

As a brainstorm, mainly, but hopefully eventually a guide to making any given archetype viable as something that can get up in a caster's business and mess him up.

Caster vulnerabilities:

Low health(until access to polymorph/shapechange/wtf ever)
Vulnerable to grappling if freedom of movement isn't already up(FoM has a somatic component, oddly enough.)
<Crickets>
...
There's really not a lot to capitalize on here, and even the ones I listed are sort of tenuous at best.

Stuff that's actually a good idea to bring to a mage fight:
A Mind Blank effect
A Nondetection effect, if Mind Blank isn't available. And this only works if you know you're going to be up against Batman.
Something that Dispels magic. Like Dispel Magic
...
So, basically, the answer to full casters is more full casters.

Is there anything that's not a spell that actually works?

Feats:
Pierce Magical Protection/Pierce Magical Concealment
Okay, that works, if you get get into melee range with them.

tl;dr: How do you build a character specifically to pwn casters? If anyone has done this before, what would you do differently if you built yours again? What feats, classes, etc are worth pointing out?

EDIT: When you post an idea, have an idea what it's qualified to take on. Almost nothing can match a fully theoretically-optimized wizard or archivist 20, but more "tame" builds are what I'd like to look at. I've never seen a wizard 20 or a character with wizard 20 casting in action, only seen the numbers, but give an idea of what your suggestion or combination of suggestions should be able to take on.

Additions:
UMD(for antimagic effects)
Don't let them know you're there.
Staggering Strike. Keep in mind this limits them to a standard action, which is still all they need to melt you.
Psionic Mind Blank, Personal
Scroll of metamagiked Enervation. Keep in mind protection from negative levels/negative energy is popular.
Win initiative, close quickly, try to one-shot them, use Mage Slayer and Thicket of Blades to lock them down if they live. Keep in mind they could have quickened escape spells ready.
Wall of Blades against touch attack spells.
Have lots of health to protect against power word spells.
High saves. Try to get as cost-effective as you can.
Moment of Perfect Mind and its relatives. Less useful if they spam the same spell at you until you fail a save.
Cha to saves(Find ways to stack a few different sources of this)

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

a well decked out UMD Rogue with proper preparation, can in theory defeat a caster with the element of surprise, and the happy use of sneak attack.

You just end up spending a lot of money on scrolls and wands, on top of the more usual equipment for such a character.

However, if you do not kill the caster in that first round, you are probably screwed, what with your roguishly low FORT and WILL saves. You can bet they wont throw a Fireball at you for sticking a sword of subtlety in their back.

[tyckspoon]

Well, you pretty much have to start by stating the level of optimization you're trying to beat. There is no practical way you'll take down an Astral Projection of the dude with Persistent Foresight, Celerity, and 20 carefully crafted Contingencies. But that doesn't represent all full casters, and it doesn't even represent all Wizards; it's quite possible to give a reaaallly bad day to any magic-user that gets next to you, where 'next to you' is 'anywhere in a 40 foot radius' via reach optimization.

[Xiander]

I build a fighter 8/monk 2, who could reliably take out any arcane caster the GM in question sigged at me. The clincher was that the gm was making generic npc mages and i had build a very specific anti mage fighter. The plot did not last long, but i would have loved to see him try his hand against actually optimised magi.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

pretty much the only way to beat casters (almost reliably and at ANY level) without being a true caster yourself is Use Magic Device.

I believe in one of the Fighter vs. Wizard challenge/experiments, all the fighters died horrible deaths... except the one who bought ranks in UMD (even though it was cross class)

It sucks, but its true. damage is nothing if you dont have a method to counter magic. thus, you must be a magic user, or be able to Use Magic Device with as little chance of failure as possible.

[JeminiZero]

Vulnerable to grappling if freedom of movement isn't already up(FoM has a somatic component, oddly enough.)

At low levels (5+), an optimized Caster would have Heart of Water active: 3rd level, trigger as a mental swift action to grant FoM for CL/round. At high levels, he could be wearing a ring. Plus if he's a Conjurer expect him to abrupt jaunt.

[Zaq]

Just about the only way to reliably kill a full caster is to get the drop on them, which you can only do if they're not turning the optimization up past a certain point (Contact Other Plane programs, chilling as a Dire Tortoise, anything with "Contingency" in the name, whatever). Get 'em flat-footed so they can't use immediate actions, hit 'em with both barrels, and pray. If the caster can actually take actions against you, there's a very good chance that you're simply boned, and the best that you can hope to do is distract them long enough for your friends to do something. (At least, this is the case if you're dealing with casters who are powerful enough to be worth specifically building against.)

One thing to keep in mind is that if you can actually land a solid physical blow on the mage, you've probably won. As such, things that do antimagey things on a hit tend to be not very useful. The example I always come back to is a Duskblade channeling Dispelling Touch: yes, if you hit, the mage might lose his or her buffs, but if the mage has the kinds of buffs up that would have protected them from dying anyway, you probably couldn't hit them in the first place.

At the lower levels of optimization, the mage might get a turn to go without either of you actually dying, so defenses and no-buttons become more important. Exactly what kind of defenses you need depends on the kind of mages you're up against, of course.

Overall, though, I would say that an overwhelming alpha strike is likely to be your best bet against the casters that you can actually kill.

[Acero]

For melee magekillers

My main idea is get in close. Short distance teleporting, fast movement, high jump, whatever works for you. Once you're in his/her/its face, be relentless.

With most casters, there is usually the same reason most have little hp
Low con.
Low con= Low Fort save- Abuse this (Stunning moves are nice)


Other non-spell ways:

Shoot/ cut off hands- no more somatic spells
Get someone to distract the while you advance (Posidon costume optional)
Grapple
Use a Tanglefoot Bag
Hit them with a big stick

[Zaq]

For melee magekillers

My main idea is get in close. Short distance teleporting, fast movement, high jump, whatever works for you. Once you're in his/her/its face, be relentless.

With most casters, there is usually the same reason most have little hp
Low con.
Low con= Low Fort save- Abuse this (Stunning moves are nice)


Other non-spell ways:

Shoot/ cut off hands- no more somatic spells
Get someone to distract the while you advance (Posidon costume optional)
Grapple
Use a Tanglefoot Bag
Hit them with a big stick

Casters will usually have as much CON as melee types do, often even more. Most casters only need one stat (some need two), and then they're free to max out CON. Why wouldn't they?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If you go the rogue route (which I enjoy) look at Staggering Strike feat... (complete scoundrel? maybe complete adventurer?) whenever a rogue hits with a melee sneak attack, the target makes a FORT saving throw against DAMAGE dealt. If the target fails the save, the target is staggered and can only make standard actions.

caster FORT saves generally suck.

[Angry Bob]

Staggering Strike sounds like an addition, with the caveat that a standard action is all a caster needs to melt you.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Very true, but better than the caster getting a full round on you. Its something, I guess.

and as I stated before, I favor UMD as a non-caster method of standing up to wizards and their ilk. I really do feel it is the best way.

[The Shadowmind]

I'd say a 4 person team of a Factotum 20, PsiWar 20, Beguiler 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Mystic Theurge 6, Spell-thief 20, has a decent chance of taking down a reasonably optimized Tier 1-2 level 20 Full caster.

Though you never mentioned which type of full caster. so being able to take down a Healer or a Warmage would meet the requirements of the the challenge and be quite easy.

[Angry Bob]

True. I'll add something to the first post about what any given countermeasure is qualified to take on.

[Essence_of_War]

It is very hard, and as other people mentioned depends largely on your optimization level.

The mage-slayer feat line isn't a bad starting point.

A couple of thingsto keep in mind:

1. Casters at high optimization like contingencies. At all optimizations they like all day buffs. Maximize spell/power or Sudden Maximize + dispel effect. This can level the playing field if you surprise them.

2. Casters (esp wizards) need to scry or CoP etc to prep adequately for threats. Someway to negate detection/scrying. The slayer's 9th level ability comes to mind. A mind blank spell/scroll/casting friend. I think psions/wilders get personal mind blank for 5th level powers.

3. Someway to one-hit kill so that they don't get actions to drop a twinned, maximized orb on you to end your sillyness. Failing that, someway to lock them out. A quickened sudden maximized dispel to eliminate contingencies followed by an uber-charge could work effectively. Tripping with a spiked chain with the knight's bulwark of defense class feature, and the mage-slayer line could work effectively.

All of this assumes that they aren't just an astral projection.

The problem, of course, is loading all of these into one character.

Alternatively, be a caster yourself :smallsmile:

[Angry Bob]

We've conceded that the best solution for one full caster is another full caster. The goal hear is to see what other archetypes can do against them, and see just how strong the caster can get before even any given character optimized to kill casters can't stop them.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

ooh, just remembered one of my favorite anti caster tricks... again, UMD. (im getting predictable, arent I?)

a Scroll of Maximized Enervation costs 1650+ whatever material components. they are no longer a level whatever caster, there is no saving throw, it is a ranged touch attack. There are now four levels lower than they were when you met them.

Throw Empowered on there for good measure. now they are effectively six levels lower.

[tyckspoon]

ooh, just remembered one of my favorite anti caster tricks... again, UMD. (im getting predictable, arent I?)

a Scroll of Maximized Enervation costs 1650+ whatever material components. they are no longer a level whatever caster, there is no saving throw, it is a ranged touch attack. There are now four levels lower than they were when you met them.

Throw Empowered on there for good measure. now they are effectively six levels lower.

On the other hand, negative energy and level drain protections are both pretty easy to get and very common to have, precisely because negative levels suck so hard.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

All you say is true. however, Ive noticed in "PvP" players tend to forget that bit, when they know they are going against a martial character... a martial character who shows up to the arena with a minimum of 7 wands, and god knows how many scrolls strapped to them.

Then they realize their mistake(s).

I do admit, the enervation trick is only good against lower level casters, very true, I cede that point, oh Spoon of Tyck.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Generally speaking, a significant advantage in optimization is both necessary and sufficient for a non-full-caster to defeat a full caster. This means that casters optimized near the limits of their power require game-breaking shenanigans (anyone with appropriate WBL can buy a Candle of Invocation) to defeat, but many of the tricks stated above will work on 'standard' casters, and simply picking up a big stick and winning initiative will work against horribly unoptimized casters.

This thread also reminds me why every Incantatrix I'll ever play will persist Ray Deflection, even if I don't use Metamagic Effect on any other spell.

[Ranger Mattos]

With most casters, there is usually the same reason most have little hp
Low con.


1. Be a 17th level martial initiator.
2. Take Mountain Tombstone Strike.
3. Hit the caster. Repeatedly.
4. ???
5. Profit!

[The Shadowmind]

The 4 person team of Factotum 20, PsiWar 20, Beguiler 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Mystic Theurge 6(using early entry trick), Spell-thief 20, which will hence fourth be known as the Shade 4.

The PsiWar, will get a custom Weapon of Legacy, to gain up to 6 first level Maneuvers(Least abilities), for 1 of the Lesser abilities for the Cunning abilities to make sure he is never flat-footed. This will ensure that the PsiWar can take immediate actions almost always. The other lesser abilities could be the +5 initiative, making the Weapon of Legacy Intelligent, and/or getting a few 3rd level maneuvers. Also use Marital Study/Stance to get White Raven tactics for the PsiWar.

With proper warning and setup the Noctumancer can make himself temporarily immune to the specific spells the Caster might try. Along with immediate action counter-spelling.

The Spell-thief can use the steal SLA ability grab SLA's from the Factotum to cast, and can has a good chance to "Return to Sender" any targeted spells that target him.

The Factotum once he gets to go, after the PsiWar uses the psionic tricks to go first, then white raven tactics to make the it the Factotum's turn, can use the whichever abilities from Cunning Brilliance(Pick from a few Contact Other Plane questionsings), and then Cunning Surge to use inspiration points from Font of Inspirations to have several standard actions. The Factotum should have enough skill points to UMD anything scroll/staff/item that he needs to just in case.

And all four can pick several spells as contingencies from bought from someone with Craft Contingency spell.

[faceroll]

At low levels (5+), an optimized Caster would have Heart of Water active: 3rd level, trigger as a mental swift action to grant FoM for CL/round. At high levels, he could be wearing a ring. Plus if he's a Conjurer expect him to abrupt jaunt.

Do you really want to be devoting a 3rd level slot to that? Aren't there better options? Benign transposition or something with only a verbal component to get you out? Mirror image to keep from being touched in the first place?

[tyckspoon]

Do you really want to be devoting a 3rd level slot to that? Aren't there better options? Benign transposition or something with only a verbal component to get you out? Mirror image to keep from being touched in the first place?

The Heart of (Element) spells last an hour/level, grant a modest benefit while on, can be discharged for a more potent defense, and give you crit/sneak attack fortification if you have all of them running. So.. no, there's really not a significantly better defensive spell- all the more potent ones are short enough duration that you have to cast them during the fight, which means you are using your actions to establish defense instead of taking control of the fight.

[BayardSPSR]

Doesn't the Giant have a post somewhere on how Miko managed to take out a full party (including V)? I don't know whether V's optimized or not, but maybe similar tactics could work.


Maybe.

[RndmNumGen]

V is very unoptimized.

One thing that occurred to me though, is while most casters might have a decent Con score, they probably have a low Str(Unless they're a Cleric). If you can reliably get off several attacks, something like Dragon Bile could reduce their Str to 0, rendering them helpless. Hmm... that doesn't stop them from using verbal spells though. Maybe a Cha, Wis or Int equivalent, using whichever one seems least likely for that caster to have a high score in?

[sonofzeal]

V is very unoptimized.

One thing that occurred to me though, is while most casters might have a decent Con score, they probably have a low Str(Unless they're a Cleric). If you can reliably get off several attacks, something like Dragon Bile could reduce their Str to 0, rendering them helpless. Hmm... that doesn't stop them from using verbal spells though. Maybe a Cha, Wis or Int equivalent, using whichever one seems least likely for that caster to have a high score in?
If you can get off several hits, there's better things you can do. Like, kill them outright via damage.

[faceroll]

The Heart of (Element) spells last an hour/level, grant a modest benefit while on, can be discharged for a more potent defense, and give you crit/sneak attack fortification if you have all of them running. So.. no, there's really not a significantly better defensive spell- all the more potent ones are short enough duration that you have to cast them during the fight, which means you are using your actions to establish defense instead of taking control of the fight.

A 5th level wizard doesn't have that many 3rd level spell slots. A generalist has 2 3rd level spells (3 if you get domain wizard), specialist/elf generalist has 3 3rd level spells, and focused specialist has 4 3rd level spells. A 6th level sorcerer has 1 3rd level spell known. I can see a specialist or focused specialist preparing it as soon as he gets access to 3rd level spells. For a generalist, probably not until level 6 or 7 would I regularly prepare it.

Do you go offense or defense? Personally, I like filling my top spells with offense before I pick up defense, and use war wizard (swap scribe scroll for improved initiative) and nerveskitter to get +10 or so to initiative. Then I try and end combat with my big guns, or run away.

[Cerlis]

seems to me all this is considering that the non caster will auto fail his save and die.

A caster kills you with saves effects and touch attacks. So the simple solution is to find away to not make this a problem.

I'm sure with some meddling a Rogue/hexblade fighter with mageslayer feats a Ring of Spell turning (or whatever its called) a scarab of death, throat punch, and various libraries of other magic items that can help.

Spells are great, but if we are talking about low level magic then a low level melee character can figure out plenty of ways to deal with it, and if we are talking high level game breaking magic then thats enough money, magic items and a good 10 levels in main class and 5 levels in two other classes to pick up supernatural and extrodinary abilities to help you do this.

Surely there should be something.

-------
also i'd be wary, whenever someone suggests one thing someone says "there's a spell for that" . But even if you have alot of game breaking spells that no single caster has all spells availible to them all the time.

All we need is a way to keep from failing saves on the most potential spells, reduce damage on the middle tier spells and catch up or prevent escape.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

You are right, no caster has all spells available to them at all times... unless they arent a caster, and Use Magic Device to imitate any caster they want, whenever they want, for the mere price of entirely replaceable gold pieces.

[Cerlis]

You are right, no caster has all spells available to them at all times... unless they arent a caster, and Use Magic Device to imitate any caster they want, whenever they want, for the mere price of entirely replaceable gold pieces.

and cant you just buy a magic item that will reflect like...most of those..?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

so... you can reflect almost any spell? with an item? tell me this item so I can use it, and never worry about spellcasters again.

[Claudius Maximus]

I've seen a lot of high-op caster battles and I'll say that the truly prudent casters optimize defense first, then offense. Can't kill people if you're dead after all.

The bigger problem is that it's quite possible to have a ridiculous level of both, even while remaining in PO. You can get by with only 3 or 4 offensive spells, since you obviously want only one battle (and as a caster, you have the resources to ensure you only get one in a day).

[SiuiS]

Are there any ways to get antimagic field as a persistent emanations without bein either a high-end caster or going though the caverns of Gouda on a Monterey jack canoe?

3rd party spell, dancing with demons, let's you get a feat, ANY feat, and sub the prereqs with shadowlands taint and d12 fire damage. Not hard to circumvent, if you can use L5R products. Get a permanent, widened and shaped/whatever antimagic field. Make sure to leave a hole in it in your square so you can benefit from magic items. Use an enigma helm, fellmist robe, and essential shenanigans to get a bonus to will saves, nondetection, 50% concealment from further than 5 feet away. Add impulse boots and more feat shenanigans for uncanny dodge and evasion.

Get access to Iron Heart Surge, through classes or feats (I suggest class) and you have protection from everything a wizard has, except patience. Add a high SR and a githyanki silver sword and you've turned any encounter with a caster into "let's see who runs fastest and swings hardest", which is like forcing the uncoordinated kid to play patty-cake with you.

Trouble is, I can't think of a legitimate way of getting all that stuff without either cheating, or being high enough level it doesn't matter anymore.

[Cerlis]

so... you can reflect almost any spell? with an item? tell me this item so I can use it, and never worry about spellcasters again.

No, but most magic items are made at minimum caster level. So a great many wands and scepters cast mostly spells that have either a low caster level (which a Ring of spell resistance could stop) or a low level spell (which a Ring of Spell absobtion/reflection) could deal with. If you used a higher level, maxed out item, that would be more costly, and the cost wouldnt be so easily ignored as you say i think. Further without magic, a spell caster has many many spells but, still only has 3-5 offensive 9th level spells at most. And most of those are either "Create universe" or "Save or die" or "I deal alot of damage but am effected by spell resistance"

My question wasnt sarcastic, it was a slightly informed honest question. There are books and books of enchantments and wonderous items out there. It just seems to me that somewhere in there, there should be some magic items that can give the melee character those few turns he needs to turn the tide.

Just seemed like everyone is acting like if you have full casting , battles are like

"I cast a spell. You lose"
"No i dont!"
"Yes you do!"
"nuh-uh!"
"Yah-huh. Cus i said so"

Battle with high magic CAN end like that, and i'm sure it happens alot, but i doupt it happens all the time.

So thats what i'm asking. If a highly optimized caster has all these spells perfectly perpared and all these magic items to hasten him and boost his DC and give him extra spells. Then we should be not talking about a Melee character who wants to kill a mage, but a highly optimized one whos magic items and abilities are directly tailored to that goal.

[faceroll]

I've seen a lot of high-op caster battles and I'll say that the truly prudent casters optimize defense first, then offense. Can't kill people if you're dead after all.

The bigger problem is that it's quite possible to have a ridiculous level of both, even while remaining in PO. You can get by with only 3 or 4 offensive spells, since you obviously want only one battle (and as a caster, you have the resources to ensure you only get one in a day).

Yeah, for an arena match. Imagine you are an adventurer, grinding loot on wild boars, when someone shows up, who has been hunting you for 6 months, knows everything about you, and all you know is you've got a serious case of steel in kidneys?

[Essence_of_War]

Briefly, most casters get a ring of FoM, they don't rely on the spell for exactly the reason of that pesky somatic component.


Are there any ways to get antimagic field as a persistent emanations without bein either a high-end caster or going though the caverns of Gouda on a Monterey jack canoe?

3rd party spell, dancing with demons, let's you get a feat, ANY feat, and sub the prereqs with shadowlands taint and d12 fire damage. Not hard to circumvent, if you can use L5R products. Get a permanent, widened and shaped/whatever antimagic field. Make sure to leave a hole in it in your square so you can benefit from magic items. Use an enigma helm, fellmist robe, and essential shenanigans to get a bonus to will saves, nondetection, 50% concealment from further than 5 feet away. Add impulse boots and more feat shenanigans for uncanny dodge and evasion.

Get access to Iron Heart Surge, through classes or feats (I suggest class) and you have protection from everything a wizard has, except patience. Add a high SR and a githyanki silver sword and you've turned any encounter with a caster into "let's see who runs fastest and swings hardest", which is like forcing the uncoordinated kid to play patty-cake with you.

Trouble is, I can't think of a legitimate way of getting all that stuff without either cheating, or being high enough level it doesn't matter anymore.

I like your thinking, but I don't think that this will protect you from the caster's Orb spells. Orbs work by RAW inside the AMF. All it takes is 1 or 2 sufficiently meta'd orbs to kill someone if you don't close the deal fast.

If the goal is to not be a full caster, I might try something like this:

Psywar 20 (I need the bonus feats and the ML) I need 1 flaw to get 17 feats. Murky-eyed is probably fine, if they still have concealment up when we close with them, we're boned anyway.

With a few caveats. I don't want an arena fight. Someone built like this could think of nothing less interesting than squaring off toe-to-toe with everyone prepared. As the OP said, he wanted to be able to kill a mid-rangey wizard, not a high OP one or one that was prepping for an arena duel.

The psy war will need to have buffed with, at the very least, a personal mind blank at the beginning of the day. The slayer can rely on his class features. They both need touchsight (spend a feat, expanded knowledge) on to defeat a mirror image.

1 - Expanded Knowledge (toughsight)
2 - Expanded Knowledge (dispel psionics)

We want to hit them with a buffed dispel so we need:
3 - quicken power
4 - maximize power
5 - psicrystal affinity
6 - psicrystal containment
This is enough to drop a targeted dispel for 40 on them as a free action. If they have mirror image up, we're screwed. However, unless they're willing to burn an 8th level spell slot on a persisted mirror image every day, it is unlikely that they'll have this up, unless of course the mage expects this trick.

We need to close quickly and kill him:
7 - Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain
8 - Power Attack
9 - Leap Attack
10 - Shock Trooper
plus a manifested psionic lion's charge can get us our iteratives on the charge. We'll be using a spiked chain, and have manifested expansion before we made this foolhardy frontal assault. If we can't make a one-hit kill we have other options. If we burn feats on:
11 - martial study - crusader's strike
12 - martial stance - thicket of blades
13 - combat expertise
14 - improved trip
15 - knockdown
We can lock the caster down if we can get within melee distance. With expansion plus the spiked chain, we melee distance is flexible as an absolute measurement. If the caster is indoors, to move about efficiently we probably can't be bigger than large sized. With expansion, this increases our natural reach to 10ft, and with a spiked chain, it doubles to 20ft.

We still have two feats left, and the only situation I can cover with them is defensive casting.
16 - Mage-slayer
17 - practiced manifester
I feel really dirty picking that pair of feats, but I don't see an obvious way around stopping their defensive casting.

Summary (because I basically oral diarrhea'd the rest of this):
Human psywar 20 - gives a total of 17 feats + ML 20
Needs to have the following powers known:
Expansion, dispel psionics, psionic lion's charge, personal mind blank, dispel (expanded knowledge), touchsight (expanded knowledge), dimension door.

Stats: wis needs a 16 to manifest mind blank. Int 13 to get combat exp. Str at least 13 to get power attack but as high as you can get it.

Feats in no particular order:
1 - Expanded Knowledge (toughsight)
2 - Expanded Knowledge (dispel psionics)
3 - quicken power
4 - maximize power
5 - psicrystal affinity
6 - psicrystal containment
7 - Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain
8 - Power Attack
9 - Leap Attack
10 - Shock Trooper
11 - martial study - crusader's strike
12 - martial stance - thicket of blades
13 - combat expertise
14 - improved trip
15 - knockdown
16 - Mage-slayer
17 - practiced manifester

Skills:
concentration, jump maxed out.

Plan of attack:
Necessary Buffs - expansion (to biggest size that can fit in the area you're trying to kill wizard comfortably), touchsight, personal mind blank
optional - dispelling buffer, greater concealing amorpha (maybe you'll get a 2nd round if something goes wrong!)

You need to have a pretty good idea of where the caster is relative to your present location. I'm drawing a blank on a good way to do this without a scry. He'll have a mindblank up anyway so that won't work. You warp in with an augmented dimension door, or with a helm of teleportation.

Be focused and have a focus stored in your crystal. Drop a quickened, maximized, fully augmented dispel psionics on his. This will cost 20 pp and blow both your own and your psicrystal's focus but will give you a 40 on your dispel check to lower buffs and eat his contingencies.

If the caster was unaware of you warping in, you should now get a surprise round before initiative. If they are within range for a partial charge, go for the fences with leaping, power attacking, shock trooper charge. If this doesn't one-shot them, they are now within your thicket of blades and unable to cast defensively because of the mage-slayer. If your dispel caught all of their contingencies, I think they're boned. If they try to run, you get AoO from thicket of blades to knockdown. If they try to cast you have mage-slayer.

Problems:
Most obviously, quickened spells. The feat says that these don't provoke AoO. A quickened dimension door or teleport seems pretty bad. I know if I were a wizard or psion I'd have at least one of those prep'd. Somone who can buff the heck out of their caster level is scary also. Other problems include a wizard who is the least bit optimized. One who can buff his caster level above 40. Maximize power might not work the way I think it does. Someone on the Simple Q&A by RAW seemed to think it does, but I haven't been able to track down a ruling that verified that a dispel check was a "variable numeric effect". If that is the case, this build might be helpful:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...
If the maximize doesn't work the way I think it does, I think you'd get more benefit from taking the rest of the mage-slayer feat line as a fighter/crusader than from playing a psychic warrior.

Thoughts:
I thought about this like a hunter/assassin, but it doesn't generally need to be like that. You could play something like this as part of a party. It may be non-obvious to spell casters how scary you are until it's too late. This might be fun, but against an optimized wizard it will not work at all. I'd try to track down or get the attention of some people from the Test of Spite. They have crazy practice in optimization for duels.

Edit: I posted this and just realized that shock trooper requires improved bull rush also. Gaaaaahhh. That means you probably need another flaw. The "bad at ranged attacks" one is probably fine.
18 - Improved Bull Rush

[vikingofdoom]

Maximize power doesn't help with opposed checks like in dispel magic, so any build focusing on those needs to be able to reliably beat the caster.

[Essence_of_War]

Yeah, like I said, I asked the "Simple Q&A" folks and they said that it is basically a DM call.



A 613 Ask your DM.

:
Originally Posted by Maximize Spell
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized.
:
Originally Posted by Dispel Magic
You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.
Dispel Magic's end result is a Boolean (true/false) value for each spell, and many people would not consider that a "variable, numeric effect". However, an equivalent view is that the level of spells dispelled is the variable, numeric effect of Dispel Magic.

This is a DM's call because the term "effect" is used with multiple meanings in D&D without an in-game definition. (FWIW, the FAQ author is of the former persuasion.)

[vikingofdoom]

Yeah, like I said, I asked the "Simple Q&A" folks and they said that it is basically a DM call.

Except that in the PHB,maximize spell has the line:
Opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected and XPH Maximize power has a similar line about what can and can't be maximized. Evidentially, whoever answered that question was incorrect.

[Pechvarry]

I think this will get lost in Yet Another "Melee cannot be anti-mages" thread, but I think it's important to note that PC melee can be mage slayers. Why? Because most DMs don't use every friggin' caster trick for every caster they have. Saying "most wizards will have X spell running, Y contingencies, and Z magic items" is patently untrue. Any DM who does run all their casters that smartly is actually demanding all their players to be Tier 1.

Assuming your DM isn't like that, I really like Ranger (CM ACF to get arcane casters as your favored enemy) + Nemesis (BoED) to pinpoint them + mage-slayer line of feats.

[Devmaar]

Shadow Blink manoeuvre + Shadow Pounce + as much sneak attack or sudden strike as you can get + optimised hide check = the caster's dead in the surprise round.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think this will get lost in Yet Another "Melee cannot be anti-mages" thread, but I think it's important to note that PC melee can be mage slayers. Why? Because most DMs don't use every friggin' caster trick for every caster they have. Saying "most wizards will have X spell running, Y contingencies, and Z magic items" is patently untrue. Any DM who does run all their casters that smartly is actually demanding all their players to be Tier 1.

Assuming your DM isn't like that, I really like Ranger (CM ACF to get arcane casters as your favored enemy) + Nemesis (BoED) to pinpoint them + mage-slayer line of feats.The issue isn't that every wizard is teetering on TO territory. It's that, in order for a mage slayer to be effective, the wizard has to be less optimized than the melee character. I've seen many DMs calibrate their optimization levels to the level of the party, which would pose a problem.


Shadow Blink manoeuvre + Shadow Pounce + as much sneak attack or sudden strike as you can get + optimised hide check = the caster's dead in the surprise round.Heart of Air + Heart of Water + Heart of Earth + Heart of Fire. Or Elemental Body. Or Telepathy + Mindsight + Glitterdust. Or any way of getting an all-day miss chance.

But suppose the caster has none of these things. I'd *still* want to see a build that could reliably kill a caster of equal level (and don't skimp on the Con) in the surprise round.

[Waker]

A quick addition you can make to this anti-mage foe would be taking five levels of Justicar and arming him with anti-magic manacles. At 5th level a Justicar can make a grapple check to hog-tie an opponent. Meaning that if you can grab an pin a caster on the first round and then snap the cuffs on them.

Certainly not an easy task, but if you have some means to stun them or delay casting for even one round it might be possible.

Without putting much thought into it, I would try a Warforged Rogue/Artificer/Justicar/Occult Slayer. But I highly doubt that's the ideal route.

[Essence_of_War]

Except that in the PHB,maximize spell has the line:
Opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected and XPH Maximize power has a similar line about what can and can't be maximized. Evidentially, whoever answered that question was incorrect.

I'm sort of inclined to agree with you, and I think this was probably the desigmer's intent, but I think there is still room for ambiguity due to the fact that the dispel check is not opposed. It is against a static DC.

[Dvandemon]

A Rogue/Psion might seem like an optimal combo to get around mage tricks. The only things I can think of are a double team to get the best results. I remember two homebrews that dealt with this. The Spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spell_Breaker_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)) Breaker (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spell_Breaker_(3.5e_Class))

[SurlySeraph]

A quick addition you can make to this anti-mage foe would be taking five levels of Justicar and arming him with anti-magic manacles. At 5th level a Justicar can make a grapple check to hog-tie an opponent. Meaning that if you can grab an pin a caster on the first round and then snap the cuffs on them.

Good if he doesn't yet have FoM up, not if otherwise.

Pechvarry's Arcane Hunter + Nemesis suggestion is the best way I know of for a non-ToB melee mage slayer to work. The Eldeen Ranger (Ashbound) PrC from Eberron is a great addition, giving +2 on saves, another Favored Enemy, and decent SR (well, decent for 10th level).
Occult Slayer isn't great, but if you don't want to use UMD it's useful.
I like Cavestalker for the free EWP: Spiked Chain and spiked chain dual-wielding, since it prevents wasted feats and goes nicely with Double Hit in an AoO build. The Tremorsense and ability to mislead blindsense, blindsight, and tremorsense are nice but probably not worth the level investment.

As many immunities, ways to fly, teleport, etc. as you can, and at least one Belt of Battle, Boots of Temporal Acceleration, or other extra-action item are very helpful. Pierce Magical Protection can be worthwhile if you get extra actions; use it to lower the mage's AC to hittable levels, then use a Belt of Battle or other method to make a full attack or a high-level strike.

A ToB-based mage slayer basically wants IHS, Island of Blades, Mage Slayer + PMC, and lots of reach. Standard action for strikes, AoOs to hit the wizard, and try not to get killed.

[Togo]

The main point about mages is to make sure they're running generic tactics, rather than anything specifically designed to counter your particular build.

My usual anti-mage build is a Master of Many Forms. He replicates some of the flexibility of the caster while still being induitably a melee build. As one of the toughest classes in the game, your aim is to run the mage out of offensive magics, while wearing down the contingencies and defensive magics. Mages don't have that many spells, particularly when they're running a vast array of defensive magics, and once they're down to lower level magics and items, they no longer have a signficant advantage.

The prime disadvantage of this is that he might get you in a save-or die effect that you aren't immune to, and fluff your save. And at the highest level, it's worth making sure you can bring down his shapechange spell or else he'll start copying what you do.

At lower level I've seen good use of a simple ranger build. A decent bow, some seeking enchantments, and good use of wands will give a fair chance at plugging a lower level wizard. There are some standard counters to an archer, and you need to be ready for them.

Another possibility that's been suggested to me is combining spellthief with a ranged attack build. I'm not convinced that you have the durability there, but it's a possible way to go.

The monk is a sadly underused tactic, particularly at mid and high levels. Try getting a belt of battle, improved disarm, and with flurry of blows you may be able to strip him of most of his critical magic items in a single round.

My personal favorite is probably the 'cracker'. Most often a spymaster or exemplar, he combines a high knowledge planes, a high gather information, and some method of destroying demi-planes. Rather than take on the mage at all, he simply assumes he's lurking on a demi plane and using project image all the time, investigates around the wizard, locates the demi-plane where he dwells, and vents it out of the known universe (there are several ways of achieving this, depending on your game world). The mage may or may not die, but he won't be back without DM fiat.

[Lateral]

I'm thinking we get crystal golems in here somewhere. Psionics-magic transparency is the standard rule, and the things are pretty much made to screw over psionic classes (and so, by extension, magic users). There's gotta be a way to use one of them.

[The Glyphstone]

My personal favorite is probably the 'cracker'. Most often a spymaster or exemplar, he combines a high knowledge planes, a high gather information, and some method of destroying demi-planes. Rather than take on the mage at all, he simply assumes he's lurking on a demi plane and using project image all the time, investigates around the wizard, locates the demi-plane where he dwells, and vents it out of the known universe (there are several ways of achieving this, depending on your game world). The mage may or may not die, but he won't be back without DM fiat.

Do tell...what non-epic methods of destroying demi-planes exist in 3.5 material? :smallconfused:

[Essence_of_War]

I'm thinking we get crystal golems in here somewhere. Psionics-magic transparency is the standard rule, and the things are pretty much made to screw over psionic classes (and so, by extension, magic users). There's gotta be a way to use one of them.

Sadly, they are pretty easy to deal with. Infinite SR doesn't help against a couple of metamagic'd orbs. They are also ponderously slow, have no reach, and have no way of forcing the mage to stick around to deal with them.

If however, you were able to trap the the mage in a dimension-locked area with no mundane escapes, say a dungeon of sorts, after exhausting some of their offensive resources, it might be a decent quick finisher.

[Coidzor]

Do tell...what non-epic methods of destroying demi-planes exist in 3.5 material? :smallconfused:

What are the epic methods of destroying demi-planes? Custom spell for the job?

[The Glyphstone]

What are the epic methods of destroying demi-planes? Custom spell for the job?

Probably DC0 involving solar ritual circles or something, I dunno.

[Lateral]

Sadly, they are pretty easy to deal with. Infinite SR doesn't help against a couple of metamagic'd orbs. They are also ponderously slow, have no reach, and have no way of forcing the mage to stick around to deal with them.

If however, you were able to trap the the mage in a dimension-locked area with no mundane escapes, say a dungeon of sorts, after exhausting some of their offensive resources, it might be a decent quick finisher.
I was actually kind of thinking of having it grapple the wizard after dispelling or suppressing their freedom of movement, then killing them. Maybe with a PC to apply Dimensional Shackles, too.

...Could there be a way to force a Robe of Powerlessness on a Wizard? It'd only work on INT-based casters, but it'd work if you could force it on them- they're going to be unable to cast the spells necessary to cure themselves.

[Togo]

Probably DC0 involving solar ritual circles or something, I dunno.

Hmm.. I could have sworn there were some. You may be right. Let me research and get back to you.

[AimlessSage]

Anything with anti-magic field.
Best way imho;

Sword that cast antimagic

11th level caster * 6th level spell *2000 *1.5 (10min/level) / 2.5(twice per day):

79,200 gold

+3000 adamantine.

+50 greatsword.

congrats for
82,250 you can shut down spell-casters 2x per day. Adamantine so its hard to break, great sword cuz its the highest base dmg of any weapon (8.4 avg w/ crits)

[Akal Saris]

I'd say my preferred tactic would be a mundane stealthy type of character, probably optimizing poisons, sneak attack and iajutsu focus.

[Lateral]

Anything with anti-magic field.
Best way imho;

Sword that cast antimagic

11th level caster * 6th level spell *2000 *1.5 (10min/level) / 2.5(twice per day):

79,200 gold

+3000 adamantine.

+50 greatsword.

congrats for
82,250 you can shut down spell-casters 2x per day. Adamantine so its hard to break, great sword cuz its the highest base dmg of any weapon (8.4 avg w/ crits)
:smallsigh:
Using custom items as an argument in a theoretical D&D conversation is like using real-life physics in a conversation about a fantasy setting. Please, think of the catgirls.

Of course it's possible to do that with custom items. Theoretically, you could get a ring of Grip of Iron for a +4 to grapple checks forever and a ring of Chameleon for a +10 to Hide checks forever for 2,000 gp each.

[Psyren]

Yeah, for an arena match. Imagine you are an adventurer, grinding loot on wild boars, when someone shows up, who has been hunting you for 6 months, knows everything about you, and all you know is you've got a serious case of steel in kidneys?

It's rather hard for that guy to get the drop on you when the solar you phoned that morning warned you he was coming.

For him to get around this precaution would require magic of his own, and you then run into a spy vs. spy caster vs. caster situation again.

[Togo]

:smallsigh:
Using custom items as an argument in a theoretical D&D conversation is like using real-life physics in a conversation about a fantasy setting. Please, think of the catgirls.

Of course it's possible to do that with custom items. Theoretically, you could get a ring of Grip of Iron for a +4 to grapple checks forever and a ring of Chameleon for a +10 to Hide checks forever for 2,000 gp each.

A weapon of legacy can do the same thing, albiet at higher cost.

[Lateral]

At a much higher cost, which was my point. The guidelines for creating custom magic items are up to DMs and therefore shouldn't be brought into discussion unless we're actually putting this into action with a real DM and (s)he says yes.

[Darwin]

Take some combination of Rogue/Hexblade/Blackguard for Mettle, Evasion and 2x Cha to saves vs. spells.

Add a touch of Warblade to pick up Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge.

Now, the way I read it, recovering maneuvers as a Warblade means you have to take a swift action followed by a melee attack or a standard action to do nothing. Nowhere in the entry does it say that the maneuvers are only available from the beginning of the next round. So practically speaking, shouldn't it be able to keep Wall of Blades up each and every round as long as you stick to swinging your sword during your own round? Now you've got an obscene AC against those pesky Orb spells that seem to make their way past your stupidly high saving throw.

Assuming he doesn't break the action economy. How's Batman gonna hurt you now? He may hinder you with Fog spells etc. But the spell has a duration, and when that's over you're going to be standing there, ready to plant you boot in his sorry butt.

This probaly isn't bulletproof, as I'm not familiar with tactical wizard play at high level (I've never made it past level 13 myself, and that wasn't as a Batman Wizard). But it stops a whole lot of his arsenal, with minimum investment from your side (no magic items or feats required).

[SurlySeraph]

Take some combination of Rogue/Hexblade/Blackguard for Mettle, Evasion and 2x Cha to saves vs. spells.

You could add 3 levels in Eldeen Ranger (Greensingers) for Cha to saves again. Yes, it stacks.


Now, the way I read it, recovering maneuvers as a Warblade means you have to take a swift action followed by a melee attack or a standard action to do nothing. Nowhere in the entry does it say that the maneuvers are only available from the beginning of the next round. So practically speaking, shouldn't it be able to keep Wall of Blades up each and every round as long as you stick to swinging your sword during your own round?

Nope. Recovering takes a swift action. Using a counter is an immediate action, which uses up your swift action.


Assuming he doesn't break the action economy. How's Batman gonna hurt you now?

Probably with no-save spells like Enervation, lots of area-of-effect spells, and Power Word: Whatever.

[Darwin]

You could add 3 levels in Eldeen Ranger (Greensingers) for Cha to saves again. Yes, it stacks.

Be a Dwarf, another +2 to saves vs. spells :smallbiggrin:


Nope. Recovering takes a swift action. Using a counter is an immediate action, which uses up your swift action.

Curses, I didn't know Immediate Actions and Swift actions doesn't overlap. :smallannoyed:


Probably with no-save spells like Enervation, lots of area-of-effect spells, and Power Word: Whatever.

Enervation is ranged touch. Wall of Blades would've taken care of that (though moot now because of what's above). Power Words only work against creatures with a certain amount of HP. An amount you can easily aquire with high HD and a solid Con mod. Area of Effect spells provide saves, most often reflex, which will be resisted by his supercharged saves.

So Ranged Touch no SR no save spells can kill us now, that sucks.

A very basic assumption for the wizzies attack mod would be 20 Dex for +5, +10 BAB, and +20 from a quickened True Strike, that's an attack mod of 35 vs. Touch. So how do we boost our Touch AC to a level that will prevent the Wizard from throwing a metamagic powered Orb/Enervation spell right in your face and blow you to smithereens? :smallfrown:

[faceroll]

It's rather hard for that guy to get the drop on you when the solar you phoned that morning warned you he was coming.

For him to get around this precaution would require magic of his own, and you then run into a spy vs. spy caster vs. caster situation again.

Go with Vecna-Blooded- erase knowledge of yourself from existence.

[Waker]

Actually I had an amusing enough idea for a counter-mage while going about my day.
I mentioned before about Justicar using AM-shackles, but I decided I wanted to go with a completely different approach than that. Slap whatever skills and items you want on this guy.

Monk 2/Rogue 4/Fortune's Friend 5/Gatecrasher 4/Occult Slayer 5

Class variants would be Spell Reflection and Spell Sense (CM) to counter any ray spells used by the mage. The character would try to crank their touch AC as high as possible with Dex/Wis but if the mage still managed to hit them with their maximized orb spell, use Advantageous Avoidance to force the reroll. Dampening Field from Gatecrasher prevents reinforcements from being called in. For the Occult Slayer's signature weapon, I choose a dagger. Toss Force and Returning on it for fun. Find an item or potion with See Invisibility on it, so even if they jump ethereal you can still hit them.

I just like the idea of starting combat with a mage who decides to waste me with a maximized ray spell only to have it rebound on him.

[Claudius Maximus]

Be a Dwarf, another +2 to saves vs. spells

You'd be losing out though if you get Cha x3 to saves.

You have some pretty legit non-spell defenses listed, but I'd still put my money on the caster. The difference in power and diversity in tactics is just so huge.

If this ends in another one of those challenges that never proves anything I guess I'll volunteer to run it.

[Psyren]

Go with Vecna-Blooded- erase knowledge of yourself from existence.

Having a lich-deity's bloodline is mundane now? :smallconfused:

[Merk]

I think a changeling rogue 12 / marshal 1 / spymaster 7 has a decent shot. Gather Information to find out the whereabouts of the mage and how to get on its good side, Diplomacy to earn trust and Bluff to sell lies. Once the mage sleeps, you have it. All that's left to do is find a way to disable the contingencies.

[Darwin]

You'd be losing out though if you get Cha x3 to saves.

Gold Dwarf gets +2 Con, -2 Dex (DMG 171) :smallbiggrin:


You have some pretty legit non-spell defenses listed, but I'd still put my money on the caster. The difference in power and diversity in tactics is just so huge.

Yeah, the caster is still going to win by means of some game-breaking tactic. But it's a step in the right direction. I'd still put my money on the caster as well though.


If this ends in another one of those challenges that never proves anything I guess I'll volunteer to run it.

The Wizard is always going to win unless we start wailing on him with the banhammer. Contingencies, Planeshift, Genesis, Astral Projection... We're never going to beat those with a straight up melee build. :smallfrown:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"The Wizard is always going to win unless we start wailing on him with the banhammer. Contingencies, Planeshift, Genesis, Astral Projection... We're never going to beat those with a straight up melee build. :smallfrown:"

This, probably +1

EDIT: wouldn't quote correctly for me. hmm...

[faceroll]

Having a lich-deity's bloodline is mundane now? :smallconfused:

If you want mundane, go human commoner 1 with 3 gold worth of equipment and the non-elite array.

Then take chicken-infested and spontaneously generate enough chickens to create a black hole. Actually, that doesn't sound mundane. Maybe take feeble, instead, so you can pick up skill focus: dirt farmer.

Come on, it's D&D. Anything past level 5 is pretty outrageous. Page through the Book of Nine Swords sometime. Teleporting as a swift action is considered "mundane". Or something. I don't even know what mundane means in relation to D&D.

Do you mean Extraordinary abilities? Because most of those are anything but mundane.

[Yukitsu]

If you want mundane, go human commoner 1 with 3 gold worth of equipment and the non-elite array.

Then take chicken-infested and spontaneously generate enough chickens to create a black hole. Actually, that doesn't sound mundane. Maybe take feeble, instead, so you can pick up skill focus: dirt farmer.

The carpal tunnel syndrome would kill you well before the wizard looked at all the chickens running around, shrugged his shoulders and calmly died of old age.

[Lateral]

Ooh! Ooh! I know!

Level 1 Human Commoner with Skill Focus and full ranks in Craft: Basket Weaving. :smallamused:

1. Weave awesome baskets
2. Use baskets to... hmm...
3. ???
4. Profit!

[Darwin]

Roll a turtle (ninja levels optional), eat, breathe, sleep, outlive Wizard. You win :smallbiggrin: No magic, 100% mundane.

[Angry Bob]

There was never a 'mundane' requirement, merely an acknowledgment that full casters are the best equipped for fighting other full caster.

[Waker]

Though mundane might not have been a requirement, I intentionally went for classes that lacked spellcasting in my builds. I mean, of course UMD and magic items could be used to compensate for gaps in offense/defense but I think its more amusing to build a character who is not magical to defeat a mage. I also wanted to avoid going with a charge build.

[The Glyphstone]

I think a changeling rogue 12 / marshal 1 / spymaster 7 has a decent shot. Gather Information to find out the whereabouts of the mage and how to get on its good side, Diplomacy to earn trust and Bluff to sell lies. Once the mage sleeps, you have it. All that's left to do is find a way to disable the contingencies.

Plus where to find his Magnificent Mansion (because really, who wouldn't sleep in one if they could?), as well as how to get into it (since you're probably not him, the only person he allows access inside). Gather Info won't help unless he shacks up in the same location every night, with a witness to spread the news.

But that's what UMD is for, and it's a class skill for most of that build.

[faceroll]

Plus where to find his Magnificent Mansion (because really, who wouldn't sleep in one if they could?), as well as how to get into it (since you're probably not him, the only person he allows access inside). Gather Info won't help unless he shacks up in the same location every night, with a witness to spread the news.

In D&D, a witness can be just about anything if you use a Speak With X effect. But only if the mage sleeps in the same area every night.

[Clepto]

As far as getting the drop on said caster, couldn't you do something with Telflammar Shadowlord to Shadow Pounce him? I know that doesn't help with stripping his other defenses, but DDooring in from behind him and still getting to attack seems like a decent start to a surprise round.

Someone mentioned DDooring behind earlier, but that doesn't work without Shadow Pounce or something similar.

[Cerlis]

Actually I had an amusing enough idea for a counter-mage while going about my day.
I mentioned before about Justicar using AM-shackles, but I decided I wanted to go with a completely different approach than that. Slap whatever skills and items you want on this guy.

Monk 2/Rogue 4/Fortune's Friend 5/Gatecrasher 4/Occult Slayer 5

Class variants would be Spell Reflection and Spell Sense (CM) to counter any ray spells used by the mage. The character would try to crank their touch AC as high as possible with Dex/Wis but if the mage still managed to hit them with their maximized orb spell, use Advantageous Avoidance to force the reroll. Dampening Field from Gatecrasher prevents reinforcements from being called in. For the Occult Slayer's signature weapon, I choose a dagger. Toss Force and Returning on it for fun. Find an item or potion with See Invisibility on it, so even if they jump ethereal you can still hit them.

I just like the idea of starting combat with a mage who decides to waste me with a maximized ray spell only to have it rebound on him.

Right, i forgot to say before, but i was thinking that someone who had both meddle and evasion, high saves, luck feat/features to reroll any missed saves, spell reflection, and a high touch AC (does the feat in races of stone that adds your armor to your touch ac use up your psionic focus or just while your focus is up. cus you wouldnt even need ranks in concentration. just take 20 on concentration every morning.

[Waker]

The feat from RoS is Deflective Armor, which only works when you wear heavy armor. The other psionic feats increase AC, which would be ignored by touch attacks.
And Mettle is a fun class ability, but since it's a 3rd level ability for a Hexblade, I opted to just take the lazier route and go with monk.

[SiuiS]

I like your thinking, but I don't think that this will protect you from the caster's Orb spells. Orbs work by RAW inside the AMF. All it takes is 1 or 2 sufficiently meta'd orbs to kill someone if you don't close the deal fast.


Orbs can be shot through an AMF but not cast while inside an AMF. The hole allows you to maintain your own magical defenses such as SR (AFB, think it works on orb spells though) and whatever anti-orb defenses you find prudent. If the DM rules that a pre-charges touch spell still works because it occurs inside the bubble, you should be able to make the save, shuck with resistance, or shuck with ironheart surge.

You're right though, the feasibility to success ratio isn't what it could be.

[Claudius Maximus]

Orbs can be shot through an AMF but not cast while inside an AMF. The hole allows you to maintain your own magical defenses such as SR (AFB, think it works on orb spells though) and whatever anti-orb defenses you find prudent. If the DM rules that a pre-charges touch spell still works because it occurs inside the bubble, you should be able to make the save, shuck with resistance, or shuck with ironheart surge.

You're right though, the feasibility to success ratio isn't what it could be.

There are a few problems with that particular tactic. You either are or are not in an AMF. An AMF does not block Line of Effect. So against a ranged spell you either get the full protection or none of it. A Magic Missile will go into the AMF, blink out, and then come right back on the other side, hitting you. Orbs don't even blink out. Thus the shaped AMF tactic is kind of ineffective.

Also Orbs are SR: No.

[Pechvarry]

The issue isn't that every wizard is teetering on TO territory. It's that, in order for a mage slayer to be effective, the wizard has to be less optimized than the melee character. I've seen many DMs calibrate their optimization levels to

This is a good and fair point. Though I feel a DM who knows how to optimize wizards probably understands the Tier system. In which case, I feel he should try to optimize to the tier of his players. Still, point taken.


Pechvarry's Arcane Hunter + Nemesis suggestion is the best way I know of for a non-ToB melee mage slayer to work. The Eldeen Ranger (Ashbound) PrC from Eberron is a great addition, giving +2 on saves, another Favored Enemy, and decent SR (well, decent for 10th level).

I don't actually own the book, but I understand there's a feat in Ghostwalk called Wise To Your Ways or some such that allows you to add Favored Enemy bonuses to saves. Obviously, this would be fantastic on an arcane hunter. Is that even a 1st party source?


A ToB-based mage slayer basically wants IHS, Island Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer + PMC, and lots of reach. Standard action for strikes, AoOs to hit the wizard, and try not to get killed.

Just a quick correction for any confused.

[Endarire]

Caster Side
On the caster side, there is Anti-Antimagic (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104.0).

Caster Killer Side
On the caster-killer side, you need these 5 effects, depending on level:

-Death ward/Soulfire Armor - Negative energy immunity.

-Freedom of movement - Crowd control immunity.

-Mind blank - Mind control and scry immunity.

-True seeing/Blindsight (or, at lower levels, see invisibility) - See those pesky invisible things, and possibly see through Illusions.

-Immunity to surprise. Foresight, a Weapon of Legacy, Dire Tortoise form, and some other means will do.

-Initiative! People underestimate the power of initiative. Especially against a caster, if you go first, you are guaranteed a turn!

Caster Defenses
The caster killer needs some effect that will harm the caster. Summonlings, death by stabbity death, projectiles (including spells), and divine intervention can work.

Let's assume that you've reached the battlefield with this caster. You have an opportunity to kill him if you can bypass these defenses.

-Paranoia. Were I a well reknowned caster, I'd invest heavily in defense. I'd assume that everyone and everything I did not greatly trust was out to get me, and even those I trusted weren't entirely trustworthy.

Defenses include traps, like explosive runes, spell turrets, or any magic trap. The caster may have lots of consumables on him, like staves and scrolls, thereby giving him more stamina.

-Defenses of at least your caliber. See the anti-caster necessities.

-Initiative. It's equally important for both sides. There's even a handbook for initiative (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)!

-Minions. They live to die to you and to kill you.

-Miss chances. See mirror image, blur, displacement, and all forms of concealment.

-High AC. You're better off trying to hit a well-prepared caster's touch AC than his normal AC. Really. It can feasibly be 16+4x his HD. His touch AC may be close behind his normal AC.

-High saves. You aren't the only one who invested in Diamond Mind maneuvers or got your weakest save into the 30s or 40s.

-Moderate to high HP. The difference in average HP between a d4 and d12 is only 4. Likely, the caster started with 14+ CON, vastly narrowing the gap. Assuming a L10 Wizard with 18 CON, that's 67 average HP. That's low, but he has other defenses, like a miss chance. A Warblade10 with 20 CON has 121 average HP but lacks a class feature which guarantees a miss chance.

-Contingent anything. Even one well-done contingency means that the caster escapes, probably to a well fortified area which will take you longer to reach than the caster to recharge.

-Your Princess Is In Another Castle. Maybe you merely faced his simulacrum or projected image or clone or astral projection or ice assassin or someone Disguised to look like him. Really, now. How do you get him to stay dead?

-Mobility. Teleport, plane shift, dimension door, gate, maze and so many more effects mean you two are now on different planes. How do you find him now?

More locally, people are expected to fly. The caster probably can and is. Maybe he's instead burrowed or turned incorporeal. How will you deal?