3.5/Pathfinder Why the Improved Feint hate?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I understand that Improved Feint is not always a viable action, especially when you have opportunities to flank, be invisible, what have you. ( I assume only a rogue would take Improved feint)

However, it is very nice to be able to get off a Sneak Attack at least once a round without flanking if necessarily... which Improved feint allows.

So why the hate? What else would you rather do with a move action that round if you don't have a flanking buddy?

[Zaq]

Feinting, even with Improved Feint, only works for a single attack (this can be mitigated with Surprising Riposte, but keep reading), makes you unable to move, and most importantly, denies you your full attack. If you're a melee type (and you are, or why would you be feinting? No, don't say that you're a beguiler. Beguilers know better), why would you choose to deny yourself a full attack? If the source of your damage is sneak attack, then use your move action to get somewhere where you can full attack and get actual sneak attack damage. One swing just doesn't cut it.

That, and it's a feat. The kinds of characters who could benefit from this generally don't have feats to throw around.

It's a bad feat. Stay away unless you're an Invisible Blade with Surprising Riposte.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

thats the thing though. Im not a TWF rogue. Im a rapier and buckler UMD rogue.

Now, several times i have not had a flanking partner. where am i supposed to move that gets me a sneak attack?!

The sorcerer in the party took Vampiric Touch instead of Improved Invisibility.

The full attack doesnt help me when it consists of 1d6+1, and maybe 1d6+1 again.

tell me please, how that is superior to 5d6+1?

This is something that has confused me for a long time.
Thank you for trying to cease my confusion! :smallsmile:

[Essence_of_War]

As said, unless you have the invisible blade capstone which allows you to feint as a free (swift?) action, it usually isn't worth the hit to your action economy.

Moreover, your opponent gets to oppose your bluff check with his sense motive + BAB. Against tough enemies of appropriate CR, this is rarely even guaranteed to work.

There is a possible exception. If you're a rogue at low levels with a single weapon, without iteratives. Even then, you have to ask, is that an efficient use of a feat that you get so few of? For a 1-shot, maybe. For a long term build, very doubtful.

[Essence_of_War]

Duncan,

I didn't see your follow-up post, but if you have a buckler, a wand of "Swift Invisibility" to use in your buckler hand is a fantastic investment! It is a first level spell, makes you invisible as a swift action, which turns on sneak attack against anyone you choose to attack.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher."

emphasis mine.

right now, my bluff is 17, including circlet of persuasion, could be 21 with the Alternate Half Elf Rogue favored class bonus: +1/2 bonus to bluff per level.

assuming a 16 wisdom, I could beat the first DC (10+BAB+WIS mod.) of an equivalent HD (8) creature every time.

Assuming the same opponent had maxed out Sense Motive, they would have... 24 Sense Motive, which I would beat almost every time, 3 or higher.

Even then, it wouldnt be any good?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Duncan,

I didn't see your follow-up post, but if you have a buckler, a wand of "Swift Invisibility" to use in your buckler hand is a fantastic investment! It is a first level spell, makes you invisible as a swift action, which turns on sneak attack against anyone you choose to attack.

Yes... unfortunately, our GM is avoiding very hard 3.5 spells... That is my primary tactic as a UMD rogue in 3.5. Every since our resident magic user abused certain spells (acid and sonic orbs) among others... 3.5 spells are looked at very critically.

The closest thing in Pathfinder is Vanish... 1 round/CL (max of 5) of invisibility as a level 1 spell... but it is a standard action. I do have that as a wand (as well as true strike, acid splash, cure light wounds and hide from undead) all in a Wand Bracer.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Duncan,

I didn't see your follow-up post, but if you have a buckler, a wand of "Swift Invisibility" to use in your buckler hand is a fantastic investment! It is a first level spell, makes you invisible as a swift action, which turns on sneak attack against anyone you choose to attack.

I was just about to write the same thing. If I'm right, you can also pay for a chamber in your buckler for the wand that keeps it readied (it's in Dungeonscape p.34, and Pathfinder is supposed to be backwards comparable). The chamber only costs +100gp to the cost of the shield.
That would be my choice.

Edit: Looks like I posted too late.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

actually yes, I was planning on getting a wand chamber for both my sword and my buckler. (maybe not the buckler, I already have the wand bracer decked out on that arm)

[Skjaldbakka]

If your GM thinks that spells like acid orb are broken, go ahead and take improved feint and use it to get your sneak attack off. He isn't prepared for the DPS you can do with a properly specc'd rogue, and will implement some arbitrary nerf like "sneak attack only works once per round" or similar BS.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

He doesnt think that he orb spells are broken... he just thinks casters dont need more help. Which spells do.

So... he wouldnt institute some "1/round sneak attack" because sneak attack doesnt help casters.

Playing straight out of the Pathfinder Core+APG, Casters are still awesome, and better off then the rest of us martial/skilled types. Thats why he restricts spells from 3.5.

its his game, he is justified in doing that. No one minds, including our Sorcerer, because he knows that he is playing a tier 2 class.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes... unfortunately, our GM is avoiding very hard 3.5 spells... That is my primary tactic as a UMD rogue in 3.5. Every since our resident magic user abused certain spells (acid and sonic orbs) among others... 3.5 spells are looked at very critically.

The closest thing in Pathfinder is Vanish... 1 round/CL (max of 5) of invisibility as a level 1 spell... but it is a standard action. I do have that as a wand (as well as true strike, acid splash, cure light wounds and hide from undead) all in a Wand Bracer.

Get a caster 2 wand of Vanish than. You don't need more than 2 rounds to attack (since you waste a round using standard action). Cost 1500 gp.

[Skjaldbakka]

Fair enough. As a UMD rogue, as opposed to OMGWTFBBQ2WFCUISANART rogue, I'd say that Improved Feint is a two feat investment that limits you to one attack with sneak attack damage, and one sneak attack isn't going to murderdeathkill something that is worth investing two feats into killing. More likely you stab something painfully enough that you are now its favorite snack, and are standing right next to it.

Of course, pathfinder rogue is quite a bit tougher than 3.5 rogue, so that might not be a problem.

Also in defense of improved feint, you aren't trying to hit harder than the fighter, you are trying to be more versatile (at least that is the vibe I'm getting). If you can get your AC up to respectable, such as with combat expertise (usable if you are hitting a flat-footed because of feint opponent), you can hit hard enough to keep something's attention, and be something of an off-tank that way when the situation warrants it.

[Akal Saris]

I'd talk to him about the spell anyways - it should be clear that this spell won't be very useful to a caster, but will be very important for your rogue.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Get a caster 2 wand of Vanish than. You don't need more than 2 rounds to attack (since you waste a round using standard action). Cost 1500 gp.

Yep, I do. Wand Bracer has: wand of Vanish CL 2, Wand of true strike, wand of acid splash, wand of Cure Light Wounds, wand of hide from undead.

I also spent some 6 or 7000 gp on scrolls. Im gonna convince the sorcerer to get scribe scroll and sell them to me at creation price. Hopefully. :smallbiggrin:

I have a rapier (+1 corrosive), a buckler (+1), and a mithril chainshirt (+1).

For Feats i have Improved Initiative and Magical Aptitude. (also, Skill Focus: UMD from being a Half Elf)

Im just trying to figure out how to spend my level 5 and 7 feats, preferably to up my Sneak Attack damage. *shrug*

Any advice would be appreciated, I guess, if Combat Expertise and Improved Feint really arent any good.

[The Glyphstone]

Can you persuade your DM to allow the 3.5 Craven feat from Champions of Ruin? It's hands-down the best precision damage feat in the game...adds your Character level (your total HD) as bonus damage whenever you sneak attack, though it gives you a -2 penalty on Fear saves.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Can you persuade your DM to allow the 3.5 Craven feat from Champions of Ruin? It's hands-down the best precision damage feat in the game...adds your Character level (your total HD) as bonus damage whenever you sneak attack, though it gives you a -2 penalty on Fear saves.

Yes, I could... though unfortunately, I don't see it as very like this character. Though, I could take the swashbuckler archetype from the APG, and cancel out the -2 to fear effects by rogue level 6... and still have Craven. hm.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, I could... though unfortunately, I don't see it as very like this character. Though, I could take the swashbuckler archetype from the APG, and cancel out the -2 to fear effects by rogue level 6... and still have Craven. hm.

Don't feel wedded to the fluff though, if you want to play a brave character who has a feat penalty to Fear checks. There's always ways to re-fluff bonuses or penalties if you put enough work into it, and it's usually more fun to write your own fluff anyways rather than stick with the lame stuff WoTC dribbles out.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"lame stuff WoTC dribbles out"

I feel like there is a joke here... i just can't put my finger on it. :smallsmile:

[Draz74]

Yeah, in your very specific case, Improved Feint would indeed be helpful. However, it's still up in the air whether it's worth spending two feats. :smallsigh: With no flanking help, no caster buffing help, and no surprise, a Rogue is simply not going to do much, regardless of whether or not he has Improved Feint.

Is Tome of Battle material allowed? Because you could get swift-action greater invisibility 1/encounter with a feat or a cheap item.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Yeah, in your very specific case, Improved Feint would indeed be helpful. However, it's still up in the air whether it's worth spending two feats. :smallsigh: With no flanking help, no caster buffing help, and no surprise, a Rogue is simply not going to do much, regardless of whether or not he has Improved Feint.

Is Tome of Battle material allowed? Because you could get swift-action greater invisibility 1/encounter with a feat or a cheap item.

No... ToB is never allowed with us. Sadly...we (for some reason, perhaps a feeling of self hating masochism) enjoy being the underdogs to casters, and feel it is (somehow) appropriate for spellcasters to be more powerful.

we like putting ourselves through this. :smallamused:

[faceroll]

See if you can't go with combat expertise + improved feint + feats that make combat expertise worth while. You get more feats in PF, right?


Don't feel wedded to the fluff though, if you want to play a brave character who has a feat penalty to Fear checks. There's always ways to re-fluff bonuses or penalties if you put enough work into it, and it's usually more fun to write your own fluff anyways rather than stick with the lame stuff WoTC dribbles out.

Why bother feeling wedded to the lame mechanics WotC dribbles out? I'm sure there are plenty of perfectly cromulent feats on the homebrew board.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Yes, there are more feats in pathfinder.

Of course, what feats make combat expertise better? Deadly Defense is all that comes to mind...

and as for Homebrew... Gahh! dont speak of the blasphemy. we try to take pride in our attempts at following RAW. (or RAI if it is more appropriate)

[ericgrau]

It's a reliable way to get sneak attack at low levels though, a time when it's nice to have a backup trigger as the mundane ways don't always work. Once you get multiple attacks at high levels ya it gets worse. Level 8+ ya, but with the medium BAB rogue really once you get haste for a 2nd max BAB attack is when it matters. Soon after that you get another reliable sneak attack trigger without a feat. Otherwise I suppose its decent for the lower half of the levels. Before someone pops in and says the obvious "TWF", it has significant drawbacks in paying for 2 weapons and lack of buckler defense on a fragile class. Both TWF or buckler or even 1 weapon alone are viable, TWF perhaps less so, meaning improved feint is viable at low levels.

IMO it would be great if the DM allowed improved feint to be retrained or upgradable to a swift action or attack action with another feat at higher levels (maybe a BAB pre-req).

[Skjaldbakka]

Well, lets go ahead and say two weapon fighting then... on a rogue, the benefits blow away any disadvantage. In point of fact, rogue is pretty much the only class (ok, maybe ninja also) that should use two weapon fighting, once it can get reliable sneak attack from invisibility/flanking etc, and finds ways around the 'everyone and there brother is immune to sneak attack at high level' problem.

Unless you are a very strange rogue, your d6s from sneak attack are your primary damage output, and they are doubled by two weapon fighting.

Being fragile isn't even a problem in Pathfinder, because they really boosted the rogue. To the point that I don't know why anyone would play a fighter in Pathfinder.

That doesn't mean every rogue should take two weapon fighting though. Just every rogue that is focused on doing lots of damage.

[The Glyphstone]

If your party won't cooperate with your flanking, why not make your own? A Wand of Summon Monster would give you a significant supply of cheap flanking buddies.

[PinkysBrain]

So why the hate? What else would you rather do with a move action that round if you don't have a flanking buddy?
There are few positions more consistently lethal in D&D for PCs than the melee range of NPCs ... an outright choice to get into that position needs to be counterbalanced with a proportional benefit, the benefit usually being "ending the encounter sooner".

At higher level melee with feint doesn't actually do that ... you can just pick up a bow and do just as much damage, with less risk.

Improved Feint works till around level 7, the problem with 3.5/PF is that there is a huge shift in the game because haste and iterative attacks kick in in full gear nearly simultaneously. Even better, iteratives continue to scale a bit. In the meanwhile standard action attacks become almost a waste of time (often you're better off buffing to get off a better full attack).

Tome of Battle taught a lesson which Paizo unfortunately refused to learn, instead of providing martial characters with better standard actions they just piled on the damage and effectiveness (crit riders) on full attacks ... they made a bad problem worse.

[Dacia Brabant]

Are psionics allowed? If so, and presuming magic/psionics transparency, you could pick up a Dorje of Hustle for 4,500 gp and easily hit the UMD/UPD check, trading your swift action for an extra move action to use for improved feint + full attack.

[PinkysBrain]

Minimum time to activate a spell trigger item is a standard action.

Dunno if Psionics Unleashed allowed Psi-Crowns to be activated as a swift action (I know they know that half the existing crowns had powers which were useless if they didn't, so if they simply pretended the problem didn't exist I'd be bloody disappointed).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Minimum time to activate a spell trigger item is a standard action.

As of the Rules Compendium, it's errata'd to "or the casting time of the spell, whichever is shorter," I believe.

[ericgrau]

Well, lets go ahead and say two weapon fighting then... on a rogue, the benefits blow away any disadvantage.
It's like they don't even read my posts. Heck, there are threads on this too, recent and old, not counting the hundreds of threads on "Help my rogue keeps dying". More attacks, but not necessarily more hits or damage, and more fragile. Buckler rogues deal more damage before they can't move no more. Even when you finally get around the fragility issue with something like greater invisibility there's still the medium BAB and -2 AB issue, meaning past ~5 attacks you're losing actual hits. All while doing less damage per hit because enchanting your weapons costs double. Heck at higher levels when you get all those attacks you might even ignore the buckler and fight with 1 weapon and still be okay. Especially if you need it for some other tactic like improved feint. Maybe not in char op with custom UMD itemed wraithstrike and what not, but at least for the hundreds of dying casual players making those threads b/c everyone told them to TWF.

So ya even if TWF were even on par with SWF, improved feint is a viable option at low levels. The real problem comes around the time when you get haste and maybe greater invisibility or blink or etc., which varies by group. Not every wizard provides them. So the problem is it becomes a wasted feat come high level.

As for hustle, could you maybe get tatoos or power stones or other items as a swift, or do they have the same problem as dorjes? I know it works on scrolls.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I read your posts! it was one of your posts from August 2010 about rogues that made me change my general strategy of TWF to rapier, buckler, and UMD. I have had SO much more fun with rogues as a result, not to mention that YES, they survive longer before pulling out of the fight is a good idea.

So thank you ericgrau for expanding my rogue experience!

[faceroll]

If your party won't cooperate with your flanking, why not make your own? A Wand of Summon Monster would give you a significant supply of cheap flanking buddies.

If you want SMn to be efficient, it gets expensive at a rather quick clip, due to SM1 lasting 1 round and taking 1 round to summon.

[Rixx]

Optimally, you will always have a flanking partner, and optimally, you will be a TWF rogue who full-attacks whenever possible, and optimal situations should happen all the time optimally optimal optimizing.

[The Glyphstone]

If you want SMn to be efficient, it gets expensive at a rather quick clip, due to SM1 lasting 1 round and taking 1 round to summon.

SM1 is bad, yeah. The value is in SM3+, which can summon you a fair number of disposable goons that last for at least 5 turns. More expensive up-front, but better in the long run.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

so combat expertise and Improved Feint are a no-no beyond level 7ish... so what would you all replace those two feats with instead?

[true_shinken]

I think the point is that Improved Feint is actually not that good at feinting.
-Einhander feints (with Sleight of Hand) as a free (or was it swift?)action, 1/encounter
-Invisible Blade feints as a free action, 1/round
-Scarlet Corsair also gets free feints, but with a cooldown

Your UMB buckler Rogue seems like he could use the feat, it seems. If someone dips Beguiler, Improved Feint becomes a swift action, so it's a bit better.
Very few feats suck all the time. There are uses for Improved Feint.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

so.. i should take Improved Feint? :smallamused:

[Skjaldbakka]

If you're dying and not hitting then its because you're not optimized to be a two-weapon fighting rogue, and/or you don't know what you're doing when you're playing one.

Also, pathfinder rogues aren't nearly as fragile as 3.5 rogue by far. They get a d8 HD and a bunch more class features than 3.5 rogue.


Lets go point by point:

1. Having a buckler doesn't require you not have two weapon fighting. It is still a cheap way to get more AC, which works right up to when you actually get into position to execute your full attack, which when done correctly removes the need to stay in melee for any extended period. Heck, you could even take improved buckler defense and two weapon fight while keeping the +6 AC bonus.

2. Rogue with two weapon fighting isn't a flurry of misses like you seem to think, unless you aren't playing a combat rogue. A rogue that is focused on doing damage needs Dexterity. That's it. On a certain level you need Con as well, but no more than any other class. With that kind of single attribute focus and weapon finesse, you shouldn't have any trouble hitting at all, most monsters aren't AC-riffic.

This is before taking into account magic items and UMD, which since UMD is a class skill for a rogue, should not be overlooked. Since UMD is only the most powerful skill in the game, after all.

3. Wands with wraithstrike and improved invisibility just flat out fix the entire problem with to-hit. Especially when the DM allows storing wands in buckler/weapon (which this DM does, as stated previously).

4. Keeping your AC in line with the attack bonuses you'll see on monsters is a losing battle as a rogue, even with a buckler. If the monster is supposed to eat your face in melee, and you're a rogue, your best defense is to put it down in half the time by using an off hand weapon to double your damage output.

5. Lastly, even if two weapon fighting wasn't better for a damage focused rogue (hardly the only viable style of rogue, btw), improved feint isn't a problem just for two weapon fighting. If you want to do good damage, making one sneak attack a round isn't going to compare to what the fighter is doing each round, without needing anything more than power attack and a two handed weapon.

It can be situationaly useful though, and combat expertise is a solid rogue feat, so it isn't really like you are burning two feats to get there.

[faceroll]

SM1 is bad, yeah. The value is in SM3+, which can summon you a fair number of disposable goons that last for at least 5 turns. More expensive up-front, but better in the long run.

Bit expensive, for sure. I'm not sure when it'd be worth investing in, as opposed to cheaper utility items. Summon Nature's Ally is better at low levels, as opposed to Summon Monster.

[Ragitsu]

Is feinting good in D&D 3.5/Pathfinder?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Is feinting good in D&D 3.5/Pathfinder?

That was... kinda the purpose of the thread. Answering that question. Maybe if you read it? :smallconfused:

[Ragitsu]

That was... kinda the purpose of the thread. Answering that question. Maybe if you read it? :smallconfused:

I thought the thread was about a Feat in particular, not the combat option itself.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

the option itself sucks, unless you have one of the various methods to make it better somehow.