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theonesin
2011-01-17, 10:00 PM
So, after several sessions, the DM suddenly decided that our d20-based stats were too powerful and kept him from properly designing encounters, and thus made us reroll our stats using the standard 4d6 drop lowest system.

Unforuntely, stats are now 17, 16, 12, 11, 11, 8 (no, I can't reroll these). My character was a level 2 Changeling Factotum at this point, and I planned to go into the Chameleon PrC at level 6. But with my stats now, I don't feel like I can pull this off effectively.

I'm still the party skillmonkey/trapfinder, so I'm wondering (should my DM allow it) if I should rebuild my character as a Rogue instead (using the same race and rolled stats).

Thoughts?

Zaq
2011-01-17, 10:04 PM
One or two big stats will benefit a factotum much more than a rogue, methinks. As for Chameleon . . . I say go for it anyway, unless your GM is really stingy with the magic items (in which case, you're a Chameleon, so craft 'em yourself!). By the time you can enter Chameleon, you'll be able to have at least one or two +2 items to shore up your weaker stats . . . and if it's really critical (for example, you need to boost your WIS for Divine Focus), Chameleon itself gives you a floating stat boost.

I say you're fine, really.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-17, 10:09 PM
I would do something like this... as a rogue preferably, but thats cos I think Factotums are silly.

STR: 11
DEX: 17
CON: 11
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

max out UMD, whatever other skills you wanted... Disable device, etc, all the usual suspects...

rapier, MW buckler. use wands and scrolls in the buckler hand.

wand Bracer: dungeonscape allows you to free action draw 5 wands.

wand chamber: allows you to use a wand without drawing it at all: because it is in your sword and shield. also dungeonscape

Psyren
2011-01-17, 10:17 PM
Why can't you be a factotum with those stats? 17 in Int, 16 in Dex, 12 in Con 11 Cha+Str, 8 Wis. You'll be a little squishy but you can just rely on ranged attacks, spells, and the other party members to protect you. (They'll have to since you are the skillet.)

I don't see how downgrading to a narrower class will help any of you.

theonesin
2011-01-17, 10:26 PM
Well, my character until now was mostly a melee character (though using a reach weapon). I have a short bow, but I never really used it.

The problem isn't just about Factotum, but about Chameleon as well. The entire point is that the PrC allows you to do a bit of everything, but to me, if felt like my new stats would inhibit that. So I thought narrowing my focus might actually work better due to my stats.

On another note, the party makeup is as follows: Barbarian, Monk, Wizard, Knight, and NPC Healer.

sonofzeal
2011-01-17, 10:33 PM
STR: 11
DEX: 17
CON: 11
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 12
Personally, I'd actually recommend against this. I know it's the conventional Rogue layout, high Dex and Int, but I've never been one for conventions. More importantly, there isn't actually any major reason for it from the Rogue's statblock. Nothing they get is directly tied to Dex or Int; Evasion works with Dex but your Ref save is high anyway, and your skill list is awesome but you get enough skill points that 10 Int is usually enough unless you're trying to grab all the rogue skills plus all the acrobatics skills plus all the social skills, and to be perfectly frank there's no real reason for that beyond attempting to fit a fairly artificial archetype.

It also necessitates wasting a feat on Weapon Finesse, relying exclusively on SA for damage, and not being able to take a hit. Consider the following...

STR: 17
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 8
CHA: 11

Same attack bonus, more damage, more durability (and higher Fort save, which can be a lifesaver), no need for Weapon Finesse. The big loss is TWF, but the studious builder can dip Ranger, or take a level of Fighter and nab Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2) for a superior AC and a classier combat style. This character would be more of a swaggering in-your-face brawler, able to fight fairly well face-to-face but becoming deadly with a flanking buddy.



As to the original question, Factotum-> Chameleon should be just fine. Pump Int, and you'll be okay.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-17, 10:38 PM
The OP said he was the skillmonkey/trapfinder, which is why I offered such a conventional build.

I personally dont like my INT above 14 for a rogue, and I like a good CON (at least 14)

Sometimes the conventional archetypes are just whats needed. especially considering the stats the OP has to work with....

dspeyer
2011-01-17, 10:50 PM
If you want to do a lot of different things with only a few good stats, you want ways to add those stats to a lot of things. Hence, factotum.

theonesin
2011-01-17, 10:53 PM
That's what I wanted to do originally. But with my stats the way they are now, I question how effective I would be at that, as opposed to narrowing my focus on something instead.

sonofzeal
2011-01-17, 10:57 PM
The OP said he was the skillmonkey/trapfinder, which is why I offered such a conventional build.

I personally dont like my INT above 14 for a rogue, and I like a good CON (at least 14)

Sometimes the conventional archetypes are just whats needed. especially considering the stats the OP has to work with....
To be fair, he'll still be a totally competent trapfinder. With 8 skill points (10, if he takes the Changeling Rogue ACF)... Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, oh hey now our trapfinding's just fine and we have 5-7 skills left to choose.


Another option would be to keep Dex high, but have that 16 in Charisma and the 12 in Wis, shuffling the 8 into Str most likely. Take Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and... oh, any of Forgery, Disguise, Gather Info, or Know:Nobility. Take the classic Rogue feats, but focus on the RP and social manipulations.



That's what I wanted to do originally. But with my stats the way they are now, I question how effective I would be at that, as opposed to narrowing my focus on something instead.
You'll be fine. It's also possible to focus on something, even inside Factotum. For example, with the 17 in Int and the 16 in Str, you can exploit Brains Over Brawn and Improved Trip to get a +10 trip modifier, and be able to pull ogres off their feet. Take Enlarge Person as one of your spells, and you'll have the edge on most things you're ever likely to meet.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-17, 11:01 PM
Dont ever tell someone to be a CHA Rogue, and then forget UMD! :smalleek:

Most powerful skill in the game, anything any caster you care to name can do, so can you. (with a high enough skill bonus, that is.)

theonesin
2011-01-17, 11:07 PM
To be honest, RP isn't my strong suit, so I'd rather not play a character focused so much in it.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 11:08 PM
Another option would be to keep Dex high, but have that 16 in Charisma and the 12 in Wis, shuffling the 8 into Str most likely. Take Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and... oh, any of Forgery, Disguise, Gather Info, or Know:Nobility. Take the classic Rogue feats, but focus on the RP and social manipulations.

Not to mention UMD to protect himself.

But seriously though... Factotum. With both Dex and Int pumping your Initiative, you should have few problems avoiding nasty surprises. (Int to Strength checks is just icing on the cake.)

theonesin
2011-01-17, 11:33 PM
You still think Chameleon will work well?

sonofzeal
2011-01-17, 11:35 PM
You still think Chameleon will work well?
It could. Your stats are a bit specialized so you may be better off finding one or two tricks that work and sticking to them, but Chameleon Changeling Factotums are too awesome to pass up, and you should be competent. You just won't have all the flexibility of a normal Chameleon. You'll still be entirely playable.

theonesin
2011-01-18, 12:16 AM
Aside from having the 17 in Int, any suggestions on how I should arrange my remaining stats with Chameleon in mind?

sonofzeal
2011-01-18, 12:28 AM
Aside from having the 17 in Int, any suggestions on how I should arrange my remaining stats with Chameleon in mind?
Depends. The placement of that 16 will have a big effect on what styles are actually feasible. Personally, I'd put it in Str and have fun that way, but I like my melee characters. Str or Dex are probably your best choices, really.

Arbitrarious
2011-01-18, 12:41 AM
I think chameleon will depend on what you want to do with it. You may not have the full breadth of flexibility it offers, but even with only 1 or 2 of it's tricks it isn't bad. What kind of character did you want to end up with. What do you do well? what kind of gimmicks do you want to have?

theonesin
2011-01-18, 12:44 AM
Well, I was really looking forward to the idea of having access to both arcane and divine spellcasting (especially at the same time at later Chameleon levels).

sonofzeal
2011-01-18, 12:51 AM
Well, I was really looking forward to the idea of having access to both arcane and divine spellcasting (especially at the same time at later Chameleon levels).

You might be better served by a Druid / Wizard / Arcane Heirophant, in that case. High Wis and Int, get that 12 in Con and boost it asap, and wildshape into something nasty to shore up those other physical scores. Use your spells for skillmonkey work - Knock and Acid Splash can deal with a lot of Roguey problems. Summon Monster I can deal with many traps. Take useful spells, and you should be fine.

theonesin
2011-01-18, 01:24 AM
Hmm, really? I never thought about being a spellcaster that handles traps.

Psyren
2011-01-18, 01:27 AM
Hmm, really? I never thought about being a spellcaster that handles traps.

Trapsmith Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8450180&postcount=9)
Disassembler Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6747471&postcount=10)

Note that they were concocted by the same evil genius friendly poster

Thurbane
2011-01-18, 01:48 AM
I think this was made by a forum member a while back:

http://i54.tinypic.com/10e0wmh.png

Trapsmith Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8450180&postcount=9)
Disassembler Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6747471&postcount=10)

Note that they were concocted by the same evil genius friendly poster
...or, you know, Beguiler.

Psyren
2011-01-18, 01:51 AM
...or, you know, Beguiler.

Was going off the earlier suggestion of Arcane Hierophant. Beguiler could somewhat work with his stats though.


I think this was made by a forum member a while back:

http://i54.tinypic.com/10e0wmh.png


So, is the Ninja being ironic, or what's up with that? :smalltongue:

The lack of Psychic Rogue makes me sad :smallfrown:

Zaq
2011-01-18, 01:53 AM
So, is the Ninja being ironic, or what's up with that? :smalltongue:

The lack of Psychic Rogue makes me sad :smallfrown:

The ninja is a swordsage. It doesn't need any levels in anything from Complete Adventurer if it doesn't want them.

Psyren
2011-01-18, 01:56 AM
The ninja is a swordsage. It doesn't need any levels in anything from Complete Adventurer if it doesn't want them.

That's what I thought, until I saw it was begging people to take levels in the class, leading me to believe it was indeed the CAdv Ninja.

Greenish
2011-01-18, 09:48 AM
To be fair, he'll still be a totally competent trapfinder. With 8 skill points (10, if he takes the Changeling Rogue ACF)... Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, oh hey now our trapfinding's just fine and we have 5-7 skills left to choose.Changeling rogue sub levels are lovely, but they do trade out trapfinding.

[Edit]:
That's what I thought, until I saw it was begging people to take levels in the class, leading me to believe it was indeed the CAdv Ninja.Maybe it's OA's Ninja Spy.

RaveingRonin
2011-01-18, 10:47 AM
If you want to be a skill monkey, be a factotem, hands down.
If you want to stab people in the kidneys from the shadows at noon, be a rogue, hands down.

Arbitrarious
2011-01-19, 12:26 AM
Well, I was really looking forward to the idea of having access to both arcane and divine spellcasting (especially at the same time at later Chameleon levels).

Well UMD can grant you access to all sorts of spells. What about dual casting attracted you? Sheer flexibility? volume of power? Flavor? Really even with a bad stat or 2 the options are astounding. Personally, I love me some psionic swordsage mix. Not optimum in terms of power, but a huge bag of tricks to play with, might be hard with your stats as I prefer psion vs psychic warrior. You could talk to your DM about a psionic jade phoenix mage or some of the fine homebrew a forum over. Splash rogue or some such for actual honest-to-goodness trapfinding and be done with it.

Coidzor
2011-01-19, 07:39 AM
Your stats were too high and he was unable to deal with this? :smallconfused: That's just... utterly bizarre.