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CycloneJoker
2011-01-17, 10:05 PM
My DM has a thing against casters (who can blame him?), Tome of Battle (I can on this one), and, to a lesser degree, Psionics. I was wondering if there was a way I could make something designed for abusing the action economy without those, and preferably usable in an AMF? The only thing I can think of is a Factotum, and as much as I love them, I wanted to A) do something different, and B) my DM is picky about online stuff. Oh, and there is normally everything-magic transparency (except Incarnum).

Thanks for any ideas and insight.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-17, 10:11 PM
Aptitude Weapons + Lightning Maces can produce a preposterous number of attacks with threat range increases.

Zaq
2011-01-17, 10:17 PM
Oh, and there is normally everything-magic transparency (except Incarnum).

How is it even possible for Incarnum to be treated "differently"? Does Mage Armor work against a Psywar's claw attack but not a Totemist's? What does that even mean?

Sorry, but that's just baffling to me.

Anyway, there's always minion mastery, be it Handle Animal (anyone have a link to Bubs?), Diplomacy/Diplomancy, or just straight up Leadership. More characters under your thumb = more actions.

Urpriest
2011-01-17, 10:17 PM
A purely mundane way to break the action economy?

Handle Animal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38).

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-17, 10:25 PM
Factorum 8 + Font of Inspiration.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-17, 10:30 PM
Aptitude Weapons + Lightning Maces can produce a preposterous number of attacks with threat range increases.

How would you do that? Imp. Crit+Disciple of whatever the iron demon/devil dude is?


How is it even possible for Incarnum to be treated "differently"? Does Mage Armor work against a Psywar's claw attack but not a Totemist's? What does that even mean?

Sorry, but that's just baffling to me.

Anyway, there's always minion mastery, be it Handle Animal (anyone have a link to Bubs?), Diplomacy/Diplomancy, or just straight up Leadership. More characters under your thumb = more actions.

I dunno, Mind=/=Soul?


A purely mundane way to break the action economy?

Handle Animal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38).

So I'm hearing that minions is the only way? So there's no real way I can go all Clock Up on people? :smallfrown:

And, Shneeky, I'm not sure I can convince my DM do allow online stuff, as I said in the OP. I love them and all, I just don't think he'll let me. I think he might have PTSD after the last time I DMed and threw a Factotum who my group couldn't hurt. Also, I'd like to know if there would be a way to improve damage output in such a way that I wouldn't run out of inspiration in nothing flat.

Psychonix
2011-01-17, 10:47 PM
And, Shneeky, I'm not sure I can convince my DM do allow online stuff, as I said in the OP. I love them and all, I just don't think he'll let me. I think he might have PTSD after the last time I DMed and threw a Factotum who my group couldn't hurt. Also, I'd like to know if there would be a way to improve damage output in such a way that I wouldn't run out of inspiration in nothing flat.

Factotum is from dungeonscape...its in a book...it may also be online, but, primarily, it is in a book...

Thurbane
2011-01-17, 10:49 PM
FoI, however, is online only...

SiuiS
2011-01-17, 10:50 PM
Had to register because I know no one knows this one.

Feat from dragon lance; Heroic Surge. Grants you 1/4 levels each day, an extra action, period. So, [heroic surge]move action up to enemy, [normal] flurry/full attack/shenanigans. It took my red dragon with a bunch of "wasted feats" for rapid strike from being flying meat, to an efficient monk. You know, what the monk should be?

Don't have books here, but I think it's in the campaign guide. A real gem, in the right hands. And it's in an actual, physical WoTC approved book.

Psychonix
2011-01-17, 10:52 PM
FoI, however, is online only...

I have to give you that.

Akal Saris
2011-01-17, 11:09 PM
Had to register because I know no one knows this one.

Feat from dragon lance; Heroic Surge. Grants you 1/4 levels each day, an extra action, period. So, [heroic surge]move action up to enemy, [normal] flurry/full attack/shenanigans. It took my red dragon with a bunch of "wasted feats" for rapid strike from being flying meat, to an efficient monk. You know, what the monk should be?

Don't have books here, but I think it's in the campaign guide. A real gem, in the right hands. And it's in an actual, physical WoTC approved book.

Thanks for sharing that one :) Would definitely be worth taking in several builds' 18th level slot!

Zeful
2011-01-18, 12:10 AM
I was wondering if there was a way I could make something designed for abusing the action economy

So in essence you want to make the entire campaign a joke in where you hog all the glory and do everything important?

CycloneJoker
2011-01-18, 12:45 AM
Factotum is from dungeonscape...its in a book...it may also be online, but, primarily, it is in a book...

See below


FoI, however, is online only...

This.


Had to register because I know no one knows this one.

Feat from dragon lance; Heroic Surge. Grants you 1/4 levels each day, an extra action, period. So, [heroic surge]move action up to enemy, [normal] flurry/full attack/shenanigans. It took my red dragon with a bunch of "wasted feats" for rapid strike from being flying meat, to an efficient monk. You know, what the monk should be?

Don't have books here, but I think it's in the campaign guide. A real gem, in the right hands. And it's in an actual, physical WoTC approved book.

Nice! I'll have to keep this one in mind. Thanks


So in essence you want to make the entire campaign a joke in where you hog all the glory and do everything important?

Nah, I'm pretty sure there's going to be a Totemist charge build, and someone else was talking about what was basically ans untouchable Dwarf, something like Chaos Monk/Barbarian/Deepwarden/FotF. I wanted to do something different.

I got clarification from my DM that PsyWar is okay, and PrCs that I can go to from them, but that is the extent to Psionics. Does that open more doors?

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-18, 12:54 AM
And it's in an actual, physical WoTC approved book.

Be careful about that. WotC only made the DCS. All the other Dragonlance sourcebooks were made by another company (Sovereign Press), making them 3rd party.

The "Official WotC Licensed Product" thing is on a huge amount of 3rd party material.

Nevertheless if you can get the book allowed go nuts.

ericgrau
2011-01-18, 02:39 AM
Magic items, poison, stunning fist (on a ki focus weapon). There are some high DC ones but even the low DC ones give you free effects on top of your normal attacks. Stack a dozen and one of the saves will fail even at low DC. Spell storing weapons also discharge as a free action.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 03:28 AM
I got clarification from my DM that PsyWar is okay, and PrCs that I can go to from them, but that is the extent to Psionics. Does that open more doors?

Not many, Psy War's are more about buffing than breaking the action economy. If you could get hidden talent or expanded knowledge for psionic minor creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorcreationpsionic.htm)for a reliable source of poison (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)that doesn't require gold and downtime, then you'd have a bit of something, since you could at least get some level of taking others' actions away to make your guys' actions worth more due to lack of resistance. But that interpretation of action economy advantage is pretty tenuous.

I believe there's some method by which to increase one's initiative as a Psy War so that one can go sooner at least.

Godskook
2011-01-18, 03:31 AM
Jack B. Quick is an AoO machine, so you can probably start with that.

Ernir
2011-01-18, 07:37 AM
I got clarification from my DM that PsyWar is okay, and PrCs that I can go to from them, but that is the extent to Psionics. Does that open more doors?

Take a look at the Linked Power feat from CPsi, and read creatively.

Also, Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike. I'm sure you'll find something that will amuse you and annoy your DM...

Psyren
2011-01-18, 07:54 AM
Not many, Psy War's are more about buffing than breaking the action economy.

Surely you jest sir.

PLC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psioniclionscharge.htm) = pounce
Link Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) to everything
Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) - Your second brain manifests Dimension Slide, Hop or Door (How many ways does one class need to teleport, anyway?) and you can full attack. Or just use Inconstant Location, and have your second mind ponder the works of Tolstoy or poison your weapons or something.
Synchronicity = No thanks, I'll take my action later. Anticipatory Strike = I'll go first, thanks. Temporal Acceleration = Everybody hang on while I buff. (You need a mantle for this one.) Give yourself extra attacks of opportunity, or morph into a Choker (you're an Elan/Synad, right?) and Metamorphic Transfer its free Standard action for yourself etc.

Speaking of Mantles, get one! Time, Freedom, Guardian, Justice, kick ass and take names.

poignant123
2011-01-18, 08:48 AM
There's an item called Bloodspike (tempo) in Faiths of Eberron. If you take 1 damage by injecting it into yourself, you can take an additional move action within the next 1 hour.

It's a mundane item. :smalltongue:

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-18, 09:13 AM
There's an item called Bloodspike (tempo) in Faiths of Eberron. If you take 1 damage by injecting it into yourself, you can take an additional move action within the next 1 hour.

It's a mundane item. :smalltongue:
That... sounds very unbalanced. Of course, unbalanced compared to existant melee tricks. If everyone has it, it's just damn cool. Adrenaline shots FTW!

Person_Man
2011-01-18, 10:42 AM
Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) has a few action economy tricks. Basically you spend 1 level on Master of Masks (or 12ish on Binder) to get proficiency with every Exotic weapon. You arm yourself with a Braid Blade (free extra attack), Razor Net (Entangle), Flindbars (free Disarm), Pincer Staff (free Grapple), and a Ritiik (free Trip), plus your favorite ranged/thrown weapons. You need Quickdraw and 4+ copies of each weapon (unless you have enough hands to carry 1 of each), because you'll probably need to drop each weapon after using it.

Psychonix
2011-01-18, 12:34 PM
Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7515.0) a list of ways of gaining additional actions.

dextercorvia
2011-01-18, 01:26 PM
How does he feel about Duskblade?

Stand is a 1st level Duskblade teleportation spell that let's you teleport to standing from prone as an immediate action. Falling prone is a Free Action. Combine with Sun School and Shadow Jaunt. Season with Dimension Hop and Eternal wands of Benign Transposition (let your familiar move up and then switch with them) and Dimension Step for standard actions.

Shou Disciple lets you get Sun School without Monk levels or lost BAB.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-18, 06:27 PM
Take a look at the Linked Power feat from CPsi, and read creatively.

Also, Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike. I'm sure you'll find something that will amuse you and annoy your DM...

Those powers are sexy. Very, VERY sexy. Shame I'm going to need to use Expanded Knowledge a lot.


Surely you jest sir.

PLC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psioniclionscharge.htm) = pounce
Link Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) to everything
Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) - Your second brain manifests Dimension Slide, Hop or Door (How many ways does one class need to teleport, anyway?) and you can full attack. Or just use Inconstant Location, and have your second mind ponder the works of Tolstoy or poison your weapons or something.
Synchronicity = No thanks, I'll take my action later. Anticipatory Strike = I'll go first, thanks. Temporal Acceleration = Everybody hang on while I buff. (You need a mantle for this one.) Give yourself extra attacks of opportunity, or morph into a Choker (you're an Elan/Synad, right?) and Metamorphic Transfer its free Standard action for yourself etc.

Speaking of Mantles, get one! Time, Freedom, Guardian, Justice, kick ass and take names.

Need Expanded Knowledge for Schism, but I appear to have feats to blow with PsyWar, so that looks good. And how do I do that? I'm not an Ardent?

Also, yes I am planning to be an Elan. The only way I can see to get benefit from Choker is Metamorphosis+Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species. Is that what you were thinking?


There's an item called Bloodspike (tempo) in Faiths of Eberron. If you take 1 damage by injecting it into yourself, you can take an additional move action within the next 1 hour.

It's a mundane item. :smalltongue:

Wait, it's MUNDANE? Really? I was planning on using it, but I have seen people talking about making them, and I cannot find how to. Can someone explain?


Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7515.0) a list of ways of gaining additional actions.

Thanks, very useful.


How does he feel about Duskblade?

Stand is a 1st level Duskblade teleportation spell that let's you teleport to standing from prone as an immediate action. Falling prone is a Free Action. Combine with Sun School and Shadow Jaunt. Season with Dimension Hop and Eternal wands of Benign Transposition (let your familiar move up and then switch with them) and Dimension Step for standard actions.

Shou Disciple lets you get Sun School without Monk levels or lost BAB.

He was pretty clear that magic was off unless someone wanted to play a Mini's Handbook Healer, and this seemed more fun than exploding one person an encounter, then having to get Atoned. What's Sun School?

Darrin
2011-01-18, 07:15 PM
Wait, it's MUNDANE? Really? I was planning on using it, but I have seen people talking about making them, and I cannot find how to. Can someone explain?


Bloodspikes are alchemical items (although the fluff on most Eberron alchemy goes charging off into that blurry wilderness between science/magic/steampunk). Unless specifically identified as magical effects, alchemical items are treated as non-magical. Unfortunately, the Craft DCs to create them have never been printed. So while no one quite knows how to make them, they can be purchased as equipment (prices range from 50-150 GP).

Psyren
2011-01-18, 07:26 PM
Also, yes I am planning to be an Elan. The only way I can see to get benefit from Choker is Metamorphosis+Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species. Is that what you were thinking?

While that might work (depending on your DM) I was referring to Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) actually.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-18, 08:09 PM
Sun School lets you make a free attack whenever you come out of a teleport. So that trick (which is beautiful) effectively lets you turn a spell slot and a swift action into another attack. If your DM allows that, try to later get into Crinti Shadow Marauder or Teflammar Shadow Lord, which give you Shadow Pounce - a full attack whenever you come out of a teleport. You can also aim to enter those if you stay with PsyWar, since they go just as well with Dimension Hop as with anything else.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 08:18 PM
Bloodspikes are alchemical items (although the fluff on most Eberron alchemy goes charging off into that blurry wilderness between science/magic/steampunk).

Alchemical items were already treated as blurry between science and magic.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-18, 08:51 PM
Bloodspikes are alchemical items (although the fluff on most Eberron alchemy goes charging off into that blurry wilderness between science/magic/steampunk). Unless specifically identified as magical effects, alchemical items are treated as non-magical. Unfortunately, the Craft DCs to create them have never been printed. So while no one quite knows how to make them, they can be purchased as equipment (prices range from 50-150 GP).

Oh sweet! Also, kinda lame, but I just need to get enough. Tempos are 150, IIRC, so I should be able to get plenty.


While that might work (depending on your DM) I was referring to Metamorphic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) actually.

I think my method is more effective, and I can't think of a reading that would go in the opposite direction, but if I can't go that way, I'll use that.


Sun School lets you make a free attack whenever you come out of a teleport. So that trick (which is beautiful) effectively lets you turn a spell slot and a swift action into another attack. If your DM allows that, try to later get into Crinti Shadow Marauder or Teflammar Shadow Lord, which give you Shadow Pounce - a full attack whenever you come out of a teleport. You can also aim to enter those if you stay with PsyWar, since they go just as well with Dimension Hop as with anything else.

I think, now that I've used sufficient Google-Fu to locate the Mantled Warrior AFC I will need all the manifester levels I can get. Especially since I can modify the mantle. Does anyone know any good PrCs with the same idea and almost perfect ML advancement? I can only find Slayer, and it seems kinda underwhelming.

Roderick_BR
2011-01-18, 08:59 PM
The best way, I think, is with Attacks of Opportunity. Reach weapon + Combat Reflexes + High Dex. Add at your leisure: Stand Still (stops movement), Combat Expertise + Trip (trips enemies into prone position), Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike (attack back when attacked), Mage Slayer (casters can't cast defensively near you) anything that allows you to either interrupt an enemy, or allows you to get a free attack when someone else does something.

Monks has a few weakening abilities like Stunning Fist and the others based on it, like Freezing the Lifeblood.

If you have the feats to space, you can go TWF. There's a feat that allows you to charge with both weapons (Two Weapon Pounce, I think), one to move and strike once with both weapons (Dual Strike), and one to hit with both weapons on an attack of opportunity (can't remember the name).

Finally, the Marshall (miniatures handbook) can make allies gain an extra move-like movement a few times a day.

Everything else I can think is with magic items or spells.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-19, 12:30 PM
The best way, I think, is with Attacks of Opportunity. Reach weapon + Combat Reflexes + High Dex. Add at your leisure: Stand Still (stops movement), Combat Expertise + Trip (trips enemies into prone position), Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike (attack back when attacked), Mage Slayer (casters can't cast defensively near you) anything that allows you to either interrupt an enemy, or allows you to get a free attack when someone else does something.

Monks has a few weakening abilities like Stunning Fist and the others based on it, like Freezing the Lifeblood.

If you have the feats to space, you can go TWF. There's a feat that allows you to charge with both weapons (Two Weapon Pounce, I think), one to move and strike once with both weapons (Dual Strike), and one to hit with both weapons on an attack of opportunity (can't remember the name).

Finally, the Marshall (miniatures handbook) can make allies gain an extra move-like movement a few times a day.

Everything else I can think is with magic items or spells.

I think most of those were covered, but thanks.

Is there any way to get PsyWar levels to stack with a bettec class than monk? Also, are there good PrCs that advance Manifesting almost all the way?

Lans
2011-01-19, 04:02 PM
Intimidate+The feat that makes it worse+never outnumbered+ swift demorilize or demorilizing rage

Boomerang Daze

Dire Flail Smash!

CycloneJoker
2011-01-19, 05:00 PM
Intimidate+The feat that makes it worse+never outnumbered+ swift demorilize or demorilizing rage

Boomerang Daze

Dire Flail Smash!

I was looking for more actions, not preventing enemies, although that does work, Zhentarim Fighter 9/Samurai X.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 06:35 PM
I think most of those were covered, but thanks.

Is there any way to get PsyWar levels to stack with a bettec class than monk? Also, are there good PrCs that advance Manifesting almost all the way?

Slayer PrC. Advances 9/10 manifesting and full BAB, with useful abilities that include immunity to mind-affecting. Requires either a dip in Ranger, or blowing a feat on Track and cross-class ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering).

It's pretty much the go-to for any psi-gish build.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-19, 07:47 PM
I think most of those were covered, but thanks.

Is there any way to get PsyWar levels to stack with a better class than monk? Also, are there good PrCs that advance Manifesting almost all the way?

Sanctified Mind is a 6-level class with full BAB and 5/6 manifesting with a couple useful features, but Slayer is usually a better choice.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-19, 10:13 PM
So Slayer's the best, huh? Okay. Also, can you use Mantle Substitution with Mantled Warrior?

Lans
2011-01-20, 09:02 PM
I was looking for more actions, not preventing enemies, although that does work, Zhentarim Fighter 9/Samurai X.
The swift demorilize by itself does lend to action economy.

Going off the Boomerang Daze, there is also Boomerang Richochet, and other richchet effects.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-20, 09:28 PM
The swift demorilize by itself does lend to action economy.

Going off the Boomerang Daze, there is also Boomerang Richochet, and other richchet effects.

Ricochet effects? Can you explain?

Coidzor
2011-01-21, 03:26 AM
Ricochet effects? Can you explain?

Well, there's the halfling skiprock which can go on to attack 1 or 2 others that are close to the target in exchange for a minus to the new attack rolls.

Boomerang Ricochet basically lets the weapon hit a nearby enemy after hitting the first enemy and then return, iirc.

This thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869126/Lets_Play_Catch)has some figures of possible increases through a combination of various feats. Something like 32 attacks that all daze in a round with 16 thrown weapons out of 8 attack actions.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2011-01-21, 11:44 AM
The "Official WotC Licensed Product" thing is on a huge amount of 3rd party material.Outside of the dragonlance setting, the 3 D2 books, dungeon and dragon mags and excluding the now defunct kingdoms of kalamar ... what else? Do you have a list? I'm pretty sure the 3.0 ravenloft wasn't or didn't have anything new in it.

randomhero00
2011-01-21, 11:56 AM
I like making homebrew. OP PM me if you'd like to see my try at a class like that. That type of class (mundane, fast) I've been meaning to homebrew anyway. Fact, maybe I will regardless...hmmm.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10207037#post10207037

Made one.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-21, 01:59 PM
Outside of the dragonlance setting, the 3 D2 books, dungeon and dragon mags and excluding the now defunct kingdoms of kalamar ... what else? Do you have a list? I'm pretty sure the 3.0 ravenloft wasn't or didn't have anything new in it.

That's all of the stuff that came to mind immediately when I wrote that, but even if there aren't any more... isn't that still a lot?