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View Full Version : Defeating Freedom of Movement



Rasman
2011-01-17, 10:45 PM
I saw the thread about Caster Killing and in thinking about it, it occurred to me that grappling is a good way to go about it. There's on problem, Freedom of Movement, especially in Ring Form. Are there any ways to squash Freedom of Movement when you AREN'T a caster?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-17, 11:14 PM
Dispel magic hoping to hit the ring?... anti.magic ray (spell compendium)... AMF? those are the only ways I can think of, and all of them involve casting something :S

sonofzeal
2011-01-17, 11:33 PM
Any caster-killer worth his salt should be aiming for an AMF, even just a UMD'd scroll if nothing else.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-17, 11:34 PM
Rings can be sundered. They can technically be filched with a DC 20 slight of hand check. You can even do it as a free action by taking a -20 on the check, so as long as you have +39 (or +30 and Skill Mastery from Rogue 10+) you can steal every small piece of gear off every opponent in reach and still get to full attack. They get a Spot check to notice you taking it, but you still end up with the item if you make the DC 20 check regardless of whether or not they see it happen.

Gavinfoxx
2011-01-17, 11:35 PM
Rings can be targeted with attacks. I think the sunder rules don't directly apply to rings... I think maybe you have to use something like Chain Lightning on their items or something?

Oh wait, you can't kill a high tier caster without being a caster...

Fitz10019
2011-01-18, 08:39 AM
FoM very specifically mentions magic impediments, and grappling. You need something non-magic, non-grappling. Try glue (but not Sovereign Glue, that's magical), or ordinary manicles. Just make sure you make it a bad for the wizard to pin you, because being choked out by a someone in their pajamas is really embarassing.

ericgrau
2011-01-18, 09:22 AM
My favorite way to deal with overly specific and expensive defenses is backup tactics. There are 50 other ways, grab a dozen. Anyone who blew a spell slot or magic item is 1 spell or 40,000 gp behind. In fact... freedom of movement is not a wizard spell. But for some reason the ring is popular here. Switch tactics and make him waste a ridiculous amount of money on nothing. Or grapple level 1-13 wizards who haven't yet got the ring, or level 10-12 and can't even afford other basic gear, even int at 10-11, and thus that much more vulnerable to alternate tactics.

Unless you're dealing with one of those pesky forum schrodinger wizards who have any item up to their WBL and any spell they have at least 1 slot for is not only in their spellbook but also prepared this morning and suddenly of an unbanned school. Even if you use both in the same build in the same fight, they switch on the next post. Then you're screwed.

Another option is that the ring is only CL 7th (e.g., for dispel), AC 18+dex, 2 hit points, hardness 10 (e.g., for sunder). You can sunder and grapple in the same full attack action.

Talya
2011-01-18, 10:09 AM
Sundering a ring would be difficult. Generally people wear gloves, which give the ring total concealment vs. the attacker, they could not even see it. (Nor do they know precisely where it is. You could be wearing them on either hand, either finger...and called shots are not in 3.5.)

Dreadn4ught
2011-01-18, 10:12 AM
Im sure you could convince the DM to let you try ripping the ring off his finger.

If not in ring form, use UMD and a scroll of Dispel Magic I guess?

Mordokai
2011-01-18, 10:14 AM
Sundering a ring would be difficult. Generally people wear gloves, which give the ring total concealment vs. the attacker, they could not even see it. (Nor do they know precisely where it is. You could be wearing them on either hand, either finger...and called shots are not in 3.5.)

Sunder the hand instead? :smallbiggrin:

I mean, there's still one in two chance of missing, but better than one in ten, right?

the clumsy bard
2011-01-18, 10:28 AM
antimagic torc from the underdark book.

Its a wondrous item that allows the user to use antimagic field once per day.

Fitz10019
2011-01-18, 11:12 AM
Im sure you could convince the DM to let you try ripping the ring off his finger.
But that sounds like a grapple check, which is an auto-win for the ring wearer.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-18, 11:34 AM
If the Ring of FoM is an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) then it would be an intelligent item. Intelligent items are treated as constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), and AMF "has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting." Therefore AMF is not always an automatic win against FoM.

Get +39 Slight of Hand, and without spending any actions filch their gloves, rings, amulets, bracelets, ioun stones, daggers, any keys they have, and the entire contents of their spell component pouch. Tie his shoelaces together while you're at it.

You could use cheesy tricks like Dust of Sneezing and Choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking), and get a Necklace of Adaptation so you're not affected by it.


FoM "enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement," and grappling and being underwater. The spell is not limited to those things it specifically mentions, it allows the target to move and attack normally despite all hindrances for the entire duration, it just points out that even magical hindrances are included in this all-encompassing statement. You could wade through the area of a Transmute Rock to Mud spell unhindered, or you could wade through naturally occurring nonmagical mud unhindered. Mundane effects which are not specifically mentioned are still thwarted by this spell.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 03:22 PM
Sunder the hand instead? :smallbiggrin:

I mean, there's still one in two chance of missing, but better than one in ten, right?
Let's just pop to the end of this chain of reasoning, and sunder the head. You really can't go wrong there. :smallwink:

(OK, that's enough nonsense.) The difficulty with attacking a ring of any sort is primarily in noticing it exists. If they're wearing gloves you don't have a chance. Even without gloves a ring is a Fine object, meaning the DC to Spot it is 20, and you get penalties at greater distances. Plus you've got the basic limitation of Spot to contend with:
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. Did you make your Spot check the very first time you had line of sight to the ring? If not, you must make those move action Spot retries or you can't ever see it.

Togo
2011-01-18, 04:03 PM
But that sounds like a grapple check, which is an auto-win for the ring wearer.

It's not, it's a disarm check. Casters are generally quite poor at them.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-18, 04:24 PM
However, to snatch a securely worn item like a ring (and no, there's no dispute that a ring isn't securely worn when it's used), you'd need to grapple and pin him down first... which leads to the problem of not being able to snatch the item in the first place.

TheWhisper
2011-01-18, 04:59 PM
Forcecage.

jumpet
2011-01-18, 05:08 PM
Play Pathfinder ... FoM only gives a +8 bonus to escape grapples

Togo
2011-01-18, 05:14 PM
However, to snatch a securely worn item like a ring (and no, there's no dispute that a ring isn't securely worn when it's used), you'd need to grapple and pin him down first... which leads to the problem of not being able to snatch the item in the first place.

Fair point. It wouldn't work with rings, braclets, and similar.

How about pinning someone without grapple checks? It's hard, but there are some obscure ways to do it. I found a feat in savage species that allowed you to body slam your way to a grapple that was opposed using not a grapple check, but a reflex save. Freedom of movement wouldn't protect against that, although it would allow them to escape on their turn.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-18, 05:31 PM
Unfortunately, you'd need to make a grapple check to pin the opponent once you're in a grapple, so it doesn't work either, unless the trick-maneuver you describe automatically lets you pin an opponent instead of only starting a grapple without a grapple check.

Rasman
2011-01-18, 07:55 PM
My favorite way to deal with overly specific and expensive defenses is backup tactics. There are 50 other ways, grab a dozen. Anyone who blew a spell slot or magic item is 1 spell or 40,000 gp behind. In fact... freedom of movement is not a wizard spell. But for some reason the ring is popular here. Switch tactics and make him waste a ridiculous amount of money on nothing. Or grapple level 1-13 wizards who haven't yet got the ring, or level 10-12 and can't even afford other basic gear, even int at 10-11, and thus that much more vulnerable to alternate tactics.

Unless you're dealing with one of those pesky forum schrodinger wizards who have any item up to their WBL and any spell they have at least 1 slot for is not only in their spellbook but also prepared this morning and suddenly of an unbanned school. Even if you use both in the same build in the same fight, they switch on the next post. Then you're screwed.

Another option is that the ring is only CL 7th (e.g., for dispel), AC 18+dex, 2 hit points, hardness 10 (e.g., for sunder). You can sunder and grapple in the same full attack action.

Sunder DOES seem to be the best option at this point IF he's wearing the ring...an interesting analysis


antimagic torc from the underdark book.

Its a wondrous item that allows the user to use antimagic field once per day.

both sneaky and awesome...I wouldn't want to give up a Neck Slot for what I'm thinking of, but...not a lot beats AMF...


But that sounds like a grapple check, which is an auto-win for the ring wearer.

ACTUALLY, in Pathfinder, there are rules for a SEVER Combat Maneuver, which would work, but for a grappler you TECHNICALLY still have to make a grapple check...but that's what that sword on his belt if for...

Roderick_BR
2011-01-18, 09:18 PM
Sunder the hand instead? :smallbiggrin:

I mean, there's still one in two chance of missing, but better than one in ten, right?
Unless he wears it in a toe, just to mess with you :p

Seriously, this is one of the things I dislike in D&D: Absolute powers. You cast spell X, and now you absolutely immune to effect Y. No, the enemy having a Strength of 300, or a caster level of 400, doesn't matter. Spell X is final on you not being affected at all. Period.

Rasman
2011-01-19, 12:46 AM
Unless he wears it in a toe, just to mess with you :p

Seriously, this is one of the things I dislike in D&D: Absolute powers. You cast spell X, and now you absolutely immune to effect Y. No, the enemy having a Strength of 300, or a caster level of 400, doesn't matter. Spell X is final on you not being affected at all. Period.

TECHNICALLY if you take the feat "Extra Rings" you COULD do that...not a bad idea...yes...goooooooood...


Play Pathfinder ... FoM only gives a +8 bonus to escape grapples

er...no it doesn't...it works JUST like 3.5 FoM...

I think you're thinking of Liberating Command cast as a 4th level Caster.

Radar
2011-01-19, 11:33 AM
If the Ring of FoM is an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) then it would be an intelligent item. Intelligent items are treated as constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), and AMF "has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting." Therefore AMF is not always an automatic win against FoM.
No need to go that far: lead-lined gloves worn on top of your rings will brake the Line of Effect anyway and AMF is an emanation. It's cheese, but prevents your rings from being suppressed.

Apart from that: the most important problem is actually hiting the wizard. All of proposed ideas require you to get close to the wizard and connect an attack (either for regular beheading, Disarm, Sunder or Grapple) or a skill check (Sleight of Hand). The last one is by far the most likely to succeed, if used as a free action, yet it might be interrupted by Abrupt Jaut or Celerity anyway. It still can't beat Mirror Image or Invisibility, unless you have some Goggles of True Sight (as opposed to regular, useless ones (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GogglesDoNothing)), which will only work in a 20 ft. area.

Electrohydra
2011-01-19, 01:37 PM
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

Did you make your Spot check the very first time you had line of sight to the ring? If not, you must make those move action Spot retries or you can't ever see it.

Quick reconnoiter from Complete adventurer can bypass that limitation by letting you make an active spot check each round as a free action (among other things).

Also with a high spot check you could probably see the ring-shaped bump under the glove.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-19, 02:21 PM
Quick reconnoiter from Complete adventurer can bypass that limitation by letting you make an active spot check each round as a free action (among other things).
That's an excellent feat.

Also with a high spot check you could probably see the ring-shaped bump under the glove.
OK, so there are one or more lumps under the gloves. If these are actually chain gauntlets as part of a set of armor you're not allowed to sunder them, meaning you can't get line of effect to the rings. If they're gloves rather than armor you would need to try to sunder each one individually.
Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. So that's an attack (provoking an AoO) against AC (18 + DEX mod) each Fine size glove. If those are magic gloves you'll be destroying treasure.

One trick I like to use on important magic items is to pay an NPC spellcaster for Hardening to boost hardness by +10. As magic gloves are enhanced as a set, that's just one casting to harden both of them. Most attackers aren't going to think to Power Attack a glove, and increased hardness could make it take two hits to sunder. (The counterpart to the single casting to harden both gloves is that the attacker only has to sunder one of them to render the set magically useless. Yet a magically useless glove still blocks line of effect to rings underneath.)

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-19, 04:28 PM
Just hit the mage with a disjunction or two.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-19, 04:34 PM
Just hit the mage with a disjunction or two.
My (mostly non-spellcaster) characters love to carry around cursed minor artifacts just to spoil the whole life of those who cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction. :smallbiggrin:

Togo
2011-01-20, 04:45 PM
Unless he wears it in a toe, just to mess with you :p

Seriously, this is one of the things I dislike in D&D: Absolute powers. You cast spell X, and now you absolutely immune to effect Y. No, the enemy having a Strength of 300, or a caster level of 400, doesn't matter. Spell X is final on you not being affected at all. Period.

There are some absolute grapple powers. The ironmaw is the one I came across recently. If you're hit, you make a reflex save, if you fail the save, you're grappled. No grapple check to resist, so FoM is irrelevent until the target's own turn, whereupon he still needs to spend a standard action to break free.

Rasman
2011-01-21, 07:59 AM
There are some absolute grapple powers. The ironmaw is the one I came across recently. If you're hit, you make a reflex save, if you fail the save, you're grappled. No grapple check to resist, so FoM is irrelevent until the target's own turn, whereupon he still needs to spend a standard action to break free.

can't say I'm familiar with Ironmaw, where's that from and what is it specifically?

panaikhan
2011-01-24, 08:10 AM
I spotted this thread, and hoped some kind person would help me with a related issue.

In the campaign I am GMing, the VoP Monk in the party will gain the ability Freedom of Movement on his next level.
I'm not sure if it specifies the type of ability (Ex, Su, etc etc) but I do know it will start getting even more silly than it already is.
Sinse it's an ability, not an item, is there a way around it?

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 08:34 AM
It will be an extraordinarily ability (Ex), so anti-magic stuff won't work.

Now, you could make the monk lose this ability granted by exalted feats by somehow breaking the vow of poverty and losing any exalted benefit, but that's of course the badwrongandjustassinine-way that no gm should really do.

Forcecages and other terrain-enclosing stuff will prevent the monk's use of his freedom of movement-ability.

Then again, it is a monk, a weak class, and has to uphold several virtues so that he or she doesn't lose the exalted feat benefits, so I'd change the scenario/encounter to accomodate and to play up to the strength of the monk, instead of somehow fighting it.

panaikhan
2011-01-24, 08:52 AM
it is a monk, a weak class

It's a Dragon Disciple monk, with other exalted feats, in a dungeon populated by mostly evil creatures. Every time he lands a blow, it's 4 dice damage and dexterity tax.
Along with the whirling dervish (thri-kreen multiattack fighter), they are the front line.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-24, 09:11 AM
You mean as in monk with dragon disciple prestige class? Because at level 14, when an exalted character will receive Freedom of Movement from the exalted feat, that damage output is nothing that problematic that a standard two-handed greatsword fighter couldn't achieve at well without having to resort to the ever-popular shocktrooper-leap-attack-feat combo. And fighter is an equally bad class.

Anyway, there is nothing to counter freedom of movement except by moving wall traps and forcefields. However, it'll still make the monk happy if some monsters and enemies assume that they can grapple or somehow entangle the monk and waste one action in trying to catch the monk, before they turn their face towards an "Oh snap"-expression...

Douglas
2011-01-24, 09:46 AM
It will be an extraordinarily ability (Ex), so anti-magic stuff won't work.
As I recall, exalted feats in general are all supernatural. Even if the ability itself is Extraordinary, I think it would still go away in an AMF because its source is suppressed.

lesser_minion
2011-01-24, 09:49 AM
My favorite way to deal with overly specific and expensive defenses is backup tactics. There are 50 other ways, grab a dozen. Anyone who blew a spell slot or magic item is 1 spell or 40,000 gp behind. In fact... freedom of movement is not a wizard spell. But for some reason the ring is popular here.

As far as I'm aware, you're usually fighting against Heart of Water, which lets you gain a freedom of movement effect at any time as a swift action (doing so discharges the spell at the end of the freedom of movement effect). It's 3rd level, and you can get a wand for 11,250 gp, or an eternal wand for 10,900 gp. I think most people take the rest of the suite as well, for the critical hit immunity.