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Gamer Girl
2011-01-18, 01:35 AM
I'm a Old School D&D gamer. I love a good puzzle and a good mystery. Part of the fun of role-playing and D&D in general is figuring things out. And Old School D&D was full of puzzles and mysteries that the player had to figure out.

So over the weekend, I was running a open game(3.5E) at the Gamer Stop. It was simple enough...'werewolves attacking the local farmers'. The characters start having no idea what was behind the attacks and have to investigate. all the classic clues were there: 'human foot prints in the mud..that suddenly stop and wolf prints continue from that spot' for example.

I anticipated a fun adventure that would take the characters all around the town, to various encounters, until the slowly put the clues together and 'solved the puzzle and got to the big bad werewolf lord.

This was not what the players had in mind, however. About a whole 20 minutes into the game, once they saw the 'mysterious death plot', I got this:We investigate the town for a couple hours. What is the DC for us to solve the mystery?

It was like they were saying..''well we don't want to play, just tell us the answer and we will go home''. They did want to play, and had the idea that the character with the INT 18 should just automatically figure everything out in seconds.

And this has come up in games before. Once another group was in the Fey Fortress and could not open the Green Door. They had been given the Tree Key early in the adventure, yet failed to figure out that it was the key to the green door..even after each character looked through their equipment for something that could help. At this point the wizard said 'I roll an intelligence check to figure out how to open the door'.

So this so common in modern games? Are modern players just lazy? Is this just another symptom of video game players(where they just grab the cheat book to figure out how to beat the quest)?

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-18, 01:42 AM
Assuming they aren't just too stupid to solve the problems (which is unlikely with the quite obvious werewolf-thing), it's probably just laziness. Many people use "cheats" as soon as they can't figure it out by themselves, as you can (kind-of) see from all these posts on the forums, asking for help mid-battle.

Personally, I only use walkthroughs in video games when I'm stuck in some stupid spot (might even be a glitch) and want to continue with the fun game.

Kurald Galain
2011-01-18, 02:02 AM
It's a big gray area.

On the one hand, expecting to solve a puzzle with a skill check is pretty lame. On the other hand, some DMs put really stupid puzzles in their campaign that reasonably your characters should be able to figure out.

For example, if a puzzle hinges on remembering which color of dragon uses which element type of breath weapon (and yes, I've seen locked safes with this kind of puzzle) then I think it's not unreasonable for me to state that myself, I don't know that (because I don't memorize monster manuals), but my character with high int and knowledge skills probably does.

Conversely, as a DM I tend to disallow diplomacy checks (or at least give them substantial penalties) if the player just states "I want to make a diplomacy check" rather than attempting an in-character speech.

So yeah, gray area. Getting a clue with a skill check should be possible; getting the full answer, probably not. And DMs shouldn't use the kind of "gotcha" puzzles that are impossible to figure out unless you already know the answer.

Lady Moreta
2011-01-18, 02:08 AM
It can also happen when people are playing a character who has a much higher score in a stat than they themselves do. For instance, one of my characters has a 16 INT, now if I was to stat myself out, I am just not that smart. In one instance, we were stumped by a problem (I can't remember the specifics any more). After discussing it amongst ourselves and not being able to come up with anything, I commented that my character was smarter than me anyway and surely she could have come up with something. The DM allowed me to make an INT check, which I passed and he gave us an extra clue that helped us figure it out. I should note, he didn't tell us the answer, or simply give it to us. He gave us an extra hint that was all we needed, we did the rest ourselves.

Similar to people just wanting to role the dice regarding 'talking' encounters rather than roleplaying it. My same character as above has an CHA score in the mid 20s (she's a bard). Being honest, my CHA would probably be - around a 10. Added to that, I don't think well on my feet, so in game situations when everyone wants the 'talky elf' to do her thing, I really struggle. I will always give it a go, but eventually I will stress myself out to the point that I just want to roll the damn die already - at which point the DM will let me - and then facepalm, because her diplomacy is 27 and she's pretty much unstoppable. I could never roleplay a 27 diplomacy though, I'm just not that good an actor. The DM realises this and makes allowances.

Not saying it doesn't suck though, if people don't make any effort at all. I can say in this game that all of us make an effor to roleplay and problem solve - just that our DM is kind and gracious when we get stuck.

Zaq
2011-01-18, 02:10 AM
It's possible that the players just weren't used to a game where the GM 1) puts in time to actually make puzzles, 2) makes puzzles that are actually fun (I've suffered through quite a few boring and headdesky puzzles), and 3) trusts the players enough to actually let them noodle through them. It's regrettable to need to tell your players "no, you guys can actually try to figure this out," but sometimes you have to give them that nudge to let them know that they're allowed to even try.

Oh, and some players (and/or GMs) make "metagaming" out to be this huge ogre that will eat you if you so much as do one thing that isn't directly specified in the rules. It's possible that they had been inculcated with that kind of mindset.

. . . Of course, it's also possible that they're just lazy and uncommitted, but let's at least try to be charitable first before rushing to the worst conclusion possible.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-18, 02:22 AM
Best puzzles often turn out to be ones I never had a planned solution to - so I can't give the players "one hint to solve it all". This often leads to them McGuyvering some highly improbable solution, which always makes me grin.

Then again, I use systems which discourage "I roll to do X" pretty strongly - either there's no check you could even make, or describing the methods you use to make the check are mandatory by the rules; you don't even get to make a check if you have no idea what you're going after.

Warlawk
2011-01-18, 02:33 AM
What you've listed just sounds like sheer laziness.

As a DM my answer to that situation would be if they make the check, bring them to the next clue. They don't solve the mystery simply on a check, but it does take them to their next big important bit of information.

To be honest though, it sounds like it might have been a situation where the DM and players don't mesh. You want a RP mystery and investigation game and they wanted some hack and slash.

Nothing wrong with either, just gotta be sure it's clear which one people are wanting. Heck, our game does both. One session might be a bloodbath and then the next is purely Rp with nothing but a few rolls for bluff/sense motive/diplomacy etc. This literally describes our past two sessions.

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 02:50 AM
Aw, that sucks. I suppose it could've just been a matter of expectations of the game, though?
I don't think I've ever had this problem before. 'course, even if they tried it, I'd probably go with the "hint" angle... In your case, I would've said "what specifically do you want to investigate? How? Who will you talk to?" etc. And, for example, if they said "the footprints", and they got a big enough Intelligence check (though I'd possibly allow any Knowledges they think might be relevant), I'd list off a whole bunch of things off the top of my head that it could be (Druid, anyone with access to Polymorph Self or similar, a werewolf, a wolfwere, other stuff... Oh, and they'd have to do a check to identify the footprints as wolf, too) and let them sort it out.
I've gotten lucky, though, in that my players are always keen to solve problems, and in the past I've had a disproportionate number of Chaotic high-Int low-Wis characters - that is, they know better, but they don't care and dammit the button is red and glowing!
(they also tend to have high Bluff and low Sense Motive. And like to use it on each other)

Vitruviansquid
2011-01-18, 03:52 AM
I personally don't find it fun at all to be given puzzles to solve at the table, and here's why.

1. On many occasions, the DM isn't the greatest writer of puzzles. Puzzles often turn out to be unsolvably hard, making the game come to a screeching halt, or so easy that there doesn't seem to be a reason to have been given the puzzle in the first place.

2. We are no longer playing (RPG) when you give us a puzzle, we are playing the puzzle. I like solving puzzles and I like playing RPG's, but I come to the table to roll dice and play roles, not to solve puzzles.

3. My biggest problem with puzzles is that each of them, on some level, requires meta-gaming. Puzzles are defined by having the players use their own intelligence to do something with in-game ramifications, which can be problematic when a player knows the solution, but doubts their stupid character would, or when a player doesn't know the solution, but thinks it would be silly that his super wise and super intelligent character doesn't.

Now I'm not saying players can't be lazy and stupid (though it's certainly unfair to assume all modern gamers or all video gamers are), and declaring "we investigate the village for a couple of hours" is definitely on the lazy side, but remember that being DM means you have to look to the players' enjoyment as well as your own. If your players dislike puzzles, why force it on them?

Shpadoinkle
2011-01-18, 04:53 AM
Yeah... lots of people don't like puzzles. It may be due to laziness and a weird sense of entitlement, but maybe they just didn't gave a damn about a murder of someone they'd never met and didn't care about. When somebody mentions playing D&D, I tend to think of stuff more along the lines of Conan (the barbarian, not O'brien) than CSI. Lots of people find that kind of stuff boring and would prefer to skip it if they can.

Warlawk
2011-01-18, 05:00 AM
I personally don't find it fun at all to be given puzzles to solve at the table, and here's why.

1. On many occasions, the DM isn't the greatest writer of puzzles. Puzzles often turn out to be unsolvably hard, making the game come to a screeching halt, or so easy that there doesn't seem to be a reason to have been given the puzzle in the first place.

2. We are no longer playing (RPG) when you give us a puzzle, we are playing the puzzle. I like solving puzzles and I like playing RPG's, but I come to the table to roll dice and play roles, not to solve puzzles.

3. My biggest problem with puzzles is that each of them, on some level, requires meta-gaming. Puzzles are defined by having the players use their own intelligence to do something with in-game ramifications, which can be problematic when a player knows the solution, but doubts their stupid character would, or when a player doesn't know the solution, but thinks it would be silly that his super wise and super intelligent character doesn't.

Now I'm not saying players can't be lazy and stupid (though it's certainly unfair to assume all modern gamers or all video gamers are), and declaring "we investigate the village for a couple of hours" is definitely on the lazy side, but remember that being DM means you have to look to the players' enjoyment as well as your own. If your players dislike puzzles, why force it on them?

I would agree in the sense of riddle type puzzles. I do not like them, I do not want them at the table, I just think they're terrible. You made some good points in this post, but the key part for me is that many riddle type puzzles simply make little sense to anyone other than the person who came up with it. Everyone thinks and reasons differently and has different experiences and mindset that will dictate a different approach.

Now, a puzzle in the sense of the OP in discovering that there is a werewolf in town... it's classic and basic. Doesn't really fall into this problem IMO.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-18, 05:09 AM
1. On many occasions, the DM isn't the greatest writer of puzzles. Puzzles often turn out to be unsolvably hard, making the game come to a screeching halt, or so easy that there doesn't seem to be a reason to have been given the puzzle in the first place.

This phenomenom is why I think the GM should never put an obstacle on the players' way an assume they will succeed. Failure should be an option. Nor should he assume the players will fail, either; success, no matter how unlikely, should be an option too. I think good puzzle quests require some mental flexibility from the GM as well as players to minimize this problem.

As a GM, it boils down to not putting all your eggs in the same basket, so to speak. The only way to keep players on a set path is to give them a map and spell their goal out to them; if you're unwilling to do that, you have to accept the possibility that they get lost in the woods, and prepare accordingly.


2. We are no longer playing (RPG) when you give us a puzzle, we are playing the puzzle. I like solving puzzles and I like playing RPG's, but I come to the table to roll dice and play roles, not to solve puzzles.

I disagree, as it depends on the nature and details of the puzzle; for example, crime investigation plots leave plenty leeway for roleplaying, as the characters' attitudes and roles will affect what information they might tell and to whom. However, this wraps back at the previous point - players should have the option to refuse a solution to the puzzle, if it would run against the nature of their character.


3. My biggest problem with puzzles is that each of them, on some level, requires meta-gaming. Puzzles are defined by having the players use their own intelligence to do something with in-game ramifications, which can be problematic when a player knows the solution, but doubts their stupid character would, or when a player doesn't know the solution, but thinks it would be silly that his super wise and super intelligent character doesn't.

This is an annoying problem, but it's good to remember such concerns always exist in a roleplaying game. It's even reinforced by some rulesets which require a character to be "something special" by default. D&D is one of the worst offenders, with having rules for nearly every little thing.

One solution is for the player to not pick a character so disconnected of himself, just like an actor would turn down a role that's too hard; alternatively, it might be a place for the player to do research or maybe hint another player. A GM can of course lend a hand too; just like the director might advice an unsure actor to play a part in the movie, a GM can plan for such situations and, for instance, make post-it clue stickers for the "smart guy".

I should also note that there are systems which alleviate the problem by, somewhat ironically, explicitly stating that it's player smarts, not character smarts, used to deal with puzzles. How does this help, you might ask. It helps because the character is not held to some elusive standard abstractly marked down on their sheet; it's the game's way of saying "don't worry about it and just play your character to best extent you can". It links back to the first line of the previous paragraph: players should not paint themselves to a corner by insisting too much of their characters or themselves.

kamikasei
2011-01-18, 05:17 AM
Now, a puzzle in the sense of the OP in discovering that there is a werewolf in town... it's classic and basic. Doesn't really fall into this problem IMO.
Yeah. From the thread title, I expected the sort of "the wizard's door will only open if you solve the Towers of Hanoi!" puzzles to which my general response is "DM, please sit on this trebuchet - yes, just there - and douse yourself in oil, while I light the match and use you to bombard the Bioware head offices". I wouldn't even use the word "puzzle" for what the OP describes.

Kurald has a good point though: it is tricky to strike a good balance. You don't want the mystery to be glaringly obvious so that the NPCs look like idiots for not having been able to figure it out. On the other hand, you don't want there to be one and only one chain of reasoning that the players must duplicate in order to reach the conclusions that to you when you were writing up the scenario seemed obvious. Your best bet is probably to have several different clues each of which might be ambiguous or unclear on its own but which add up to a fair degree of certainty. Make sure that knowledge checks, gather information and the like can uncover further clues or useful hints without outright solving the whole conundrum with a single roll. This helps mitigate the problem of IC vs OOC knowledge.

Then, you just want to make sure the players know you're going to have mysteries you expect them to use their own heads to figure out, and that they're on board for that. It's not just laziness but wariness that might make players reluctant to engage in this kind of gameplay. It's pretty annoying to be presented with a scenario, make a perfectly sensible inference as to what's going on, and be told that no, actually the answer is something else entirely, something considerably less likely but which the DM, knowing the answer, saw as obvious while overlooking other, more plausible interpretations.

It sounds like you're running ad hoc games rather than fixed groups of friends, so it might be trickier to set expectations, but I'd say it's still important.

I'm curious about the nature of the "puzzles" you describe. The werewolf one sounds pretty straightforward, but what about the key/door one? Who gave them the key? Why did that person have it? Why weren't they told then what it was for? That does sound a lot like the sort of puzzle that can be highly annoying in a game.

Xondoure
2011-01-18, 05:41 AM
Riddle me this. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=680)

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 05:53 AM
I should also note that there are systems which alleviate the problem by, somewhat ironically, explicitly stating that it's player smarts, not character smarts, used to deal with puzzles. How does this help, you might ask. It helps because the character is not held to some elusive standard abstractly marked down on their sheet; it's the game's way of saying "don't worry about it and just play your character to best extent you can". It links back to the first line of the previous paragraph: players should not paint themselves to a corner by insisting too much of their characters or themselves.There's other options, too. For example, if the player of a very low-Int character figures out something that their character probably wouldn't, then you could make it a "flash of brilliance" situation, where the character just happens to have a momentary and unique insight ("duuuuuuh... the sum of the square is three quarters of pi. Duh, I like ice cream :B"), or maybe they just happen to stumble across the answer by accident ("Ooo, levers!" *fiddle fiddle fiddle* "Ooo, a door!"), and so on.
Alternatively, the DM might allow the players to discuss solutions and so-on, and then distribute actions and information - as determined by all the players out-of-character - amongst the characters as would make sense in-game.

I like puzzles, at least as a change of pace *shrug* Some of my most successful games have been heavy on puzzles of various kinds.

Emmerask
2011-01-18, 05:56 AM
I like puzzles, at least as a change of pace *shrug* Some of my most successful games have been heavy on puzzles of various kinds.

Yep, puzzles are awesome, I like them as a player and as dm too (finally I can eat my pizza :smallbiggrin:)

Grogmir
2011-01-18, 05:59 AM
"We investigate the town for a couple hours. What is the DC for us to solve the mystery?"

Thats pretty poor and I would be deflated if my group came out with that. However I wouldn't have given the answer; my reply would be 'A streetwise check will let you know a clues and underlying plot'

In general more games have a few Puzzles, depending on what you mean.

There are RP 'puzzles': The man one is called the plot. My players are trying to puzzle out what the BBEG is up too. I'm going to drop hints to try and lead them along.

The current situation can be a puzzle: Either enviroment, Traps, Personnel or other, Most encounters need an element of this before and during them. Getting the upperhand on ones enemies is always worth it.

Both of these can be covered by Skill Challenges and fit well into the DnD system - 'eck its the point of playing for our group.

More direct 'traditional' puzzles are however are much less likely.

I'm actually running the players through a 'dungeon crawl' where former mighty wizards tried to keep something hidden. Puzzles galore here.

1) To cross a 'magical swamp' I gave each player a maze, told them they could 'jump across' lines with a Athletics / Acrobatics check and then said 1 sec IRL is 1 minute in game. go. That was a little fun change of pace.

2) A player missed a session and went into a 'mysterious trance', the week after I gave him a cryptogram of the 'message' he received. Kept him quiet for a while.

3) Using the 'laser puzzle' encoutner, I amended it to make the room full of moveable mirrors, players had to turn. This lead to the group scribbling over the battlemat - very fun.

4) The 'Laser' was a beam of sunlight - once solved it reveal ANOTHER puzzle.
This one I stole from the recent game Machinerium. Where you have 3 disks on one side, 1 in the middle and 3 on the other. Moving only 1 square or jumping you have to get all to one side and all to the other.

5) To get to this room in the first place there was a riddle.

turn my head and you may go where you want.
I turn it again, you will stay till you rot.
I have no face, but I live or die
by my crooked teeth, Who am I?

A key

Together none of these were original. but none of them took up to much time and all are in flavour for the dungeon.

Puzzles to me are an important part of my DM toolkit. But as ever they are more memorable if you tweek them to be inspired and inspire your world.

Happy Rollin'

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 05:59 AM
One of my favourites was simply "this guy wants to jump ship (for noble reasons) at the next island. You gonna help him?" I did let them waffle on about it over-long, but their solution was brilliant...

edit: 1 second IRL = 1 minute in-game? You sure that's right? :smalleek:

Chaos rising
2011-01-18, 06:00 AM
If I have a situation like this I generally put a lot of bonus items that a character gets if they go through the quest and solve the puzzle. For example, the players could just roll a wisdom/ intelligence check (and yes I would make them do both to succeed) and find out that the butler did it, or they could solve the puzzle by interacting with the other characters and solve some of the other characters problems and thus obtaining say... a few healing potions a weapon upgrade and a staff of lightning. Then I sick a monster on them that would be viciously hard for them to defeat if they didn't get the bonus items from the puzzle. (This is very easy for me to do since I homebrew lots of stuff to throw off the munchkins).

kamikasei
2011-01-18, 06:07 AM
One of my favourites was simply "this guy wants to jump ship (for noble reasons) at the next island. You gonna help him?" I did let them waffle on about it over-long, but their solution was brilliant...
I don't get how that's a puzzle. That seems like it'd just be a decision.

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 06:08 AM
Well, alright. After that there was then "how do you help him?"

Grogmir
2011-01-18, 06:11 AM
Kurald has a good point though: it is tricky to strike a good balance. You don't want the mystery to be glaringly obvious so that the NPCs look like idiots for not having been able to figure it out. On the other hand, you don't want there to be one and only one chain of reasoning that the players must duplicate in order to reach the conclusions that to you when you were writing up the scenario seemed obvious. Your best bet is probably to have several different clues each of which might be ambiguous or unclear on its own but which add up to a fair degree of certainty

Defo this. I always use The Rule of Three:

Always plan three clues for each 'reveal'. Seriously it really works. I use it for everything. Plot points, Trap noticing. Everything i wont the PCs to notice gets three 'hints'.

Earthwalker
2011-01-18, 06:15 AM
Meanwhile in Crazy world.
My character is a refluffed bard played as a former military leader. He has excelent skills in
Knowledge (military tactics)
Perform (Shout orders)
All other knownledge skills to identify foes.
I now get through fights much quicker as before initatives are rolled I just roll a knowledge to find out about my opponents, then a knowledge tactics and perform orders. If I beat the encounter DC the GM awards us our loot and xp. Saves so much time. This works really well because as a player I have poor tactical skills but my character is much better at it.
We are now leaving Crazy world.


We investigate the town for a couple hours. What is the DC for us to solve the mystery?

This made me cry inside a little.

It is of course all about te group dynamic and the expection of the players. As some people have said they don’t like puzzles and so want a easy way to avoid them or perhaps their characters are better at puzzles then they are so know that its silly they as players have to solve things as their character could work it all out in a snap.
I myself would recommend talking to the players before hand about the game and make sure you are all wanting the same thing out of it.
Again what you are calling a puzzle I think is a perfect example of how puzzles should be handled. Where character skills can get the player more information. Where its about the character finding out more and then the player being able to make the right choices to solve thing. Not about giving just the players something to solve without involvement of the characters.

Grogmir
2011-01-18, 06:32 AM
edit: 1 second IRL = 1 minute in-game? You sure that's right? :smalleek:

Yep - took about 2 - 4 minutes IRL. Which equated to 2 - 4 hours in game. For every 'hour' they spent I made them do a Endurance check. Failure lost them a HS. The harsh time frame is what made it work imo. They all tried to zoom through it quickly rather than just slowly plod plod plod.

BTW - what was there solution?

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 06:41 AM
Ah, so IRL it was "I leap here, then here, then here then here", while in-game it was ""hrm... I think I'll go... this way." *runs up* *jumps* *gains balance*" that sorta thing?
I find that usually it's the other way round...

The solution was thusly:
Druid casts Control Weather to bring on a storm.
Illusionist casts Greater Image (or something like that) to make a second sailor at the same time as the ?Rogue uses a wand of invisibility to turn him invisible? (I think it was something like that)
Druid casts Call Lightning, targets illusion-sailor.
Illusionist has illusion-sailor "explode" into "ashes".
Rogue is dramatic.
Knight is sensible and up-standing citizen and plays it straight.
Captain believes the sailor has died, leaving no trace, in a freak accident.
Real sailor lays low until the ship leaves, and makes his way home.

I had some resources available to them, like people who would help and a cave to hide out in, but it turns out they didn't need anything...

Grogmir
2011-01-18, 06:56 AM
Nice Solution and all on their own resources. Bet you players felt good after that.

My maze was just a little distraction TBH. It was a pre planned diversion away from RPing and Table Top play.

I printed out the same maze for each player and let em loose. They were focused on the maze while I described the magic infusing the mind and weakening their body.

TBH Only 1 player tried to delibratly jump a line. She succeded so didn't fall in. But then promotly realised she had jump the wrong one!

Most just tried to do it normally.

Warlawk
2011-01-18, 07:04 AM
[I]
turn my head and you may go where you want.
I turn it again, you will stay till you rot.
I have no face, but I live or die
by my crooked teeth, Who am I?

A key



A key is an instrument that is used to operate a lock. A typical key consists of two parts: the blade, which slides into the keyway of the lock and distinguishes between different keys, and the bow, which is left protruding so that torque can be applied by the user.

A key doesn't have a head. The "live or die" thing doesn't make any sense to me. This is a fine example of how people think differently. Without a lot of context pointing at that solution, I probably never would have got it. Partly because I know the technical terms for the parts of the key I guess, and know that it doesn't have a "head".

Not saying it's a bad riddle I guess, just pointing out that your experience and associations differ from my own, and I never could have figured out what you probably consider a very simple riddle.

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 07:32 AM
My maze was just a little distraction TBH. It was a pre planned diversion away from RPing and Table Top play.

I printed out the same maze for each player and let em loose. They were focused on the maze while I described the magic infusing the mind and weakening their body.

TBH Only 1 player tried to delibratly jump a line. She succeded so didn't fall in. But then promotly realised she had jump the wrong one!

Most just tried to do it normally.What could have happened if they fell in?

I had a doors-only-go-one-way maze not long ago. It went pretty well - although the Warlock's weakness aura thingy took out every single surprise swarm I had in there. Made my flying pirahna a real anticlimax... But hey, at least the Sorcerer got a shimmerling familiar out of it.

Grogmir
2011-01-18, 07:43 AM
Interesting analysis Warlawk,
I can see why people don't like em. This was only my Second riddle in 6 months of playing. At used well i think can add to the game. I do see how they can be deadends - and you've got to plan for when the guys Don't get it.

Serpentine: Just HS losses this time, I was just trying to quickly 'tax' em before battles and places to come.

If it had been a less adstract situation then I would follow up more. In this case though it was a quick (took 10 minutes in all) way to tax the pcs and players, give a little change of pace and break up the monotony of overland travel. there's only so manys ways I can SkllC it!

Happy rollin all.

P.s - one way door, interesting. Might steal that one. But did they start keeping each door open? Or looking through before going through? how did it work out?

In my last game I had the players attacked by Carrion Crawlers and lots of rat swarms that spawned larger 'minion' rates. The whole encounter they were fried straight away as the Dragonborn Sorc kept a daily power sustained by the entrance. still gotta give the PCs the win some times!

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 08:04 AM
P.s - one way door, interesting. Might steal that one.I've got the map for it around somewhere. It's the Temple of the Trickster God if you wanna find it.

But did they start keeping each door open?I thought they would, but oddly enough no, they didn't. But after he knocked out the shimmerling swarm, the Warlock put them all in his bag and bamfed waaaaaay back to where they fell in and let them go. Made the whole thing seem less... threatening.

Or looking through before going through?That they did do. Listened, too. Ended up just sending the Warlock in first...
I really need some advice on dealing with an impossible-to-hit Warlock :smallsigh:

how did it work out?All in all, well, I think. The whole thing was pretty fun. I screwed up some bits, but I think I planned well enough that it went well.

Grogmir
2011-01-18, 08:15 AM
Thanks bud. I'll have to look it up. And work out a way to get them into that situation. But good to have these in the bag so to speak.

Another 'puzzle' i'm working was a little murder mystery at the a party for the local lord. Each guest has a little snippet of information that on its own doesn't give the game away.

its basically a logic grid, just need to put in the final touches. The easiest way with these is to take a completed one and reskin.
A couple of the guest will have tasks to complete IF they need there clue. I'm hoping the team run into this one.

- - -

In general - to cut stop my continuous replying to this trhead. I like puzzles, both the Plotline type and the traditional puzzle. It can break the flow of the game, but thats not always a bad thing for me, and used sparingly they can really add another dimension to a session.

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 08:19 AM
Another 'puzzle' i'm working was a little murder mystery at the a party for the local lord. Each guest has a little snippet of information that on its own doesn't give the game away.Do you know about Host a Murder?

Earthwalker
2011-01-18, 08:57 AM
Do you know about Host a Murder?

Please continue I am all ears. (which considering the lack of protection from sonic damage in DnD is quiet a big flaw.)

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 09:09 AM
You don't know about How to Host a Murder? You should check it out. What happens is... Okay, from the start. A person, the Host, buys a Host a Murder set. They make a dinner (the game alternates with the courses) for a bunch of people, the Guests. They each get assigned a character. Each person starts with some information about their character, and the host tells them the scenario: usually, the in-game host of the dinner has been horribly murdered, and everyone has a motive. At the start of each round, everyone gets given clues - incriminating evidence against themselves, and on other characters. You try to make everyone else look guilty while keeping your dirty little secrets, secret. At the end, you all take it in turns to accuse someone of the murder, and say what happened. Then, the solution is revealed...
Anyway, you might like to grab one second hand, and base your murder mystery party on it. Sounds like it could at least be a good guide.

(I've been a faker clairvoyant, a black widow, and... something else I forget)

some guy
2011-01-18, 10:01 AM
3. My biggest problem with puzzles is that each of them, on some level, requires meta-gaming. Puzzles are defined by having the players use their own intelligence to do something with in-game ramifications, which can be problematic when a player knows the solution, but doubts their stupid character would, or when a player doesn't know the solution, but thinks it would be silly that his super wise and super intelligent character doesn't.


I always have my players just use their own knowledge on the puzzle. Then in-game the player of the most intelligent pc can use the player-knowledge of the players of the less intelligent pc's. Everyone can contribute that way, while the characters don't seem any dumber/smarter.



You don't know about How to Host a Murder? You should check it out. What happens is... Okay, from the start. A person, the Host, buys a Host a Murder set.

Wait a minute! They sell these things? Man, I have always been making those myself.

graeylin
2011-01-18, 10:05 AM
It can also happen when people are playing a character who has a much higher score in a stat than they themselves do. For instance, one of my characters has a 16 INT, now if I was to stat myself out, I am just not that smart. In one instance, we were stumped by a problem (I can't remember the specifics any more). After discussing it amongst ourselves and not being able to come up with anything, I commented that my character was smarter than me anyway and surely she could have come up with something. The DM allowed me to make an INT check, which I passed and he gave us an extra clue that helped us figure it out. I should note, he didn't tell us the answer, or simply give it to us. He gave us an extra hint that was all we needed, we did the rest ourselves.

Similar to people just wanting to role the dice regarding 'talking' encounters rather than roleplaying it. My same character as above has an CHA score in the mid 20s (she's a bard). Being honest, my CHA would probably be - around a 10. Added to that, I don't think well on my feet, so in game situations when everyone wants the 'talky elf' to do her thing, I really struggle. I will always give it a go, but eventually I will stress myself out to the point that I just want to roll the damn die already - at which point the DM will let me - and then facepalm, because her diplomacy is 27 and she's pretty much unstoppable. I could never roleplay a 27 diplomacy though, I'm just not that good an actor. The DM realises this and makes allowances.

Not saying it doesn't suck though, if people don't make any effort at all. I can say in this game that all of us make an effor to roleplay and problem solve - just that our DM is kind and gracious when we get stuck.

+10 points for this! great explanation of the gaming system, gamers, players, and PC's. well said!

Serpentine
2011-01-18, 10:39 AM
Wait a minute! They sell these things? Man, I have always been making those myself.Eeeeyup. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Host_a_Murder) Lets see... I think I've done... maybe the Chicago Caper, I think Hoo Hung Woo, The Good The Bad and the Guilty, annnnd An Affair to Dismember.

Sipex
2011-01-18, 10:55 AM
I've always been a fan of putting puzzles in which the players have to solve. This doesn't mean I'm going to completely ignore high INT or good skill checks though, these things will be useful to allow the players to access hints and additional information.

For example, my players entered a ruin which used to be an old temple to some god (Pelor as it later turns out). Upon fighting their way through the goblins which had taken residence the players find a keepsake chest which has two things in it
- A silver holy symbol to Pelor in the shape of a sun with a keyhole in it (I drew it out to give them an idea)
- A silver key made of the same

Mild investigation by the players showed that the key fit in the keyhole but turning it did nothing so they left it alone.

The players then accessed a secret path from within the ruins which led them through a channel of caves (with encounters) and eventually they came upon a set of double doors which read "Those loyal to Pelor only need to touch his eye"

I drew out the doors for the players at this point which depicted a mural of sorts. It was a scene on a countryside full of hills and trees and homes and the sky seperated the scene from a bunch of floating faces in the sky (assumed to be various gods) which had blank eyes (no pupils or retna). One door was cast in night with a little moon while the other was day with a sun in the sky.

The players tried a few things (not knowing about pelor) and touched the eyes of all the gods, with no results. One of them decides to make a religion check and finds out Pelor is the god of light and his symbol is a sun!

From here it was obvious. Press sun, sun pushes in leaving a hole. Put symbol into hole, put key into symbol, turn. TADA.

That said I've also come up with some failures for puzzles too (and I reward my players when I find out I messed up), so I take to discussing puzzles with other DMs after I design them to make sure they're not as abstract as I think.

Overall my players like these kinds of puzzles, I just need to make sure I tailor the right puzzle to the right person.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-18, 11:02 AM
I'm a Old School D&D gamer. I love a good puzzle and a good mystery. Part of the fun of role-playing and D&D in general is figuring things out. And Old School D&D was full of puzzles and mysteries that the player had to figure out.
Man, you have a lot of problems with this crowd, don't you :smalltongue:

PREAMBLE
While their behavior may have seemed lazy to you, it is perfectly explicable based on now WotC D&D games are designed. In TSR D&D there were very few skills for resolving not-combat situations so you had to just RP everything out - it was a Player vs. DM system.

In WotC D&D you have mechanics for resolving everything, and the assumption is that you can use those skills for just such an end - a PC vs. NPC system.

Puzzles that must be solved by Players have always been problematic for the reasons listed previously: they require Players (not characters) to solve them, they can bring play to a screeching halt, and lots of people just don't like them.
That said, what you gave to your Players was less a Puzzle and more a Mystery. Players should reasonably expect to be able to roll skills to help solve a Mystery - and you, as the DM, need to facilitate them.

When a Player says "What do I roll to solve X?" you say "well, how do you want to go about solving X?" This gets them thinking IC and can spur on RP. If they roll poorly, don't give them no clues - but give them a clue that doesn't tell them much. A Successful Streetwise may turn up a reliable witness for the attack (then use some Diplomacy to get good info out) while a Failed Streetwise may direct the PCs to "that weird guy who lives in the woods" - in truth a harmless hobo but one who was recently infected with lycanthrophy. If the PCs dispatch him, they may suspect they have solved the problem - until another werewolf attack comes in the night.

valadil
2011-01-18, 01:48 PM
I agree that that was some serious laziness on the part of your players. I'm unsurprised that this took place at an open game in a game store. Most of the lazy RPing I've seen comes from players who have only ever encountered that type of environment. My experience is limited to Living Forgotten Realms, but it's pretty damn common for players to ignore planning entirely on the basis that if they need some particular plan or item it will show up when they do.

Regarding puzzles in general, I'm a big fan of them provided that they're appropriate. Solve a riddle to open a door is rarely appropriate. Here's one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153021&highlight=beta+test+puzzle) one that I wrote for my current game (don't necro the thread though). I think it was appropriate. Next time I run a modern game I plan on giving the PCs an NPC's computer and having them figure out the NPC's location by looking through his browser cache. They'll find a bunch of images from a google map and have to fit them together to figure out his location. This is a traditional puzzle, but fits the context 100%.

The other trait of a good puzzle IMO is how the players progress through it. I don't like puzzles with an "Ah ha!" moment. The problem with them is that the players sit around bored until someone sees the answer and then the puzzle is over. Usually that happens when you give out the right clue. I'd rather have a puzzle that takes some work. If they're struggling, give out a clue and they can make some progress. Hopefully that leads to the next big clue. Naturally this type of puzzle is really damn hard to write.

Warlawk
2011-01-18, 02:14 PM
In the general spirit of the thread...

There's a "puzzle" that I think would be amazing to put into a game sometime. However, I really don't think it would work out. There is only one person in the group who *might* figure out what was going on, and it's obscure enough I think I would have to club them with clues to even get them to understand what happened, then actually solving the thing would just be pretty much out of the question. It's just something that is odd and uncommon enough that it would be a problem.

Also, I am a bit unsure of my own ability to run the geography of the dang thing well. I have a good map somewhere, but would have to track it down.

I think it would be amazing to toss the players into the center of a tesseract/hypercube.

Emmerask
2011-01-18, 07:14 PM
Yep, I did the hypercube once and well it did not end that well, it wasn´t a total failure, the main problem was the "retro-engineering" the way the rooms shifted (I used a Cube (from the film) not the hypercube (from the other film), that would be even harder to solve^^).
Anyway in the end and after a lot of help they finally figured it out.

If you really want to run a hypercube then you should place a lot of advice in those rooms ^^

Warlawk
2011-01-18, 10:43 PM
Yep, I did the hypercube once and well it did not end that well, it wasn´t a total failure, the main problem was the "retro-engineering" the way the rooms shifted (I used a Cube (from the film) not the hypercube (from the other film), that would be even harder to solve^^).
Anyway in the end and after a lot of help they finally figured it out.

If you really want to run a hypercube then you should place a lot of advice in those rooms ^^

Yeah, I've never actually seen either movie... I am just familiar with the concept from a casual interest in physics, the concept pops up every now and again.

I really think though that this is one of those things that I *love* the idea, but in play it simply would not work out either from a DMing perspective or for the players. It's just a pretty out there puzzle.

Pink
2011-01-18, 11:24 PM
Actually, floor #4 of Monte Cook's www.dungeonaday.com is a tesseract of sorts. It has eight sides, six for each face of the cube, one as a vertical space, and one for a horizontal space. It comes with a map you can fold into a cube to help you better understand the concept (map does not contain the extra spaces cause that might be impossible).

I plan to implement it by carefully cutting out the rooms and putting them down on the table one at a time, and see how long it takes for players to catch on.

NichG
2011-01-18, 11:26 PM
For what it's worth I once used an offset and rotated tiling of a set of rooms for an infinite library along the lines of Discworld's L-space. The players eventually figured it out since we were using a battlemat and they could see the same characteristic shapes of the rooms repeat.

Shpadoinkle
2011-01-18, 11:38 PM
Yeah, I've never actually seen either movie...

Cube is a GREAT movie.

Cube 2... is... incredibly stupid and just outright sucks.

Cue 3 is... still pretty stupid and bad and not worth seeing, but it's not eye-clawingly stupid like Cube 2 is.

Earthwalker
2011-01-20, 06:19 AM
I didn’t know if I should ask for advice here or on the GM thread. Both make sense.
Murder on the Lightning Rail.
So you have a train journey an environment where people are confined together. We have a murder and someone needs to workout who done it.
I am looking for clues to leave at a murder site, as well as clues that can be used to break alibis.
At the moment I have only one clue and I will needs loads for the murder site (one clue is never enough) The setting is DnD and its sort of medievil fantasy. Think of a reasonably standard DnD world just no wizard only sorcorers.
Any one have any ideas to help me solve a murder ?

Serpentine
2011-01-20, 06:34 AM
Are you the DM trying to set up a murder, or a player trying to solve it?
Assuming the former, what sort of a murder is it?

Earthwalker
2011-01-20, 06:51 AM
I am a GM setting up a murder.
Think Murder on the orient express, only with lightning powered carriages hung from a rail about 20 foot in the air.

The murder happens at night, it is particulary bloody. The murder itself seems ritualistic and is part of (knowledge religion) a ceromony to the old gods.

The players are a group of "medics" (at least classes capable of healing) and will be granted some authority by the Lord they are currently traveling with to solve the crime before the train gets to its next stop. The train is currently broken down miles from the nearest station.

The other authority on the train is the conductor and I suppose his staff. (porters and such)

Asume one person did the murder but they do have someone providing an alibi (that should be able to be broken). Also a fake trail of someone climbing down from the train is left (Rope hanging from a window)

Serpentine
2011-01-20, 07:10 AM
How, exactly, was the murder commited, by whom and for what reason (aside from the "ceremony to an old god" thing)? You need to work at it backwards.
Off the top of my head, though, some possible clues include: the murder weapon/s itself, a scrap of paper (from an old book about the god?), a symbol, a trace of magic, something left on the body, the victim themself and their relationships with others on board, rumours, suspicions, people detected lying (but not necessarily directly because of the murder), secret letters, stories that don't match up, someone's changed personality or unusual state of mind, blood or some other substance on an item of clothing, a scrap of cloth, a misplaced trinket...
Again, might be worth acquiring a Host a Murder and see what they have :smallwink: In particular, The Last Train From Paris is set on a train.

I recommend giving everyone a guilty concience. Not necessarily because of the murder, but, say, because of affairs or a dirty family secret or illegal practices and the like. Lots of red herrings that way.

kamikasei
2011-01-20, 07:16 AM
What system are you playing in (3.x, 4e, other) and what sort of magic is available? Deduction becomes difficult when the range of impossible things you can safely eliminate gets whittled down by supernatural power.

Earthwalker
2011-01-20, 07:39 AM
Working backwards (honestly I was going with the murder idea and work it out from there but lets do tis right.)

Victim : Mr A Body (name to be confirmed)
Mr Body works as an investagtive jourlist (yes this exist in my DnD world) and is know for his last expose on the street gangs in The City and thier involvment with the old gods. This is what is generally known of his work.

His next project is looking into how the local Trade Guild use members of the street gangs to do work off the books. Smuggling, drug running that kind of deal. His work on the trade house is so far unpublished, he is traveling to the next city for his safty and to hopfully get his work published.

The only person traveling with Mr Body is a bodyguard hired in The City before he left. All the bodyguard knows is that Mr Body was in fear of his life, and the night of the murder he fell sleep (was drugged)

The murder happens in Mr Bodys compartment. With the boadygaurd asleep in the next room. Mr Body was stabbed to death, a symbol of the old gods was cut into his skin.

A magical ritual was performed in the room and blood was spilled, from apprences the blood spilled was not Mr Bodys. (the blood was used to perform the magic, thats how magic works in Earthwalk World)

The Murder - Mr Stabby (name will be changed)

Is a magic using assassin (low level) who uses bloos to power his spells (most people do) but does not wear one of the new fangled blood rings that painlessly draw blood for spell casting but instead cuts the his thumb or finger to get blood (in patterns used by followers of the old gods).

I know I still need to think of more. I am hoping some suggestions might help me along.

Also need a list of other passengers with some nice supicous goings on.

hmmm will have to think of more as people ask questions maybe.

Earthwalker
2011-01-20, 07:47 AM
What system are you playing in (3.x, 4e, other) and what sort of magic is available? Deduction becomes difficult when the range of impossible things you can safely eliminate gets whittled down by supernatural power.

Oh I got carried away with my last post and didn't reply to this.
The characters in question will be low level. with one spell caster a cloustered cleric.

This is all happening in a pathfinder / 3.5 environment no one will be over lvl 2.The NPCs will not have a hugh range of magic to foil plans.

Jay R
2011-01-20, 12:41 PM
About a whole 20 minutes into the game, once they saw the 'mysterious death plot', I got this:We investigate the town for a couple hours. What is the DC for us to solve the mystery?

I will no more let you say, "we investigate the town for two hours" than I would let you say "we investigate the dungeon for two hours; what's the DC for getting all the loot?"

------------------

[A bunch of D&D players come to Rivendell for the D&D Game of Elrond.]

Elrond: Frodo, you must take the Ring to Mordor and cast it into the Fires of Mount Doom.

Frodo: OK. What's the DC for that? (rolls dice) I succeed.

Elrond: All right, everybody make your saving throw.

Boromir: I failed my throw. I'm dead.

Gandalf: I failed too, but I'm a wizard.

Elrond: OK -- make your resurrection throw.

Gandalf: (Rolls again) Yeah -- I resurrect.

Everyone else: We make our saving throws.

Elrond: OK, now roll for damage. (Watches them roll) Pretty good, you're all doing fine ....Oops, Frodo, I don't think that's too bad. (Consults book.) You lose a finger. Everybody else is fine.

Elrond: OK, now roll for magic items. (They roll dice. Elrond looks at the rolls.) You all get elven cloaks. Frodo, you get a magic sword and mithril chain, and a vial of elven water. The sword glows. So does the water. Sam, not a great roll -- you get a box of dirt, with one seed. Merry and Pippin, you get ent potions. And, let me see here -- also some tobacco. Aragorn, you get a sword and a palen--, um, pala--, no, umm, a crystal ball. Also a kingdom and my daughter. Legolas, you get a magic bow. Gandalf, you get -- well, you just get a new staff and your old sword back. Ooh, Gimli, bad roll. You get (consults table) three hairs.

Elrond: OK, everybody, great game. Come back next week so we can play Harry Potter. We're gonna do the whole saga, so remember to plan for a long game -- call it twenty or thirty minutes.

Jay R
2011-01-20, 01:07 PM
This was not what the players had in mind, however. About a whole 20 minutes into the game, once they saw the 'mysterious death plot', I got this:We investigate the town for a couple hours. What is the DC for us to solve the mystery?

There are several approaches. The cruelest is to give them what they asked for. "OK -- roll the dice. Yeah, you solve the mystery, slay the monster, and get lots of reward. Game Over." And start packing your stuff up. When they complain, tell them that they specifically told you they weren't going to play out the encounters.

Or you can explain it to them. "You have to go through the encounters to find the clues. I won't tell you if there's a gang in town you'll have to fight. I won't tell you if there's a thief trying to pick strangers' pockets. I won't tell you if there's any magic available. I won't tell you if the entire thing is a fraud, for political purposes. I won't tell you if the final battle will take place in town, and I won't tell you if there's an evil priest trying to harvest kidneys. The town has encounters in it. You cannot skip them."

(And if there were no fighting encounters yet, I would quietly invent a thief or a gang.)


So this so common in modern games? Are modern players just lazy? Is this just another symptom of video game players(where they just grab the cheat book to figure out how to beat the quest)?

I first saw a version of this in 1976, so don't blame the video games. It's a reasonable mistake to make. After all, the player whose character has high strength doesn't actually swing a sword. The one with the high-DEX thief doesn't really pick a pocket. We actively don't want the one playing the bard to sing. Why should the one playing the high-INT character actually have to think?

The problem is that most people, in all times and places, will find a cheap and easy way to do the stuff they don't enjoy. There are people playing who in order to simulate fantasy combat, and the mystery is the part of the game, along with filling out their character sheets, that they have to put up with in order to kill orcs.

That surprised me too, when I first noticed. When I started, all players were high-IQ gamers who were here to solve puzzles and be clever. But this isn't a high-IQ niche game any more; it's a mass market game. We have one player in our group who will never read the rules, or play anything but a fighter. He wants us to point him at the bad guys, so we do.

ffone
2011-01-20, 01:17 PM
This was not what the players had in mind, however. About a whole 20 minutes into the game, once they saw the 'mysterious death plot', I got this:We investigate the town for a couple hours. What is the DC for us to solve the mystery?


Classic Gather Information check. For GI what I usually do is decide ahead of time the DCs to turn up certain clues in the town (and plot-essential ones will usually have a DC of 20 at most, so even in a party where no one has a bonus, they can get it eventually....or there will be other ways entirely of progressing the plot), but then the players will have to figure out what those clues mean.

Doing GI as a roll rather than roleplaying *is* nice, b/c, as a DM, I don't really enjoy doing a super-detailed explanation of every barn the PCs peek into and every farmer they talk to when they do hours of cruising-about-town.

But if they're wording it as the 'DC to solve the mystery'...then yeah, silly.

Jay R
2011-01-20, 06:11 PM
One more option:

Them: We spend two hours around town. What's the DC for this?

You: "Before you start, make a Deduction roll. (Roll!) You succeeded -- congratulations! OK, you deduce that the houses will not be helpful, and that you need to try the taverns, inns, farms, guardhouses or possibly the stables. Roll again: OK, you realize that you need to find out what kind of creature is involved, how it operates, when it might attack again, and possibly what weaknesses it might have. Where do you go first to try to find these things?"

(In response to *any* response from them that doesn't give a clear destination.) "You have no more information than you did the last time you rolled, and you realize that you cannot figure anything else out without more information. Where are you going next?"

Each time they find a real clue and ask to roll, let them. If they succeed, say, "You are now pretty certain that this is an important clue, and deduce that you need more information to go with it. Where do you go next?" On a really good roll, help them decide where to go: "You conclude that the only person likely to recognize this horseshoe would be the blacksmith. Where do you go next?"

Whatever they say, your response should end with "Where do you go next?"

In short, treat their requests for rolls as a tool to send them where they should go next.

More generally, use their actions, not to skip the plot, but to find it.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Totally Guy
2011-01-21, 01:25 PM
There's a new podcast up on the Jennisodes where she (and an over-talkative guest) devote the whole show to Puzzles in role playing games.

Puzzles in Games (http://www.jennisodes.com/podcasts/puzzles-in-games/)

It gives out some good advice on putting puzzles in the game.