PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 / Pathfinder skillset in 4th Edition



EccentricOwl
2011-01-18, 02:18 AM
I've been really enjoying 4th edition; as a lifetime GM, it's a load of fun to run and it's great to see players enjoying combat in a very different way.

I will admit my fondness for the 3.x / Pathfinder skill system; perhaps it is my preference for other skill-based systems like "Call of Cthulhu" that creates my bias, but I always felt that the skill system - while redundant at times - was overall fairly good at what it did.

Having seen the final unified skillset in Paizo's excellent Pathfinder series, I was wondering what my fellow gamers thought about adapting it to the 4th edition system. I want the best of both worlds - the customization and roleplaying allowed with one skillset and the sturdy and amicable mechanics of another.

What do you think? What classes would get what? Would it be too jarring?

WitchSlayer
2011-01-18, 04:48 AM
You would probably have to give people more skills to compensate for the more skills available

Kurald Galain
2011-01-18, 04:58 AM
I find that the 4E set lacks a few common skills, and would be improved by adding these. To compensate for the lengthier list, give every class an additional trained skill for free.

My personal examples are Craft and Perform, and I recently noticed that there isn't really a suitable skill for Knowledge: the Planes either (well, I suppose Arcana could cover it).

Loren
2011-01-18, 08:09 AM
I agree that at times the 4E skill list seems overly compressed. Furthermore, it seems compressed in odd ways, why does athletics contain several unrelated activities, but diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate are seperate? Let's do some analysis.

4E has 17 skills conveniently, pathfinder has 34. Consequently, if you want to just directly substitute the two list all you'd need to do is double the number of skill points each character gets at the start of the game. Or so it would appear on the surface.

Once you start looking into the particulars I think things may start to fall apart. Fly as an example seems to be a not particularly useful skill in 4E. Linguistics combines an interesting set of barely related abilities, similar to althletics in 4E. You'd be losing athletics, and personally I like being able to have chase scenes based on more than just comparisions of base speed. Similarly, you'd be missing endurance which is necessary as a replacement for fortitude checks.
Another, more fundimental problem may be found in how Pathfinder skill "unpack" from 4E skills. As an example, in 4E Arcane covers knowledge Arcane, spellcraft, and use magical device. Similarly, Althletics has fivecomponents (jump, climb, run, swimming and escaping grabs), acrobatics has four (stunts, balance, escape grabs and restraints, and reducing falling damage). Other 4E skills have only two abilities, and therefore break nicely into a doubled skill list. Still other skills, primarily they talking skills, remain the same. Basically, all this means is the proportion of skill training alocated to each class may need to be altered to fit the new skill lists, if balance is to be preserved.

Given this alalysis I think you might be better served by trying to port in say 8 selected skills and trying to fine tune how they integrate into the game. So, for instance, if you want to have seperate clinb and jump checks bring in those skills, but give characters with athletics in their lists more training points.

edit:
I've just observed that the classes in the PHB basically get skill points for half to 3/4 of their skill list. If you were to introduce a significant number of new skills you'd need to integrate them into the skill lists of particular classes. you could then adjust the amount of training each class gets to be roughly 2/3 the new list. You may encounter difficulties with classes that come already trained in a particular skill, such as wizards who all have arcane.

EccentricOwl
2011-01-19, 01:18 PM
I will definitely agree that the skillset is a little too compressed, even if the ideas behind it are good. For example, some of the books can argue that skills like Thievery are used for lockpicking, disabling devices, engineering, and almost anything that involves fine-tuning with hands.

I also miss skills like Craft and Perform, minor as they are.

It wouldn't be too bad just to give most classes a new skill and the ones who are having all their skills parted out more than one.

4th edition skillset:

Acrobatics
Arcana
Athletics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Dungeoneering
Endurance
Heal
History
Insight
Intimidate
Nature
Perception
Religion
Stealth
Streetwise
Thievery

Revised Skills
Acrobatics
Arcana
Athletics
Bluff
Craft (not sure where it was covered before)
Diplomacy
Disguise (from thievery)
Dungeoneering
Engineering (from dungeoneering and thievery)
Endurance
Heal
History
Insight
Intimidate
Nature
Perception
Perform (Not covered before)
Religion
Stealth
Streetwise
Thievery


Your thoughts?

Kurald Galain
2011-01-19, 01:26 PM
Your thoughts?

I tend to cover Disguise with Bluff, and it is not something that comes up often in my campaigns.

Consider splitting off Swim from Athletics, and positing that without that skill trained, your character can't swim. Obviously, don't do this if "swim or die" is a frequent occurence in your campaign.

Animal Handling is missing, and I find it doesn't really fit with the general "herbalism, weather lore, and geography" that is nature. This skill probably covers riding as well.

I like engineering to cover missing knowledge fields. I would also add knowledge/local in some campaigns (and that also covers royalty and nobility), and knowledge/planes in others.

Decipher script is missing, but doesn't seem to come up all that often.

Finally, it may fit in some campaigns that most classes cannot read and write by default. If most of the world is illiterate, that's not nearly as big a drawback as it seems.

Loren
2011-01-19, 03:13 PM
what would Craft and Perform do?

My take one skills like Craft, Perform, and Profession would be to allow all characters to select one or two as they like taking it out side of the skill economy. They could use these options in the place of untrained skills, if they could make a reasonable case as to why it would apply.
-I'd also look into how they would intergrate with martial practices, which expand the uses of skills for money (sorta like rituals for none casters).

Engineering and diguise all seem like reasonable additions (as do many others).

How do you plan on adding them to class lists and improving the character's ability to buy skills?

Person_Man
2011-01-19, 05:13 PM
A big issue in 3.X which was largely resolved in 4E was that 1 Skill rank in Skill X was not equivalent to 1 Skill rank in Skill Y. 10 ranks in Tumble is pretty much a requirement for many builds and is used in virtually every combat, whereas 10 ranks in Profession is pretty much useless, and 10 ranks in Perform might be used in every combat by the Bard but is essentially a Skill tax on him in order to use his abilities.

So I'm actually rather fond of 4E Skills, and I'm generally a big critic of 4E. If you want players to have more fluff Skills/Abilities, then just give them Non-Weapon Proficiencies (check out 1st and 2nd edition). Instead of messing with a core mechanic that has a direct impact on combat, create a new parallel mechanic which has no impact on combat.

Kurald Galain
2011-01-19, 06:43 PM
A big issue in 3.X which was largely resolved in 4E was that 1 Skill rank in Skill X was not equivalent to 1 Skill rank in Skill Y.
That's not the case in 4E either. Certain skills are useful for everyone (e.g. Endurance against overland effects and diseases), whereas other skills are only necessary on one character in the party (e.g. Diplomacy on the bard).

Then, there's skills that overlap (many DMs will let you use Acrobatics for Athletics, or vice versa); skills with set low DCs (in particular Heal); and skills that tend to backfire (Intimidate in many official adventures).

kyoryu
2011-01-19, 08:29 PM
Crafting already exists in 4E - it's covered as either Ritual Magic or Martial Practices.

Kurald Galain
2011-01-20, 04:21 AM
Crafting already exists in 4E - it's covered as either Ritual Magic or Martial Practices.

Only for a very narrow definition of "crafting". For example, neither can be used for on-the-fly repairs, or in combat, or in an SC.

EccentricOwl
2011-01-26, 12:57 PM
My final solution was to add the following skills:

Engineering (Int)
Knowledge (Specific) - Players select one very narrow area of knowledge that isn't already covered and receive a large bonus.
Perform (Cha)
Craft (Int)
Profession (Wis) - Players select one activity they excel at and receive a large bonus.

Players receive all of the above as trainable skills. Every player gets another trained skill to spend on the above, and more depending on their intelligence - with a 14 they get an extra skill, and with an 18 another extra skill.

Loren
2011-01-26, 01:03 PM
Looks good
just to clarify, they get one skill point for your list. And then bonus skill point just for your list (not for their class list)?

edit
What type of engineer? (I question for earlier editions as well) Is it mechanical engineering or civil?

kieza
2011-01-26, 04:18 PM
I've got a couple of suggestions:

I'd personally try splitting craft and profession skills into a different category: Trade skills. Everybody gets one for free at first level, whether it's blacksmithing, leatherworking, fletching, or being a scribe, lawyer, or farmer. You get the half-level bonus and trained bonus as usual, but the DM decides based on the situation what ability bonus to use. For instance a blacksmith making something might use Str or Dex, but when examining a piece of craftsmanship, would use Wis or Int. Likewise, a lawyer would use Int to study relevant laws and come up with a defense, but would use Cha to sway a jury. You can get more trade skills with the Skill Training feat, like any skill.

I'd also combine Disguise and Forgery into one skill (maybe Deceit or Skullduggery?), since they don't come up as often as a lot of skills. Putting two in one makes it more useful to train in it.

EccentricOwl
2011-01-27, 01:31 PM
Looks good
just to clarify, they get one skill point for your list. And then bonus skill point just for your list (not for their class list)?

edit
What type of engineer? (I question for earlier editions as well) Is it mechanical engineering or civil?

I suppose mechanical. I'd probably ask for a knowledge roll if they wanted to be good at civil engineering.
In 4th Edition, it's already been wrapped up into Bluff for Disguise and Thievery for Forgery.


I looooove the idea of simply having 'trade skills'. It sounds great!