Caligula's tomb discovered

[Asta Kask]

From Pharyngula. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/17/caligula-tomb-found-police-statue?CMP=twt_fd)

Apparently a tomb robber has discovered Caligula's tomb. Who'd have thunk? I wonder what strange and wondrous objects await inside?

[Serpentine]

Speaking of tombs and archaeology...
Whaaaaat?
*reads article*
Wait... Wasn't Caligula mostly just considered insane by that one guy who liked to gossip about the old emperors, not so much his contemporaries? And the whole horse thing is, like, so totally taken out of context.

[Asta Kask]

Tacitus and Suetonius both agree that he was a bad emperor, and what we would call 'insane'. However, I think that historians agree that this is largely true (but I couldn't give you a reference).

Any historians in the playground? And I wonder what our Lady Archaeologist thinks about it.

[Serpentine]

Eeeeh... They were both writing at least 50 years after Caligula's death, or thereabouts. And I'm pretty sure Seutonius was a notorious gossip.
Dunno that Caligula was a particularly good emperor, but I'd take most of what was said about him with a great big block of salt. Take the horse thing, for example: that wasn't so much about him thinking his horse was amazing and worthy of being a consul, as a swipe at all his colleagues in a "my horse could do a better job than you!" way.

[Asta Kask]

*reads Wikipedia*

Apparently we also have two contemporaneous sources - Philo and Seneca. Although they don't tell us much they agree that Caligula was a cruel and irresponsible person.

Although he did have his moments of awesome. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tebTGIddPDk)

[Morph Bark]

Guess sometimes tomb raiders do discover new archaeological sites, not just in fiction. :smallamused:

(And I highly doubt this tomb raider looks like Lara Croft.)

[Lady Moreta]

Tacitus and Suetonius both agree that he was a bad emperor, and what we would call 'insane'. However, I think that historians agree that this is largely true (but I couldn't give you a reference).

Any historians in the playground? And I wonder what our Lady Archaeologist thinks about it.

She thinks she almost missed the thread 'cause it was right down the bottom of the page. She also doesn't think it'll turn out to be Caligula's tomb.

Couple of reasons - one, there's no mention that it's actually a tomb that's been found. For all we know, it could be a statue of Caligula that was set up at his villa and that's what's been found. And it's wearing caligae? Big whoop. They were soliders shoes, I'll be a lot of statues have them. Most of the Roman emperors were big on the military might bit, it could be any one of them. I would also be interested to know exactly what 'god robes' looks like. I know what they mean, flowing robes/toga, fancy look to it - everything extravagant. Once again, hardly conclusive proof.

Not to mention, the man was murdered by his own guard! It's clear he was unpopular. What on earth makes these people think they were going to give him what amounts to a state burial? I did some googling and one article I found, from an actual archaeology site, mentions the fact according to history, he was cremated and hastily buried under 'a light covering of turf' and that later his sisters' came and removed the body. Would they really have had the wherewithal to bury him in an 'appropriate' tomb with a 2.5m statue? I highly doubt it. It's far more likely that his assets were immediately taken. And they were women... in Roman times. Women were nothing. They might have been able to steal the body, but then inter it in a grave like that? Never happen. According to the article, the Latin word used to describe what happened simply means 'buried' - not intered, not 'buried with honour' nothing. Just dumped in the ground and soil thrown on top.



True, Caligula had a big villa there, but it is almost inconceivable that this assassinated symbol of imperial monstrosity would have been given a grand monument, plus a big statue there.”

Link One. (http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/01/2011/caligulas-tomb-or-is-it)
Link Two ("http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/18/5870712-statue-sparks-talk-of-caligulas-tomb)

A couple of links pretty much saying exactly what I just did, only better 'cause they actually know what they're talking about. :smallsmile:

It's far more likely that if the statue is of Caligula, and clearly it has no head or they'd be more definite about it, that they've found the villa we know was built there. The man was nuts, and every Roman emperor had an ego the size of their empire so it's entirely likely he'd had have put statues of himself there. While I have no doubt most of his liquid assests would have been seized, it is possible that there was such a stigma surrounding him that no one would have wanted to go near his actual property and so it was left alone.

Having said that, if it is his villa, I doubt very much that they'll find anything truly spectacular. There's no mention of how long this robber has been raiding this site, it could have been years. And even if it was a new find for them, it's been there for a long time, they certainly won't have been the first to find and raid the place. Even if Caligula's contemporaries preferred to leave the place alone (and I could be wrong, his stigma could have been such that they preferred instead to trash the place, in which case even less will still be in situ), later peoples won't have necessarily had the same compulsion. There may be some items/artefacts still there, but I'd lay odds they'd be mostly day-to-day type of things that don't fetch a great price on the antiquities black market and so have been left behind.

[Traab]

Didnt julius ceaser get a state burial? He was murdered by his own government!

[Blue Ghost]

You're an archaeologist, Lady Moreta? That is so cool.

Tomb or not, this is quite an interesting find. I recall reading about Caligula. Quite a character.

[Cobalt]

Didnt julius ceaser get a state burial? He was murdered by his own government!

Yes, but people liked him, for the large part (soldiers making a huge majority, likely). Public opinion thing, I'd spit-ball. The government boys who stabbed his faces off weren't really doing it because they hated his rotten roman guts, anyway, it was because he was taking the reigns of the strongest empire that half of history and they didn't quite like the way that was all going down. So they stabby stabbed. All over his torso area-zone. Then gave him statues and flowers and plays.

[Serpentine]

And they were women... in Roman times. Women were nothing.Hey now, that's not entirely fair. The ideal and real practice are often leagues apart, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some women had quite a lot of independence and sway.

Didnt julius ceaser get a state burial? He was murdered by his own government!Yeah, but then his son took over pretty much straight away anyway.

[Lady Moreta]

Didnt julius ceaser get a state burial? He was murdered by his own government!

I don't know actually :smallsmile: We didn't do any classical archaeology, but I did a minor in Classics which is where I get my meager knowledge from. XXX is right, Julius Caesar was popular, Caligula was not.

The main telling point however, is the fact that the ancient sources don't mention a state burial. If you read the links I posted earlier, you'll note that the word used to describe what happened simply meant 'buried'. If he'd had a state funeral that word would have been different. Not to mention that if he had it would have involved parades, possibly games, probably a feast of some sort, a procession to the tomb, lots of speeches, sacrifices to the various gods... something like that would have been mentioned - especially for someone whom pretty much everyone hated. It's not mentioned though, which tells me he probably got dumped somewhere.

Second point - the sources tell us that after he was buried his sisters came and nicked the body and reburied it. If he'd had a state funeral/burial, why would they have bothered? They wouldn't have needed to... and you can't tell me they'd have done a state funeral and then just dumped the body. The suggestion is that the sisters took the body and buried it in the family grave, where most of the bodies of that line of emperors ended up. Quite frankly, that's a much more likely scenario.


You're an archaeologist, Lady Moreta? That is so cool.

Sort of :smalltongue: I'm actually working in admin right now, because archaeology jobs are hard to find.


Hey now, that's not entirely fair. The ideal and real practice are often leagues apart, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some women had quite a lot of independence and sway.

My apologies dear lady :smallsmile: Most of the classics I did focused on Greek, rather than Roman life & times. Would you accept that the sisters of a man murdered by his own bodyguards and despised by the vast majority of the people would have been unlikely to have a lot of independence and sway? :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

My apologies dear lady :smallsmile: Most of the classics I did focused on Greek, rather than Roman life & times. Would you accept that the sisters of a man murdered by his own bodyguards and despised by the vast majority of the people would have been unlikely to have a lot of independence and sway? :smallsmile:Considering the number of imperial women who completely dominated the men who were officially "in charge"? Not necessarily :smallwink:
Still, I suppose it got... well, not worse, but more so in the late Roman era and Byzantium.

[Lady Moreta]

Considering the number of imperial women who completely dominated the men who were officially "in charge"? Not necessarily :smallwink:

See... now you're just being stubborn :smalltongue:

[Claudius Maximus]

Yeah, but then his son took over pretty much straight away anyway.

Not... exactly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarion)

Augustus wasn't really Caesar's son.

[Dacia Brabant]

Gaius Julius Caesar wasn't merely popular, he was made Dictator In Perpetua when that superlegal authority was only ever granted for six months (or less) and only he and Sulla were Dictator that century--and none before them since the Second Punic War. After his assassination, he was legally deified as the Divine Julius, the first Roman since mythic times to be elevated to godhood. Pretty big deal.

As for Gaius Caesar Caligula, there is a lot of uncertainty about what really went on during his brief reign. But the fact that contemporary accounts turn from mostly positive in his first 2 years to completely negative in his last 2 years, coinciding with attempted political reforms, wastefulness and famine, seem to indicate that he made some very bad moves and was punished for it. And at least the blasphemy charge we know is correct, he did annex the Temple of Castor and Pollux in part of an apparent effort to make himself a living god. At least Julius and Octavius had the good sense to wait until they were dead. :smalltongue:

And I agree that the finding is likely a villa of his, not his tomb. He built so much stuff for himself, I'd imagine some of it would survive into the present.


Considering the number of imperial women who completely dominated the men who were officially "in charge"? Not necessarily
Still, I suppose it got... well, not worse, but more so in the late Roman era and Byzantium.

I don't know much about the late Western Empire or Byzantium, but in the Republic and the Principate I can really only think of Fulvia as a Roman woman with any political power. Patrician women like Livia Drusilla or Aurelia or Cornelia the mother of the Gracchi had power, certainly, but not of the sort to command the legions.

[Yora]

Not to mention, the man was murdered by his own guard! It's clear he was unpopular. What on earth makes these people think they were going to give him what amounts to a state burial?
But keep in mind that the Pretorian Guard killed a lot of their employers. :smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

I don't know much about the late Western Empire or Byzantium, but in the Republic and the Principate I can really only think of Fulvia as a Roman woman with any political power. Patrician women like Livia Drusilla or Aurelia or Cornelia the mother of the Gracchi had power, certainly, but not of the sort to command the legions.There's more power than "the sort to command the legions". Considering the statements I'm disagreeing with are that Roman women were "nothing", and to a lesser extent that they would have little ability to provide a decent burial, I don't need to demonstrate that sort of power, and rather direct you towards various subjects of Latin erotic poetry, and (iirc - there's a particular woman I'm trying to remember) Clodia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clodia).

[Lady Moreta]

Not... exactly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarion)

Augustus wasn't really Caesar's son.

Eh, adopted son, I think for Caesar's purposes it probably counts.


There's more power than "the sort to command the legions". Considering the statements I'm disagreeing with are that Roman women were "nothing", and to a lesser extent that they would have little ability to provide a decent burial, I don't need to demonstrate that sort of power, and rather direct you towards various subjects of Latin erotic poetry, and (iirc - there's a particular woman I'm trying to remember) Clodia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clodia).

And considering that you were disagreeing with me, and I agree with you... well, we've now created a paradox that will destroy the universe. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I do see your point. But I would still be very surprised if the sisters of someone as reviled as Caligula was would have been able to provide the ways and means to create a tomb for him including a 2.5m statue... which, unless the police had worked out the total height of the thing and it's just not specified in the article, had to have been taller than that originally. Clearly there's no head/face otherwise it would have been mentioned, so it must have lost something in height. I would find it hard to believe the women could have come up with something like that.

[Dacia Brabant]

There's more power than "the sort to command the legions". Considering the statements I'm disagreeing with are that Roman women were "nothing", and to a lesser extent that they would have little ability to provide a decent burial, I don't need to demonstrate that sort of power, and rather direct you towards various subjects of Latin erotic poetry, and (iirc - there's a particular woman I'm trying to remember) Clodia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clodia).

I was reacting to the "completely dominated the men who were 'in charge'" line. I see I misunderstood how you meant dominated. :smallredface:

[Dr.Epic]

How ironic: I was listening to the Cinema Snob's Caligula review when I went over to the playground and saw this thread. I wonder what thread I'll discover if I watch another one of his reviews...

[Tengu_temp]

How ironic: I was listening to the Cinema Snob's Caligula review when I went over to the playground and saw this thread. I wonder what thread I'll discover if I watch another one of his reviews...

The island where Cannibal Holocaust takes place - discovered!
Also, that's not what irony means. The word you're looking for is "coincidence".

[Dr.Epic]

The island where Cannibal Holocaust takes place - discovered!

I'm SO glad you wrote Cannibal instead of another word that happens to be the title of another film he reviewed that ends in Holocaust.


Also, that's not what irony means. The word you're looking for is "coincidence".

It's ironic in that's sort of unexpected. Irony can sort of be like coincidence.

[Tengu_temp]

It's ironic in that's sort of unexpected. Irony can sort of be like coincidence.

No. Just because something was unexpected, or an amusing coincidence, does not mean it's ironic. TV Tropes, help me here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Irony)

[Coidzor]

Heh, it gets more amusing when you misread irony as ivory.

Learn something new every day though. For instance, I just learned that they wanted to Damnatio Memoriae Caligula but couldn't.

[Flame of Anor]

I'm SO glad you wrote Cannibal instead of another word that happens to be the title of another film he reviewed that ends in Holocaust.

I give up, what?

[Tengu_temp]

There's also Porno Holocaust. And apparently, a movie called Cannibal Holocaust doesn't exist, or at least wasn't reviewed by Cinema Snob. I must have combined Porno Holocaust, Nudist Colony of the Dead and Curse of Cannibal Confederates in my head.

[Claudius Maximus]

Cannibal Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibal_Holocaust) definitely does exist.

[Serpentine]

No. Just because something was unexpected, or an amusing coincidence, does not mean it's ironic. TV Tropes, help me here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Irony)That was the most useful explanation of irony I've ever seen. Seriously, thanks for linking to that.

[Asta Kask]

Returning fleetingly to the topic - wouldn't the tomb have been constructed during his lifetime? Even if he was never buried there, and there aren't a lot of artefacts, you could still learn things by its layout, friezes, etc.?

[Eldan]

Hey now, that's not entirely fair. The ideal and real practice are often leagues apart, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some women had quite a lot of independence and sway.
Yeah, but then his son took over pretty much straight away anyway.

I was at a Roman site (I think it was the one Turkey. I'm honestly not sure, ife been to so many) and the guide translated the inscriptions to us. Apparently, every second house had the name of the High priestess on it, saying that she had funded the building. So, there are at least some women with political power (in distant provinces, sure).

[Eldpollard]

This thread is mostly making me realise how little of my Classical Civilisation A-level I can remember after three and a half years. But as I recall Caligula wasn't well liked. But then, Tacitus wasn't a fan of many people.

[Serpentine]

In case I've seemed dismissive of this discovery, I am looking forward to seeing what comes of it. Not often there's a big discovery like that nowadays.

[Asta Kask]

This thread is mostly making me realise how little of my Classical Civilisation A-level I can remember after three and a half years. But as I recall Caligula wasn't well liked. But then, Tacitus wasn't a fan of many people.

That may be so. But I'm a great fan of Tacitus. He was the Jon Stewart of his time.

[Coidzor]

I was at a Roman site (I think it was the one Turkey. I'm honestly not sure, ife been to so many) and the guide translated the inscriptions to us. Apparently, every second house had the name of the High priestess on it, saying that she had funded the building. So, there are at least some women with political power (in distant provinces, sure).

Was it Ephesus (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ephesus)? Because women were so used to being in power there that it had to be addressed when Artemis worship started to become supplanted.

[Eldan]

No, I don't think so... somewhere farther east, and smaller, from what I remember. That was quite a few years ago, so I don't really remember any details.

[pendell]

Hey now, that's not entirely fair. The ideal and real practice are often leagues apart, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some women had quite a lot of independence and sway.
Yeah, but then his son took over pretty much straight away anyway.

This book (http://www.amazon.com/Caesar-Christ-Civilization-Christianity-D/dp/1567310141/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295551783&sr=8-1) notes that women in Augustus' time had rights and privileges unknown in western civilization until the modern era. There were even female gladiators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiatrix).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lady Moreta]

Returning fleetingly to the topic - wouldn't the tomb have been constructed during his lifetime? Even if he was never buried there, and there aren't a lot of artefacts, you could still learn things by its layout, friezes, etc.?

Yes, absolutely :smallsmile: I'd forgotten that a lot of these tombs were built while the potential occupant was still alive - I'm a dope. Of course, with someone like Caligula, you'd have to take everything with a grain of salt. It would be designed to make him look better. Propaganda if you will.

Having said that, I still think if they've found anything at all, it's the villa not a tomb. One of the links I posted in my first post (the first link I think) also mentioned that there was already a tomb where that family line were buried, and that's where that author felt the sisters had taken the body.

I'll freely admit I don't know much about him, but he wasn't emperor for very long was he? And he wasn't that popular either. I don't know that he would have been able to find the resources to create what amounts to a monument for himself under those circumstances.


In case I've seemed dismissive of this discovery, I am looking forward to seeing what comes of it. Not often there's a big discovery like that nowadays.

Me too :smallsmile: in fact, I might have a wee squiz around google... see what else I can find out.