Tier 3 Alternatives for Classes

[Kuma Kode]

After a long way away in the land of d20 Modern Past/Future/Horror, my gaming group will be making a return to Dungeons and Dragons 3.5. However, the plot will focus on war, and so tactical combat will be heavy.

Since character balance is very important in that case, I want everyone to be Tier 3. As close as possible. Tier 2 class played "stupid" (like a blasty sorcerer) is cool, and an optimized tier 4 could be okay, too.

So what I want from you, Playgrounders, is some suggestions to throw at my players of tier 3 classes if they desire one of the full casters, or if they go for something weaker like fighter or monk.

I'm looking for alternatives, not new classes, so while I'm rather fond of the binder, it's not the kind of thing I'm looking for.

NOTE: The paladin will be using Gorgondantess's paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730), so paladin alternatives are covered.

[senrath]

Well, for fighters you can use either a Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage. For Monk, you can use Unarmed Swordsage.

Since you said "stupid" tier 2s are okay, let them play a Sorcerer if they want arcane or a Favored Soul if they want divine. Alternatively, point out things like the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer (although the Warmage needs to be a bit more optimized, since it's normally considered tier 4).

Rogue is tier 4, so with some optimization that'll be okay (according to you, anyway). Alternatively, show them the Factotum.

[Psyren]

The ToB classes are T3, as are Totemist and Psychic Warrior. Any of these make great melee/tanks.

T3 Skillmonkeys include the Factotum (with FoI), Beguiler, Savant and Psychic Rogue.

Bard is T3 with the right supplements, or Binder can take over for him as the face. Combine with Dread Necro and Shugenja to round out the casters.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Certain lower tier characters are down so low partly because they sorely lack non-combat skills. That means these classes get a bump in a combat-heavy game.

I forget who said it first, but I remember seeing (and agreeing with) the idea that, as far as character power goes, skill > build > class. A sorcerer doesn't need to be a stupid blaster; he just needs to be less optimized or played less intelligently than the lower Tiers. Alternatively, you could implement point buy differences, partial gestalt, or another house rule solution recommended in the Tier thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) instead of simply banning the higher tiers.

The main point is there is no real replacement for open-ended* full-casting. If someone wants to play a wizard, they're not going to have the same experience playing a 'replacement' class.

I.E. not fixed spell lists like Beguiler, Warmage, DN, Healer, etc.

[Lans]

I would use the Tome Fighter for the Fighter
Shadow Caster is T4
Paladin you can use the Crusader, or allow a feat rogue gestalt onto it.
Ranger has varients that boost it up
Shugenja is a T3 Cleric I believe
Incarnate is T3ish, and can also be used to represent a paladin
Swordsage covers monk
Psy Warror variant covers soulknife


I'm not sure on 'aura' classes, just throw them all together into 1 class and call it good.

[Godskook]

I think that a single tier is too thin a window. You miss out on some really good options that sit just outside it. For instance, there's not really a replacement for 'wizard' below tier 2, at least not that I've ever seen, but you can make do with a Psion fairly well. Anyway, here's what you did want:

Monk -> Tash Psychic Warrior, Unarmed Swordsage, Enlightened Fist(powered by whatever arcane class 'fits')

Fighter -> Warblade(Does there really need to be another alternative?)

Rogue -> Factotum(Maps almost perfectly, except for the being better part)

Paladin -> Crusader(Again, it just works)

Wizard -> Dread Necro, Beguiler, Blasty Sorc

[Curmudgeon]

The Mystic Ranger (in Dragon # 336, page 105) is a more spellcaster-focused version of the class, and should fit in pretty well.

[Coidzor]

The Mystic Ranger (in Dragon # 336, page 105) is a more spellcaster-focused version of the class, and should fit in pretty well.

Add Wildshaping from UA to it and you've got a handy little druid substitute (at least in terms of face-ripping off).

[mint]

Blasty wizard and blasty sorceror are not completely, completely different.
The wizard can get as many evocation spells per day as the sorceror but he is still focusing on getting fist-fulls of d6s and that still... isn't great.
It isn't that they will do awful damage and be strictly bad, I mean, it sounds like you are getting your war on. If that means fighting large groups, blasty casters will be kind of great.
Its that other classes will be doing fist-fulls of d6s, maybe not in an area from 400 yards away but probably more of them and they won't be using limited resources to do so.

The distinction between sorc and wiz becomes less meaningful when you limit your spells, since the biggest distinction is spells known.

[Kuma Kode]

Certain lower tier characters are down so low partly because they sorely lack non-combat skills. That means these classes get a bump in a combat-heavy game. That is something I hadn't considered.


Alternatively, you could implement point buy differences, partial gestalt, or another house rule solution recommended in the Tier thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) instead of simply banning the higher tiers. My players unanimously hate point-buy, so that won't go over well. Gestalt has caught my eye, and I'll look into more graceful means.


The main point is there is no real replacement for open-ended* full-casting. If someone wants to play a wizard, they're not going to have the same experience playing a 'replacement' class. I've thought more about what I want for this campaign, and I think I was aiming for lower magic without specifically stating it. Lack of open-ended spellcasting is okay, since specialized casters is something that appeals to me for this.


I think that a single tier is too thin a window. You miss out on some really good options that sit just outside it. For instance, there's not really a replacement for 'wizard' below tier 2, at least not that I've ever seen, but you can make do with a Psion fairly well. Anyway, here's what you did want: Yeah, I get what you're saying, but I think more specialized casters are something I want for this. I'll edit the original post to reflect this...


The Mystic Ranger (in Dragon # 336, page 105) is a more spellcaster-focused version of the class, and should fit in pretty well. Combined with the UA variant suggested, I'll look into this.


I mean, it sounds like you are getting your war on. Ayup. You're right, though... I mostly just posted for suggestions of classes that people like at a certain power level that I could sift through later. My original ideas were not particularly well-though-out.

Reading through the tier thread, I think I might just go with the spellcasting is hard gestalt vow thing. It seems neat and fits the lower magic war setting I want.

[true_shinken]

Mystic Ranger is definitely above Tier 3 if he gets Sword of the Arcane Order, at least for first 10 levels. Use with care.

[JaronK]

I actually played around with this idea by making a new set of 11 core classes to replace the old. Note this makes some use of T4 classes.

Wizard, Rogue -> Factotum
Druid -> Wild Shape Ranger (regular Ranger also available)
Sorcerer -> Warmage, Warlock, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer
Cleric, Paladin -> Crusader
Fighter, Barbarian -> Warblade
Ranger remains, but Wild Shape Ranger is allowed
Bard remains
Monk -> Unarmed Swordsage (regular Swordsage also available)
Binder added

So the new base classes are Factotum, Ranger (including Wild Shape Ranger), Warmage, Warlock, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage (including Unarmed variant), Bard, and Binder. You've got nice quick and easy translations of the old classes... obviously a Crusader or Wild Shape Ranger can't do everything a Cleric or Druid can, but we wouldn't expect a T3 class to completely duplicate a T1.

JaronK

[Greenish]

All of your players should be bards. Clearly.

[Kuma Kode]

All of your players should be bards. Clearly. We've gamed psychological horror, action/adventure, comedy, drama.... but there's one genre we haven't done.

Musicals.

*Players look on in horror as lightning flashes and the DM laughs maniacally.*

[JaronK]

All Bard parties are AMAZING. Get one of them with Inspire Awe, Requiem, and Haunting Melody who then goes into Dread Pirate or Scarlet Corsair and uses Imperious Command to make everyone nearby cower endlessly. Use a few kobolds with Dragonfire Inspiration and Masterwork War Drums to buff everyone like crazy, and have someone else using regular optimized Inspire Courage. Slaughter all before your might.

JaronK

[Zuljita]

Fighter, Barbarian -> Warblade
JaronK

Overall I like where you are going with this, my only issue it that the raging barbarian warrior is a fantasy trope that lots of people (meself included) are very attached to and IMO warblade doesnt simulate it well... and a moderately optimized barb keeps up okay in combat and can have 1 or 2 useful non combat skills (survival, Listen)

[Tael]

Overall I like where you are going with this, my only issue it that the raging barbarian warrior is a fantasy trope that lots of people (meself included) are very attached to and IMO warblade doesnt simulate it well... and a moderately optimized barb keeps up okay in combat and can have 1 or 2 useful non combat skills (survival, Listen)

Really? With the amount of rage you get at higher levels, raging is less a decision and more something that turns on every time you fight, ever. I find refluffing Punishing stance does the trick just fine (maybe homebrew some higher level versions of it), and as an added benefit, you can shout "CROOOOOOOOM!!!" and get your dramatic second wind. And Tiger Claw is everything the barbarian wishes he could have.

[Psyren]

Overall I like where you are going with this, my only issue it that the raging barbarian warrior is a fantasy trope that lots of people (meself included) are very attached to and IMO warblade doesnt simulate it well... and a moderately optimized barb keeps up okay in combat and can have 1 or 2 useful non combat skills (survival, Listen)

I tend to agree - none of the ToB classes really simulate a Barbarian well; the 9 disciplines are just that, disciplines, and while they aren't required to be lawful it still implies a finesse/control of style that the Barbarian doesn't really represent.

[JaronK]

Overall I like where you are going with this, my only issue it that the raging barbarian warrior is a fantasy trope that lots of people (meself included) are very attached to and IMO warblade doesnt simulate it well... and a moderately optimized barb keeps up okay in combat and can have 1 or 2 useful non combat skills (survival, Listen)

Rock the Iron Heart and Tiger Claw maneuvers, and they make surprisingly good Barbarians. You just go berserk and bounce around the battlefield hacking fools up. Admittedly, Barbarian would absolutely be able to hang out with this crowd, I just wanted to keep it at 11 classes.

JaronK

[Roc Ness]

Lots of the Playground Homebrew (Tier 3) listed in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9698040#post9698040).

You'll note that Gorgondantess' Paladin is already listed in there as a replacement Paladin, as you have too. It also lists replacements for a multitude of other classes.

Seriously, look at it. It has a replacement for practically everything, Ranger, Hexblade, Cleric, Swashbuckler, etc.

[Draz74]

As far as I'm concerned, if you take a Tier 2 class and ban a handful of its more cheesy options, it pretty much becomes Tier 3. Sorcerer with no Gate, Polymorph, Celerity, etc.? Pretty darn playable in a Tier 3 game.

Here's a version of -> Tier 3 conversions I've been known to recommend before:

Barbarian: play a Warblade with lots of Tiger Claw and Iron Heart, and no Diamond Mind.
Bard: eh, I've got some crazy alternatives that can be done with multiclassing if you happen to want to avoid Vancian casting in general, but Bard itself is actually very nicely balanced.
Cleric: play an Ardent with no Dominant Ideal or Mantle Substitution; or just play a Spontaneous variant Cleric and ban overpowered spells.
Druid: Totemist; take the Wild Cohort feat.
Fighter: any of the Tome of Battle classes can work for certain types, and there's always the Psychic Warrior option.
Monk: I'm personally more fond of the Tashalatora Psychic Warrior option here, but we all know the "standard" answer (and the one that doesn't involve multiclassing) is "Swordsage!"
Paladin: Crusader ...
Ranger: Actually tougher than any other class to replicate in Tier 3, without using homebrew or multiclassing (like Swift Hunter). Well, unless you like being a shapeshifter rather than a crafty warrior; then there's the Wildshape variant. But that feels more like a Druid than a Ranger, to me, and a very specific style or Druid even. Psychic Warrior can at least make a decent T3 archer, but it lacks nature skills. Hmmm, perhaps Psychic Rogue and Wilderness Rogue need a merger?
Rogue: Factotum ... with the option to multiclass Swordsage for the more stabby side.
Sorcerer: I'm terribly fond of Dragonfire Adepts for the "wild elementalist" type of Sorcerer. For the "creepy pactmaker" side, Binder is of course a solid T3 option, but I'm not too fond of it bookkeeping-wise. So I'd be tempted to homebrew again, to strengthen the Warlock just a tad. Or there's Wilder, I guess.
Wizard: Psion with its broken powers banned works, mostly. Or venture into homebrew again and pick up one of the fixed Truenamers.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

ToB has been mentioned, but I shall do so again...

Fighter -> Warblade
Paladin -> Crusader
Monk -> Swordsage

Barbarians can remain as Barbarians. Go with a Two-Handed Sword, aim straight for Shock Trooper and Frenzied Berserker, and never look back.

For the full casters, there's ways to break them down

Wiz/Sorc: What specialty do you want to be? Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necro are all very good classes which represent casting, but are not inherently broken. Warlock is also a good and viable alternative. Dragonfire Adept as well.

It's harder to find a good replacement for Cleric or Druid. For Cleric, you can go with Favored Soul, which hits it with a pretty good nerf-bat. There really aren't many good alternatives for Druid, but if you use the PhB II variant, they shrink back down to around tier 3, which is what you are wanting.

I homebrewed up a replacement for Bard, druid, Wiz/Sorc, and Cleric a long while back, on the Invocation-chassis which Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts use. Been a long while, and I didn't get any help with them, so they're rather unsupported.

[Coidzor]

We've gamed psychological horror, action/adventure, comedy, drama.... but there's one genre we haven't done.

Musicals.

*Players look on in horror as lightning flashes and the DM laughs maniacally.*

And then you can do all of those other things AS musicals. :smallamused:

[Fortuna]

As far as I'm concerned, if you take a Tier 2 class and ban a handful of its more cheesy options, it pretty much becomes Tier 3. Sorcerer with no Gate, Polymorph, Celerity, etc.? Pretty darn playable in a Tier 3 game.

But there's a lot of broken or near-broken tricks that a sorc can pull off. I think what you mean is that a T2 class, if the DM keeps an eye on it, is playable in T3 with little to no problem. On the other hand, it makes it easier for both players and the DM if you find reasonable out-of-the-box alternatives.

[JaronK]

I find nerfing T3s difficult, as removing their really good spells often results in them being far too weak. Finding the right balance point is pretty tough.

JaronK