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monkeysammich
2011-01-18, 03:47 PM
Okay, so this is like the third one of these I've made.... I apologize for that... But I just can't decide on a character.

The party:

Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian/Bear Warrior
Dwarf Rogue
Drow Warlock
Gnome Wizard/Master Specialist/Shadowcraft Mage

and then me... Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1

And while I don't anticipate dying.. I do draw a lot of aggro (down to 3 con last session after turning all of a dread wraiths little wraith underlings.)... mostly because I divine power, sacred shield and smack things around with power attack. I'm the secondary tank, pseudo-primary healer and secondary blaster (good wis and swift flamestrikes!)...

I always like having a good backup... and I want to try something "out of the norm" for me... something I havent played.

So I'm looking to you all, the masters of character creation, the wizards of whimsical decisions... to shed some light on some unique ideas for me.

Allowed Books: Core, Tome of Battle, Heroes of Battle, All Completes, All Races (no Eberron), Dragon Magic, Fiendish Codex I and II, Lords of Madness

Banned: All eberron and forgotten realms books, vile darkness, fiend folio, anything not mentioned previously

I'm looking at something different... I've been the cleric (3 times now... one cloistered, one archer and this one)... and I've been the Rogue once... (all in this campaign, its been going on for a few years... and we die. a lot.)

Looking at the party make up, there's 2 melee and 2 range. I'm the only "optimizer" among the group... they are usually moderately powerful, save for a new guy that is lagging behind but I'm trying to get him to make better decisions ;)

So nothing TOO crazy... and anything that is over the top I'll have to get DM approval (Dragonwrought Kobold aging was already turned down :D)

the clumsy bard
2011-01-18, 04:10 PM
Any race you had in mind?

Otherwise I might suggest human druid 11.

Suggesting the obvious wizard etc...

Why not try a 'windicator'

Aside from general stuff suggested what are somethings that happen fairly often in your campaign?

aka are undead common?
do you fight certain types alot etc?

monkeysammich
2011-01-18, 04:17 PM
Oh yeah, I was a Druid before the Cleric... He got "left in town" because our healer decided he hated being a cleric..

but i'm tired of "defaulting" to healer. Can a Crusader heal well enough for in combat healing?

As for things that happen a lot... its the Isle of Dread... so far, dinosaurs, pirates, Aboleths, troglodytes, drow, zombies and wraiths.

(oh my!)

Not too many outsiders yet.

Thoughts I had: Bard/Arcane Archer/Sublime Chord, Bard/Marshal/Crusader, Ranger/Horizon Walker, Sorcerer/Elemental Savant...

Like I said... I cant decide.

Bang!
2011-01-18, 04:19 PM
Gnome Druid. Specialize in moles. Make obnoxious stretches for mole puns. It'd be rad.

EDIT:
Oh, you already druided.

Play a Sorcerer. Pretend to be a crummy rogue. Then, when **** gets real, unleash some ridiculous metamagiced ray of stupidity/enervation/whatever craziness.

Reynard
2011-01-18, 04:22 PM
Oh yeah, I was a Druid before the Cleric... He got "left in town" because our healer decided he hated being a cleric..

but i'm tired of "defaulting" to healer. Can a Crusader heal well enough for in combat healing?

Not really, but then Clerics can't really do well enough either. Tell them to get a Healing Belt and suck it up.

monkeysammich
2011-01-18, 04:23 PM
Not really, but then Clerics can't really do well enough either. Tell them to get a Healing Belt and suck it up.

That's the plan. I gave the warlock and the rogue wands of cure. I don't cast cure in combat.

nedz
2011-01-18, 04:28 PM
If you like optimising, and everyone else doesn't, then try a low tier class and OP it up as a challange ?
It also sounds like your bored of being the Healbot, so try something else ?
You really have to focus a bit on what you want - if you want useful advice that is.

the clumsy bard
2011-01-18, 04:29 PM
Don't do elemental savant

It's cool flavorwise, but too many things become immune to energy types the higher you go.

Bard's can surprisingly be decent if you want though.

The question is do you want to focus on dishing out the pain or supporting the rest of the party in bardic music fashion / spells etc?

I'd suggest taking a look at the following links

inspire courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

Bard handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook)

or even the war weaver handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867778/The_War_Weaver_Guidebook) they are lots of fun.

the clumsy bard
2011-01-18, 04:51 PM
Bardblade are also fun to play

Take the feat song of the white raven, then have fun with inspire courage.

Get yourself some bard friendly boosting items

slippers of battledancing etc

take snowflake wardance if you are having trouble hitting things

dragonfire inspiration is also great replaces each +1 from inspire courage with a +1d6 to your damage(fire, cold, acid, sonic etc... depending on heritage) and your allies damage. If you take seeker of the song long enough you can have 2 songs and get either double dragon inspiration or double boosts from courage etc...

Things can be done with bard, just throwing ideas at you.

monkeysammich
2011-01-18, 04:53 PM
I think I like the idea of a bard. I haven't played one in a long time...

Bard Ideas! Go! (on top of what has already been suggested, of course :P)

the clumsy bard
2011-01-18, 04:55 PM
I can give you a few builds just how are your abilities determined?

point buy or roll them? (just asking because its always nice to include stats ;) )

Assuming ecl 11 right now?

monkeysammich
2011-01-18, 04:57 PM
ECL 11, 32 point buy. I'd like to try avoiding human if possible... just because... I can do better that stinky humans! :smallbiggrin:

the clumsy bard
2011-01-18, 04:58 PM
What about silverbrow humans?

basically some added stuff (dragonblood subtype) and same human benefits?

monkeysammich
2011-01-18, 05:29 PM
That might be acceptable ;)

monkeysammich
2011-01-18, 06:04 PM
Hmm... is a Bard/Crusader/Jade Pheonix Mage Possible? Maybe with a single sublime chord for the better spellcasting?

the clumsy bard
2011-01-19, 03:23 PM
Well there's a few ways to go if you are going to play a bard gish type character. I will give you 1 build that use gish like builds with the bard.

Fastest Singing Swordsman I've ever seen!

Bard 7 / Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Swiftblade 6 / Sacred Exorcist 2

Your choice for the last 2 levels but you can really put anything that you want. Even take the last level of swiftblade for the innervated speed or replace it with Abjurant Champion for fun. Can also take the sacred exorcist levels slightly earlier to qualify for divine metamagic etc... or anything else you want to fuel with turn attempts.

The build ends up with +16 BAB, +5 Fort, +11 Ref, +17 Will

Numerous tasty abilities ex: hit me if you can! (50% mischance on attacks and spells)
8th level spells with Sublime Chord
3rd level spells with Bard
4 attacks at level 20
Lots of skills

Choose a race with a nice bonus to charisma (not that many, but hey if you can find one take it)
Only ones that come to mind are Spellscales (blah... not a big fan of con penalties)
Silverbrow human
Draconic Creature (human or something else flavorful... can go to town, but only recommend if level adjustment buy off is allowed)

Assuming Silverbrow Human with the aforementioned build.

1 - Expeditious Dodge, Mobility (Both needed for Swiftblade)
3 - Melodic Casting (Complete Mage)
6 - Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic)
9 - Words of Creation (Book exalted Deeds)
12 - Lingering Song (complete Adventurer)
15 - Arcane Strike (complete warrior)
18 - Power Attack (or another feat like snowflake wardance from frostburn)

Wield a long sword in 2 hands and go to town basically or 1 hand and use items/ snowflake wardance to ensure hits.

Grab the following items to really shine. (at the current level of 11 they are all available by your standard wealth by character wealth)

Crystal Echoblade (MIC 49) - half bard level as sonic damage on attacks.
Slippers of Battledancing (DMG2 - 272) - swaps cha in for to hit and dmg instead of str. also adds nice initiative bonus and movement bonus
Vest of legends (DMG2 - 272) - bard level is 5 higher for bard songs etc. also adds bonus to diplomacy and perform rolls.
Badge of valor (MIC 202) - +1 on current inspire courage
Masterwork natural horn (Song and Silence 46) - +1 accuracy and damage, -2 fear saves.
Belt of battle (MIC) - If you don't know this smash your head onto the desk and or table in front of you.
Assuming a minimum of 24 charisma (base 18 with bonus 4 from a cloak of charisma +4 and two +1(s) from level 4 and level 8)

By level 11 (I am assuming by the monkeysammich's replies.

The character should be Bard 7/ Swiftblade 4 (4th level of swiftblade provides no +1 to arcane casting and the abilities trump gaining the spells with the sublime chord)

BAB of +9/+4 FORT +3, REF +9, WILL +9

On a normal day you can activate the inspire courage ability on the first round, but with the belt of battle you can have more fun. (Not necessary later when you can get more actions with class abilities related to haste)

In this case here is the first turn death of most... again most :smalltongue:

Win initiative (more then likely with a high dex and your charisma bonus added (+7)

Action 1: Activate belt of battle (swift action) for an extra full round action.

Action 2: Cast Haste as a free action

Action 3: Commence singing inspire courage.

Inspire courage can now be used in one of two ways.

Stacking the effects as follows:

Bard level 7 + "5 levels" from vest of legends = effective bard level of 12, which grants a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +2 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.

+

(Immediate action) Use of badge of valor to increase bonus by + 1

+

Masterwork natural horn (+1 to attack and damage -2 to fear effects)

+

Inspirational Boost (level 1 bard spell from Spell compendium) another +1 (cast as a swift action, which is ok as its part of the extra full action from the belt of battle)

=

+5 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Take the +5 and times it by 2 because of words of creation.

Now you have a +10 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Action 4: Use remaining move action to move up to intended target (movement of 80 ft)

Action 5(a): Full round attack against target

Assuming only crystal echoblade (+1 longsword)

You can make 3 attacks at +29/+29/+24

Assuming all attacks hit the damage would be (1d8+21) x 3

Action 5(b): Full round attack against target activating dragonfire inspiration instead of inspire competence.

3 Attacks at +19/+19/+14

Assuming all attacks hit the damage would be (1d8+11+10d6 fire +1d6 from surge) x 3

So doing a minimum of 69-255

Keld Denar
2011-01-19, 05:29 PM
There is a Paladin ACF in Champions of Valor that gets Inspire Courage at 1st level. If you can beg/bribe/sleepwith your DM to count that as "Bardic Music", you can build a fairly nice archer on this stub:

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/ArcaneArcher2/SublimeChord2/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist3

Possibly swapping things around a bit to try to get SacEx1 a bit earlier to pick up Turn Undead to power Divine Might because shooting Cha powered arrows at people is a good way to win friends and kill people.

You'll need a decent Int to get the skill points for Sublime Chord, and you'll need some kind of spell level booster (I suggest Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell) to get "3rd level spells" to get into Sublime Chord.

Other than that, very Cha-er-riffic. Do mean things to people by duct taping your high level Sublime Chord spells to your arrows and stappling them to people. AMF is a sexy killer here. You can get +Cha to saves, damage, spellcasting (twice) and any Cha based skills you have.

Doesn't really get off the ground until about level 10, but if you are planning a backup character, this guy could be pretty fun. By no means gimp at low levels though.

Another Cha build to beat people up with would be NaenHoon Illumian Paladin4/Duskblade2/SuelArcanamach1/AbjChampion5/Spellsword1/Suel+3/DragonDisciple4
Pally of Freedom would probably be better, if you don't want to keep playing lawful.

Suel gets you 5th level casting from Illusion, Transmutation, Abjuration, and Divination. NaenHoon gives you a DMM-lite ability that isn't restricted to divine spells. Take Persist Spell and Persist Wraithstrike and Greater Mirror Image and you'll be a monster. Unlike a DMM Persist Cleric, your CL to resist dispels will be SKY HIGH, due to the way you stack Martial Caster + Practiced Spellcaster + Tenacious Spells + Ring of Enduring Arcana. You'll be CL30 vs dispels, meaning a DC41 CL check to dispel you. It'll take a REALLY dedicated caster to even hope to dispel you, and he'll still need a high roll. Get some other nice Transmutations like Whirling Blade and Bite of the Werewolf and even Lightning Leap for a short range teleport, and you'll be a gish-in-a-box monster.

monkeysammich
2011-01-19, 09:52 PM
Both of those are quite nice. Very synergystic....

66,000 gold to start with... those slippers are just over 33k... cost prohibitive... but possibly worth it for all they do

the clumsy bard
2011-01-19, 11:38 PM
True, it is a little on the expensive side, but I would recommend getting t otherwise it all depends on how much wealth your dm seems to drop in your game.

The idea with the build is more about the fun the character is. While effective it isn't as game breaking as some other things. Don't get me wrong though, if you play it right it can be scary... recall the bonus from Inspire courage doesn't only apply to you :smallcool:

Its a mix of optimization as well... bard??? effective??? wait what's going on here?

I love bards don't get me wrong, but its always nice to see them be crazy and fun.

monkeysammich
2011-01-20, 09:39 AM
Hmm, the bard handbooks don't really go into spell selection very much (or I cant find one that is anyway)

What are good spells for a Bard/Gish

Inspirational Boost... of course... but what else? :)

Starbuck_II
2011-01-20, 09:56 AM
Dragonfire Adept can be loads of fun I hear (have yet to play one yet though). Get Entangling Exhaustation feat from Races of the dragon.
That way you can entangle foes with your breath for 1d4 rounds.

Have you tried that type of class yet?

monkeysammich
2011-01-20, 09:59 AM
Ive looked at DFA. I've never played one though. You got a handbook or thread to throw at me that I can browse? :smallsmile:

Frog Dragon
2011-01-20, 10:01 AM
The Sorcerer/Elemental Savant could work if you pick [Fire] and then take a level (or two) of Sanctified One of Kord.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-20, 10:06 AM
Ive looked at DFA. I've never played one though. You got a handbook or thread to throw at me that I can browse? :smallsmile:

Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!)
Seriously, you can find a handbook for pretty much any class by just googling "<insert class here> handbook"

Starbuck_II
2011-01-20, 10:07 AM
Ive looked at DFA. I've never played one though. You got a handbook or thread to throw at me that I can browse? :smallsmile:

I have two of them:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!

http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!

monkeysammich
2011-01-20, 10:16 AM
Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!)
Seriously, you can find a handbook for pretty much any class by just googling "<insert class here> handbook"

I have bad google luck. I'll search for the handbook and pull up the half-complete version, or one that is just flat out wrong. Not sure why. google hates me.

Coidzor
2011-01-20, 10:29 AM
Hmm, the bard handbooks don't really go into spell selection very much (or I cant find one that is anyway)

What are good spells for a Bard/Gish

Inspirational Boost... of course... but what else? :)

Bladesong (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010126a)or its 3.5 RAI(but not RAW) update in the Spell Compendium (I think). Adds some debuffing in to the mix of your hitting people with sharp metal bits.

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-20, 10:46 AM
1st
Improvisation: Gives you a ton of luck points you can use as luck bonuses on attack rolls and skill checks, scales with your caster level. (Spell Compendium)
Immediate Assistance: Lets an ally reroll a skill check. (Complete Mage)

2nd
Harmonize: You start bardic music as a move action. (Races of Stone).
Elation: +2 morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity. (Book of Exalted Deeds)

3rd
Glibness
Haste

4th
Celerity (Player's Handbook II)
Dimension Door
Ruin Delver's Fortune: Bonus to will, fort, or reflex save equal to your charisma mod. (Spell Compendium)
Sirine's Grace: Deflection bonus to AC equal to your charisma mod, +8 bonus to perform. (Spell Compendium)

5th
Greater Dispel Magic
Greater Heroism
Mass Suggestion

6th
Empyreal Ecstacy: Allies take half damage from melee and ranged attacks, immune to mind-affecting effects but not those effects already in place (cast this AFTER inspire courage). (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Nixie's Grace: +8 charisma, +6 dexterity, +2 wisdom enhancement bonuses (Spell Compendium)
Superior Resistance: +6 resistance bonus to saves (Spell Compendium)

Noneoyabizzness
2011-01-20, 11:18 AM
druid3/bard2/combat medic5/Fochlucan lyrist1

monkeysammich
2011-01-24, 09:37 AM
Okay, so my cleric bit the big one in yesterday's game session... (engulfed by a huge ochre jelly, then the warlock decided to fire into the grapple... and managed to hit me for a good chunk of damage.)

So I decided to kind of merge the bardic ideas presented along with my thought of the Tob Gish....

I'm coming in at 12th level (we leveled before i died... :P)

Bard 6/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Sublime Chord 2

Silverbrow Human

Feats: Song of the Heart, Extra Music, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the White Raven, Versatile Spellcaster and Snowflake Wardance

Spells I've picked so far...

Level 1: Inspirational Boost, Improvisation
Level 2: Glitterdust
Level 3: Haste
Level 4: Wings of Flurry, Greater Mirror Image
Level 5: Cacaphonic Burst, Prismatic Ray

Maneuvers (this is where I need the most help!)

If my calculations are correct... I should be Initiator level 8.. with 5 maneuvers known from Crusader, 1 maneuver known from JPM, 5 readied with 2 granted... and 2 Stances (plus the mystic phoenix stance)

I've picked Revitalizing Strike, Divine Surge (from the extra one from JPM)... and Martial Stance.

I got told I am allowed to play a crusader, but no White Raven Tactics... also not allowed the Celerity line of spells. The DM is pretty lenient, but the things he does ban... he bans them for his baddies as well. He told me I can have celerity... if the bad guys can have it too. :P

So... go!