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View Full Version : A la carte Crippling Strike or Improved Evasion



ffone
2011-01-18, 04:52 PM
For a sneak attacking character without many rogue levels (a Daring Outlaw feat Swashbuckler, various PrCS, etc.) who progresses into epic, there are a number of epic feats which have various rogue special abilities as prereqs (crippling strike for Lingering Damage, improved evasion for Self-Concealment, slippery mind for Dextrous Will/Fortitude, opportunist for Sneak Attack of Opportunity).

Are there some alternate or more a la carte way of getting some of the rogue special abilities - items, early in certain PrCs, etc? For example, Swashbuckler gets slippery mind at 17th, so a Rogue-4 Swashbuckler-17 would have it at 21st anyway.

Lists of Stuff is pretty awesome for this type of query, but almost all the answers are deep into PrCS (which may have otherwise undesirable prereqs or abilities) - ideally looking for a la carte things like items (like the Ring of Evasion but for 'improved') or feats.

Grelna the Blue
2011-01-18, 05:16 PM
Not exactly what you're asking about, but depending on what the Swashbuckler is multiclassed with, you might be able to reduce the MAD a little by taking the Insightful Reflexes (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Insightful_Reflexes) feat. My necromancer11/rogue2 is horribly, awfully, unoptimized in most ways (deliberately), but with Insightful Reflexes, a +1 luck bonus from item, and a daily casting of Superior Resistance, her Reflex save bonus is +21. She usually has to roll a 1 to fail an evasion save. Occasionally she has to beat a 2.

Waker
2011-01-18, 09:03 PM
Shadowdancer from the DMG gets Slippery Mind, Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion on top of their own unique class abilities.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-18, 09:20 PM
Contemplative (Complete Divine, page 30) can be entered with 1st level divine spellcasting and 13 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) (so level 11+), and provides the Slippery Mind class feature at level 2. (Level 1 gives a bonus domain.) That's the right route for a divine spellcaster or a martial character benefiting from Education and Knowledge Devotion (with a spellcaster dip if not starting as a Ranger or similar class).

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-19, 01:35 AM
Thief Acrobat has Defensive Roll, along with some other stuff(and the ever useful Kip-up, for use in conjunction with that Dive For Cover Feat which renders you prone in exchange for damage negation or something).

ffone
2011-01-19, 03:53 AM
Not exactly what you're asking about, but depending on what the Swashbuckler is multiclassed with, you might be able to reduce the MAD a little by taking the Insightful Reflexes (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Insightful_Reflexes) feat. My necromancer11/rogue2 is horribly, awfully, unoptimized in most ways (deliberately), but with Insightful Reflexes, a +1 luck bonus from item, and a daily casting of Superior Resistance, her Reflex save bonus is +21. She usually has to roll a 1 to fail an evasion save. Occasionally she has to beat a 2.

Trying to Int-SAD a rogue or swash is an interesting idea, but it still has Dex for its Weapon Finesse, initiative (important for sneak attacking flat-footed foes), AC and Tumble (a Swash has fewer other good Dex skills than a Rogue.) I would at least want Int-to-attack to try it.

I can see the rationale for your mostly-spellcaster character, but for a daring outlaw I'd sooner forego Int than Dex. Insightful Strike is cool but it's still mostly sneak attack driving the damage, and I actually find the skill points form Int less useful for a Swash than most classes (they have 4 + Int skill points but not that many great skills, at least not in a high level campaign where Balance/Climb/Jump all get replaced by Spider Climb, Fly, or Air Walk magic).



Shadowdancer from the DMG gets Slippery Mind, Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion on top of their own unique class abilities.

That's a good class for special qualities like that...hate the prereqs for it and wonder if there's a way to give it a sneak attack progression.



Thief Acrobat has Defensive Roll, along with some other stuff(and the ever useful Kip-up, for use in conjunction with that Dive For Cover Feat which renders you prone in exchange for damage negation or something).

Dive for Cover and Dextrous Will / Fort seems like a nice combination (although you might only be able to substitute one of the two saves.0

TroubleBrewing
2011-01-19, 05:40 AM
For INT to attack, try http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732. Always a handy bookmark. :smallsmile:

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-19, 07:28 AM
So yeah, looking over the Thief Acrobat, it's easily more than worth the 5 Rogue levels you're replacing. In those 5 levels, you're getting Improved Evasion, 2 uses of Defensive Roll, and Skill Mastery. That's 4 Special Abilities. To get the same effect, you would need Rogue 10, 13, 16, 19. Or a total of 10 levels. In exchange for giving up +3 to Trap Sense(MOST USELESS CLASS FEATURE EVER!), and 5d6 of Sneak Attack(okay, this one is marginally painful to give up), you get double the rate of progression on Special Abilities, a little more Dodge AC, various improvements to the usage of Climb/Balance/Tumble, including charging over rough terrain, Slow Fall(not that grand, but at least you didn't sink levels into Monk), and of course, Kip-up.

Dive For Cover is basically "Roll Reflex saves again. You are prone after that."

ffone
2011-01-19, 02:33 PM
For INT to attack, try http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732. Always a handy bookmark. :smallsmile:

Doesn't have attack. And anyway, a non-wizardly rogue character like the one mentioned above is so Dex based to begin with (Finesse and ranged attack, Reflex saves with Evasion to double the importance, AC and touch AC, initiative, some of the most important skills) I don't see a lot of incentive to try to SAD it on some other stat.

(But in general X-to-Y is one of the best CO links, thanks).

TroubleBrewing
2011-01-19, 03:14 PM
Factotum 1 gets INT to attack. Admittedly, you need to spend an inspiration point, but they recharge every encounter. Also, if ToB stuff is allowed, you can go for Eternal Blade. All you need is 1 level, and you get INT to attack AND damage.