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Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 05:54 PM
A friend wants to play a Dragon based character in a SRD/Core game (no psionics either, new DM [which isn't me!]) and asked me to help make a build for it.

So far what I have been working on goes: Bard 5, Dragon Disciple 10, Bard 5. Pretty basic and is based around using the natural weapons of the DD.

Stats:
Str:18 (Goes up to 26 from the +8 from DD)
Dex:12
Con:14 (Goes up +2 from DD to 16)
Int:8 (Goes up +2 from DD)
Wisdom:8
Charisma:14 (Goes up to 16 from +2 from DD)

Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Natural Attack~Claws



Results in 1d6+9 Claws at level 15, and permanent flight and some armor buffs. Gets a to-hit of about +15, and the single bite attack as a standard action. Doesn't get a lot of slots but it gets 10 level 2 spells known at level 15 that can be cast from spontaneously.

Any suggestions on how to make it better?

Urpriest
2011-01-18, 05:56 PM
Often this sort of build throws in some Barbarian levels. Even without variants, the Str boosts from rage can be quite handy, as can the higher BAB.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 06:00 PM
Often this sort of build throws in some Barbarian levels. Even without variants, the Str boosts from rage can be quite handy, as can the higher BAB.

That's a good point, debating wether the strength boost is better then the extra spell slots; he could go Bard 5/DD 10/Barbarian 5, but it loses both 3rd and 4th level slots. On the other hand they aren't going to piece much with that low of Charisma/CL.

Runestar
2011-01-18, 06:02 PM
One of my first characters was a bard1/barb1/bard+3/dragon disciple. Not too shabby in a core game (plus whatever free material we could cobble together online). Be sure to take extra rage (complete warrior) for more rages and practiced spellcaster (complete arcane) to improve the quality of your mirror images.

Wield a greatsword and forget about your claws.

Aldizog
2011-01-18, 06:17 PM
I wouldn't worry about the 20-level build, as this is a new DM. At what level is the game starting? At what level do you expect the majority of gaming to happen?

I'd recommend against barbarian, as you can't cast in a rage, nor can you use many magic items. I'm not a big fan of barbarian rage in general, though.

Rogue4/Sorc1 might be a good option given that you are limited to Core.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 06:22 PM
Hmmm...

Core doesn't give much love to Bards, most of that comes from other sources.

If you are wanting to play a 'I know what that is' build, either a Cloistered Cleric (SRD material, under variant classes), or a Wizard/Loremaster would work quite well to suit your purposes.

If you are wanting to be a guy who does a lot of party support and buffing, again, I'd suggest Cleric, who has the same BAB as a Bard, with a better spell selection to buff party with.

If you're wanting to be more of a 'skillmonkey', then Rogue is probably a better suggestion for you, since they also get Trapfinding and more skill points per level.

If you're wanting a character who can buff up, then wade into combat, then Sorcerer1/Barbarianx/Dragon Disciple would be better. Pick up Mage Armor and Shield, then go to town.

Now, you CAN use Inspire Courage while raging... so you can go Bard/Barbarian/DD quite readily.

Quite frankly, what are your hopes for this character? What do you envision him doing?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 06:27 PM
Starting at level 1; I'm the party Cleric and we have a Rogue. I think Bard is the best here because it gives him the ability to buff the party as well as hit things, and keeps him from being stupidly squishy.

I was thinking maybe having him pick up weapon proficiency with a reach weapon and then use the claws as back up weapons; he can full attack more often that way and isn't liable to get stung when they get in close quarters with him. The big advantage with the natural weapons is they have a higher to hit then iterative weapons, so they can power attack without worrying about missing on the third/fourth hit.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 06:36 PM
Starting at level 1; I'm the party Cleric and we have a Rogue. I think Bard is the best here because it gives him the ability to buff the party as well as hit things, and keeps him from being stupidly squishy.

I was thinking maybe having him pick up weapon proficiency with a reach weapon and then use the claws as back up weapons; he can full attack more often that way and isn't liable to get stung when they get in close quarters with him. The big advantage with the natural weapons is they have a higher to hit then iterative weapons, so they can power attack without worrying about missing on the third/fourth hit.

Longspears are simple weapons he already has proficiency in. d8, x3 crit, and a two-handed weapon, and can be set to receive a charge for double damage.

Also, I don't think natural weapons work the way you think they work. Unless you have Improved Multiattack, they work with one being a primary, and the rest taking a steep penalty.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 06:39 PM
Results in 1d6+9 Claws at level 15, and permanent flight and some armor buffs. Gets a to-hit of about +15, and the single bite attack as a standard action. Doesn't get a lot of slots but it gets 10 level 2 spells known at level 15 that can be cast from spontaneously.

Any suggestions on how to make it better?

The Draconic template gives the same or better claw weapons, along with other benefits, in exchange for +1 LA. It gives the dragonblood subtype, I believe, so that with the dragon wings feat, one gets flight as well. So that's the equivalent of a level (or less with LA buy-off) and a feat to get some stat boosts and a fair bit of what you said you wanted out of Dragon Disciple.

And how are you getting 1d6 claws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm#clawsandBite) from Dragon Disciple anyway? Relying on Enlarge Person?

Edit: Now, 1 level of dragon disciple with a cleverly chosen dragon type can be quite nifty along with Dragonfire Inspiration to get something other than fire for those extra d6s.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 06:41 PM
The Draconic template gives the same or better claw weapons, along with other benefits, in exchange for +1 LA. It gives the dragonblood subtype, I believe, so that with the dragon wings feat, one gets flight as well. So that's the equivalent of a level (or less with LA buy-off) and a feat to get some stat boosts and a fair bit of what you said you wanted out of Dragon Disciple.

And how are you getting 1d6 claws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm#clawsandBite) from Dragon Disciple anyway? Relying on Enlarge Person?

Core only, so he can't use that. But yea, it would be MUCH better for him.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 06:43 PM
The Draconic template gives the same or better claw weapons, along with other benefits, in exchange for +1 LA. It gives the dragonblood subtype, I believe, so that with the dragon wings feat, one gets flight as well. So that's the equivalent of a level (or less with LA buy-off) and a feat to get some stat boosts and a fair bit of what you said you wanted out of Dragon Disciple.

And how are you getting 1d6 claws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm#clawsandBite) from Dragon Disciple anyway? Relying on Enlarge Person?

In my original post I said I was using Improved Natural Attack, which advances the claws. Enlarge Person would actually make them better then that. I forgot to put multiattack in the feats area, but I am aware how natural attacks work.

Interesting; what is the ECL of the Dragonblooded type? There is no such core type! Trust me, if it were me I would just have him go DFA. But if Longspear is a simple weapon then that is probably were he is going.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 06:44 PM
Core only, so he can't use that. But yea, it would be MUCH better for him.

Oh. In that case. Don't take all of Dragon Disciple. 10 levels for +13 ECL is not good, especially if LA buyoff is not allowed or not allowed after the specified levels.

JellyPooga
2011-01-18, 06:45 PM
Spellcasting isn't going to be a forte of this build due to 10 levels of only getting "bonus spells". As such, I wouldn't bother with more than 4 levels of Bard and that only to get 2nd level spells. A 5th level of Bard gives redunancy in BAB and Base Saves (which are suffering enough in this build) and only gives you a couple of extra spells/day and known...not worth it.

On top of that, you'll need something butch; Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger is pretty much your choices. Here's some Pro's and Con's.

Barbarian:
Pro's - Rage is tasty, +2 to hit and damage is nothing to be sneezed at. Fast Movement might also save your life one day! If you take it to Level 2, you'll net Uncanny Dodge as well which is never a bad thing. Not-too-shabby skill points and d12 HD is nice too.
Con's - Rage is only 1/day. Depending on the rest of the group, this combined with a fairly limited number of spell/day means you may want to rest up more than others in the group. Can't cast spells in Rage. Not so much of a problem because the spells you'll be casting will be personal buffs: Mirror Image, Heroism and the like, which you can happily Rage on top of after the casting!

Fighter:
Pro's - Extra Feats are always nice. d10 HD make you 'ard.
Con's - Make those Feats count because it's all you're getting! Low skill points and naff else all. Medium and Heavy armour proficiency is redundant unless you invest in the Still Spell Feat for your casting.

Ranger:
Pro's - Favoured Enemy is nice if you're going up against a lot of the same creature. Combat Style at 2nd level could be useful, depending on your build. Tasty number of skill points and best Base Saves of the three.
Con's - only d8 HD.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 06:45 PM
In my original post I said I was using Improved Natural Attack, which advances the claws. Enlarge Person would actually make them better then that. I forgot to put multiattack in the feats area, but I am aware how natural attacks work.

Interesting; what is the ECL of the Dragonblooded type?

Dragonblooded doesn't have an inherent ECL, it's the draconic template which does.

Dragonblooded also turns on a lot of really cool feats from Dragon Magic, which you can't use. It's most ofen used to go into Dragonfire Inspiration, which lets you turn your morale bonus from Inspire Courage into d6's of fire damage (or other elemental type, depending on heretage choice)

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 06:49 PM
Or throw monk on top for an incomprehensible amount of misses! :P

Out of those Ranger and Barbarian look the most useful, as Ranger gives lots of skill points and Barbarian gets him rage. Hmmm, I should look into alternate classes.

Since he already has high Charisma (it could be higher then I have made it so far) what about levels in Paladin of Freedom? They tend to be front loaded, and I can only cram about 5 levels in anyways.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 07:50 PM
How well would using Thug Fighter as the BaB class work? It would net him Sneak Attack as well as a good HD.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 08:02 PM
How well would using Thug Fighter as the BaB class work? It would net him Sneak Attack as well as a good HD.

That's not what Thug fighter actually does. You're thinking of the Sneak Attack Fighter. Which people do like combining with Thug for the extra skillpoints at no real loss due to trading feats for SA dice.

Not as beneficial as some useful class features, less skills and 1 more hp on average than a ranger, but sneak attack dice are more fun when one has multiple weapons.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 08:09 PM
That's not what Thug fighter actually does. You're thinking of the Sneak Attack Fighter. Which people do like combining with Thug for the extra skillpoints at no real loss due to trading feats for SA dice.

Not as beneficial as some useful class features, less skills and 1 more hp on average than a ranger, but sneak attack dice are more fun when one has multiple weapons.

He gets 3 :P Or actually taking IUS would get him more, but they would be at a hefty to-hit penalty. He would get 3d6-4d6 SA, which is on top of Power Attack damage, which with hide he could do sometimes. It would probably be one big attack per encounter.

Coidzor
2011-01-18, 08:14 PM
He gets 3 :P Or actually taking IUS would get him more, but they would be at a hefty to-hit penalty. He would get 3d6-4d6 SA, which is on top of Power Attack damage, which with hide he could do sometimes. It would probably be one big attack per encounter.

You're overlooking armor spikes and that bards can wear light armor without interfering with their spellcasting. :smalltongue: So that's 4 w/out IUS, 5 with, and IUS + armor spikes would allow use of TWF in addition to the natural attacks for more sneak attack damage opportunities.

And a -2 to your natural weapon attacks is not really a "hefty" to-hit penalty.

Edit: what, does he not have any flanking buddies? If so, why the heck is he going this direction for the primary melee character?

Waker
2011-01-18, 08:51 PM
If you aren't too attached to the bard, you could toss Assassin in there to compensate for the spellcasting requirement. Ranger can qualify for it easy enough.
I've always liked the idea of being a draconic assassin.

true_shinken
2011-01-18, 09:00 PM
If you aren't too attached to the bard, you could toss Assassin in there to compensate for the spellcasting requirement. Ranger can qualify for it easy enough.
I've always liked the idea of being a draconic assassin.
The only problem with this build is that you should really take Dragon Disciple later. You want extra 4th level spells.
Ranger 6/Assassin 7/Dragon Disciple 7 looks decent for Core-only.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 10:37 PM
You're overlooking armor spikes and that bards can wear light armor without interfering with their spellcasting. :smalltongue: So that's 4 w/out IUS, 5 with, and IUS + armor spikes would allow use of TWF in addition to the natural attacks for more sneak attack damage opportunities.

And a -2 to your natural weapon attacks is not really a "hefty" to-hit penalty.

Edit: what, does he not have any flanking buddies? If so, why the heck is he going this direction for the primary melee character?

Well, he has me the combat Cleric, but as I said the character options I was given were essentially "Make a Dragon-man!" and my DM said "Only SRD, no Psionics" so everything else is up to me. Since he is still going to only be wearing light armor I figure SA Fighter nets him lots of extra damage. By the time we get to the level where he could get SA he might have his own ideas on what he wants, I'm just trying to build as many options as I can. But using a whole barrage of attacks to sneak attack with is pretty awesome :smallcool:

The reason I mentioned a pole-arm earlier was for AoO, as he has a higher Dex then most of us (not then the Rogue, but he seems to be most interested in ranged SA).

Another option I was thinking of adding to the pile was Bear Totem Barbarian, because Natural Weapons count as Light Weapons, except they get full Str to damage. So using the DD's massive strength boost the Bardbarian could grapple and then tear them apart with its NA. I would throw in Dragon Totem but the Barbarian level is going to be way too low for Frightful presence. Otherwise the fact that the DD gets high charisma would be awesome.

I'm thinking that a good race might be the Desert Halforc; they get +2 Con, -2 Int (dump stat) and get Barbarian as the favored class. Its better then a normal Halforc, and at gets a free feat to help balance against Human. Not a great feat, but Run can potentially be useful.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 11:06 PM
You want a dragon man? Half-Dragon template. +3 is a heck of a lot less painful than +10...

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 11:17 PM
That's true; I will run it by him. I still think the Desert Half-orc Bard5/Dragon Disciple 10/Sneak Attack Fighter 5 would have been cool.

dextercorvia
2011-01-18, 11:18 PM
because Natural Weapons count as Light Weapons, except they get full Str to damage.

Most of the time, secondaries get 1/2 strength. If you are optimizing for strength in the SRD, Water Orc is your best bet.

ericgrau
2011-01-18, 11:24 PM
10 lost caster levels are bad for a bard. Ya I'd try 3 if anything with the template. That puts you 1 point ahead on attack bonus. Then the 17 bard levels puts you 5 AB behind. So you're medium BAB melee with almost no bonus damage. You can get a little more AB, but it costs you a round. At least you can cast... but not at the same time as melee. So you're left as a horrible eldritch knight, casting only level 6 spells and at less BAB.

Typically dragon disciple is best for full BAB melee who dip a single level of a caster. In that situation the PrC is better than the template, b/c 3 lost levels of d12 HD, 2 good saves and medium BAB really hurt. I've run the stats both ways in core and DD was better IIRC. I think DD 7 (plus more fighter or barbarian) was better than DD 10 statswise though. I'd have to check to be sure.

Oh, and at level 15 he should be doing way more damage than that simply with a magic weapon.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-19, 12:13 AM
A level 15 Bard with a Strength of 18 and a +5 magic weapon does an average of 45 a turn if he hits with all of his attacks, a Fighter at that level with a +5 Greatsword does around 75 on a round where he hits with all of them (not including power attack) if I give him a +4 Ogre Strength and assume around 26 Strength. The build I posted does around 46 a turn without any objects at all and not taking into account either rage boost from Barbarian or Sneak Attack from SA Fighter (the two that I am caught between).

So it does the same as a normal Bard that throws itself into Strength would, and costs less. With a Giant's Strength Belt like the Fighter is wearing it goes to 54 average, and the lowest attack is at +20 to hit. It's not incredible, but it has an overall better to-hit then the Fighter does. Which means it can Power Attack more deeply, say subtracting 5 from to hit so it has a +15 and adding 5 to damage on each of its hits, which amounts to +30 damage for around 84 damage on a full round attack, assuming its 6 attacks all connect (Claw, Claw, UAS, UAS, Bite, Armor Spikes). If we remove a similar amount of to hit from the Fighter its lowest attack of three drops from +18 to +13, removing the exact amount of to hit he gained from his +5 magic weapon. He then gets an extra +30 from using a two handed weapon, so his damage is 105. The DD does around 80% of the same damage at level 18 with less costs involved.

Assuming they use the same amount of wealth then the 50,000 for the +5 weapon amounts to a +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists (3,000 GP difference) which adds up to around 90 damage on a full attack with Power Attack. So there is a 15 damage difference between it and a Fighter of the same level. Again, this ignores the 54 average sneak attack damage it would get from hitting something from behind if it went SA Fighter (+3d6 per attack) or the extra +4 to strength it would get from a Barbarian Rage (which amounts to less extra damage but useful all the time).


Now you can check my math on all of that if you want, but essentially the damage difference between it and a PA Fighter is negligible. A PA Barbarian would have more then the Fighter, but then I have to add the Rage or SA to the DD's attack. Overall it seems fairly normal for a melee character to me, and it gets some crappy casting the throw on top :P

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 12:16 AM
You'll do more with d6 enchantments though. The fighter also has greater weapon focus while the barbarian has rage.

A level 15 fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888663&postcount=15) should be doing 29 damage per hit at +25/+25/+20/+15. That's with a +1 weapon and d6 damage enchantments; I dunno how you got +20. Average CR 13 monster (4 of them = EL 17 encounter) AC is 27 so you don't want to power attack below a +26 AB against the average foe, or your damage per round will go down. Generally core PA is good for saving for below average AC and forum bragging :P. Dropping your AB from +20 to even lower OTOH at that level is a horrible thing to do.

EDIT: 91 damage per round against AC 27 for the above. With sword and board. THF gets about 15 more, and maybe 0-4 more than that with a more reasonable power attack that'll actually hit. A +15 AB OTOH would only hit on 45% of his attacks. Build here in case you're curious: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20 . Nothing special about it at all, no tricks, only a bit of +X item optimization. Heck a fighter / dragon disciple would be better.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 12:19 AM
You'll do more with d6 enchantments though. The fighter also has greater weapon focus while the barbarian has rage.

And you have Inspire Courage... granted, you can't get as silly with it as you could if you were allowed to get out of Core, but still... every point of attack can be another point of power attack.

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 12:31 AM
Well at bard 5 that's a +1, and actually a waste of a combat round if he doesn't get a buffing round in advance. Ya, another reason to use the template if you must play a dragony bard. It's still suboptimal but I think it'd be playable. And give him a magic weapon. I suppose you can still bite. Oh and if you really like flying at level 15 he can barely afford a cape of flying, though at 1/4 his wealth it's a bit expensive. Winged boots are a budget item he might try in the meantime, though spending that action to activate hurts - meaning optimally they'd be saved until really needed or when given a buffing round - and boots of speed are better unless the bard likes to haste the party anyway. Man, another reason for the template and more bard levels. Add some heroism and so on for the whole party and maybe the build isn't actually suboptimal.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-19, 01:10 AM
Spoiler is mostly just math stuff, if you feel you can trust me then skip it.I have absolutely no idea how that table was invented, but I went off of BaB+Str Bonus+Weapon. The attack bonus of the fighter based on BaB is +15/+10/+5, and giving him a strength of 25 (18+3+4 from the Ogre Power belt, you get +22/+17+12, which is lower then the chart. If you add a +5 weapon you get +27/+22/+17, which is still lower then the attack bonus set down by the table. Furthermore the table seems to assume you have 4 attacks at level 15, which you do not. You get a fourth attack at level 16 though, at a massive 13. So at level 16 you would get +28/+23/+18/+13, which includes a +5 weapon and +4 to strength from an item. Now boosting that with a +6 strength item instead gets you about where the chart is at level 16, but the chart is flat wrong about the BaB.


EDIT:Okay, I see what happened here. The chart assumes you get extra attacks everytime the BaB hits 6, but it doesn't, the secondary bonuses don't count towards number of hits. You get an extra swing at +6, +11, and +16 according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm). As far as I can tell you get 1 extra at each of those points. So you have a maximum of 4 hits at levels 16-20, and gain a 5th hit at level 21.

Anyway, back on topic, the BaB of the DD build I am working on is 10 at level 15, with a strength of (26+2+4) which adds to 21, with +3 from the Amulet adding up to +24. So the highest BaB is 3 lower then the Fighters at this level (assuming I went Bard 5/DD 10 as opposed to Bard1/Barbarian 4/DD10 which gets a to hit of 25, so its hardly noticeable at this level). The Secondary Natural Weapons get to hit at -2 (Multiattack) so you have +24/+22/+22, which is better overall then the Fighters. Now we add Unarmed Strikes, which are still as far as I can tell at +22, so we get +24/+22/+22/+22/. They may however be at a further -2, which would make it +24/+22/+22/+20/+20 and then the armor spikes at +20. So other then the first hit it gets a much higher to hit then the fighter.

Damage is a different beast, but basically you get 2d6+7 for the Fighters attack without PA, which is an attack of 13, and if your correct and anything below 20 won't hit on average then you get 22 damage a round. The build I posited gets 1d6+11, which is an attack of 14 at hit. It gets two of its iterative at the same level as the Fighters best iterative, so it gets around 31 (since strength damage halves on iteratives).

Now, if we assume that you need over a 25 to hit, yes the build is weaker the the Fighter, since the Fighter can manage to get a single hit in.

Aha! I now understand where the extra to-hit was coming from, a THW gets 1.5X Strength Bonus. Which means he gets a to hit of +30/+25/+20 and an average attack of 2d6+10, amounting to 29-32 damage a turn. Well played chart, you did your homework. However that still puts the Fighter at almost exactly the same as the Bard/DD.

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 01:17 AM
I thought you couldn't unarmed strike attacks and natural attacks during the same full attack, unless I'm missing some obscure rule. Also, yeah, a magic weapon gives 29 average damage or around 35ish with THF. If you want to assume lower damage from a +5 weapon then his AB is also 4 points higher, and he probably PAs that into +6 to +8 damage, though that's the slightly less effective way to do it.

EDIT: Ah, here we go, 2/3 of the way down, "Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons" (not to be confused with a similar heading 1/10th of the way down): http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a. You can go half and half but you can't double up on them.

Natural attacks or no at least consider half-dragon over DD for the bard casting.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-19, 01:27 AM
They can (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) in fact use Unarmed Strike with Natural Attacks, and in fact could use them as the primary weapon if they wanted to. I was slightly off in my usage, but it doesn't matter sense the damage I put down was only from the Natural Attacks, I merely posted the to hit for the unarmed strikes. So yes, a THF gets 35 a round, and as I have shown, so too does the DD I built. I ditched the weapon enhancement bonuses to damage on both of them, but it amount to +9 for the DD and +10 for the Fighter. That means that my total of 31 for hits with the top 3 attacks (+24/+22/+22) goes up to 40, and the Fighter goes up to around 42 with a +5 greatsword and two hits.

Anyways, I agree that the Bard will be better off without the DD class, I just don't agree that the Fighter does more damage. Mathematically he doesn't.

Edit: Swordsaged!

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 01:31 AM
+1 holy shocking weapon (32,000 gp) vs +2 amulet of the mighty fists (24,000 gp, +3 is 54,000 gp) is how he hits ~35 average damage. Or I suppose I might take spell storing or merciful or etc. over shocking, but that gets more complicated. EDIT: And I think the half-dragon bard could get the same or more damage but with less AB, hence the recommendation for a weapon.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-19, 01:36 AM
The Bard casts Glitterdust! :P Your puny 5 in will cannot save you Fighter!

Also, I have Mirror Image on, so there!

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 01:40 AM
+11 will and blind fight :smalltongue:. But back on track I was only talking about damage. Yeah I was already thinking the casting may mean the build is not actually suboptimal. Give it a shot.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-19, 01:42 AM
If he doesn't then I will; I have spent far too much time working on this to give it up lol. Thanks for working with me on it BTW, I know more about core melee now then I had ever thought about before lol.

~The irony here was that I spent the better part of two hours working over a build that's roughly equivalent to and maybe slightly better to the Fighter, a class famous for not being very useful. :(

Coidzor
2011-01-19, 06:38 AM
You want a dragon man? Half-Dragon template. +3 is a heck of a lot less painful than +10...

+13, rather, because Dragon Disciple doesn't say it does away with the LA of HAlf-Dragon.

Unless you're required to take a PRC all the way, you shouldn't do that. And if you are required to take PRCs all the way, Dragon Disciple is not the one to take.


I'm just trying to build as many options as I can.

Having Dragon Disciple 10 as a requirement for all of them is not as many options as you can build. :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2011-01-19, 06:58 AM
+13, rather, because Dragon Disciple doesn't say it does away with the LA of HAlf-Dragon.

This is obviously not intended. It's there with bucket healing and monks not proficient with fists.

Coidzor
2011-01-19, 07:03 AM
This is obviously not intended. It's there with bucket healing and monks not proficient with fists.

With a DM who plays without LA buy-off, I'm not even going to assume anything about their interpretation of intent.

And I would disagree about the obviousness of it, since WOTC has had a rather inconsistent track record in regards to templates from classes.

true_shinken
2011-01-19, 07:41 AM
And I would disagree about the obviousness of it, since WOTC has had a rather inconsistent track record in regards to templates from classes.
So you really think Dragon Disciple was intended to be a complete trap, no questions asked? "Fool! You'll never level up again!"

Coidzor
2011-01-19, 07:44 AM
So you really think Dragon Disciple was intended to be a complete trap, no questions asked? "Fool! You'll never level up again!"

I think it was designed to be finished at around level 17-18, yeah. Which with the LA would put them at or just above the Epic cutoff.

And it wouldn't be the only class designed to be a complete trap.

Runestar
2011-01-19, 07:48 AM
Fortunately, this has already been sufficiently addressed in the FAQ.


One of my players plays a half-celestial sorcerer, and he wants to take the dragon disciple prestige class. What happens to his character’s creature type when he reaches the 10th level of dragon disciple? Is he still an outsider (from his template), is he a dragon, is he both, or is he something else? Should he gain a level adjustment from becoming a half-dragon?

A creature can have only one type (although some templates retain a creature’s original type as an “augmented” subtype). The dragon disciple prestige class has no limitations on the character’s type other than “can’t be dragon,” so it’s perfectly acceptable for a half-celestial character (or any other outsider who qualifies) to take levels in the class.

At 10th level, the character’s type would normally change to dragon.
According to page 143 of Savage Species, the outsider type applied by the half-celestial template overrides the dragon type applied by the prestige class, so the character’s type would remain outsider. The character still gains all the class features of the dragon disciple prestige class though, so this is mostly just an issue of nomenclature.

A dragon disciple ignores the normal level adjustment applied from the half-dragon template; in effect, he’s already “paid” for the template through the 10 levels of his prestige class. This is true of any prestige class that applies a template or otherwise changes the character’s type or subtype.

JellyPooga
2011-01-19, 08:04 AM
+13, rather, because Dragon Disciple doesn't say it does away with the LA of HAlf-Dragon.

I could argue that if you're taking that as an argument, that when you reach level 10 of Dragon Disciple you gain the FULL Half-Dragon template, because it doesn't say that the Class Features that you have accrued so far are included in the template. This would mean that in total, you'd effectively get double the bonuses of the Half-Dragon template (+16 Str, +4 Con, etc.) from the Dragon Disciple PrC.

true_shinken
2011-01-19, 08:09 AM
And it wouldn't be the only class designed to be a complete trap.
No class is designed to be a trap. Anyway, agree to disagree.

Coidzor
2011-01-19, 08:11 AM
I could argue that if you're taking that as an argument, that when you reach level 10 of Dragon Disciple you gain the FULL Half-Dragon template, because it doesn't say that the Class Features that you have accrued so far are included in the template. This would mean that in total, you'd effectively get double the bonuses of the Half-Dragon template (+16 Str, +4 Con, etc.) from the Dragon Disciple PrC.

Yes, I was assuming that was the case as well. I still wouldn't think it worth the investment.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 08:29 AM
+13, rather, because Dragon Disciple doesn't say it does away with the LA of HAlf-Dragon.

Unless you're required to take a PRC all the way, you shouldn't do that. And if you are required to take PRCs all the way, Dragon Disciple is not the one to take.



Having Dragon Disciple 10 as a requirement for all of them is not as many options as you can build. :smalltongue:

Why bother with DD at all when you have the template that does the same thing for a whole lot less pain?

Bang!
2011-01-19, 10:42 AM
You have access to the whole SRD, yet you're using Bard/DD to make a magical claw fighter?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-19, 10:56 AM
You have access to the whole SRD, yet you're using Bard/DD to make a magical claw fighter?

... Yes, as I posted in the OP that the player wanted me to make them a dragon type and we are limited to SRD. I'm aware there are better options; that is almost always true.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 06:44 PM
... Yes, as I posted in the OP that the player wanted me to make them a dragon type and we are limited to SRD. I'm aware there are better options; that is almost always true.

Half Dragon template is in the SRD (under Monsters), and gives you the Dragon type for a +3 ECL that can be bought off over time. This is in every way superior to the Dragon Disciple prestige class.

This completely obviates DD, and in fact prohibits you from taking DD because you already HAVE the Dragon type.