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Silverlich
2011-01-18, 06:51 PM
Ehh, screw it. Help me build the most optimized mystic theurge ever seen in 3.5. Please include which books all material is found in. I'm looking for suggestions about all mechanical aspects of the character; spell selection, items, the whole nine yards. Suggestions for any level are appreciated. I think the DM is going to try to be sadistic, and I want to give him nightmares.

mootoall
2011-01-18, 06:58 PM
... The True Necromancer? Good? What? I'm sorry, but that's ... not true.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:00 PM
Really? Because I see it as "hey look, I can gain levels in wizard and cleric at the same time for 12 levels and get bonus abilities related to undead and epic flavor"

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 07:01 PM
Look at how many caster levels you lost; technically speaking a MT is a better caster then a TN.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:04 PM
How do i lose levels? I can just be a multiclass wiz/cleric until I enter the prestige class, take the first two levels (each of which give me the spell casting of either of my classes), and enjoy the spell progression of a mystic theurge plus bonus powers for the next twelve levels of my fourteen level prestige class.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 07:07 PM
Yea, you loose two caster levels on both sides during your 12 levels, and the first set of lost levels at 1st and 2nd level. Considering how far behind you already are by multiclassing, this is more than simply painful.

About the best way to do it would be:

Wizard 1 (precocious apprentice)/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge2/True Necromancer12/Mystic Theurge2

You do end up with (barely) 15 levels of Wizard casting, which means no 9th level spells...

A better use might be as a four level dip for Dread Necromancer (assuming you could get Southern Magician feat to let your spells count as either divine or arcane, since Summon Undead II is on their spell list) to get the free always-on Desecrate for better undead creation. This is doubleplusgood if you pick up Necropolitian for the self-healing aspect, and can't get the litch form anyways.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:10 PM
What is precocious apprentice?

mootoall
2011-01-18, 07:10 PM
Because let's look at the prereqs to get in- first, a feat tax. Not tooooo bad, but pretty bad. Next, Summon Undead II, so you've gotta be a third level cleric. Next, Command Undead, requiring you to be a 3rd level Wizard. So you've got more MAD than you would as a cleric trying to accomplish necromancy, less BAB than a cleric of the same level, and you're losing three levels of Cleric. Then, you lose one more level of each casting class, meaning your Caster Level is that of a Cleric 4/ Wizard 4 by eighth level. Then you get your Mystic Theurge advancement. Meh.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:14 PM
I don't want to be a true necromancer anymore.

Mando Knight
2011-01-18, 07:15 PM
You do end up with (barely) 15 levels of Wizard casting, which means no 9th level spells...And then your first encounter at level 20 is against a Good Wizard or Cleric 20 who just Gates in a Solar or two. Then he leaves to go trim his hedges or give cryptic quests to first level adventurers or something while 9-foot divine warriors burn your army of bones and rotting flesh to the ground.

Flickerdart
2011-01-18, 07:16 PM
Optimal Mystic Theurge? Easy. Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 9. Double nines. Enjoy!

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 07:17 PM
I don't want to be a true necromancer anymore.

That class disappointed me when I first realized its issues as well. If you want both arcane and divine you are best off going Arcane Hierophant/MT with Wizard/Druid. It gets Wildshape and better casting.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:19 PM
And...can you help me with feats, skills, the order I take levels in, and items? I want to be the very best, like no one ever was...(without infinite loops or other obvious areas where I am deliberately breaking the rules.)

mootoall
2011-01-18, 07:19 PM
For the True Necromancer feel but none of the suck, you could go Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. One of my personal favorite classes.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-18, 07:21 PM
Let's see... loses Divine casting at 1st and 6th; Arcane at 2nd and 7th. Requires 2nd level spells on both sides, but only 5th level Skill requirements. How do we salvage....

Wiz-4/Savage Bard-1/Ur-Priest-2/True Necromancer-13?

Ah, no Death domain. Hmm... Arcane Disciple doesn't work (doesn't mesh with Ur-Priest).

Wizard-1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-2/True Necromancer-14: Wizard-15/Cleric-17 casting. Workable. Far from optimal, but workable.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:24 PM
Huh. For once, that status about your post being obsolete was actually correct. Let me mourn my true necromancer, and please please please please help me with my theurge of doom.

mootoall
2011-01-18, 07:28 PM
Hmm, you could always go Dominant Ideal Ardent 10/Ur-Priest 2/Whatever the Psionic Mystic Theurge is 8. That gets you double-nine casting.

FMArthur
2011-01-18, 07:28 PM
Going for MAXIMUM optimization? Look up Beholder Mage builds and how to enter the class. If you're going for insane raw power I'd actually skip the piddly Ur-Priest shenanigans to devote 10 levels of the build to Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5 to get the Planar Bubble ability and put some 10:1 action economy in your already 11:1 action economy. You can use Mystic Theurge if you like but it's better to use Arcane Hierophant for Druids because it is better in every way and progresses Druid class features.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:32 PM
What book is beholder mage found in?

FMArthur
2011-01-18, 07:34 PM
What book is beholder mage found in?

Lords of Madness. Requires you to find a way to be a Beholder and likely permanently. Polymorph Any Object cast on you twice works. If you do go a druid route then Aberrant Wildshape is probably better since you'll be able to renew it at will and keep your Int.

nedz
2011-01-18, 07:35 PM
Going for MAXIMUM optimization? Look up Beholder Mage builds and how to enter the class. If you're going for insane raw power I'd actually skip the piddly Ur-Priest shenanigans to devote 10 levels of the build to Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5 to get the Planar Bubble ability and put some 10:1 action economy in your already 11:1 action economy. You can use Mystic Theurge if you like but it's better to use Arcane Hierophant for Druids because it is better in every way and progresses Druid class features.

Wow, a Beholder Mage/Planar Shepherd Theurge !
Is that even possible ?

mootoall
2011-01-18, 07:38 PM
What book is beholder mage found in?

We really, truly do mean that this is the pinnacle of cheese. Be prepared to have books thrown at you. Just a warning ...

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:38 PM
If I were to be transformed into a beholder and take beholdermage levels, would I still be able to use them while wildshaped?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-18, 07:38 PM
For a saner build then Beholder Mage/Planar Shepard, I suggest just going Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge, taking Natural Spell as normal of course. You can also go Bard/Sublime Chord for 9th level spells and access to some healing magic.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:39 PM
We really, truly do mean that this is the pinnacle of cheese. Be prepared to have books thrown at you. Just a warning ...

Oh, I WANT the pinnacle of cheese. I'm doing this because I want to be a TOTAL JERK really powerful.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 07:45 PM
Actually, if you want to be a rocking necromancer-type character, may I humbly suggest...

Necropolitian Dread Necromancer 8/True Necro4/Dread Necro 8

Take the feat Southern Magician, which lets your spells count as either arcane or divine, then take the feat Arcane Disciple for the Death domain so that you can qualify.

You still loose A caster level, but the Zone of Desecration is worth that price, since you can't actually cast Desecrate...

From there, take Corpsecrafter, Destruction Retribution, Black Lore of Moil, and Fell Animate. Also make sure to take Undead Leadership for a Bard Cohort.

Now then, this Bard Cohort should be some type of corporeal undead. He should also have the Requieum, song of the heart, and dragonfire inspiration feats, and should have been Dragonblooded in life. Then we go with Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends, make sure he has a Masterworked Mandolin.

So now you make undead by using Black Lore of Moil + Fell Animate. With your Zone of Desecration, they get bonus stats. They get to blow up to deal negative damage in an area effect when they die. Oh, and they are doing like +8d6 damage per hit, and have a +8 on attack and damage

Sure, they're weak mooks. But they're a LOT of weak mooks that hit *HARD*, and blow up when they die, which not only deals more damage to opponents, but heals each other, and yourself.

If you have the room, Mother Cyst is also a fun feat.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:51 PM
NO. MORE. NECROMANCERS. (unless that is how to optimize something.)

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 07:52 PM
Attention All Posters: Please Help Me Build An Overpowered Caster! Cheese Is Good!

mikethepoor
2011-01-18, 08:06 PM
You could always try Wizard3/Archivist3/MT10/X4 if you want to be MAD about it. Archivist uses the cleric list but wizard mechanics.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-18, 08:09 PM
You could always try Wizard3/Archivist3/MT10/X4 if you want to be MAD about it. Archivist uses the cleric list but wizard mechanics.

Wouldn't that be SAD?

Anyway Silverlich what in particular are you trying to accomplish with this character? Apparently you no longer want necromancy... Do you still want a theurge?

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 08:14 PM
Anything powerful.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 09:32 PM
Bard/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge for 9's on both sides, plus IC shennanigans?

Flickerdart
2011-01-18, 09:49 PM
Bard/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge for 9's on both sides, plus IC shennanigans?
Actually you end up with worse casting than Wizard/UP, and your songs will be horribly mediocre.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 10:01 PM
Actually you end up with worse casting than Wizard/UP, and your songs will be horribly mediocre.

You can tweak IC fairly easily, you'll be doing some +7d6 sonic damage plus a +7/+7 morale bonus to attack and damage. Sure, they won't be the best evar, but they really don't need to be at that point.

I mean, it's not Beholder Mage/Planar Shepherd/etc shenanigans, but not bad.

faceroll
2011-01-18, 10:17 PM
Race: kobold

Templates:
Dragonspawn, spellhoarding, riddled

Feats (lacks pre-req feats):
Dragonwrought, Uncanny Forethought

Classes:
Domain War Wizard 1/Rainbow Servant4/Ultimate Magus 10

Why it's powerful:
After level 5, you get 1.7 levels of casting per level, which means you rapidly get AWESOME.
You also start with 29 intelligence, the ability to learn ANY spell, a slew of bonus feats, and +3 wizard spells. Uncanny Forethought lets you spend a full round action to spontaneously cast any spell you know.

Downsides:
While it gets 9th level spells at ludicrous speed, it doesn't branch out into anything else, and the wisdom penalty from the templates means no fast ur-priest casting for you. Long-term, it ends up being a wizard with a very high caster level.

Alternate psionic build:
same race, instead levels look like the following (but not necessarily in that order):

Spells-to-powers erudite 3/wizard1/cerebremancer6/mind mage 10

What you get:
17th level erudite manifesting, 18th level wizard casting.
However, the class features of mindmage give you +10 to manifesting/casting levels and allow you serious metamagic mitigation. Another class feature of mind mage lets you pay power points in exchange for lowering the spell slots a spell is prepared in. Combined with methods for refilling your power points/day and the mnemonic enhancer spell, you basically get unlimited spells and power points per day. Another class feature of the mind mage lets you nova with incredible power. Thanks to being able to recharge power points & spells, nova-ing has almost no cost to you.

RndmNumGen
2011-01-18, 10:18 PM
Don't think it counts as the 'pinnacle of cheese' (You truly can't beat beholder shepard), but you can go Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cebremancer 8/Archivist 3/Psychic Theurge 5 for the ultimate theurge. Gives you 4th level Divine Spells, 5th level Arcane Spells and 8th level Manifesting, all based on INT. You can also do something like Favored Soul 1/Wilder 4/Psychic Theurge 9/Sorcerer 1/Cerebremancer 5 for 3rd level Arcane, 5th level Divine and 9th level Manifesting, all based on CHA. That would give you stronger spells, but fewer of them.

Tael
2011-01-18, 10:30 PM
The Pinnacle of Cheese? Pun-Pun is technically a caster...

Go Go Gadget Incantatrix/Tainted Scholar if you want premium cheese without being a crazy race or using very setting specific stuff. Infinite spells with infinite DC's? And you can persist them? Not quite as broken as beholder mage is, as 10 spells are generally better than 1 unbeatable one.

Also look up the Twice-Betrayer of Shar/Cheater of Mystra.

EDIT: Wait a minute, what exactly do you think this will accomplish? The only way the DM will be able to touch your character if don't play like a 4 year old is by DM fiat, making the entire game "How long will the DM put up with my character destroying the campaign?"

Are you trying to get back at the DM? It won't work. This kind of passive aggressive move never resolves anything.

Is the DM running a really hard campaign? Also won't work, as you will either be completely (and obviously) unstoppable, making the game no fun, or the DM will have the gods come in to kill you themselves. And trust me, no matter how good of a build you have, you are not an experienced optimizer, and you don't know how to play these builds well enough to take on gods.

Are you just trying to annoy your other players/DM? That will definitely work, although you better come with a backup character, or you'll soon be watching tv while the rest of your group plays without you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-18, 10:54 PM
Aw heck, while we're at it, why not suggest Pun-Pun?

Kobold Paladin 1

Yea, that's all you really need.

Derjuin
2011-01-18, 11:09 PM
Wizard/Cancer Mage Illumian (AeshKrau sigil words) and contract Festering Anger (I think it's called that)? I'm not super familiar with how this combo works, maybe someone else can explain the finer details of it, but Cancer Mage allows you to benefit from diseases and (ignore?) the negative effects, while AeshKrau lets you base your bonus spells off Strength, and Festering Anger gives +2 Str (cumulative, stacking) each day.

I think. I don't actually have a copy of BoVD :smallfrown:

It's not really a theurge, but you do get heaps and piles of bonus spells per day.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-18, 11:16 PM
Bard/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge for 9's on both sides, plus IC shennanigans?
1) Savage bard, for the Fort save.
2) Less strong than you might think.

See, both Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord are sharply limited on spells-per-day. So at the end, you're getting 9th level Arcane spells at character level 19, 9th level Divine spells at close to the same (mainly because Mystic Theurge requires you have the classes you're adding to before you take *any* levels in MT). And you've got two casting stats (Wisdom, Charisma), and need a high Int to pull it off (lots of skill requirements).

Other than the little issue that the Ur-Priest allows you to get 9th level spells before 17th level, and you end up with a very wide range of options, there's very little broken about that build compared to a normal Wizard or Cleric.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 12:23 AM
Wizard/Cancer Mage Illumian (AeshKrau sigil words) and contract Festering Anger (I think it's called that)? I'm not super familiar with how this combo works, maybe someone else can explain the finer details of it, but Cancer Mage allows you to benefit from diseases and (ignore?) the negative effects, while AeshKrau lets you base your bonus spells off Strength, and Festering Anger gives +2 Str (cumulative, stacking) each day.

I think. I don't actually have a copy of BoVD :smallfrown:

It's not really a theurge, but you do get heaps and piles of bonus spells per day.

The combo you are attempting to pull off is

Barbarian/Hulking Hurler/Cancer Mage 2

Festering Anger gives a cumulative +2 stacking Str bonus. Which increases your carrying capacity. Which increases, on a geometric scale, the damage output for hulking hurler.

Cancer Mage 2 lets you get all the benefits of diseases, but none of the drawbacks.

NI damage. Have a nice day.

Lans
2011-01-19, 02:04 AM
You could always try Wizard3/Archivist3/MT10/X4 if you want to be MAD about it. Archivist uses the cleric list but wizard mechanics.
I think with Bamboo spirit folk as a race you can make it Wizard3/Archivast3/MT2/MTlike class that is intended for druids that makes your Animal companion your familer 10/MT2

FMArthur
2011-01-19, 07:57 AM
I think with Bamboo spirit folk as a race you can make it Wizard3/Archivast3/MT2/MTlike class that is intended for druids that makes your Animal companion your familer 10/MT2

Well, not technically, since Arcane Hierophant requires Trackless Step as a class feature. It's not the biggest difference and as a DM I would personally allow it for a player who wasn't trying to destroy my game for some reason, but you do give your DM that leeway. Anyway, you don't have an animal companion. It's just better because it has d6 hit dice, medium BAB, and possibly some other class features (don't remember) or better saves. I still might prefer to pick a more beneficial race and just take the frailty that comes from being a MT.