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View Full Version : And lo, he threw down the gauntlet...[3.5]



Silverlich
2011-01-18, 08:12 PM
I challenge you to help me min/max the most powerful caster ever.



All D&D books published by WotC that are legal in 3.5 are acceptable. The more cheese, the better. (Excluding PunPun and the like.) I would like suggestions on everything from feats to the order to take levels in to ability scores to spells to items.

For the sake of my sanity, please include your source for material.

Things I have heard of that seem nice:
-Beholder mage (Must figure out how to enter early)
-Mystic Theurge (Must figure out how to enter early)
-Planar Shepherd (Sounds fun, need to think on how to combine with other stuff
for massive cheese.)

Darwin
2011-01-18, 08:17 PM
Planar Shepherd is just as much of a gouda as PunPun is. Action economy is everything in DnD. And Planer Shepherd's sthick is basically "Action Economy? Screw that!"

In other news

Wizards casts Genesis, creates his own place where time moves out of synch with the material plane. Now he was a place to retreat to, rest up and scry from and you can't catch him there.

Add Craft Contingent Spell to the mix, Resurrection and Teleport/Planeshift back to your plane. Rinse, repeat.

Or just cast Astral Projection and proceed to spank your opponent without suffering any risks yourself.

Basic level 18 Wizard will do the trick. Enjoy your victory.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 08:22 PM
I see a difference between breaking action economy and being able to kill anything in the multiverse as a standard action.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-18, 08:23 PM
This is very difficult to do, because you get into lots of arguments about what should be allowable and what the rules say that are very difficult to resolve. For example, there are tricks that let a kobold have more than 20 Sorcerer levels before 20th level; tricks that let you take levels in PrCs long before you should qualify for them (polymorphing into a Dusk Giant is one of the ways). And at a certain point it becomes really difficult to quantify what's more powerful between two absurdly powerful builds.

Here's the most overpowered caster build I can think of (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140618), but there are certainly better ones possible. Something similar with enough Planar Shepherd to get the ten-rounds-per-round time plane and enough Shadowcraft Mage for that "Shadow Miracles in 0th-level spell slots" thing that makes my eyes glaze over every time I try to read it might work.

JeminiZero
2011-01-18, 08:27 PM
You should also take a look at the following classes:
-Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a): Because the only thing as arguably broken as Action Economy Abuse, is the ability to persist supernatural spells in an antimagic field.
-Tainted Scholar [HoH]: Ridiculous DCs and Bonus Spells. As long as you can find a way to stave off the bad side effects of taint.

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 08:31 PM
Here's the most overpowered caster build I can think of (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140618), but there are certainly better ones possible. Something similar with enough Planar Shepherd to get the ten-rounds-per-round time plane and enough Shadowcraft Mage for that "Shadow Miracles in 0th-level spell slots" thing that makes my eyes glaze over every time I try to read it might work.

Yum................

Alleran
2011-01-18, 08:46 PM
One quick-n-dirty method of optimising a character is just to play a Phaerimm and take sorcerer levels. They double-stack for spellcasting, so a 9th level Phaerimm sorcerer should, even at the lowest number of racial HD, be a 20th level caster.

Then there's the Candles of Invocation method. Gate in a Dweomerkeeper. Have them use a Supernatural Spell'd Polymorph Any Object to turn you into a Mind Flayer. Take levels in Illithid Savant. Use more Candles of Invocation to gate in whatever you need to become unstoppable (I like a combination of Solar divine spells, Beholder Mage arcane spells, 20th level Psion manifesting or 20th level Spell-to-Power Erudite manifesting, Phaerimm spellcasting to turn all your spells into spell-like-abilities, and top it off with the Regeneration of a Tarrasque).

Silverlich
2011-01-18, 09:04 PM
How does this build (courtesy of magic9mushroom) look?

Disclaimer: The only tricks in here I came up with myself were using Clarity of True Madness to get out of Tainted Scholar and using Contemplative to qualify for Dweomerkeeper, and I don't assert being first on those, just that I came up with them independently. However, I didn't see the tricks thrown together into a full build anywhere, so decided to make one.

1: Monk
2: Human Paragon
3: Beholder Mage
4: Human Paragon (Beholder Mage)
5: Human Paragon (Beholder Mage)
6: Tainted Scholar (Beholder Mage)
7: Tainted Scholar (Beholder Mage)
8: Ur-Priest
9: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
10: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
11: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
12: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
13: Ur-Priest
14: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
15: Contemplative (Ur-Priest)
16: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
17: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
18: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
19: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
20: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)

Feats of note: Assume Supernatural Ability x2 obtained through taint at level 2 (if ruled to be required to take Beholder Mage levels), Iron Will and Spell Focus obtained before level 8, Alternative Source Spell obtained through taint at level 8, one metamagic feat and one item creation feat obtained before level 15, Martial Study x2 as soon as possible to get Iron Heart Surge.

Abilities of note: 17 Int, then Wis, then Cha in pointbuy. Human Paragon 3rd and all level-based ability score increases add to Con or Wis.

Original race: Human.
Alignment: Lawful Evil.

Events of note: During 2nd level, she'll amass enough wealth for a Polymorph Any Object into a Beholder, and due to her 17+ Int it will be permanent (getting an Enlarge Person from a random apprentice wizard first). She takes Clarity of True Madness as her 2nd level Tainted Scholar secret, and uses it every time she subsequently gains a level on the Will save for the Tainted Scholar's Level Advancement feature. At some time prior to attaining 15th level, she Greater Planar Binds or Gates in a Pit Fiend and has a chat. She takes Magic as the bonus domain from Contemplative.

Capabilities of note: 9th level arcane spellcasting from 12th level onward, 9th level divine spellcasting from 16th level onward, tainted spellcasting applying to both from 6th level giving large amounts of spells per day and save DCs (not quantified because taint symptoms can affect ability scores), Beholder Mage's casting mechanic of one spell of each spell level as a free action each round, rebuke undead, supernatural spell 1/day from 19th level (once she gets this, she can dispel the PaO and recast it as a supernatural ability, preventing it from ever being dispelled), Iron Heart Surge (to smash Antimagic Fields unBeholderifying her).

Sources required:

Core (Monk, Mystic Theurge, Polymorph Any Object, Beholder)
Unearthed Arcana (Human Paragon)
Lords of Madness (Beholder Mage)
Heroes of Horror (Tainted Scholar)
Complete Divine (Ur-Priest, Contemplative, Dweomerkeeper)
Savage Species (Assume Supernatural Ability)
Dragon #325 (Alternative Source Spell)
Tome of Battle (Martial Study, Iron Heart Surge)



Anticipated Questions and Comments:

Q) Monk???

A) Firstly, it has a good Fort save, which is essential to getting into Ur-Priest. Secondly, it gives Wis to AC, which is nice given Beholder-shaped armour is rare and expensive. Thirdly, it's lulzy to have a supremely overpowered character like this start as a Monk.

Q) Human Paragon shouldn't work as a Beholder.

A) In Unearthed Arcana it states that paragon classes don't go away if you change race (you just can't become a paragon of your new race, and we're not trying to), and it doesn't say you can't gain more levels in them afterward. The first level of Human Paragon is gotten prior to becoming a Beholder. That said, you can substitute the first level of Human Paragon with any other class with Bluff as a class skill and the other two with straight Beholder Mage and it'll still work, just with smaller Hit Dice, one less feat, less skills and no +2 to an attribute.

Q) Why take Tainted Scholar before Ur-Priest rather than later?

A) Tainted Spellcasting is obscenely powerful, hence it makes the character more powerful through the midlevels. There's also MAD going on if you don't pick up Tainted Scholar before starting on Ur-Priest.

Q) Why not use Favored/Primary Contact to enter Tainted Scholar early?

A) Two reasons. First, that would make entry to Ur-Priest conditional on the use of fractional base save bonuses. Secondly, it's kinda preposterous for a frickin' BEHOLDER to remain part of a mages' guild, and I wanted the build to be reasonable.

Q) Why 2 levels of Tainted Scholar? You only need one.

A) Technically true, but Clarity of True Madness means you don't need a natural 20 on each of your Will saves to avoid taking another level in Tainted Scholar, and like I said above, I didn't want something that unlikely.

Q) You can't qualify for Mystic Theurge with 1 level of Ur-Priest.

A) Alternative Source Spell lets her cast any arcane spell as a divine spell and vice versa. She can cast up to 5th level arcane spells at this point.

Q) Contemplative as an Ur-Priest? WTF?

A) Nothing in there says you have to worship a god or be a cleric, and a Pit Fiend should certainly count as an "enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment". It's fair game.

Q) Ur-Priests don't have domains, so you can't get into Dweomerkeeper.

A) Contemplative gives you an extra domain, and Complete Divine spells out that nonclerics still get them.

Q) My DM won't let me play this! Help!

A) Sorry, no help there .