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Xefas
2011-01-24, 05:27 AM
In Return of the Scarlet Empress, it specifically mentioned giving different vulnerabilities to Sol Invictus "...especially in a series where playing the Games of Divinity helps sustain the universe and is, therefore, not intrinsically intemperate."

To me, this means that the writer thinks its up for debate.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-24, 05:28 AM
Oh, okay, I could easily be wrong. xD

Xefas
2011-01-24, 05:35 AM
Oh, okay, I could easily be wrong. xD

Well, like I said, I think they want it to be up for debate on a game-by-game basis. Some games will be churning cesspits of despair and horror where even the most righteous of the Gods are all terminally stupid, crack addicted bastards, the wonders of the First Age will never be reclaimed again, Gaia is searching for the solution to Creation's problems in vain because there is no solution, everything is spiraling ever faster towards oblivion, nothing you do will ever matter towards anything, and the best you can hope for is that one of your friends puts a knife in your back before you get the chance to go insane and beat your wife to death for not doing the dishes fast enough.

Some games will have a team of Godbloods with the Beast Form (Pony) debility that go and teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-24, 05:38 AM
Some games will have a team of Godbloods with the Beast Form (Pony) debility that go and teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship.
...
Please?
Someone make this?

horngeek
2011-01-24, 06:22 AM
You'd probably seduce him into goodness. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2011-01-24, 07:49 AM
Nope. The ED is a ----. He doesn't deserve to get seduced by the Lix.
ANY other Yozi/primordial/deathlord/villain? Sure!
...except the Dowager. Hate her so much.

Fortuna
2011-01-24, 07:52 AM
Aw. Poor Ebon Dragon. I'm sure that he really just wants to be loved.

*is backstabbed*

ghost: *******!!!:mad:

Lix Lorn
2011-01-24, 07:54 AM
(frontstabs ED)
Yeah, that's right. Not even empowering you with your death.

Fortuna
2011-01-24, 07:55 AM
Yay! My hero!

*Is bound into soulsteel by a passing abbysal*

*********!!!!!!!:mad:

Which goes to show that mortals are always, inevitably, screwed. Even in death.

EDIT: Also, get on AIM so I have someone to talk to. Please? It's lonely in this daiklaive!

Kris Strife
2011-01-24, 08:03 AM
Well Random, you could always respond to the PM I sent you the other day. :smalltongue:

Fortuna
2011-01-24, 08:04 AM
An intriguing proposal. I shall have to ponder long and hard on the idea.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-24, 08:06 AM
Yay! My hero!

*Is bound into soulsteel by a passing abbysal*

*********!!!!!!!:mad:

Which goes to show that mortals are always, inevitably, screwed. Even in death.

EDIT: Also, get on AIM so I have someone to talk to. Please? It's lonely in this daiklaive!
Awwww. As soon as I get home from school iiiin a little under two hours?

Tavar
2011-01-24, 12:04 PM
So, I had a very interesting debate on the nature of the Yozi. Specifically, how limited are they by their nature. This matters, as I mentioned how (myself included) many feel some sympathy for the Yozi, but also that the Ebon Dragon often doesn't get this sympathy. The other began to question the difference that makes the others worthy of sympathy/pity, and not him, and in the end I was unable to really give a good answer. So, anyone else have a good one?

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-24, 12:09 PM
Simple. Most of the Yozis were at least decently moral as Primordials. Shadow that Was, not so much. He's the least deformed of the Yozis. What does that tell you about his "former" incarnation?

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-24, 12:35 PM
Simple. Most of the Yozis were at least decently moral as Primordials. Shadow that Was, not so much. He's the least deformed of the Yozis. What does that tell you about his "former" incarnation?

Dragon's Shadow, not the Shadow That Was. Which is weird, because other Primordials did not change their names unless they underwent fetich death, so he should still be called Dragon's Shadow.

EDIT: Also, a question to STs / would-be STs: how much do you enforce the language barriers of Creation? I, for one, tend to be quite strict about it and make sure all characters share a language, but others may not feel the same way.

golentan
2011-01-24, 12:37 PM
Because being true to your nature and being sympathetic are not the same thing, nor even related. I don't care if something that killed and ate my grandma was acting purely on instinct, I want it gone because it's dangerous and hurt my feelings (to say nothing of my grandma's).

If something is a thing you hate intrinsically, the fact it cannot be other doesn't get it a free pass.

Kyeudo
2011-01-24, 12:46 PM
EDIT: Also, a question to STs / would-be STs: how much do you enforce the language barriers of Creation? I, for one, tend to be quite strict about it and make sure all characters share a language, but others may not feel the same way.

No. See, he used to be the literal shadow of a dragon. There was something flying around that looks just like the Ebon Dragon does today, but that was the shadow of the real Primordial, who was the shadow that thing cast. When the Ebon Dragon was made into a Yozi, he stopped being a shadow and started being the dragon.

Now, his title - "The Shadow of All Things" - that still applies and has always applied, because he has always been defined by his opposition to all things true, noble, and good. Of course, truth, nobility, and goodness were all ideas that the Ebon Dragon had put into Creation, including free will, because he wants to subvert all of those concepts.

Kylarra
2011-01-24, 01:07 PM
EDIT: Also, a question to STs / would-be STs: how much do you enforce the language barriers of Creation? I, for one, tend to be quite strict about it and make sure all characters share a language, but others may not feel the same way.I forced all my players to share a language for simplicity's sake.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-24, 01:19 PM
Now, his title - "The Shadow of All Things" - that still applies and has always applied, because he has always been defined by his opposition to all things true, noble, and good. Of course, truth, nobility, and goodness were all ideas that the Ebon Dragon had put into Creation, including free will, because he wants to subvert all of those concepts.

Imagine the shinma. They define their concepts by embodying the exact opposites.

Drascin
2011-01-24, 03:26 PM
So, I did mention I'm reading GWM, which is really cool but a damn lot of stuff. Anyone who is up to date on the Fae can tell me how you go about actually forging Oaths and Oneiromancies and such other Grace arti-magics? I seem to be missing something. Or is it just a matter of normal Craft (perhaps with Glamour)?

Xefas
2011-01-24, 03:34 PM
So, I had a very interesting debate on the nature of the Yozi. Specifically, how limited are they by their nature. This matters, as I mentioned how (myself included) many feel some sympathy for the Yozi, but also that the Ebon Dragon often doesn't get this sympathy. The other began to question the difference that makes the others worthy of sympathy/pity, and not him, and in the end I was unable to really give a good answer. So, anyone else have a good one?

As Golentan pointed out, if something is a threat, I'm going to deal with it accordingly because, as a human being, that's all I can do.

But, it seems like he's lumping "hate" in there, too. I'm not. If a starving wolf attacks my grandma, I would not hesitate to end its life, because it's a threat; not because I hate it. It's nature is to fight and eat and kill, and it can do nothing else; how could I begrudge it for that? That's like hating the wind for blowing, or the grass for growing, or the sea for flowing (I swear to god I didn't mean for that to rhyme).

In a way, a Primordial is even more restricted than that wolf. A wolf has a limited capacity to learn, and can be convinced (probably via slabs of meat) to not attack a grandma because you're giving them a better option. A grandma-killing Primordial can not be. There's nothing you can do; even if it's within their best interest not to; a grandma-killing Primordial is going to kill grandmas because the idea of doing so is what they are.

So, why hate the Ebon Dragon? First, I'd like to point out that every Yozi "is a threat". I don't really "hate" any other Yozi, but I would certainly agree to the elimination of any of the ones that we've seen, because they're a direct threat to me and my loved ones.

Lets look at Malfeas. Why is he a threat? Well, he'll light you on fire if you don't do exactly what he says all the time unquestioningly and subserviently. But that's because he doesn't even realize you're a person. He's so big and powerful that, to him, you're basically an ant. Have you ever stepped on an ant before? Did you ever stop to mourn them? And why shouldn't he think that? He's a world, and a concept, and a horde of demons; if anything, we're comparing the bacteria that you squish as you walk around in your daily life. Do you care about their lives too? It's only a matter of degree; they're small, and you're big. They're simple, and you're complex. We're all alive, but they're so simple and tiny, why do the bacteria matter? And now you know what Malfeas is thinking when he shifts a city block and murders 10,000 people without even noticing.

Adorjan is different. She's a bit more personal; she might be able to see you as a person. The problem is that she doesn't understand why you're so wrapping up in this "being alive thing".

I posted this quote before when talking about Adorjan, but here it is again:

You know where the sanctity of life came from? We made it up. You know why? 'Cuz we're alive. Self-interest. Living people have a strong interest in promoting the idea that somehow life is sacred. Only living people care about it so the whole thing grows out of a completely biased point of view. It's a self serving, man-made ******** story.

Adorjan is wind. Wind that happens to kill people as it passes through. How do you expect her to value life the same way a living human being does? How is she going to land on the exact arbitrary designation the rest of us have decided life is worth? When it says "she kills you because she loves you", that's not some macabre crap; it's quite literal. She values life in a different way than you do, and she can do nothing else.

I could go on and on about each Yozi, but lets get to the Ebon Dragon, because this post is getting long and I'm hungry. The Ebon Dragon is different. He thinks in very human terms. He doesn't kill you because he doesn't know better, he kills you because he wants to act like an *******. He comprehends life and death on the same plane as humans do. Murder is evil to us, and it's evil to him, but he does it anyway. He completely understands Virtue in the way humans understand it (he doesn't have something like Swilly's Cosmic Transcendence of [Virtue]), he's just a psychopathic serial-everything-bad-ist.

This is where I draw the line. Can he change himself? No. So part of me wants to pity him. But, to me, that's where I draw my arbitrary line of hate. In his own mind, he is evil, and he's overjoyed with that.

meschlum
2011-01-24, 05:49 PM
So, I did mention I'm reading GWM, which is really cool but a damn lot of stuff. Anyone who is up to date on the Fae can tell me how you go about actually forging Oaths and Oneiromancies and such other Grace arti-magics? I seem to be missing something. Or is it just a matter of normal Craft (perhaps with Glamour)?

Creating Grace magic happens in one of five ways:

A) Making new 1- or 2- dot artifacts

Find a commoner (for 1-dot stuff) or noble (for 2-dot stuff) and acquire the relevant Grace (Staff if you want to make an Oath, etc.)
Use the Great Works of the X (Staff for an Oath...) charm on the grace. This takes a few seasons, typically, and requires commited motes all the way.
Done!
Post errata, remember to put your commoner in Elsewhere storage, as your artifact will be destroyed if the commoner dies.
Nobles are harder to toss into Elsewhere indefinitely, but are also a weak point in your artifact (barring GM kindness / Heart 4 nobles).

B) Making new 3- dot artifacts

Go on a quest to pester the Unshaped, and succeed using shaping conflict of the proper type (Cup for Oneiromancy). This gives you a 'proto artifact'
Use Great Works of the X on the Unshaped's gift. This takes many seasons.
Done!

C) Making new 4- or 5- dot artifacts

Own an artifact of the proper type which is 1 dot less than your target
Go on a quest to pester the Unshaped. If you succeed, they'll empower your artifact.
Use Great Works of the X. This takes almost forever.
Done!

D) Converting existing artifacts

Own an artifact of the proper type which has as many dots as the one you want.
Use the Unshaped Grace Transformation Charm (suited to the artifact type). This takes fewer seasons than making a new artifact.
You now have the artifact you wanted (and lost the old one)
Done!

E) Cheating

Create a noble Fair Folk via Ecstatic Reproduction Style. They have bonus points, which can be spent on artifacts.
Meddle with Unshaped charms to get someone else to become an Unshaped, then revert to noble Fair Folk status. They get bonus points to spend on artifacts.
Use Behemoth Forging Meditation to turn mortals into 1-dot behemoth equivalents (with a lower commitment cost, more mutations but fewer options for mutations).

Tavar
2011-01-24, 06:17 PM
Hey, I've heard/seen several mentions of the fact that one balance point for melee is that you have to draw a weapon, so if you're unarmed/haven't drawn it, you can't use melee charms(because you can't use a charm from one ability with a roll for another unless specifically allowed). But in the core book, above the Martial Arts section, it says that you can use the higher of your martial arts or melee abilities with the following weapons, and lists unarmed strikes(of all kinds) in that section. Is that a goof? Or am I missing something?

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-24, 06:28 PM
Hey, I've heard/seen several mentions of the fact that one balance point for melee is that you have to draw a weapon, so if you're unarmed/haven't drawn it, you can't use melee charms(because you can't use a charm from one ability with a roll for another unless specifically allowed). But in the core book, above the Martial Arts section, it says that you can use the higher of your martial arts or melee abilities with the following weapons, and lists unarmed strikes(of all kinds) in that section. Is that a goof? Or am I missing something?

Unarmed strikes have the N tag, which means they must be used with martial arts. The same goes for several clinch weapons, which have the C tag. The M tag allows you to use weapons with either ability, which most martial arts weapons have, including smashfists.

golentan
2011-01-24, 08:41 PM
Here now. I don't lump "hate" in with "danger." I see though that I combined bits of my argument in a confusing way. Bear in mind, I've got a crush on SWLiHN, and want to give malfeas and half a dozen other yozis a big hug. Doesn't mean I would ever consider letting them out, but I like them while recognizing their danger. I sympathize.

But I sympathize because their nature is sympathetic to me. Because I (having understood their nature as best as available observation allows) feel I understand the reasons they are what they are, and feel that they lash out in pain and fear (or curiosity in some cases) more than malice. I still want to get them away so they don't kill grandma, but I just want them away rather than hating them.

The ebon dragon, though, is something I hate intrinsically. He is malice and cruelty, no other justification required or given. The fact that he can't change just means that as long as I don't change I will continue to hate him ad infinitum rather than saying "oh, but he can't change so it isn't his fault."

Kyeudo
2011-01-24, 09:38 PM
The ebon dragon, though, is something I hate intrinsically. He is malice and cruelty, no other justification required or given. The fact that he can't change just means that as long as I don't change I will continue to hate him ad infinitum rather than saying "oh, but he can't change so it isn't his fault."

Oddly, I find him the most forgivable of the Yozis. Yes, he is evil incarnate and must be checked at every turn and never allowed free ever again, but in him is embodied one of the best traits: free will. The Ebon Dragon embodies freedom within his dark and spiteful majesty and because of him humanity has a chance to be whatever it can be. Every scrap of dignity, everything virtuous and noble, owes its existance to the Ebon Dragon.

And, in a way, that makes the Ebon Dragon even more evil. Of all the Yozis, he has the most power to choose differently. He doesn't always have to lie or cheat or steal or backstab. It's what makes him dangerous. You could be getting exactly what you bargained for when dealing with the Ebon Dragon but then again the Shadow of All Things might decide that this one is the time he's gonna screw you over you feel like you've been violated in orifices you never knew you had. You can never know which it will be and so he can always hold out another temptation and you'll always find yourself wondering "maybe this time it won't happen?"

And something about that makes the Ebon Dragon the most human. He acts not just out of an inability to concieve of others having a choice or an opinion worth mattering, but because he knows you have hopes and dreams and fears. He's evil because he likes it. He revels in your pain because that's just how he gets his kicks. He is that part of ourselves that coined the words "schadenfruede" and "sadism", that part that we don't like to acknowledge that we have and try to sweep under the rug and lock in the closet.

Perhaps that's why his punishment is greater than that of any other Yozi. Sure, some of them lost their fetich souls and were changed into things other than what they were, but the Ebon Dragon is shackled to his greatest fear. He's the definition of claustrophobic. It rises from that core of free will that gives him his greatest strength. The Ebon Dragon cannot abide being shackled or imprisoned, yet he finds himself shackled with oaths and imprisoned within Malfeas. The only thing he fears more is death and it was only the threat of death that got him to agree to the surrender oaths. For millenia, he has not known a moment of peace. His torment is endless and I can only say that it serves him right.

To say that I find him the most forgivable is really to say that he is the only one of the Yozis who needs forgiveness, for he is the only one of the Yozis who can sin. And he would not have it any other way.


Because of his whole "freedom" schtick, I think any Ebon Dragon Charm that exerts any sort of Compulsion is completely retarded. The Shadow of All Things doesn't force people to become monsters, they make themselves monsters. He's just a facilitator in bringing out your own inner darkness, using your own lusts to tempt you to step just a bit farther into the night, just another step, until you find you can no longer see the light of day. When you find yourself damned, you can not say that it was any hand but your own that signed over your soul to the devil.

Primal Fury
2011-01-24, 11:34 PM
Because of his whole "freedom" schtick, I think any Ebon Dragon Charm that exerts any sort of Compulsion is completely retarded. The Shadow of All Things doesn't force people to become monsters, they make themselves monsters. He's just a facilitator in bringing out your own inner darkness, using your own lusts to tempt you to step just a bit farther into the night, just another step, until you find you can no longer see the light of day. When you find yourself damned, you can not say that it was any hand but your own that signed over your soul to the devil.

*snicker* You think the Ebon Dragon cares about everyone else's freedom? That's silly. Sure, it is likely more satisfying for him to facilitate someone's downfall rather than force someone into it, but when it comes to getting the job done, sometimes you just have to use some sort of mass Inner Devils Unchained charm and make them do messed up stuff (murder, cannibalism, etc). Then, after that's over, change them back, let them realize all the horror they've wrought, and wallow in self-pity... then use Golden Years Tarnished Black expansions to make them enjoy what they did, and make them want even more.

Hell, you could even do some weird thing with Inner Devils Unchained that imprisons them within their new demon body while the darker nature takes over, and force them to experience every single second of the basest desire, and be able to do absolutely nothing about it. Then use Everything Gets Worse to make what they did seem even worse... Then make them enjoy it again.

Ebbie cares for no ones else's freedom other than his own.

Kyeudo
2011-01-25, 02:20 AM
*snicker* You think the Ebon Dragon cares about everyone else's freedom? That's silly. Sure, it is likely more satisfying for him to facilitate someone's downfall rather than force someone into it, but when it comes to getting the job done, sometimes you just have to use some sort of mass Inner Devils Unchained charm and make them do messed up stuff (murder, cannibalism, etc).

Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.


Then, after that's over, change them back, let them realize all the horror they've wrought, and wallow in self-pity... then use Golden Years Tarnished Black expansions to make them enjoy what they did, and make them want even more.

Hell, you could even do some weird thing with Inner Devils Unchained that imprisons them within their new demon body while the darker nature takes over, and force them to experience every single second of the basest desire, and be able to do absolutely nothing about it. Then use Everything Gets Worse to make what they did seem even worse... Then make them enjoy it again.


Note that everything you use there to play mind games on people was released by the Ink Monkeys, not in the MoEP: Infernals proper. I tend to disagree with the direction the Ink Monkeys are taking every Exalted Charm set they've touched. Yes, I realize Goodwin is an Ink Monkey and has worked on every Charm set I have ever considered to be amazing. The paradox boggles my mind too.



Ebbie cares for no ones else's freedom other than his own.

Really now? You mean the Ebon Dragon didn't fight SWLIHN to keep the Green Sun Princes largely free of supernatural shackles? You mean he wasn't the one who wrote free will into the pattern of every god and mortal despite SWLIHN's insistance?

The Ebon Dragon values free will, because otherwise how can betrayal happen? Does slavery rankle if you have never tasted freedom? How can you be degraded if you could not choose to be better? How can you hate if you can not instead choose to love? The Ebon Dragon would see you in chains made from your own choices, forced by your own hand to destroy everything you hold dear, and laugh as you throw away all your supposed virtues just to fufill your own lusts, but to do it he needs you to have the agency to have stepped from his black path, because otherwise your damnation holds no pain, no torment at the end of your days when you remember the love you murdered and the nation you betrayed. His motives are far from pure, but the Ebon Dragon values free will and will do much to see it continue to exist.

Tell me, honestly, which sounds more like the Ebon Dragon: "I made that man kill his lover." or "That man killed his lover because I led him to believe she was unfaithful."

golentan
2011-01-25, 02:46 AM
Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.

Nonsense. Some of us can't choose to be a demon on the inside. Some of us have safety measures built in so that we are incapable of violating a preprogrammed code without the proper passcode and resonance key.

Some of us also find free will chafes something awful on our psyche when that resonance key gets taken away. Some of us wonder if any of it was worth the pain when that happened.

Though I do wish to point out that using inner devils unchained to spawn mutant superheroes is an awesome use of one's time.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-25, 04:52 AM
Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.
Easy. Pull an FFC or whatever they were called and TELL the victim they'll have no control. (smirk)


Really now? You mean the Ebon Dragon didn't fight SWLIHN to keep the Green Sun Princes largely free of supernatural shackles? You mean he wasn't the one who wrote free will into the pattern of every god and mortal despite SWLIHN's insistance?

The Ebon Dragon values free will, because otherwise how can betrayal happen? Does slavery rankle if you have never tasted freedom? How can you be degraded if you could not choose to be better? How can you hate if you can not instead choose to love? The Ebon Dragon would see you in chains made from your own choices, forced by your own hand to destroy everything you hold dear, and laugh as you throw away all your supposed virtues just to fufill your own lusts, but to do it he needs you to have the agency to have stepped from his black path, because otherwise your damnation holds no pain, no torment at the end of your days when you remember the love you murdered and the nation you betrayed. His motives are far from pure, but the Ebon Dragon values free will and will do much to see it continue to exist.

Tell me, honestly, which sounds more like the Ebon Dragon: "I made that man kill his lover." or "That man killed his lover because I led him to believe she was unfaithful."
Sure he wants free will, but only so he can screw people over more. The ED seems to me to be an embodiment of selfishness as much as betrayal-he wants his own pleasure, and if someone else is made happy/free on the way, that's a shame, and he'll try to rectify it later.

Primal Fury
2011-01-25, 09:17 AM
Might want to go re-read Inner Devils Unchained. While it does make you into a demon, it enforces no behavior on you. The Charm in fact specifically says that it does not allow the Infernal to control the target in any way. The Charm makes you a demon on the outside. Whether you are a demon on the inside is your choice.
Oh dear. My mistake. I was under the impression that IDU forced the behavioral aspects upon them as well. I figured you'd still love your wife, but as a blood ape, you'd express said love by ripping her legs off and giving them to her as an anniversary present.


Note that everything you use there to play mind games on people was released by the Ink Monkeys, not in the MoEP: Infernals proper. I tend to disagree with the direction the Ink Monkeys are taking every Exalted Charm set they've touched. Yes, I realize Goodwin is an Ink Monkey and has worked on every Charm set I have ever considered to be amazing. The paradox boggles my mind too.
To each their own I suppose. I, for one, love what their doing with the various Yozi charms, though some of them do feel a bit... off to me, such as Swillin's more "playful" charms (seriously, where did that come from?).


(Awesome)

Tell me, honestly, which sounds more like the Ebon Dragon: "I made that man kill his lover." or "That man killed his lover because I led him to believe she was unfaithful."
I withdraw my argument then. All of your points are quite good, and make me look at the Ebon Dragon differently. I sometimes have difficultly seeing him as something other than a mustache twirling villain. He's so much worse than that.

Kyeudo
2011-01-25, 10:07 AM
Oh dear. My mistake. I was under the impression that IDU forced the behavioral aspects upon them as well. I figured you'd still love your wife, but as a blood ape, you'd express said love by ripping her legs off and giving them to her as an anniversary present.


Well, you can use IDU to impose behavior on someone if you know sorcery because once they are a demon they are a legitimate target for Slave Spawn Summons, but if you know sorcery there's easier ways to brainwash people.



To each their own I suppose. I, for one, love what their doing with the various Yozi charms, though some of them do feel a bit... off to me, such as Swillin's more "playful" charms (seriously, where did that come from?).


I'm glad other people notice the problem as well. The Ink Monkeys do some good things and have great ideas that I can't help but steal, but they also print some Charm text that makes me want to slap someone.



I withdraw my argument then. All of your points are quite good, and make me look at the Ebon Dragon differently. I sometimes have difficultly seeing him as something other than a mustache twirling villain. He's so much worse than that.

Let's not forget he is the mustache-twirling villain as well. If he isn't going to be able to corrupt you, he'll just smash your plans and give you the finger. But he is the grandest villian, the progenitor of true evil. Just stealing a baby's lolipop is not beneath him, but its not worth his time when he could be whispering about treason to the king's vizier and finding a way out of prison.

golentan
2011-01-25, 01:25 PM
See, I like most of the ink monkey's stuff, but I also view it as optional source material.

That said, I do like their SWLiHN charms. Follow the Leader to me, for example, reads as "the universe has physical laws because I set those rules. You are breaking my rules. RAGE!!!" if you ignore the name and some of the text. Though I'm not sure I prefer it as a SWLiHN charm rather than a Cecelyne: it seems to hit the arbitrary social laws rather than actual physical ones.

Xefas
2011-01-25, 04:54 PM
Two of Swilly's themes are social ones, though: Hierarchy and Taboo (mostly as a way to control people below you in the hierarchy). And, really, I think it's fine if the themes of two Yozi overlap a little. For instance, Malfeas and Isidoros both share the "Never give up, never surrender! ALWAYS FULL POWER! No one can control me! I will punch my limitations in the face until they stop being limitations!" themes.

golentan
2011-01-25, 05:08 PM
I know, which is why I'm ambivalent about it rather than opposed. I feel the workup works *better* as written for cecelyne, but I do like it as a moe charm.

Also, Malfeas and Isidoros totally need to be spiral warriors, as do their exalts.

Xefas
2011-01-25, 05:18 PM
Also, Malfeas and Isidoros totally need to be spiral warriors, as do their exalts.

What about Qaf, who is quite literally a drill-shaped entity that pierces the heavens? He also created the "principle of perfection", forging the first Perfect Defense, the concept of which he shared with the rest of the primordials so that they could fight off the Unshaped that wished to dissolve them back into the Wyld before they could make Creation.

golentan
2011-01-25, 05:25 PM
I'm not familiar with Qaf, but if he's the actual drill maybe malfeas and isidoros can Gattai! and wield him in battle.

I have some reading to do.

Xefas
2011-01-25, 05:34 PM
I'm not familiar with Qaf, but if he's the actual drill maybe malfeas and isidoros can Gattai! and wield him in battle.

I have some reading to do.

Well, he's not a drill; he's a mountain. But mountains and drills have similar shapes, and there's nothing stopping Malfeas from Unity of the Closed Fist-ifying the two of them together, and having a giant rapidly-spinning mountain for the arm of their amalgam (or something similar).

The size of such a thing...

Drascin
2011-01-25, 05:53 PM
I know, which is why I'm ambivalent about it rather than opposed. I feel the workup works *better* as written for cecelyne, but I do like it as a moe charm.

Also, Malfeas and Isidoros totally need to be spiral warriors, as do their exalts.

Malfeas is entirely too trapped in the past and in his own immutable nature to be a Spiral Warrior. Spiral power is the power of evolution and change - the self-hating, past-dwelling Malfeas would suck as one.

Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe :smalltongue:.

golentan
2011-01-25, 05:59 PM
Malfeas is entirely too trapped in the past and in his own immutable nature to be a Spiral Warrior. Spiral power is the power of evolution and change - the self-hating, past-dwelling Malfeas would suck as one.

Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe :smalltongue:.

And that wouldn't be worth it in and of itself? And I was thinking of Malfeas as more "Pre-timeskip Lordgenome:" I.E. still mighty, but trapped in a spiral of self hatred and loneliness without possibility of living up to the person he might once have been, but still with a desire to be that person and the will to fight. Locked in a prison of his own making because of the surrender oaths he swore, unable to do the only things left in his life that bring him joy because of the same oaths without extenuating circumstances.

I think it fits.

Xefas
2011-01-25, 06:04 PM
Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe.

Considering that Malfeas used to be The Empyreal Chaos, a being of pure power, evolution, and change, I think Swilly would be just fine. I imagine her as the typical secretary/personal-assistant-to-the-freakishly-eccentric-billionaire archetype.

Like Mercy Graves, who's like "Oh, Lex, you're going to use 7.5 billion dollars to make yet another kryptonite laser cannon, instead of retiring with your fabulous wealth and living like a god on your own personal island/planet-if-you-wanted? possibly with me Yeah, I guess that's okay..."

EDIT: Pic related
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/LexMercy.png

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-25, 06:58 PM
Really now? You mean the Ebon Dragon didn't fight SWLIHN to keep the Green Sun Princes largely free of supernatural shackles? You mean he wasn't the one who wrote free will into the pattern of every god and mortal despite SWLIHN's insistance?

******* over SWLIHN is kind of the thing Ebby would do, but again, remember, the Ebon Dragon always acts in his own interests.

He values his own freedom. The Ebon Dragon is selfish. The only reason he's not a hypocrite is because that would imply he has standards.

He gave the Green Sun Princes free will not because he gave a crap about their freedom, but because their freedom was necessary to carry out the Reclamation.

Take a look at his First Excellency, the thing that dictates what he is capable of doing. He hates his own restraint in any form, but he literally cannot help someone else unless he would profit more then the person he's helping by that help.

Also, his ultimate goal, his Urge (he doesn't have a Motivation) is to reduce the universe to a dark, Virtueless place, where his will alone dictates possibility.


Just stealing a baby's lolipop is not beneath him, but its not worth his time when he could be whispering about treason to the king's vizier and finding a way out of prison.

He has a self-inflicted Ophidian Urge. When he goes into Torment for a day, his vice that he is compelled to follow is petty evil for it's own sake.


Two of Swilly's themes are social ones, though: Hierarchy and Taboo (mostly as a way to control people below you in the hierarchy)

Controlling people below you is more Cecelyne's schtick then SWLIHN's, though there is some overlap.

SWILIHN would create a social structure and enforce it strictly, but she doesn't necessarily have to be on the top of that structure (see: how she does everything Malfeas tells her to).


Malfeas is entirely too trapped in the past and in his own immutable nature to be a Spiral Warrior. Spiral power is the power of evolution and change - the self-hating, past-dwelling Malfeas would suck as one.

Plus SWLiHN would have an aneurysm to see her boss and emperor using the power that is most rawly opposed to herself in the universe :smalltongue:.

Malfeas-That-Was would be a great Spiral Warrior, though.

And I dunno if SWLIHN would be that opposed to Spiral Energy. She's opposed to chaos in itself, but she dismantles order to make way for better order.

She's totally Rossiu, in other words.

golentan
2011-01-25, 11:57 PM
Actually, the Ebon Dragon's principles and excellency bring up a question my friend had. He asked if 1) you could arrange a situation where you profited massively from the perspective of virtue and only from that perspective, and 2) lied about it, and 3) the ebon dragon gained profit, 4) would he believe he was screwing you over and help save that orphanage?

I said yes, but it would be difficult to convince him. Or that he might realize you're lying but not necessarily about what or be able to grasp that saving the orphans gives you a warm fuzzy just for the joy of helping them.

Thoughts?

Kyeudo
2011-01-26, 01:57 AM
******* over SWLIHN is kind of the thing Ebby would do, but again, remember, the Ebon Dragon always acts in his own interests.

He values his own freedom. The Ebon Dragon is selfish. The only reason he's not a hypocrite is because that would imply he has standards.

He gave the Green Sun Princes free will not because he gave a crap about their freedom, but because their freedom was necessary to carry out the Reclamation.

Take a look at his First Excellency, the thing that dictates what he is capable of doing. He hates his own restraint in any form, but he literally cannot help someone else unless he would profit more then the person he's helping by that help.


But the Ebon Dragon does benefit from the freedom of others more than anyone. Back when the Primordials crafted Creation, he insisted on free will just so all the gods could realize how screwed over they were. They only got to watch as the Primordials played X-Box and pwnt noobs on the interwebs and had to do the grunt work of keeping all those dang-blasted raksha from sneaking in the back door like cockroaches. Mortals? What good did free will do mortals? I mean even in the High First Age the average mortal's choices amounted to "Will I wear red today or blue?" Their free will just meant that when the Ebon Dragon felt like torturing ants (Who doesn't get that feeling once or twice a century?) he could go ruin a few hundred thousand mortals lives for kicks and giggles.

Now? Free will is his only possible get-out-of-jail-free card. He needs not only 50 Green Sun Princes choosing to send Creation to Hell, but countless cultists, powermongers, corrupt bureaucrats, and lust-blinded idiots all choosing the wrong things for the wrong reasons at all the wrong times to get his schemes to fruition. He needs Chejop Kejack choosing to look left when he might see something important by looking right, the Bull of the North commiting forces to fighting the Realm when he could be fighting Hell, and so on and so forth.

And if he wins? I think you'll find the Ebon Dragon leaves free will right where it is. He'll tie up all those nasty loose ends called the Exalted, seal them away in Lytek's cabnet where they can't muck up his schemes any longer, and spend a few millenia getting everyone else to destroy themselves for him. What other way could be more entertaining? In the end, the only remaining choice will be to listen to the voice in the darkness, but how you get there matters ever so much.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-26, 03:55 AM
...
You know why the ED is a great villain?

You're completely right, completely in character, and your posts about him are making my spine tingle in fear.

Rock on you, rock on Exalted.
Now I need to hide behind some solars. Back later.

golentan
2011-01-26, 04:22 AM
I'm here for you lixie, don't worry.

Seriously, though, any thoughts on the possibility of tricking the ebon dragon with things he is incapable of understanding?

Lix Lorn
2011-01-26, 04:59 AM
I'm here for you lixie, don't worry.

Seriously, though, any thoughts on the possibility of tricking the ebon dragon with things he is incapable of understanding?
(clings. Sexily.)

Hmm. Potentially possible... but as people said earlier, he IS capable of change... it's likely he does comprehend the ideas of good and such, but despises them...
Then again, truly sociopathic humans, AFAIK, don't understand virtuous behaviour. So it's likely he wouldn't either.

....in conclusion, I haven't a clue. Yet I managed to tack my sexy clinging onto an on-topic post.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-26, 07:11 AM
(clings. Sexily.)

Hmm. Potentially possible... but as people said earlier, he IS capable of change... it's likely he does comprehend the ideas of good and such, but despises them...
Then again, truly sociopathic humans, AFAIK, don't understand virtuous behaviour. So it's likely he wouldn't either.

He can, through Black Mirror Shintai, get an Intelligence and Perception score, which allows him to think of things outside his Excellency and consider virtuous and non-anti-heroic things for a while. However, then he will become Ebon Dragon again, and forget why he considered such things.

Fortuna
2011-01-26, 07:31 AM
Not only that, Black Mirror Shintai also copies Virtue ratings. Make of that what you will.

DragonSinged
2011-01-26, 10:33 AM
Oy. So my lady was having some difficulty sleeping last night, and we got to talking about a weird dream I had had, which involved pestering Toad (from the Mario series) until he gave me a bi-plane which flew around firing essence cannons at a bunch of other planes.
...
Anyways, that got us talking about Mario & Exalted, and trying to fit the various characters into various Exaltations and things like that. Now, I'm still relatively new to Exalted, and a lot of the various types are still pretty foreign to me, but this is what we came up with - feel free to offer your own opinions, a lot of ours are probably not the most accurate.

Mario - Solar. He's the main man, he's pretty much gotta be. Besides which, fire flower = Blazing Solar Bolt? Invincibility Star = Perfect defense with Valor flaw?

Luigi - Solar, low Valor score.

Yoshi - Lunar?

Toads - We weren't sure whether the toads would be mortals, or if you would equate the Mushroom Kingdom to the Realm, and have the Toads be Terrestrials. If this is the case, then I'm really a bit hazy on where Peach fits in.

Princess Peach - The Scarlet Empress?!?! :smalleek: (Probably not, we just couldn't figure her out.)

Rosalina (Galaxy) - Sidereal. No question here.

Goombas - Extras? Weak First Circle Demons?

Koopa troops - First circle demons, probably.

Boos - Spirits, ghosts.

Bowser - Not sure with him, either. 3rd circle demon? Deathlord? Primordial?

Wario - Abyssal, probably.

Waluigi - Abyssal

Geno (Legend of Seven Stars) - Sidereal

Haunted Mansions - Shadowlands


Anyways, that's all I can come up with right now, which is probably for the best. :smallwink:

Drascin
2011-01-26, 12:27 PM
Well, if you want my opinions...


Mario - Solar. He's the main man, he's pretty much gotta be. Besides which, fire flower = Blazing Solar Bolt? Invincibility Star = Perfect defense with Valor flaw?

Yeah, pretty much. Has some pretty nifty Athletics stuff.


Luigi - Solar, low Valor score.

I'd say Lunar. He's much more given to the weird stuff (see his Final Smash, which basically a Deep Wyld Zone), plus Lunars are forever cursed to being second-bananas... just like Mr. L is.


Yoshi - Lunar?

Yoshis seem to be a race of very intelligent (and tenacious, and in fact really quite badass) animals. I say either ascended animals or beastmen of some kind, allies to Mario and his people.


Toads - We weren't sure whether the toads would be mortals, or if you would equate the Mushroom Kingdom to the Realm, and have the Toads be Terrestrials. If this is the case, then I'm really a bit hazy on where Peach fits in.

Even equating with the Realm, they're the Mortals anyway. Okay, maybe we could stretch the Toad Brigade as Terrestrials, but most are just mortals.


Princess Peach - The Scarlet Empress?!?! :smalleek: (Probably not, we just couldn't figure her out.)

...well, she IS top-tier in Melee... :smalltongue:


Rosalina (Galaxy) - Sidereal. No question here.

Yeah. Funny thing then, though, is that this means in the Marioverse it's the Sidereal the one that has the power to make the universe explode and call for a re-do, while the Solar just jumps around being a hero. Still, I imagine the Bureau would dance in little circles if they got their hands on the Observatory.


Goombas - Extras? Weak First Circle Demons?

Koopa troops - First circle demons, probably.

Boos - Spirits, ghosts.

Pretty much.


Bowser - Not sure with him, either. 3rd circle demon? Deathlord? Primordial?

Too alive and temperamental to be a +5 Ghost like Deathlords are, I'd say. I wouldn't know where to put him either. Funny thing is Bowser's record of successes is more impressive than most Deathlords, and he's still considered a joke villain :smalltongue:


Wario - Abyssal, probably.

Infernal by a mile. Not actually evil, just selfish, has freakish strength and is known to transform weirdly for powers.


Waluigi - Abyssal

WAAAAAAAA (that is how Waluigi shows approval)


Geno (Legend of Seven Stars) - Sidereal

Well, he does have the star association, but his powers are more in the vein of GENO DESTROY than anything (he's kind of broken damagewise, really). Maybe he got some pretty broken Sidereal Martial Art on hand.


Haunted Mansions - Shadowlands


Could work.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-26, 12:46 PM
Mario is a Zenith and Luigi is a Heretical Scourge. Yoshi is a Wyld-mutated intelligent claw strider.

Octavian Bowser is a Second Circle demon, and his minions are the First Circle demons he's created.

Toads are mortals, and Princess Peach can vary pretty wildly in between games. In some, she's a ronin, in others, she's barely more then an extra.

Boos are ghosts, yeah. Wario is a Slayer. Dunno about Walugi. Fawful is a Defiler with Solar circle sorcery.

Hm. This could be a fun campaign.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-26, 01:00 PM
If Peach is Her Redness, then that officially makes Daisy Mnemon. Although relatively equal (maybe) in fan following, Peach gets more appearances and is generally more prolific in the Mario series. Let's just ignore the whole genetics thing there. And another thing- Peach is constantly being kidnapped by (usually) Bowser, and was once nearly married to him. Ring a bell?

Lix Lorn
2011-01-26, 01:15 PM
Bowser's too nice to be the ED.

Tavar
2011-01-26, 01:25 PM
Too alive and temperamental to be a +5 Ghost like Deathlords are, I'd say. I wouldn't know where to put him either. Funny thing is Bowser's record of successes is more impressive than most Deathlords, and he's still considered a joke villain :smalltongue:

Interesting thing; I was reading a set of author quotes, and one of them really caught my interest. (http://nobilis.me/quotes:deathlords-are-overpowered)

Spoilered here if you don't want to follow the link:

Lea Sheppard On Deathlords;
In lieu of typing up some long thing that boils down to "A lot of stupid crap has built up around the Deathlords since the 1e corebook, and you should ignore most of it," I'll just say a lot of stupid crap has built up around the Deathlords since the 1e corebook, and you should ignore most of it.
Yes, they can betray the Neverborn, because that's within the set of behaviors characters that occupy their niche in the setting should be able to engage in. If the rules say they can't, the rules were written wrong. The Deathlords are the thirteen dark scheming would-be rulers of a weird gothic fantasy setting that exists parallel to the normal mythic pulp fantasy setting of Creation.
(Underworld needs to be re-written so it's a weird gothic fantasy setting that exists parallel to the normal mythic pulp fantasy setting of Creation, consisting of all the non-modern stuff from Wraith and all the gothic fantasy tropes that don't quite fit perfectly into Creation proper.)
They're thirteen tragic, puissant, horrible rulers caught in the memory of their past glory. They should scheme and plot and fight to hold temporal power over the Underworld instead of doing the job the Neverborn set them to do, which was doom the world. They should actually be bad at, and disinterested in, their assigned task. If you read their writeups in the 1e Abyssals book, it's clear they were. The Lion and the Princess moped; the Eye and the Lover ****ed around; and Dowager and the Bishop pursued insane, doomed schemes; the Mask blew his wad early and tipped the setting off to the Deathlords' existence; the Walker did something generically mysterious; and the Bodhissatva actually ran a nation for PCs to run around in and have Underworld-themed adventures. Not a single one of them looked like an actual credible threat to the setting, unless you, the ST, wanted to single one out as the center of your campaign's plot. All the rest of them do is waste resources in order to exercise temporal power over the Underworld, in pathetic attempts to recapture the glory of their past.
(Deathlords need to be restatted so they need to waste huge resources in order to exercise temporal power over the Underworld instead of just each being able to solo the whole thing like they can right now.)
Clearly this is not what the Neverborn want them to do.
If Resonance ****s this up, then maybe they shouldn't be statted as uber-Abyssals with a Resonance track. Just make 'em powerful ghosts with a bunch of custom Arcanoi.
(Arcanoi need to be re-written from the ground up.)

What I am advocating here is a back-to-basics approach to the way the setting works first you figure out what role a given NPC was clearly written to fill in the narrative tapestry of the game, and then you figure out how best to represent that through setting elements. The Deathlords have been grossly mishandled, rendered basically unable to fulfill the purpose they were inserted into the setting to fulfill. It doesn't matter whether Essence 10 + a Resonance track dictates they can or can't do X. That's putting the cart before the horse.


If we're following that vision, he does make a relatively good deathlord. Still, I think some sort of Infernal/Demon works better.

golentan
2011-01-26, 01:40 PM
He does fit exceedingly well as the Quarter Prince, on many levels.

I do also prefer the deathlords in their original "fail-servant" form. It makes more sense as to why the Abyssals were such a big thing for the neverborn, and why a millennium's gone by with relatively minimal efforts on their part. Great Contagion excepted, naturally.

Tavar
2011-01-26, 01:48 PM
Right. My idea(based on that article) right now puts them on the level of Terrestials/Sidereals, but only in the Underworld, and in comparison to other ghosts. Yes, they're more powerful than pretty much any given ghost, but as they learned in the Usurption, quantity has a quality all it's own.

This is also why an Abyssal can tell them to STFU without being insta-gibbed; currently, they're about equivalent in power. The only problem is that Deathlords are at the Zenith of their power, while Abyssals still have a lot of room to grow. Heck, none of them have even broken Essence 6 yet.

Also fits with the idea that the Deathlords are training their replacements, though they don't realize it.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-26, 01:52 PM
Bowser's too nice to be the ED.

But the marrige would still end the world.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-26, 02:11 PM
Wait, the Deathlords aren't fail-servants in their 2nd edition form?

They're built up as badasses, sure, but if you actually read between the lines, they kind of suck at the job the Neverborn hired them for. There's literally one out of nine that's not ******* around with his own plots instead of getting on with destroying the world, and even that one's not doing that great a job at it.

I like the Deathlords where they are, personally. Not to mention that if they're any weaker then they are, there's kind of the problem of why the Siddies didn't just pop in and gank them the second they learned about them. Or why the numerically superior Abyssals didn't say "screw this" and gank them. Or why Thorns is still in the Mask of Winter's hands.

randomhero00
2011-01-26, 02:18 PM
I like to implement my own conversion of deathlords (DLs). They are mysterious in their motives and you better watch the frak out if they notice you. Basically a lot of intrigue, and the players never know the final truth. Its how they were meant to be IMO.

Tavar
2011-01-26, 02:31 PM
They're outside of Fate, and the Siddies historically have dismissed outside of fate things as a threat(see...Dragon kings warning the Sids about the Great Contagion, and the Sids ignoring it.) Plus, before that, why worry? They're ghosts, only concerned with taking over the underworld. No need to worry, and if they ever actually seem to be close to accomplishing their goal, the Sid's can go an gank them. Until then, not worth the trouble.

Then the Great Contagion hit, and the Sid's went into complete damage control mode(plus, do they even know where it's from?). They're too bust now to deal with the underworld. It's like a doctor treating the symptoms, which happen to be internal hemoraging, organs shutting down, and the patient keeps stopping to breathe, but leaving the cause untreated, because they don't have the time to look up what the cause is.

Finally, the Abyssals have only been around for, what, 5 years? They haven't yet told the Deathlords to STFU because they aren't sure of themselves yet, plus the fact that, at the moment, the Deathlords are in a position of power. They have established resources, which they use to keep the Abyssals under their thumbs, plus they play politics, keeping them fractured from uniting against them. Oh, and they do have the Monstrances, which is a big plus in their favor for now. And it's not like being exalted automatically makes you the top dog- there's one Solar exalted who's subservient to a god (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Characters:Filial_Wisdom), even though he could easily break free.

Guancyto
2011-01-26, 02:56 PM
(plus, do they even know where it's from?)

The Sidereals book mentions that the Convention on Udr has, like, two people who have the foggiest inkling that some location out in the East might have been responsible for it (and the name, "Well of Udr"). And even that information has come to them very recently. And is kept very secret by those two people and Ketchup Carjack. Nobody knows where it came from.

Also that the Convention on Deathlords wasn't much to look at before Thorns or the arrival of the Abyssals, as opposed to right now where the majority of the Five-Score Fellowship are numbered in its rolls. They just weren't a big deal to the Siddies before now, and now it's much too late for Deathlord-shanking.

Drascin
2011-01-26, 05:41 PM
By the way, since we're talking about videogames and Exalted... since I have been playing Monster Hunter Portable 3rd, I have been giving some thought to the idea of getting a bit of MonHun into Exalted. It's a hard fit, though - having weapons made from normal steel plus monster pieces instead of the five magical materials, or the fact that we don't really have much in the way of decent behemoth examples to use as example for building the monsters, or specially the fact that Mortals in Exalted Just Lose (tm), and hunters are very much mortal (in fact, Exalting them would be kind of point-defeating), so it'd be kind of doomed, I guess...

Dragnar
2011-01-26, 06:00 PM
Hmm... Heroic mortals, wielding special weapons made from the bodies of dead behemoths... it could work. Trick is, you would need an exalt to enchant the weapons with some form of sorcery to give the mortals a chance. Perhaps something to make the weapon better at killing the class of being it was made from, and armor that boosts DVs against the same... Also: all the monsters have very small accuracy pools.

Xefas
2011-01-26, 06:02 PM
Wait, the Deathlords aren't fail-servants in their 2nd edition form?

I think that quote is trying to express that there is a disconnect between the fluff, the reality, and mechanics of the situation.

Fluff-wise, the Deathlords are badasses. They're ancient God-Kings turned undead Lich-Kings, with vast armies and nigh-infinite resources, the backing of immortal, cosmically powerful (if limited) entities, ludicrous personal strength and unfathomably potent intellects.

Mechanically, this is backed up. They're Essence 10 super-ghosts, and super-Solars, and super-Abyssals, with crazy ridiculous Necromancy, and only mildly-ridiculous Sorcery, with some unique charms and abilities thrown in. Sure, some of them can't read, but no one's perfect.

In reality, however, they're fail-servants.

And I think they're just saying this needs to be evened up a little.

Personally, however, I've just chocked up their worthlessness to the Immortality-Time-Perception problem, which I wish had been something that had a bigger effect on the events leading up to the Usurpation, but whatever.

Basically, as you get older, your perception of time elongates. To a 6 year old, 5 minutes genuinely feels longer than it does to an 80 year old - its not them just be impatient, belligerent children. You may have noticed an old person sit for a whole day thinking and doing nothing else. It's not just because they're boring - it's because a day might only feel like a few hours to them. For an immortal person, this would continue. The Deathlords were already ancient when they died; at least over a millennia, and probably far older. Its been thousands of years since then, and so, to them, when they cook up a crazy plan and then decide to spend a night to "sleep on it", just to make sure, it may take hundreds of years.

Why don't the Neverborn slap them and tell them to get back to work? Well, the problem is going to be even worse for them. The Deathlords are thousands of years old, but they're hot-blooded whippersnappers to the Neverborn. It only takes you 800 years to settle on an idea? Holy crap, you guys are on the ball.

This would let them have their nigh-omnipotent power and crazy intelligence, without them having just taken over the world yet, but without portraying them as incompetent. It makes Abyssals even more attractive to the Neverborn, as their 20-30 year old drive is like moving in super-fast-forward as far as the Neverborn can tell (if you're reasonably non-young, and have seen an elementary-age child just explode in a whirlwind of activity, which made you suddenly feel very tired, then just imagine that times a billion).

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-26, 06:52 PM
Why don't the Neverborn slap them and tell them to get back to work? Well, the problem is going to be even worse for them. The Deathlords are thousands of years old, but they're hot-blooded whippersnappers to the Neverborn. It only takes you 800 years to settle on an idea? Holy crap, you guys are on the ball.

The Neverborn don't do that because the Neverborn are dead, dreaming and insane. They don't really have any "conscious" thoughts other than "must destroy Creation and fall into the Abyss NOW!" and "holy hell I am in a lot of torment why must this be so?". The Deathlords and Abyssals only hear Whispers, which are their dreams, not their thoughts. If they could directly access their thoughts instead of their dreams, the background would be pretty boring.

At least, as far as I understand the Neverborn. They cannot really act, just react to the actions of others.

Xefas
2011-01-26, 07:19 PM
At least, as far as I understand the Neverborn. They cannot really act, just react to the actions of others.

As I understand it, five of the Neverborn got woken up, and now they occasionally do things. Is this not correct?

Kyeudo
2011-01-26, 07:28 PM
As I understand it, five of the Neverborn got woken up, and now they occasionally do things. Is this not correct?

They occassionally talk telepathically with things near-by in a semi-coherent fashion. Also, they can torture Deathlords like they did to Falafel.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-26, 07:35 PM
As I understand it, five of the Neverborn got woken up, and now they occasionally do things. Is this not correct?

They did not "wake up". Their tombs were opened, so their dreams can leave their bodies and find their way across the Underworld. That is how they recruited the Deathlords, after all.

Xefas
2011-01-26, 08:02 PM
Alright, then let me mend the offending statement.

Why don't the dreams of the unconscious Neverborn slap them, metaphorically of course, in the same way they inflicted torment on the First and Forsaken Lion, and tell them to get back to work? Well, the problem is going to be even worse for them. The Deathlords are thousands of years old, but they're hot-blooded whippersnappers to the dreams of the unconscious Neverborn. It only takes you 800 years to settle on an idea? Holy crap, you guys are on the ball.

EDIT: Parallel discussion: Does anyone think it's too freaking difficult for Solars to fly? They get Eagle Wing Style, which is Ath 5, Ess 4, with three prerequisites that are rendered mostly useless once you actually get Eagle Wing Style. It's 4m,1wp, scene long, has an arbitrary distance-from-ground cap, and prohibits the use of two-handed weapons.

It's actually just cheaper and better in every way to get it via mutations (which would be 18xp, so only slightly more than 2 charms). Should Solar charms really be worse than the mutations available to mortals and Godbloods and stuff?

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-26, 10:06 PM
Should Solar charms really be worse than the mutations available to mortals and Godbloods and stuff?

Possibly. Solar Charms are mostly based around taking mundane skills over the top. Hence why a Charm that lets you run on the air itself is a higher Essence charm. There are things Solar charms don't encompass, or can be gotten elsewhere.

Taking a mutation, though, has some very nasty downsides. How you get it, the social stigma of carrying an abomination-level mutation, and if you're a Wyld mutant, some incredibly nasty side effects.

Xefas
2011-01-26, 10:24 PM
Possibly. Solar Charms are mostly based around taking mundane skills over the top. Hence why a Charm that lets you run on the air itself is a higher Essence charm. There are things Solar charms don't encompass, or can be gotten elsewhere.

Taking a mutation, though, has some very nasty downsides. How you get it, the social stigma of carrying an abomination-level mutation, and if you're a Wyld mutant, some incredibly nasty side effects.

I didn't mean "mutation" as in "the set piece within the game world that designates you as a mutant that can fly", but rather "the mechanical item that costs 6 bonus points and gives you flight". I should've been more clear. I make this distinction because I don't think the "social stigma" was taken into account for balance purposes as far as mutations go.

I also realize that Solar Charms can't do everything. But I think flight should be one of the things they can do. As far as the thematic of "mundane skills over the top", I think "Jump" -> "Fly" is a smaller leap than "Accurate At Shooting Things" -> "Banishing Stuff to Another Plane of Existence".

Tavar
2011-01-26, 10:24 PM
What are peoples opinions on Crystal Chameleon Style(glories of the most high)?

Xefas
2011-01-26, 10:32 PM
What are peoples opinions on Crystal Chameleon Style(glories of the most high)?

Well, it has a perfect dodge that costs less than Duck Fate, so it's pretty good for Sidereals. (EDIT: And, of course, martial arts with perfect defenses are always good for Terrestrials if they can find a Bronze Faction tutor)

Overall, I like the proper nouns. Razor-Edged Prism Assault runs a little long, I feel, but Death from Nowhere Method definitely makes up for it.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-26, 10:38 PM
I didn't mean "mutation" as in "the set piece within the game world that designates you as a mutant that can fly", but rather "the mechanical item that costs 6 bonus points and gives you flight". I should've been more clear. I make this distinction because I don't think the "social stigma" was taken into account for balance purposes as far as mutations go.

The two are intertwined. You can't take a mutation without explaining where it came from, and all of the ways you could gain that mutation from a non-innate source have some serious drawbacks.

And if you're a -blooded, well, that's one of the tricks you can pull.


I also realize that Solar Charms can't do everything. But I think flight should be one of the things they can do.

And they can do it. Just at Essence 4.

Besides that, correct me if I'm wrong, but this sort of feels like you're thinking in D&D terms. Personal flight is rare in Exalted. Most ways of flying require sorcery or magitech, and almost all of those ways require a ship of some sort. Being able to fly without any sort of aid has always been a pretty high Essence effect in Exalted.


"Accurate At Shooting Things" -> "Banishing Stuff to Another Plane of Existence".

Where is that from?


What are peoples opinions on Crystal Chameleon Style(glories of the most high)?

Personal feelings? It's awesome.

Balance? No idea.

Jokasti
2011-01-26, 10:54 PM
And if you're a -blooded, well, that's one of the tricks you can pull.

Dragonblooded can do it? Coolio.

Tavar
2011-01-26, 10:55 PM
I think he's thinking of...not summon the loyal bow, but the one that can put/draw weapons from elsewhere.

Xefas
2011-01-26, 11:00 PM
The two are intertwined. You can't take a mutation without explaining where it came from, and all of the ways you could gain that mutation from a non-innate source have some serious drawbacks.

And if you're a -blooded, well, that's one of the tricks you can pull.

Alright, well, ponder this. I want to be able to fly. Athletics seems like the most direct route, but instead I take Medicine. I get a Medicine Excellency, Wound-Mending Care Technique, and Science of Mutation. Three charms, Medicine 5, Essence 4 minimum - fewer prerequisites than Eagle Wing. Now, not only can I stick wings on myself, so I can fly without all the restrictions given by Eagle Wing Style, permanently and with no cost, but I can also do so much else, not just with that charm itself, but with the two prerequisites compared to the three prerequisite for Eagle Wing Style which are rendered mostly redundant.

Yes, now I have wings. That's kind of conspicuous, but so is being able to fly without wings. I can always say that the God of Things That Can Fly gave them to me. Whose going to argue? The mortals that I'm saving? Probably only the people who were going to find an excuse to call Anathema on me in the first place.

So Medicine is actually better than Athletics at doing athletic things. I don't think this should be so.


Besides that, correct me if I'm wrong, but this sort of feels like you're thinking in D&D terms. Personal flight is rare in Exalted. Most ways of flying require sorcery or magitech, and almost all of those ways require a ship of some sort. Being able to fly without any sort of aid has always been a pretty high Essence effect in Exalted.

I'm just going to ignore that grave personal insult, and move on. I absolutely agree that personal flight should be rare in Exalted. In fact, I think it should only be less-than-terribly-difficult for a few hundred people in the entire world. I'd go so far as to say only the most powerful entities in the entire universe should be able to pull it off with relative ease.


Where is that from?
Summoning the Loyal Bow. Somehow being trained in how to aim also allows you to take a bit of wood and blast it into an alternate dimension, and then suck it back through the tapestry of the world at your leisure. The connection is tenuous at best.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-26, 11:38 PM
Dragonblooded can do it? Coolio.

:smalltongue:

You know what I mean.


Alright, well, ponder this. I want to be able to fly. Athletics seems like the most direct route, but instead I take Medicine. I get a Medicine Excellency, Wound-Mending Care Technique, and Science of Mutation. Three charms, Medicine 5, Essence 4 minimum - fewer prerequisites than Eagle Wing. Now, not only can I stick wings on myself, so I can fly without all the restrictions given by Eagle Wing Style, permanently and with no cost, but I can also do so much else, not just with that charm itself, but with the two prerequisites compared to the three prerequisite for Eagle Wing Style which are rendered mostly redundant.

Sure, you can do that. It does something similar to Eagle-Wing Style, but it has it's own drawbacks, just like Eagle-Wing Style has it's drawbacks.

You severely underestimate just how much of a disadvantage it is to have mutations, which you have to look at in a setting as established as it is in Exalted. You dismiss social stigma, which is in fact going to cripple you unless you're constantly socially-persuading people, which is not really a viable option. People in Creation are people, and they are heavily prejudiced against mutants. They're also not stupid. They're not going to believe a line about being blessed by a non-existant god. Unless you're using social-fu. Which has it's own problems.

There's also reason that the Solars rely on internal techniques, or have abilities that allow them to always have their external aids at hand. A fight against anyone with the capability to harm you is going to see your wings being targeted.


Probably only the people who were going to find an excuse to call Anathema on me in the first place.

Yeeees? And now they're going to spot you without even trying. Whereas your average Solar who doesn't have a active anima could walk up to a member of the Wyld Hunt who isn't using his Charms and have a pleasant conversation. Painting a huge target on yourself for people that want you dead and are capable carrying that out is not a good thing in any way shape or form.


So Medicine is actually better than Athletics at doing athletic things. I don't think this should be so.

It can reach the same goal by doing something else entirely, with it's own drawbacks. That's not a bad thing.


I'm just going to ignore that grave personal insult, and move on.

I'm guessing you're joking here, but that's what sprung to my mind immediately.


I'd go so far as to say only the most powerful entities in the entire universe should be able to pull it off with relative ease.

It's a good thing the Primordials, Third Circle souls, Essence 10 Exalts, Deathlords, and Incarnae can pull it off then.

A starting Solar is astronomically far from being anywhere near the top. They have the potential to get there, but that's a long way away.


Summoning the Loyal Bow. Somehow being trained in how to aim also allows you to take a bit of wood and blast it into an alternate dimension, and then suck it back through the tapestry of the world at your leisure. The connection is tenuous at best.

It fits within the thematics of the Solar Exalted, which is really what you should be considering when you look at a Charm.

They are peerless archers. And an archer is never without his bow. A Solar never need find himself defenseless from chance or malice, for he can will it and his weapon will appear at his hand.

Of course, you're also wrong. It follows Essence Arrow Attack and Phantom Arrow Technique, two of the more obviously supernatural Charms in the Archery tree.

WalkingTarget
2011-01-27, 12:06 AM
Alright, well, ponder this. I want to be able to fly. Athletics seems like the most direct route, but instead I take Medicine. I get a Medicine Excellency, Wound-Mending Care Technique, and Science of Mutation. Three charms, Medicine 5, Essence 4 minimum - fewer prerequisites than Eagle Wing. Now, not only can I stick wings on myself, so I can fly without all the restrictions given by Eagle Wing Style, permanently and with no cost, but I can also do so much else, not just with that charm itself, but with the two prerequisites compared to the three prerequisite for Eagle Wing Style which are rendered mostly redundant.

Yes, now I have wings. That's kind of conspicuous, but so is being able to fly without wings. I can always say that the God of Things That Can Fly gave them to me. Whose going to argue? The mortals that I'm saving? Probably only the people who were going to find an excuse to call Anathema on me in the first place.

So Medicine is actually better than Athletics at doing athletic things. I don't think this should be so.

Or you could take one of a few 3 dot Artifacts (and some craft/lore/etc. to repair them - or take 4/5 dot versions that don't require maintenance). That'll do it too. Edit - Hell, the Belt of Aerial Mobility has a repair rating (of 1, only Lore 3 and resources 2 necessary for one-hour repairs at 2 success difficulty) but doesn't actually list how often repairs are needed. The entry even says that it's still possible to make these things.


I'm just going to ignore that grave personal insult, and move on. I absolutely agree that personal flight should be rare in Exalted. In fact, I think it should only be less-than-terribly-difficult for a few hundred people in the entire world. I'd go so far as to say only the most powerful entities in the entire universe should be able to pull it off with relative ease.

My personal... idiom for thinking about Solar charms is to think of what a human-ish being could do, but crank it up. There's very little that a person can do that is anything like unaided flight, so the "standard" approach was to build a flying machine, like they did in the First Age. The charm works (fluff-wise) by repelling the ground with Essence itself. That implies to me a certain refinement of Essence is necessary. Maybe dropping the requirement to 3 would help (or having something new but more limited after, say, Racing Hare Method or the others that involves literally running on air), but I'm not really a mechanics/balance guy.



Summoning the Loyal Bow. Somehow being trained in how to aim also allows you to take a bit of wood and blast it into an alternate dimension, and then suck it back through the tapestry of the world at your leisure. The connection is tenuous at best.

I always dropped this (and it's related melee weapon and armor variants) into the "we want to allow our characters to have super-cool, over-the-top weapons but not require them to be displayed as a giant Anathema Over Here flag all the time" category - might not make perfect sense, but added as an aid to the undercover position of Solars in the setting time period. There are other uses for the charms, sure, but the meta-game reason is how I justify them.

Xefas
2011-01-27, 12:07 AM
You severely underestimate just how much of a disadvantage it is to have mutations, which you have to look at in a setting as established as it is in Exalted. You dismiss social stigma, which is in fact going to cripple you unless you're constantly socially-persuading people, which is not really a viable option. People in Creation are people, and they are heavily prejudiced against mutants. They're also not stupid. They're not going to believe a line about being blessed by a non-existant god. Unless you're using social-fu. Which has it's own problems.

I think you're overestimating. Yes, they're prejudiced against mutants, but in this case, you wouldn't be a mutant. And there are sufficiently enough things in the world that could reasonably give you something that is mechanically represented as a mutation that I don't think everyone is going to immediately jump on you. I said "God of Things That Can Fly", but I certainly hope you knew that wasn't completely serious.

Find a god that is reasonably associated with something resembling an animal or the sky or something. Do something nice for him. Ask him to give you a high-five. Proceed to tell everyone you were blessed by him. It's not a lie. Alternatively, say you were blessed by Luna - you're speaking figuratively, because her ever-shifting form inspired you to dabble in altering yourself. Or say your were blessed by the Sun - that's absolutely true.

Or are you suggesting entire towns of people will just attack anything that looks remotely strange? Lost Eggs? Godbloods? Their own city god who happens to look like a winged ferret? Ted, the carpenter from down the street who wrote a poem so beautiful that the Goddess of Desert Herons hit him with her wing-granting mojo?


There's also reason that the Solars rely on internal techniques, or have abilities that allow them to always have their external aids at hand. A fight against anyone with the capability to harm you is going to see your wings being targeted.

You can apply this to anything. Oh, the Solar has arms? Called shot; he's dumb for having such a weakness. Eyes? Well, called shot on them too. What's the penalty for targeting the poor Solar's junk who hasn't bought Junk Internalizing Technique?


A starting Solar is astronomically far from being anywhere near the top. They have the potential to get there, but that's a long way away.

We're not talking about a starting Solar. We're talking about an Essence 4 Solar who has sunk a non-trivial amount of experience into doing this one thing.

And I think you know full well what I meant. Solars are the most powerful entities in the Exalted universe, and they should be able to do this with relative ease. Becoming Essence 10, dying, and then having a Neverborn soul attached to you is not "relative ease".


It fits within the thematics of the Solar Exalted, which is really what you should be considering when you look at a Charm.

They are peerless archers. And an archer is never without his bow. A Solar never need find himself defenseless from chance or malice, for he can will it and his weapon will appear at his hand.

That's absolutely what I'm considering. I think flight fits very nicely into the thematics of the Solar Exalted. I agree that Summoning the Loyal Bow works with the thematics of an archer, I do not, however, think it works with the thematic of "mundane abilities, but better", which is what we were talking about. You're changing the context of what I said.


Of course, you're also wrong.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/nou.png

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-27, 12:29 AM
I think you're overestimating. Yes, they're prejudiced against mutants, but in this case, you wouldn't be a mutant.

And they know this how?


And there are sufficiently enough things in the world that could reasonably give you something that is mechanically represented as a mutation that I don't think everyone is going to immediately jump on you.

There are several things that can give you a mutation. I can't think of a single one that's benevolent.


I said "God of Things That Can Fly", but I certainly hope you knew that wasn't completely serious.

There is in fact a God of Things That Can Fly. The last threads title was not hyperbole.


Or are you suggesting entire towns of people will just attack anything that looks remotely strange?

There's a slight difference between "remotely strange" and having a thirty-foot wingspan.


Lost Eggs?

Are Dragon-Blooded. Rulers of a good chunk of Creation. People know what a DB is. They also don't have incredibly glaring physical abnormalities.


Godbloods?

Are heavily persecuted in a lot of places.


Their own city god who happens to look like a winged ferret?

Is a god. One they grew up with.


Ted, the carpenter from down the street who wrote a poem so beautiful that the Goddess of Desert Herons hit him with her wing-granting mojo?

Ted is going to likely find himself run out of town. Or burned to death.


You can apply this to anything. Oh, the Solar has arms? Called shot; he's dumb for having such a weakness. Eyes? Well, called shot on them too. What's the penalty for targeting the poor Solar's junk who hasn't bought Junk Internalizing Technique?

This is fair enough. I'll withdraw that remark. However, there is a slight difference between a giant obvious pair of wings and your arms.


We're not talking about a starting Solar. We're talking about an Essence 4 Solar who has sunk a non-trivial amount of experience into doing this one thing.

Three or four charms is not a heavy amount of experience.

And an Essence 4 Solar still has a ways to go.


And I think you know full well what I meant. Solars are the most powerful entities in the Exalted universe, and they should be able to do this with relative ease. Becoming Essence 10, dying, and then having a Neverborn soul attached to you is not "relative ease".

A Essence 10 Solar is the most powerful entity in the Exalted universe, sure. A lower Essence Solar can beat a lot of things, even things you would suspect would be outside of his weight class. But they are not the most powerful beings in the Exalted universe.

And again, being a Solar does not automatically make you able to do everything with ease. A Solar can do almost anything with enough time and work. That does not mean they can do anything easily.

Flying is one of those things. Hell, flying is not one of those things. Waiting until Essence 4 to gain personal flight isn't a huge restriction.


That's absolutely what I'm considering. I think flight fits very nicely into the thematics of the Solar Exalted. I agree that Summoning the Loyal Bow works with the thematics of an archer, I do not, however, think it works with the thematic of "mundane abilities, but better", which is what we were talking about. You're changing the context of what I said.

Except "mundane abilities, but better" is only one theme of the Solar Exalted.


http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/nou.png

Uh. Page 189, Exalted 2e. Check it.

Xefas
2011-01-27, 12:57 AM
Ted is going to likely find himself run out of town. Or burned to death.

Okay, I think this characterizes the problem with this whole first bit. You're making the world out to be more vicious and xenophobic that I think the default necessarily is. I get that the world is meant to be vicious and xenophobic to a degree, but it's also supposed to be a place of fantasy. A place where fantasy things happen; not a place that just stamps out any overtly fantastic things without asking any questions.

Hell, I posted an article earlier written by one of the Exalted developers saying that no one in Creation would hate you even if they knew you were an Infernal. Even if you glowed with malicious green light and had wings and horns and giant brass armor covered with spikes and blasphemous writing.

Now, maybe you play in a world far more grimdark than the developers intended, but I don't think that should enter into the equation.


Three or four charms is not a heavy amount of experience.

That's why I said "non-trivial". If I gave everyone in a party 100xp, but Steve only gets 68xp, he'll notice. So, it's non-trivial.


A Essence 10 Solar is the most powerful entity in the Exalted universe, sure. A lower Essence Solar can beat a lot of things, even things you would suspect would be outside of his weight class. But they are not the most powerful beings in the Exalted universe.

I don't understand. You're simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with me. I'm saying "Solars are the most powerful entity in the Exalted Universe", and you're saying "Yes. But no, if they're weaker than everyone else".


And again, being a Solar does not automatically make you able to do everything with ease. A Solar can do almost anything with enough time and work. That does not mean they can do anything easily.

Flying is one of those things. Hell, flying is not one of those things. Waiting until Essence 4 to gain personal flight isn't a huge restriction.

I'm not disagreeing with this. I'm fine with Solars waiting until Essence 4. Solars can already do almost what I'm saying. I'm just saying they should be able to do it without the arbitrary restrictions.


Except "mundane abilities, but better" is only one theme of the Solar Exalted.

Which was the one we were talking about when I said the thing you were quoting and then opposing.


Uh. Page 189, Exalted 2e. Check it.

I realize that. However, I can use that same information as a counter argument. "Look!", I could say, "Essence Arrow Attack and Phantom Arrow Technique are its prerequisites, which involve doing Archery, but better, whereas Summoning the Loyal Bow has nothing to do with Archery - but rather to do with being an Archer, which is completely different."

Tavar
2011-01-27, 01:10 AM
By default setting, the people of the Air must hide their wings or be mistaken for mutants/beastmen. People of the Air, if you don't know, look like mortals with wings.


Yeah, creation's pretty zenophobic.

Kris Strife
2011-01-27, 01:28 AM
So, I just read Eagle Wing Style, and it sounds pretty much exactly like what Gohan said when he taught Videl to fly. I'm wondering if that was intentional. :smalltongue:

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-27, 05:30 AM
EDIT: Parallel discussion: Does anyone think it's too freaking difficult for Solars to fly? They get Eagle Wing Style, which is Ath 5, Ess 4, with three prerequisites that are rendered mostly useless once you actually get Eagle Wing Style. It's 4m,1wp, scene long, has an arbitrary distance-from-ground cap, and prohibits the use of two-handed weapons.

It's three prerequisites are Graceful Crane Stance, Spider-Foot Style and Feather-Foot Style, which are all Essence 2 and thus never rendered useless, since unlike an Essence 4 Charm, you can have them up indefinitely.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-27, 05:33 AM
But why would you need perfect balance when you can fly?

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-27, 05:41 AM
But why would you need perfect balance when you can fly?

Because it is scene-long, costs Willpower to use and Essence 4. At Essence 4, you can get Unparalleled Acumen Meditation and have all three Charms (plus Lightning Speed and Monkey Leap Technique if you have them) up indefinitely for a lower cost than the sum of all three. And you can stop your movement and use your grand daiklave at the same time.

Why would you need flight if no one else is flying, anyway? Maybe if you need to cross lava or something, but otherwise, perfect balance gets you the same amount of places as flight for cheaper.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-27, 05:46 AM
Flying is cooller?
Otherwise fair points.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-27, 05:49 AM
Flying is cooller?
Otherwise fair points.

I prefer function over form in most things, so I'll have to agree to disagree if that is your argument.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-27, 05:49 AM
In the case of function, you are certainly right.

Drascin
2011-01-27, 05:55 AM
Hmm... Heroic mortals, wielding special weapons made from the bodies of dead behemoths... it could work. Trick is, you would need an exalt to enchant the weapons with some form of sorcery to give the mortals a chance. Perhaps something to make the weapon better at killing the class of being it was made from, and armor that boosts DVs against the same... Also: all the monsters have very small accuracy pools.

Small accuracy pools? You've never been on the wrong side of a Diablos's Homing Charge, have you? The only thing that allows you to dodge that thing is the game-induced temprary invulnerabilty hax :smallwink:

But, in any case, as said, the problems are manyfold. First, an important point about Monhun weapons is that while they are near-magic, it's not their forger that makes them magic. It's the materials used, the fiery gullet of a fire wyvern giving your hammer fire powers, or the nimbleness of the Nargacuga getting imbued in the armor made from its skin. This doesn't jive much with Exalted's "you must have this much Essence to forge decent weapons" rollercoaster-like entry bar. Plus an Exalt can make the same thing with the terrible skypiercer of an Alatreon's head (which, for the noninitiated, is basically a Penta-Elemental Elemental Dragon) as with a chunk of orichalcum, which kind of hurts the conceit of it all a bit. Actually, on a practical sense, it'd be better to go with the Orichalcum or whatever - it's just going to look gaudy as hell, as the Magical materials are wont to. And of course, there's the attunement cost.

However, this is really the least bothersome part. Waive Attunements, make the Wyverian crafters into Mountain Folk, and works well enough.

No, the problem is, again, there's the annoying "mortals just lose at everything" attitude pervading all of Exalted's ruleset. There's entirely too many effects that don't so much as allow a save to mortals (especially among the Fae, which is a big problem if we're going to be fighting Behemoths, since Fae are generally the ones that make the behemoths). Monster Hunter is all about how normal humans, through arduous training, smart fighting, and balls of solid orichalcum, can overcome impressive monsters that could kill them wenty times over (fairly reflected on how you need a couple hundred hits to kill a monster that kills you in two). Exalted is mostly about how normal humans suck and you all but need magic to not trip on your own feet. This causes a bit of a themathic and mechanical clash, to put it mildly. It's probably going to take a fair deal of houseruling and plain ignoring a great deal of stuff, to be honest.

horngeek
2011-01-27, 05:56 AM
Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-27, 05:58 AM
But, in any case, as said, the problems are manyfold. First, an important point about Monhun weapons is that while they are near-magic, it's not their forger that makes them magic. It's the materials used, the fiery gullet of a fire wyvern giving your hammer fire powers, or the nimbleness of the Nargacuga getting imbued in the armor made from its skin. This doesn't jive much with Exalted's "you must have this much Essence to forge decent weapons" rollercoaster-like entry bar.

This does not seem to be a big problem, since a mortal with no Essence pool and an Essence rating of 1 can create artifacts up to 3 dots (it will take hell of a long time, and if he does it alone, he will need to find the exotic components himself, which is mighty dangerous, but still).

Lix Lorn
2011-01-27, 06:01 AM
Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).
Only when it's deliberate? No, that's a lie.
My DB, Cynis Aeris Saera, is essentially a non-evil, slutty version of Azula.

She is also the most awesome character I have. :smalleek: She does the roleplaying for me!

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-27, 06:05 AM
How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?Not too often, myself, but I obviously see how it can be done. It's mostly because the number of Exalts I've statted out myself can still be counted on one hand. :smalltongue:

But partially-due to my vision being blurry when I've taken my contact lenses out, having read your post, I feel the strangest desire to make an Exalt based off of Yotsuba. :smalltongue:

Drascin
2011-01-27, 06:14 AM
Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).

Generally, it's relatively deliberate when it happens - I have little problem in cribbing inspiration from anywhere at all, long as it's not a total clone. I've done a Zero-based alchemical (which, to be honest, was a short ride. The Alchemicals manual is swimming in Megaman references), and if I ever manage to get the stomach to play a Solar, it's going to be based off either Carmen Sandiego or Ferb Fletcher.


This does not seem to be a big problem, since a mortal with no Essence pool and an Essence rating of 1 can create artifacts up to 3 dots (it will take hell of a long time, and if he does it alone, he will need to find the exotic components himself, which is mighty dangerous, but still).

Oh, the craftsman wouldn't find the components himself. Really, Hunters and craftsmen have a symbiotic relationship. Hunters are the ones who go out and beat horrible monsters and expertly skin them - craftsmen then use those pieces to make stuff for the Hunters. Still, Wyverians do fit as Mountain Folk in any case.


But partially-due to my vision being blurry when I've taken my contact lenses out, having read your post, I feel the strangest desire to make an Exalt based off of Yotsuba. :smalltongue:

Yotsuba doesn't need no stinking Social Charms to make everyone's lives happier! :smallbiggrin:

Jokasti
2011-01-27, 09:04 AM
Incidentally, a question:

How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

I mean, in one game on these forums, one of my characters has a lot in common with Winry... but that's all. On the other hand, I'm itching to play a Night Caste based on Ezio Auditore da Firenze or Assassin from Fate/Stay Night (Tsubame Gaeshi is easy to do with Solar Melee, though).

Not too often to never. I can't remember a case except for one time I made a lawyer who ended up like Phoenix Wright? I've never played that game though so i'unno.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-27, 10:53 AM
I'm trying to make a Ghost-Blooded character, and I ran up against this in Scroll of Heroes: "Children of ghosts can learn Arcanoi just as their parents, but they suffer the same limitations as other God-Blooded. For example, Ghost-Bloods cannot usually reshape their flesh."

What exactly does that mean? Does it ban using Shifting Ghost-Clay Arcanoi on yourself? Does it ban using Pyre Smoke Form to become immaterial?


How often do you make a character and then go 'hey, I've just made [insert anime/movie/tv show character] as an Exalted!'?

Not often, but halfway through writing up a Twilight with Deliberate Cruelty, every healing-related artifact and hearthstone I could, and a Wrackstaff fluffed as a cane, I realized that he was basically House.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-27, 11:06 AM
I'm trying to make a Ghost-Blooded character, and I ran up against this in Scroll of Heroes: "Children of ghosts can learn Arcanoi just as their parents, but they suffer the same limitations as other God-Blooded. For example, Ghost-Bloods cannot usually reshape their flesh."

What exactly does that mean? Does it ban using Shifting Ghost-Clay Arcanoi on yourself? Does it ban using Pyre Smoke Form to become immaterial?

Basically, it means that Arcanoi depending on immaterial nature and corpus do not work on Ghost-blooded. So, you can use Pyre Smoke Form, but not Shifting Ghost-Clay arcanoi.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-27, 11:21 AM
I am officially a slave to my muse. So far I have a desire to homebrew:

A martial art style combining extreme muscle control with essence to do stuff like providing natural lethal/bashing soak and hardness.
A Yozi charm tree (And a few souls/demons) with a higher-power charm (Just for flavour so far) that basically makes history false.
A Warstrider-sized adamant daiklaive made from a piece of The Core.
A Soulsteel daiklaive forged from one of the Neverborn. (Rather brave, rather stupid Abyssal.)

Thoughts?

Lix Lorn
2011-01-27, 01:35 PM
I am officially a slave to my muse. So far I have a desire to homebrew:

A martial art style combining extreme muscle control with essence to do stuff like providing natural lethal/bashing soak and hardness.
So... Earth Dragon Style? :smalltongue:

A Yozi charm tree (And a few souls/demons) with a higher-power charm (Just for flavour so far) that basically makes history false.
Sounds headachey.

A Warstrider-sized adamant daiklaive made from a piece of The Core.
Awesome!

A Soulsteel daiklaive forged from one of the Neverborn. (Rather brave, rather stupid Abyssal.)
They are gonna HATE you. xD Plus how?

meschlum
2011-01-27, 01:50 PM
Flying 101:

a) Find a f(r)iendly Fair Folk Diplomat.
b) Give it gossamer (or mortals, or...)
c) Get your own Staff Grace from your f(r)iend
d) Have the f(r)iend turn it into a 1-dot Adjuration with Gossamer Winged Flight
e) Enjoy the ability to fly, per Wings mutation, without wings, for 1 commited mote.

f) If you really want to go further, be an Exalt, get a 2-dot Adjuration instead of 1-dot, and add Racing Dragon Speed for accelerated flight.

Feasible at Essence 2 (or 1)

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-27, 02:04 PM
A martial art style combining extreme muscle control with essence to do stuff like providing natural lethal/bashing soak and hardness.

There are martial arts that can do this kind of stuff, but it's not really an appropriate thing to base an entire style around (not that my opinion should stop you if you want to do this). Martial arts are supposed to do weird things that you can't access with your own charm tree.


A Yozi charm tree (And a few souls/demons) with a higher-power charm (Just for flavour so far) that basically makes history false.

That's a loooooot of homebrewing. What do you mean by "makes history false"?


A Warstrider-sized adamant daiklaive made from a piece of The Core.

The Core is the fetich soul or jouten of Autochthon. If you knock a piece off it, you're going to have bigger problems then figuring out how to make it into a daiklave.


A Soulsteel daiklaive forged from one of the Neverborn. (Rather brave, rather stupid Abyssal.)


Primordials and their ilk don't have souls.

They have people to do that for them.


a) Find a f(r)iendly Fair Folk Diplomat.

I have cunningly spotted the flaw in your plan. :smalltongue:

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-27, 02:07 PM
So... Earth Dragon Style? :smalltongue:
Was wondering if there was anything similar. Soz.


Sounds headachey.
It's more straightforward than it sounds. It doesn't rewrite history per se, but instead changes any document on the event, monument, piece of artwork and even people's memories of said event. However, a great honking crater or something will still be there, they'll just put it down to something else.


Awesome!
Exactly the point. Basically, even wielding this weapon declares ULTIMATE GENOCIDE!


They are gonna HATE you. xD Plus how?
Yes. I am worried. No wait, now I can turn my school into a shadowland! MWAHAHA! DIE, MORONS! And on a serious note, let's say it's the reason Resonance exists.

Tavar
2011-01-27, 02:10 PM
The Core is the fetich soul or jouten of Autochthon. If you knock a piece off it, you're going to have bigger problems then figuring out how to make it into a daiklave.
Well, there's a pretty big tradition of spirits giving parts of themselves into the creation of an artifact. Not going to be easy, by any means, but perhaps you can ask him about it.




Primordials and their ilk don't have souls.

They have people to do that for them.

Well, using part of the neverborn itself would certainly be an exotic component. Probably fit for an N/A artifact, all by itself(getting the piece, now that's the hard part.).



Also, anyone have a good idea for the name of an Earth Manse? It's supposed to be a hidden cavern, and either a Workshop manse or more likely an Atelier-Manse.

golentan
2011-01-27, 02:18 PM
As I remembered, Autocthon already had chunks of his core pulled out for artifact creation. He's got defense spirits there to keep people from just randomly pulling out bits of his brain, but the divine ministers do periodically approve the taking of small amounts of adamant from the great maker's mind for vital projects.

Tavar
2011-01-27, 02:23 PM
Just checking, since I lack the book, what does Repair 4 entail?

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-27, 02:27 PM
Just checking, since I lack the book, what does Repair 4 entail?

Not much. It means that if you find one lying around, it's probably going to require some repairs. It also means that some effects work differently for it. It does not, however, mean it needs maintenance.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-27, 02:42 PM
This is, however, no small ammount. While not exactly very dangerous to his health, it's widely agreed that the chunk of the Core that made the daiklaive is the reason Autochthon isn't waking up. However, they simply aren't sure how to reattach such a large shard without causing further damage to The Core. For example, they're not sure whether the Design Weavers will reattach it themselves or go autoimmune on it (It was made a long time ago).

golentan
2011-01-27, 02:42 PM
Just checking, since I lack the book, what does Repair 4 entail?

Requires Lore, Occult, and Craft 5 to repair and maintain without penalties, a resources three expenditure for the equipment and reagents to do so, a day of maintenance periodically (though I can't find the timescale on when it's required), and a difficulty 4 roll to fix serious damage.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-27, 03:02 PM
Basically, it means that Arcanoi depending on immaterial nature and corpus do not work on Ghost-blooded. So, you can use Pyre Smoke Form, but not Shifting Ghost-Clay arcanoi.

Thanks! So, going through walls but no Essence 1 hyper-awesome disguise power. Guess that's fair.

A couple more roughly-related questions:
1. Since Sidereals treat Throne Shadow Style charms as Sidereal charms rather than as CMA charms, could a Sidereal Half-Caste learn Throne Shadow Style?
2. The Merit that lets a mortal learn Terrestrial Circle Sorcery is 10 times as expensive as the one that lets a mortal learn Terrestrial Martial Arts. Both require Essence 3, a higher hurdle than I'd expect given that mortal Immaculate Monks with a bit of TMA knowledge are supposed to be relatively common. Does anyone else think this doesn't make much sense?
3. Has anyone written a toned-down version of Ivory Pestle Style? (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/12/22/ink-monkeys-vol-47-ivory-pestle-style.aspx) Because Whirling Pestle Kata is ridiculous. It looks like a first-choice purchase for anyone who can learn TMA.

Arcanoi
2011-01-27, 03:10 PM
2. The Merit that lets a mortal learn Terrestrial Circle Sorcery is 10 times as expensive as the one that lets a mortal learn Terrestrial Martial Arts. Both require Essence 3, a higher hurdle than I'd expect given that mortal Immaculate Monks with a bit of TMA knowledge are supposed to be relatively common. Does anyone else think this doesn't make much sense?


Terrestrial Martial Arts don't really let you do anything world-shaping. You're still a mortal, you're just more dangerous. Terrestrial Martial Arts, by and large, are almost entirely combat charms with no other applications.

Sorcery, on the other hand, lets you do all sorts of crap that mortals can't even dream of without it. You can still swing a sword without Even Blade Style, but you can't throw a swarm of razor-sharp butterflies without Death of Obsidian Butterflies.

Tavar
2011-01-27, 03:20 PM
Yeah. I'd say that mortals don't need a merit to learn martial arts. They have a hard enough time awakening essence and meeting the requirements.

Sorcery is a bit trickier, but I'd reduce the cost to what they pay to learn a spell, and toss in emerald countermagic as well. Still expensive and hard to get, and not incredibly useful when they start, but not as costly.

golentan
2011-01-28, 02:20 AM
I have never once required that merit to learn martial arts.

So, a question about demon summoning. Specifically the Thaumaturgical version. How adverse are demons to it really? I know the text reads that there's a heavy risk of attack, but are demons seriously upset by finding themselves *not* in malfeas and/or magically compelled to obey somebody. Heck, for many it might be their one and only shot at living out the century, and give them the opportunity to do so unmolested at the top of the local food chain so long as they stay careful about stepping on others toes.

There are some obvious violent exceptions you'd have to be an idiot to summon, but it just feels like the response should be less *DIE FOOLISH MORTAL FOR TROUBLING ME* and more *Happy dance I'm FREEEEEEEE!!!*

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-28, 02:35 AM
Alright, well, ponder this. I want to be able to fly. Athletics seems like the most direct route, but instead I take Medicine. I get a Medicine Excellency, Wound-Mending Care Technique, and Science of Mutation. Three charms, Medicine 5, Essence 4 minimum - fewer prerequisites than Eagle Wing. Now, not only can I stick wings on myself, so I can fly without all the restrictions given by Eagle Wing Style, permanently and with no cost, but I can also do so much else, not just with that charm itself, but with the two prerequisites compared to the three prerequisite for Eagle Wing Style which are rendered mostly redundant.

We kind of dropped this argument, but I finally got around to looking up Science of Mutation. It's an Essence 7 Charm. Yeah.


So, a question about demon summoning. Specifically the Thaumaturgical version. How adverse are demons to it really? I know the text reads that there's a heavy risk of attack, but are demons seriously upset by finding themselves *not* in malfeas and/or magically compelled to obey somebody. Heck, for many it might be their one and only shot at living out the century, and give them the opportunity to do so unmolested at the top of the local food chain so long as they stay careful about stepping on others toes.

There are some obvious violent exceptions you'd have to be an idiot to summon, but it just feels like the response should be less *DIE FOOLISH MORTAL FOR TROUBLING ME* and more *Happy dance I'm FREEEEEEEE!!!*

A couple reasons. Getting yanked out of your world and dumped into Creation all of a sudden must be disorienting as hell. A lot of demons are going to instinctively lash out.

The biggest reason, though, is that you're summoner is, well, your summoner. If you're unbound, you want to kill that person as quickly as possible to ensure that they can't bind you. Simple logic.

Xefas
2011-01-28, 02:44 AM
We kind of dropped this argument, but I finally got around to looking up Science of Mutation. It's an Essence 7 Charm. Yeah.

It had errata that changed its effects and pushed it down to Medicine 5, Essence 4. Scroll of Errata pg 125.

golentan
2011-01-28, 02:48 AM
A couple reasons. Getting yanked out of your world and dumped into Creation all of a sudden must be disorienting as hell. A lot of demons are going to instinctively lash out.

The biggest reason, though, is that you're summoner is, well, your summoner. If you're unbound, you want to kill that person as quickly as possible to ensure that they can't bind you. Simple logic.

Thaumaturgical summoners can't bind. Only bribe or threaten, and trying to kill them lets them activate the contest of wills ritual to banish you back, making it an unnecessary risk to your otherwise free reign.

And the demon isn't yanked out and dumped surreptitiously in the circle with no understanding of how in a moment of confusion. They get a five day heads up and hike to make it there.

So I don't see it as that simple still.

Reynard
2011-01-28, 07:11 AM
Thaumaturgical summoners can't bind. Only bribe or threaten, and trying to kill them lets them activate the contest of wills ritual to banish you back, making it an unnecessary risk to your otherwise free reign.

And the demon isn't yanked out and dumped surreptitiously in the circle with no understanding of how in a moment of confusion. They get a five day heads up and hike to make it there.

So I don't see it as that simple still.

Yeah, but that five days walk is through the Endless Desert.

Not exactly a pleasant place to trek through, especially against your will.

Jokasti
2011-01-28, 09:05 AM
What? That infernal travel agency lied to me!
But yeah, a five day walk through Cecylene isn't on their bucket lists. It's basically a "oh, you have five days to think about how the thaumaturge is going to use you this time. Let's think of ways to hurt him just in case that circle of salt isnt juuuust right.... Evisceratin', Beheadin'..."

tonberrian
2011-01-28, 09:13 AM
I have never once required that merit to learn martial arts.

So, a question about demon summoning. Specifically the Thaumaturgical version. How adverse are demons to it really? I know the text reads that there's a heavy risk of attack, but are demons seriously upset by finding themselves *not* in malfeas and/or magically compelled to obey somebody. Heck, for many it might be their one and only shot at living out the century, and give them the opportunity to do so unmolested at the top of the local food chain so long as they stay careful about stepping on others toes.

There are some obvious violent exceptions you'd have to be an idiot to summon, but it just feels like the response should be less *DIE FOOLISH MORTAL FOR TROUBLING ME* and more *Happy dance I'm FREEEEEEEE!!!*

Well, there's no reason that a demon can't do both.

Tavar
2011-01-28, 12:01 PM
Hmm. The tell exists in all of a lunars forms, and is more obvious in true forms. What happens when a Lunar is in their Animal true form?


Interesting idea for the Broken-Winged Crane's true nature.



Also, on the subject of the Broken-Winged Crane, Revlid from the White Wolf Forums wrote something that is so awesome that it deserves mention here, namely that the true nature of the Broken-Winged Crane is:
"...the Sixth Maiden. When Creation is returned to its rightful owners, when the Yozis play once more at the Games of Divinity, when the gods are shackled, rebound and demonized, when the Tainted Dragons march the land, when the Green Sun Princes, Red Moon Princesses and Black Star Viziers sit in attendance, when Autochthon has been crushed and the Underworld with him, when Sol has been broken and shattered, when Luna wages her futile guerilla war in the hopes of Gaia's return... The Maidens will sit about the Loom of Fate, each crippled in a different fashion, each kept in place by a starmetal chain forged from Sol's remains, each weaving the Loom back into its proper configuration. Holding the other end of these chains will be their youngest sister, the Sixth Maiden, gleefully subordinate to the Yozis. Rumours of her origins abound, and she does nothing to quell them - she is an ascended Black Star Vizier, she is the revived and congealed Fetich Souls of the Neverborn, she is the empowered daughter of the Scarlet Empress, she is the soulsteel brother of the Maidens, reforged within Szoreny's Mirrored Workshop. Ultimately, it matters little. She dances about the mad anti-causality of her existence, as the Broken-Winged Crane."

Kyeudo
2011-01-28, 12:07 PM
Well, from what I've heard, RotSE fixes the nature of the original Broken-Wing Crane as being written by the Scarlet Empress herself and all others are just a time-warped version of the original, copied through the causality-defying power of the Yozis millenia before it was actually penned.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-28, 01:44 PM
Thanks. Anyone have a hypothesis on whether Sidereal Half-Castes could learn Throne Shadow style since its charms count as Sidereal charms? I've got a concept for a Half-Caste raised as an orphan in an Immaculate monastery, who seemed to be a mortal with bizarre flashes of insight that really helped out the Dragon-Blooded students (via Sifu's Useful Fingers and Secret Lesson Revelation (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/12/25/ink-monkeys-vol-48-christmas-miracles.aspx)) until someone familiar with the Sidereals figured things out.

Also, has anyone run a non-serious Exalted game in a high school or college setting akin to Sigil Prep (http://www.sigilprep.com/)? Because I recently read this set of stories in which the Yozis are children in an asylum (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=St_Cyntherea%27s_Institute), and now I can't stop thinking of names like Yu-Shan Yuniversity, First and Forsaken Grammar, and The Malfeas Academy for Shut Up And Do What Malfeas Says.

Tavar
2011-01-28, 03:43 PM
If they count as charms native to that exalt type, I don't see why not.

And I think someone recruited for a game like that, but I'm not sure if anything came of it.

Any thoughts regarding what a Lunar's tell looks like in their animal-spirit shape? If it looks like anything at all?

Xefas
2011-01-28, 03:46 PM
I've got a concept for a Half-Caste raised as an orphan in an Immaculate monastery, who seemed to be a mortal with bizarre flashes of insight that really helped out the Dragon-Blooded students (via Sifu's Useful Fingers and Secret Lesson Revelation (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/12/25/ink-monkeys-vol-48-christmas-miracles.aspx)) until someone familiar with the Sidereals figured things out.

This may be problematic only because Half Castes lack a personal essence pool. All they have is peripheral (Scroll of Heroes pg 114 "In addition, Half Castes possess no personal essence pool, but only possess a peripheral essence pool"), which might be bad.


Also, has anyone run a non-serious Exalted game in a high school or college setting akin to Sigil Prep (http://www.sigilprep.com/)? Because I recently read this set of stories in which the Yozis are children in an asylum (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=St_Cyntherea%27s_Institute), and now I can't stop thinking of names like Yu-Shan Yuniversity, First and Forsaken Grammar, and The Malfeas Academy for Shut Up And Do What Malfeas Says.

Well, I actually drew up some ideas a little while ago for that sort of thing. Spoiler'd below. Obviously not comprehensive. Gotta finish the faculty, and write up places of interest, and detail sports (Blood Bowl chief among them), and class schedules and all that sort of thing. It's just a rough idea right now.

Long ago, at the conclusion of the Primordial War, there were twenty three defeated titans who begged for their lives at the feet of their conquerors rather than face death. At first, such a prospect seemed absurd, but the question arose of what the Exalted were to do after they finished reconstructing the shattered remnants of the world they had just laid waste to in the course of their battles.

Surely they would have palaces, and many harems, and go on epic adventures to the farthest reaches of reality and beyond. There was much discussion but, in the end, yes, these were the three things the Exalted truly wanted with their immortality and boundless power. Palaces, Harems, Adventure. And therein lay the problem. With so many harems, and so many adventures, when would they have time to raise their prestigious mountains of offspring? They certainly couldn't have tiny Half-Castes running around, cramping the style of their many palaces, and forcing their parents to use their free time teaching a new human life when they could otherwise be engaged fishing in the Deep Chaos or bungee jumping down that big hole in the Labyrinth.

And so it was that the Exalted exacted Surrender Oaths from the twenty three Primordials that still lived, slaying their king's Fetich Soul in the process, and transmuting them into the lowliest, most degrading form of life possible - High School Faculty.

The very fabric of existence yawned and tore apart as a new plane of being unfurled itself: Malfeas, the Public High School. Here, the young minds of Godbloods and Half-Castes would be molded into productive members of society (their bodies would be along for the ride, too, I suppose) so that their parents wouldn't have to take responsibility for them or their actions (and, for most female Exalts, the far more harrowing task of figuring out who the father was).

The Faculty

Malfeas, the Public High School: This fallen Primordial was twisted into an actual, living campus of flesh, bone, and brass. His body composes all of the structures beyond the inner border of Cecelyne, which can be difficult for many new students to get used to. Accordingly, he is also the janitor and groundskeeper.

Cecelyne, the Desert That You Must Walk Twenty Miles Uphill Through To Get To School Every Morning Which You Will One Day Lecture Your Kids About Because They Don't Know How Good They Have It: If you don't say the whole thing, you're mispronouncing her name and she gets very indignant about that. Cecelyne is the wasteland that separates Malfeas from the Dormitories, and no matter what form of transportation a student takes, or how fast they're moving, she always takes exactly 5 hours to traverse. First period starts at 8am sharp, which means students who do not wish to be tardy will have to wake up at 2am or so to get there on time.

As it is one of the first questions asked by freshman, no, you may not just sleep on campus. Cecelyne builds character.

Elloge, the Spherical Literature Professor: Students will have Elloge for Old Realm 101 as freshman, classical literature as sophomores, public speaking as juniors, and rhetoric as seniors. Despite being a sphere of pure madness, Elloge is rather popular among students for her laid back attitude. She is secretly an avid comic book collector, and will debate you into a gibbering shell of emptiness over which franchise is superior.

Hegra, the Typhoon of Visual Art Design (And Nightmares): Hegra teaches 2d Art to freshman (drawing/painting), history of art to sophomores, 3d Art to juniors (sculpting/film-making), and 4d and 5d art to seniors. After school, she runs the AV club and Art club, and every Calibration collaborates with Elloge to put on the School-wide Calibrationmas Play.

Kimbery, the Sea That Marched Against Your Lack of Appreciation for Home Economics: Anyone who has had an older sibling pass through Malfeas High will know not to sit in the front row of Ms. Kimbery's class, lest you increase your chances of becoming the Teacher's Pet - an occupation every holder has survived, but none of which have wished to. In addition to teaching Home Ec. 101 to freshman, and Culinary Arts 101 and 102 to sophomores and seniors respectively, she also presides over Drivers Ed. for juniors. One would think such a class wouldn't take a full school-year to learn but, by the end, students typically know how to parallel park an Indomitable Class Heavy Battlecruiser while doing a double helix off of a burning rooftop. Her appointment to this class is an awkward side effect of Sail being used for piloting.

She Who Lives In Her Name, the Principle of Mathematics: Inside her 99,997 spheres are everything you'll need to know about Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, and Trigonometry. And you'd better pay attention, because She doesn't appreciate repeating herself, yes you will use these things in real life, and no I cannot just shoot the information instantly into your brain with my mind bullets. Well, actually I could do that last one, but I enjoy watching you suffer.
I also planned for Yu-Shan and Autochthonia to be private schools, and the Underworld and the Wyld to be other public schools.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-28, 03:50 PM
I want to go there so badly. :smalleek:

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-28, 03:59 PM
Dibs on the Autochthonian Academy scholarship.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-28, 04:03 PM
I demand details on the Underworld campus.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-28, 04:09 PM
Here's a thought- that whole idea makes the ED the headmaster. :smalleek:

golentan
2011-01-28, 04:13 PM
I'm running a game set at the heptagram at the moment. Adventure, excitement, and really wild homework assignments.

The other seems a little too tongue in cheek for me. Not so good with those kinds of games.

Sanguine
2011-01-28, 05:02 PM
Well, I actually drew up some ideas a little while ago for that sort of thing. Spoiler'd below. Obviously not comprehensive. Gotta finish the faculty, and write up places of interest, and detail sports (Blood Bowl chief among them), and class schedules and all that sort of thing. It's just a rough idea right now.

Long ago, at the conclusion of the Primordial War, there were twenty three defeated titans who begged for their lives at the feet of their conquerors rather than face death. At first, such a prospect seemed absurd, but the question arose of what the Exalted were to do after they finished reconstructing the shattered remnants of the world they had just laid waste to in the course of their battles.

Surely they would have palaces, and many harems, and go on epic adventures to the farthest reaches of reality and beyond. There was much discussion but, in the end, yes, these were the three things the Exalted truly wanted with their immortality and boundless power. Palaces, Harems, Adventure. And therein lay the problem. With so many harems, and so many adventures, when would they have time to raise their prestigious mountains of offspring? They certainly couldn't have tiny Half-Castes running around, cramping the style of their many palaces, and forcing their parents to use their free time teaching a new human life when they could otherwise be engaged fishing in the Deep Chaos or bungee jumping down that big hole in the Labyrinth.

And so it was that the Exalted exacted Surrender Oaths from the twenty three Primordials that still lived, slaying their king's Fetich Soul in the process, and transmuting them into the lowliest, most degrading form of life possible - High School Faculty.

The very fabric of existence yawned and tore apart as a new plane of being unfurled itself: Malfeas, the Public High School. Here, the young minds of Godbloods and Half-Castes would be molded into productive members of society (their bodies would be along for the ride, too, I suppose) so that their parents wouldn't have to take responsibility for them or their actions (and, for most female Exalts, the far more harrowing task of figuring out who the father was).

The Faculty

Malfeas, the Public High School: This fallen Primordial was twisted into an actual, living campus of flesh, bone, and brass. His body composes all of the structures beyond the inner border of Cecelyne, which can be difficult for many new students to get used to. Accordingly, he is also the janitor and groundskeeper.

Cecelyne, the Desert That You Must Walk Twenty Miles Uphill Through To Get To School Every Morning Which You Will One Day Lecture Your Kids About Because They Don't Know How Good They Have It: If you don't say the whole thing, you're mispronouncing her name and she gets very indignant about that. Cecelyne is the wasteland that separates Malfeas from the Dormitories, and no matter what form of transportation a student takes, or how fast they're moving, she always takes exactly 5 hours to traverse. First period starts at 8am sharp, which means students who do not wish to be tardy will have to wake up at 2am or so to get there on time.

As it is one of the first questions asked by freshman, no, you may not just sleep on campus. Cecelyne builds character.

Elloge, the Spherical Literature Professor: Students will have Elloge for Old Realm 101 as freshman, classical literature as sophomores, public speaking as juniors, and rhetoric as seniors. Despite being a sphere of pure madness, Elloge is rather popular among students for her laid back attitude. She is secretly an avid comic book collector, and will debate you into a gibbering shell of emptiness over which franchise is superior.

Hegra, the Typhoon of Visual Art Design (And Nightmares): Hegra teaches 2d Art to freshman (drawing/painting), history of art to sophomores, 3d Art to juniors (sculpting/film-making), and 4d and 5d art to seniors. After school, she runs the AV club and Art club, and every Calibration collaborates with Elloge to put on the School-wide Calibrationmas Play.

Kimbery, the Sea That Marched Against Your Lack of Appreciation for Home Economics: Anyone who has had an older sibling pass through Malfeas High will know not to sit in the front row of Ms. Kimbery's class, lest you increase your chances of becoming the Teacher's Pet - an occupation every holder has survived, but none of which have wished to. In addition to teaching Home Ec. 101 to freshman, and Culinary Arts 101 and 102 to sophomores and seniors respectively, she also presides over Drivers Ed. for juniors. One would think such a class wouldn't take a full school-year to learn but, by the end, students typically know how to parallel park an Indomitable Class Heavy Battlecruiser while doing a double helix off of a burning rooftop. Her appointment to this class is an awkward side effect of Sail being used for piloting.

She Who Lives In Her Name, the Principle of Mathematics: Inside her 99,997 spheres are everything you'll need to know about Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, and Trigonometry. And you'd better pay attention, because She doesn't appreciate repeating herself, yes you will use these things in real life, and no I cannot just shoot the information instantly into your brain with my mind bullets. Well, actually I could do that last one, but I enjoy watching you suffer.
I also planned for Yu-Shan and Autochthonia to be private schools, and the Underworld and the Wyld to be other public schools.

That is Awesome.


Here's a thought- that whole idea makes the ED the headmaster. :smalleek:

Awesome.

I Kinda feel like Captain Awesome now, not sure how I feel about that.

tonberrian
2011-01-28, 06:40 PM
I Kinda feel like Captain Awesome now, not sure how I feel about that.

The answer is obvious - you should feel fantastic.

Actually, I mean awesome.

Sanguine
2011-01-28, 06:43 PM
The answer is obvious - you should feel fantastic.

Actually, I mean awesome.

Your right. Don't know what I was thinking.

a_humble_lich
2011-01-28, 07:31 PM
I'm running a game set at the heptagram at the moment. Adventure, excitement, and really wild homework assignments.

The other seems a little too tongue in cheek for me. Not so good with those kinds of games.

:smallfrown: I've been wanting to play/run a game in the Heptagram for a while now. I'm jealous.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-28, 07:51 PM
I'm starting to get jitters; tomorrow's really going to be the first time I STed Exalted. I mean, I've run Shadowrun, D&D, Paranoia, nWoD, and even Star Wars Saga Edition... but not Exalted. I'm sure I can do it and all, but for some reason, I'm just feeling nervous... :smalleek:

golentan
2011-01-29, 12:23 AM
:smallfrown: I've been wanting to play/run a game in the Heptagram for a while now. I'm jealous.

Hey, draw up a suitably convincing backstory and I can drop you in the game no problem. It's PbP and I've only got two players ATM, and if you can stick with it that'd be nice.

Tavar
2011-01-29, 12:47 AM
You have a link to this game?

golentan
2011-01-29, 01:06 AM
Sure. I'll PM you.

Tavar
2011-01-29, 02:50 AM
Is it possible to attack a weapon someone's wielding? Like, with the intention of destroying it?

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-29, 03:07 AM
I think that would be a called shot, and only appliciable with a beamklaive or a REALLY big, REALLY heavy weapon.

Kyeudo
2011-01-29, 03:33 AM
Is it possible to attack a weapon someone's wielding? Like, with the intention of destroying it?

Most weapons in Exalted are invulnerable to anything not specifically capable of destroying then. Earth Dragon Style and a few Terrestrial Charms are all that come to mind for dismantaling artifact weapons.

Now, mortal weapons can be destroyed by an Abyssal Charm or two and by beam weapons plus anything that can destroy artifacts. None are particularly useful.

Xefas
2011-01-29, 03:52 AM
Now, mortal weapons can be destroyed by an Abyssal Charm or two and by beam weapons plus anything that can destroy artifacts. None are particularly useful.

There's also an Infernal charm, Rebuking Impudent Arms, which works like a disarm attempt, but instead of disarming the weapon, it melts it into worthless bits of scrap. If the weapon is an artifact, it instead superheats it, dealing damage to the wielder if he continues to hold it and making it easier to knock it out of his hand later.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-29, 07:02 AM
Yet more homebrew ideas. Now, it's a martial arts style (Either Infernal or Lunar, but frowned upon in the latter) that can basically cause people's flesh to boil and their skeletons to explode. Nasty, gory stuff. Almost certainly Infernal now.

Tavar
2011-01-29, 01:53 PM
Right, sorry I wasn't clear. I meant attacking normal, non-artifact weapons. But thanks for the info.

Lord Raziere
2011-01-29, 09:42 PM
hey I got an idea.

a sweater. knitted from the Loom itself, threads of fate knitted into a sweater- what happens? would it be some legendary artifact or something? or what if a loom-weaved scarf? yea what happens clothing is weaved from the Loom itself? and what would happen if you wore them?

Xefas
2011-01-29, 09:49 PM
a sweater. knitted from the Loom itself, threads of fate knitted into a sweater- what happens? would it be some legendary artifact or something? or what if a loom-weaved scarf? yea what happens clothing is weaved from the Loom itself? and what would happen if you wore them?

I hear that the fates of men are warm indeed.

Reynard
2011-01-29, 10:05 PM
Alchemical Mass Combat. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOlz2ei4Yk)

Yes.

Xefas
2011-01-29, 10:33 PM
Alchemical Mass Combat. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOlz2ei4Yk)

Yes.

I can definitely see a Realm army lead by some disgruntled Dragonbloods riding out to rid the world of the invading communists who are almost certainly just here to steal our women and our capitalism and, in the distance, there is a Soulsteel Caste watching the superior force close in around his small contingent of Alchemicals.

He speaks but a single grim phrase, "Form the ball."

I also can't help but think the 3rd Matrix film could have learned a bit from this in incorporating more of the Smiths together for their climactic battle. :smallconfused:

IcarusWings
2011-01-30, 06:19 AM
If anyone's interested, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185458) game I'm wanting to play is recruiting for Players and an ST.

Drascin
2011-01-30, 06:39 AM
So, making a new character, and I'm finding out that making a Lunar crafter is a process full of enough pitfalls and grief to make one downright cry. Blah.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-30, 08:08 AM
Without any further ado, I present to you Chryikan, the Blade of Death Beyond Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10266297#post10266297). PEACH at your own peril.

Jokasti
2011-01-30, 11:45 AM
Making Martial Arts styles is fun! Just need to keep telling myself that.
Also gonna brew up an artifact weapon that can change between a Serpent Sting Staff and a Wrackstaff.

Primal Fury
2011-01-30, 12:59 PM
Yet more homebrew ideas. Now, it's a martial arts style (Either Infernal or Lunar, but frowned upon in the latter) that can basically cause people's flesh to boil and their skeletons to explode. Nasty, gory stuff. Almost certainly Infernal now.
I am horrified by this... yet somehow intrigued.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-30, 01:09 PM
Just as planned. That is the intended effect, yes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Gorn)

Primal Fury
2011-01-30, 01:12 PM
I hope we get to see it soon then.

golentan
2011-01-30, 05:25 PM
So, on the topic of Artifact N/As I've just done something crazy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10268956#post10268956). I'd appreciate feedback.

randomhero00
2011-01-30, 05:28 PM
So just curious. Does yall storyteller allow magic (circle casting?) Mine doesn't. He says its too complicated to figure on a wide scale and too over powered compared to the melee types (although I've seen insane melee types).

Sanguine
2011-01-30, 05:40 PM
So just curious. Does yall storyteller allow magic (circle casting?) Mine doesn't. He says its too complicated to figure on a wide scale and too over powered compared to the melee types (although I've seen insane melee types).

I assume you mean Sorcery? 'Cause otherwise a game without magic means Mortals only. Also using Sorcery(aside from a handful of spells) in combat is not a good idea unless you have people to do Defend Other actions on you. An Emerald Circle spell takes five ticks to shape, which admittedly isn't terrible, but it gives pretty much every enemy a chance to hit you and disrupt the spell. Sapphire takes ten ticks, every enemy will get a chance to disrupt you, most will get two, and some might get three or more. Solar will take fifteen ticks, if you pull that off in combat with no-one doing Defend Other on you that's some mighty impressive luck you have.

So no Sorcery isn't really that over powered, it is powerful but that is made up for in the huge Mote Cost and Shaping time. As for complicated, I never saw it as all that complicated; of course the same thing is true of the Combo rules...

Edit: Reading your post again, I realized you could be talking about Necromancy or Protocols, however the same principles apply.

tribble
2011-01-31, 12:19 AM
Is it possible to attack a weapon someone's wielding? Like, with the intention of destroying it?

I think Slayer Katars are custom made for this.


over powered compared to the melee types (although I've seen insane melee types).

Ah, Death of Obsidian Butterflies, you seem like you would be useful, but you never are.:smallamused:


On a different note, has anyone else had a character wind up performing a wholly different role than they intended? I built a high-compassion doctor with only a single dot of martial arts, and yet I somehow turned every fight I got into into RIDER KICK, and now I'm planning on having a Guts-style freakout upon reencountering a certain villain. Now, as the GM, I'm considering having a midnight I only introduced to have a Marilyn Manson reference be gay for the party.

Teln
2011-01-31, 10:08 AM
So no Sorcery isn't really that over powered, it is powerful but that is made up for in the huge Mote Cost and Shaping time. As for complicated, I never saw it as all that complicated; of course the same thing is true of the Combo rules...



Don't forget the Willpower costs as well. One temp Willpower for Terrestrial Circle spells, two for Sapphire, three for Solar.

golentan
2011-01-31, 12:37 PM
I think the point is we all agree sorcery is sub-par for combat. Though it can be bleeping awesome for non-combat purposes.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-31, 01:05 PM
I think the point is we all agree sorcery is sub-par for combat. Though it can be bleeping awesome for non-combat purposes.

I'm hopeful that the errata will change that, eventually, so I can use my necromantic powers to kill people directly, instead of indirectly.

Jokasti
2011-01-31, 01:10 PM
I'm hopeful that the errata will change that, eventually, so I can use my necromantic powers to kill people directly, instead of indirectly.

That's what charms are for.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-31, 01:17 PM
I'm hopeful that the errata will change that, eventually, so I can use my necromantic powers to kill people directly, instead of indirectly.

Is Crypt Bolt insufficient?

Speaking of which, since improvised weapons are form weapons for Dark Messiah Style, could you use Martial Arts with thrown improvised weapons if you use DMS? If so, there seems to be some lovely synergy between Abyssal Throwing and DMS, and maybe some with Night Breeze Style.

Leeham
2011-01-31, 02:15 PM
I'd say so. Solars get to throw people at other people as part of Solar Hero style, so why shouldn't an abyssal get to throw a yeddim?

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-31, 02:42 PM
Just wondering; what possibilities are there for time travel in Exalted? I suppose the Loom would be amongst the most promising methods, but would that be actual time travel, or more like the Pensive of Harry Potter?

Arcanoi
2011-01-31, 02:45 PM
There are none. Time-Travel is one of the Things You Cannot Do.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-31, 02:45 PM
Just wondering; what possibilities are there for time travel in Exalted? I suppose the Loom would be amongst the most promising methods, but would that be actual time travel, or more like the Pensive of Harry Potter?

You can travel into the future, one second at a time. You can also put yourself in a place where time flows faster or slower, if you can find or create one. Other than that, you cannot really travel through time.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-31, 02:50 PM
Right. Anyway, any ideas on when (or if) you're gonna get those other schoolground homebrews up, Xefas?

golentan
2011-01-31, 02:54 PM
There are a couple, weird exceptions with extremely limited applications that have to do with malfeas. In malfeas, if something happens you don't like and you get to a sympathetic yozi and convince them to help you out within 5 days they can sort of undo it but not really. But you don't travel through time, the event just never happened. But only to you.

Also, you can send a message back in time 5 days by summoning a demon. Kind of-ish.

But yeah. Actions have consequences and all that, and no time travel.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-31, 02:54 PM
EDIT: Plus Sidereals have a couple Charms where Fate rearranges itself so what just happened didn't happen, because you were in a different room at the time, that Fire Aspect stabbed himself, and the scorch marks on you are from a grilling accident. But you can't change much.

On the throwing, I was thinking of making a rather dim Dusk Caste brawler who's firmly convinced that his actions are somehow for the good of Creation, and has a cult that mistakes his pronouncements like "We must unmake the world to save it!" and "Only by fighting can we achieve peace!" for wisdom instead of a poor grasp of causality. Name-wise, I'm torn between Shining Onyx Hammer and Impenetrable Meat Bulwark.

Also on throwing, I was rereading the Dawn Solution and noticed you could combo Blind Impulse Strike and Sky Breaker Throw. And they're triggered by social attacks. At Essence 6, you can reflexively throw someone on the other side of Creation into Malfeas for writing you a letter, for 12m 2wp. The more high-essence Solar Charms I see, the more I think Kejak was right.

Xefas
2011-01-31, 03:04 PM
Right. Anyway, any ideas on when (or if) you're gonna get those other schoolground homebrews up, Xefas?

Wait, what? Was I supposed to be working on that? I've been doing other things in my leisure time, like playing Civ5, working on a sidereal martial art, and brainstorming what the groundwork would look like for Burning Exalted. But, if that was genuinely interesting to some of you, I suppose I can allot some time to that too.

Cyborg Mage
2011-01-31, 03:08 PM
It's no pressure or anything, it just seems like a cool idea. And yeah, I play Civ V myself. My perception of the passage of time is deader than ever.

Teln
2011-01-31, 04:24 PM
Speaking about Sidereal MAs, do you people have any tips for making one? I've been wanting to do something with Prayer Pieces for a while, and then this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MIB) found its way in there somehow (Warning, TV Tropes link!). I'm brimming with ideas, but I've got no clue how to translate them into crunch.

Jokasti
2011-01-31, 04:27 PM
Misho is a time traveler. That's why he doesn't remember anything. All his memories are from the future, and he hasn't experienced them yet.

SurlySeraph
2011-01-31, 05:06 PM
Speaking about Sidereal MAs, do you people have any tips for making one?

In short, carefully.

High-Essence effects tend to be a bit crazy, and it's generally agreed that most SMA are overpowered even by those standards. Sapphire Veil of Passion Style (from Glories of the Most High) is generally agreed to be the best-balanced SMA; I'm not sure why. Obsidian Shards of Infinity is generally considered the worst-balanced*, though the capstone of Charcoal March of Spiders could theoretically be used to kill everyone in Creation instantly.

The easiest way to make sure anything is balanced is to ask others to check it; I've homebrewed things with glaring problems that I never would have noticed. Post it here, and maybe on the rpg.net and White Wolf forums when you've gotten a draft of it or a good sense of where you're going with it. Here, I'd say the main things to look for are:
1. Don't put in something that beats perfect defenses. Maaybe have some unavoidable effect, but never make it completely impossible to avoid an actual hitting-person-with-a-weapon attack, because it's easy to make any hit lethal.
2. Don't let the Perfect Defenses be significantly better than the Solar PDs in the core book. Somewhat cheaper or with a less-frequently-applicable flaw of invulnerability might be acceptable. Might.
3. SMAs are about messing with reality, not just about punching (or shooting) people. Don't be afraid to make it weird.
4. Don't let it make someone unassailable.
4.a. Scene-length perfect defenses are appealing to include, but if you include one it needs to have a surcharge for each attack you block, or a gaping hole that makes it not really perfect at all, or something. Too much invincibility is not good design.
4.b. Be careful about reducing costs, and be careful about giving out any benefits, especially perfect effects, especially perfect defenses, for free. Things that reduce mote costs or help you gain back motes and willpower can be quite abusable.

*Scene-length perfect defense that also gives you a chance at an unexpected attack every time you're attacked, with negligible drawback; scene-length perfect defense that redirects the attacks to new targets and functions as long as anyone can see you; making as many as 36 clones of yourself with pretty much all your capabilities for 2m each; all your martial arts charms are free if you have a big mirror close by

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-31, 05:21 PM
4.a. Scene-length perfect defenses are appealing to include, but if you include one it needs to have a surcharge for each attack you block, or a gaping hole that makes it not really perfect at all, or something. Too much invincibility is not good design.How about a scene-length perfect against a single target? As in, "I kick on this Charm, and until the end of the scene, it is not within Exalt Bob's ability to hit me. But against Exalt Steve, I have to defend normally." Or is that still too good? :smallconfused: If it still needs to be weaker than that, maybe link it to an Ability chosen at the time of activation, so Exalt Bob's Martial Arts attacks are perfectly parried, but his Archery/Melee/Thrown ones are not...

SurlySeraph
2011-01-31, 05:41 PM
That sounds like a pretty reasonable gaping hole to me, yeah. Groups or people with minions are still a threat, and even lone enemies might be able to get around it via semantics and shapeshifting, Black Mirror Shintai, certain Sidereal Charms, or suchlike.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-31, 08:29 PM
Speaking about Sidereal MAs, do you people have any tips for making one? I've been wanting to do something with Prayer Pieces for a while, and then this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MIB) found its way in there somehow (Warning, TV Tropes link!). I'm brimming with ideas, but I've got no clue how to translate them into crunch.

I went over this earlier with something else, but this fits better as a Celestial Style. SMAs deal with wielding concepts as a weapon and lens to view Creation through. Love, travel, dreams, and so on. You could maybe do something interesting as a style (running with the MIB theme) with the concept of anonymity, but that seems a bit outside the scope of what you're proposing.


In short, carefully.

High-Essence effects tend to be a bit crazy, and it's generally agreed that most SMA are overpowered even by those standards. Sapphire Veil of Passion Style (from Glories of the Most High) is generally agreed to be the best-balanced SMA; I'm not sure why.

Short version? Someone who knows how the mechanics work wrote it. Dean Shomshak is a great guy, and I have nothing but respect for him, but the Scroll of the Monk has holes like a piece of swiss cheese in a rat cage.


The easiest way to make sure anything is balanced is to ask others to check it; I've homebrewed things with glaring problems that I never would have noticed. Post it here, and maybe on the rpg.net and White Wolf forums when you've gotten a draft of it or a good sense of where you're going with it.

This, pretty much. Have others check it over. Exalted can be a hard system to homebrew for.

Tavar
2011-01-31, 08:43 PM
How about a scene-length perfect against a single target? As in, "I kick on this Charm, and until the end of the scene, it is not within Exalt Bob's ability to hit me. But against Exalt Steve, I have to defend normally." Or is that still too good? :smallconfused:

I'd say it's okay if you attach a rider that while that charm is active, you can't use any other charm with a flaw of invulnerability.

Jokasti
2011-01-31, 08:44 PM
I'm going to attempt to ST an IRL game soon, and I was thinking about how I could have both an online part for the majority of the game, but meeting in person for that tabletop feel and for combat. Has anyone done real life Exalted, as opposed to PbP? How has that worked out for you? It seems like some of the longer winded characters need time for their mortal players to think up epic speeches, to me at least.

Xefas
2011-01-31, 08:58 PM
Has anyone done real life Exalted, as opposed to PbP?

I have.


How has that worked out for you?

My previous girlfriend was, secretly to everyone else in the group, sexxing everyone else in the group. Y'know, IRL. Take that as you will. (I haven't found the mechanic that this is an emergent property of, yet, though [this is game design humor])

Tavar
2011-01-31, 08:59 PM
Eh. Doing a campaign right now, and honestly, I like the PBP better. Even for combat.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-31, 09:16 PM
Has anyone done real life Exalted, as opposed to PbP?All three of the games I've been in/run have been IRL.

How has that worked out for you?Very well. :smallsmile:

Tavar
2011-01-31, 09:27 PM
Might just be the group. Some of them....they aren't that into mechanics.

Xefas
2011-01-31, 09:28 PM
Very well. :smallsmile:

Well isn't that nice for you.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/LigierPonyBitter.png

tonberrian
2011-01-31, 09:34 PM
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/LigierPonyBitter.png

This is ten shades of green awesome.

a_humble_lich
2011-01-31, 09:37 PM
The first game of Exalted that I played was in real life and it went well. However, it was a very mechanics free sort of game. There was almost no combat, and sessions could go by without any dice rolling at all. Part of that is our group though, not the most action oriented.

Kyeudo
2011-01-31, 09:47 PM
My previous girlfriend was, secretly to everyone else in the group, sexxing everyone else in the group. Y'know, IRL. Take that as you will. (I haven't found the mechanic that this is an emergent property of, yet, though [this is game design humor])

All I can say is: Ouch. :smalleek:

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-01, 05:31 AM
You know, still reading Graceful Wicked Masques, and I gotta say, for some of this stuff, one just has to take a step back and look at it again.

For example, "Ravishing the Created Form." You dramatically reveal a part of yourself that you were concealing, and this startles and hypnotizes the target?

Wow, just wow. :smalleek: I mean, that's practically made for squick. :smalltongue:

horngeek
2011-02-01, 05:35 AM
Or it could be this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vwmDAUHq2o&feature=related). :smalltongue:

SurlySeraph
2011-02-01, 11:28 AM
I've been working on the homebrew SMA I mentioned. It's now about the cosmic principle of Connection using the constellations as a lens, much like CMoS is about the principle of Consumption using the Pattern Spiders as a lens. Form weapons will probably be rope darts, fighting chains, and nunchaku; it'll require at least 2 dots in Occult and at least one degree in Astrology as complementary abilities. I'd like feedback on the first two Charms I've written, especially whether their mote costs sound about right.

All Fists Under Heaven
Cost: 6m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4;
Type: Simple (Speed 5, DV -2)
Keywords: Compulsion, War
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None
For a moment, the Sidereal holds every weapon on the battlefield. He can force a number of mortals up to his Occult + Degree in astrology (maximum 8) to launch a coordinated attack against a target of his choice. None of the attackers may be more than the Sidereal's Essence x10 in yards away from another, and all of them must have a weapon capable of hitting their assigned target.
The Sidereal must succeed on a Charisma + War roll at a difficulty equal to half the number of participants in the group rounded down, as usual for a coordinated attack. This is an unnatural mental influence that each target can resist by paying 1 wp; each participant who resists doesn't contribute to the difficulty of the Charisma + War roll. If it needs to be said, no attack occurs if every participant resists.
In Mass Combat, the Sidereal can instead force any unit with a Magnitude up to his Degree in astrology (maximum 3) to make a single attack against a target of his choice if he succeeds on a Charisma + War roll at a difficulty equal to the Magnitude + Drill of the unit. The unit's leader may resist by paying 2 wp.
Enhanced: A Sidereal may work this effect on a number of mortals up to his total dots in House of Battles colleges (maximum 25), or a mass combat unit with a Magnitude up to his highest dots in a House of Battles college (maximum 5).

Lying Oracle's Neyartha
Cost: 4m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4;
Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: All Fists Under Heaven
Any good liar knows that truth and falsehood, knowing and not knowing, are intimately connected. Any Resplendent Firmament stylist knows that it takes surprisingly little effort to take hold of one and swing the other around like a flail. The martial artist grips a fact or negation of fact, imagines its antithesis, and links the two with a flexible chain of equivocation and paradox, overlaying the resulting chain of Essence with her weapon or arm. This Charm encompasses two techniques; the Sidereal chooses which of the two to use each time she activates this charm. It supplements a single attack, and also provides a non-action benefit.
If she chooses to hold truth and strike with falsehood, she may attempt a Perception + Awareness roll to detect any invisible, immaterial, or otherwise undetected opponents, adding bonus successes equal to her Degree in astrology (maximum 3). In addition, her attack becomes unexpected, and she can choose her target after making the Awareness roll.
If she chooses to hold falsehood and strike with truth, she may attempt to instantly reestablish surprise with bonus successes equal to her Degree in astrology (maximum 3) on the Dexterity + Stealth roll. In addition, her attack (which takes place after she attempts to reestablish surprise) ignores Hardness and gains the Piercing tag.
The bonus successes this Charm provides count towards the normal limit on dice added by Charms.
Enhanced: A Sidereal may instead gain bonus successes equal to her Martial Arts + highest dots in a House of Secrets college (maximum 10) on the Awareness or Stealth roll.

Kyeudo
2011-02-01, 12:10 PM
All Fists Under Heaven
Cost: 6m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4;
Type: Simple (Speed 5, DV -2)
Keywords: Compulsion, War
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None
For a moment, the Sidereal holds every weapon on the battlefield. He can force a number of mortals up to his Occult + Degree in astrology (maximum 8) to launch a coordinated attack against a target of his choice. None of the attackers may be more than the Sidereal's Essence x10 in yards away from another, and all of them must have a weapon capable of hitting their assigned target.
The Sidereal must succeed on a Charisma + War roll at a difficulty equal to half the number of participants in the group rounded down, as usual for a coordinated attack. This is an unnatural mental influence that each target can resist by paying 1 wp; each participant who resists doesn't contribute to the difficulty of the Charisma + War roll. If it needs to be said, no attack occurs if every participant resists.
In Mass Combat, the Sidereal can instead force any unit with a Magnitude up to his Degree in astrology (maximum 3) to make a single attack against a target of his choice if he succeeds on a Charisma + War roll at a difficulty equal to the Magnitude + Drill of the unit. The unit's leader may resist by paying 2 wp.
Enhanced: A Sidereal may work this effect on a number of mortals up to his total dots in House of Battles colleges (maximum 25), or a mass combat unit with a Magnitude up to his highest dots in a House of Battles college (maximum 5).


I think you need to drop the Enhanced keyword from this. The Enhanced keyword only belongs on the Hero styles, not on Sidereal Styles.

I also think this is a little on the low end of power for an Essence 4 effect. I suggest the following: Mortals just plain can't resist the attack, supernatural beings with an Essence less than the Sidereal's Essence can be compelled to attack but may pay Willpower to resist, the Sidereal joins in the coordinated attack and makes a single attack himself, and get rid of the maximum number of participants. If you can get 13 mortals near an Essence 10 Exalt in combat, you deserve to get all of their help.



Lying Oracle's Neyartha
Cost: 4m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4;
Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: All Fists Under Heaven
Any good liar knows that truth and falsehood, knowing and not knowing, are intimately connected. Any Resplendent Firmament stylist knows that it takes surprisingly little effort to take hold of one and swing the other around like a flail. The martial artist grips a fact or negation of fact, imagines its antithesis, and links the two with a flexible chain of equivocation and paradox, overlaying the resulting chain of Essence with her weapon or arm. This Charm encompasses two techniques; the Sidereal chooses which of the two to use each time she activates this charm. It supplements a single attack, and also provides a non-action benefit.
If she chooses to hold truth and strike with falsehood, she may attempt a Perception + Awareness roll to detect any invisible, immaterial, or otherwise undetected opponents, adding bonus successes equal to her Degree in astrology (maximum 3). In addition, her attack becomes unexpected, and she can choose her target after making the Awareness roll.
If she chooses to hold falsehood and strike with truth, she may attempt to instantly reestablish surprise with bonus successes equal to her Degree in astrology (maximum 3) on the Dexterity + Stealth roll. In addition, her attack (which takes place after she attempts to reestablish surprise) ignores Hardness and gains the Piercing tag.
The bonus successes this Charm provides count towards the normal limit on dice added by Charms.
Enhanced: A Sidereal may instead gain bonus successes equal to her Martial Arts + highest dots in a House of Secrets college (maximum 10) on the Awareness or Stealth roll.

First, I again think the Enhanced keyword is inappropriate here. Second, normally bonus successes do not count towards Charm dice limits. The Second Excellency is sort of an exception to the rule. Third, the first effect is very potent. Automatic unexpected attacks are lethal against anyone who does not have a paranoia Combo ready to roll.

Overall, very flavorful Charms. Going to write your own Sutra for these?

Tavar
2011-02-01, 12:19 PM
Maybe reducing the difficulty of the Cha+War roll would be a good idea as well.

EDIT:
Two homebrewed knacks. Are there any glaring mechanical problems with them? Also, trying to decide what the prerequisites should be.

Swarm of One Essence 3.
Luna is not called the Many-Faced idly, and her stewards can exceed even her limitations. This knack allows the Steward to expend an additional 3 motes an one temporary Willpower when taking an animal form as large as a medium sized dog, though if taking a spirit shape the Lunar ignores the extra cost. In either case, the Lunar splits into a maximum of (essencex2) copies of the animal, with the Lunar's mind spread through all of them. These copies are somewhat autonomous, and actions that any given copy takes don't apply to the others regarding Flurries or DV penalties. All copies share the same essence pool, and any copy activating a charm counts as all the copies activation. But charms with a duration of one action or instant must be activated separately for each individual copy for any benefit to be gained, while those with a duration of indefinite, scene, or more than one action can be activated for the entire swarm by spending 1 temporary Willpower surcharge. When taking this form, every copy has virtual health levels equal to (Lunar's number of -0 to -4 levels/number of copies, rounded down). Damage is dealt to the Lunar's normal health track, but every time the number of health levels lost becomes greater than the number of virtual health levels of any one copy, one copy falls. If the damage is lethal or aggravated, the copy disappears. If it is bashing, it falls to the ground, inactive. More damage done to that converts it's virtual health levels, and the corresponding ones on the Lunar's health track, to Lethal damage. If bashing damage is healed, the copy returns to consciousness, and rejoins the battle on that tick. When ending the knack, if any remaining copies are more than (essence) yards, those copies disappear, dealing 1 unsoakable level of damage per copy. The Lunar can use knacks with this charm, but all copies must change shape, and the shape taken must be a valid form for this knack. Otherwise, all copies but one disappear, with that copy changing normally, and taking damage as applicable.

Herd of One
Essence 4, , Swarm of One.
This knack works as it's prerequisite, but can be used on any valid beast the Lunar knows; size is not an issue.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-01, 02:51 PM
For whatever reason, I've started wondering what a post-apocalyptic setting where Autochthon literally fell out of the sky would be like. Thoughts?

Mr.Bookworm
2011-02-01, 02:57 PM
Squishy.

Autochthon is about the size of Creation.


Two homebrewed knacks. Are there any glaring mechanical problems with them? Also, trying to decide what the prerequisites should be.

I'm not good with Knacks, but they look okay to me. Wasn't there already a swarm Knack in DotFA, though? Or am I thinking of something else.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-01, 03:06 PM
Then again, neither entity is perfectly flat. Sure would be a lot of wreckage, but I'm not exactly sure all of Creation's inhabitants would be dead.

Tavar
2011-02-01, 03:08 PM
Huh. I don't have regular access to DotFA, but I don't think I saw it in there.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-01, 03:54 PM
Isn't Autochthonia tube-shaped, like an O'Neill cylinder? If I'm right in thinking that, you could do something like dropping Autochthonia on top of the Elemental Pole of Earth and displacing it, causing relatively modest squishing destruction outside the Blessed Isle but probably massively screwing up geomancy, probably causing lots of earthquakes and general instability, and turning Earth Elementals across Creation steampunky.


I think you need to drop the Enhanced keyword from this. The Enhanced keyword only belongs on the Hero styles, not on Sidereal Styles.

Can do. I was thinking of adding a College-based benefit to each one, but I have no problem dropping that.


I also think this is a little on the low end of power for an Essence 4 effect. I suggest the following: Mortals just plain can't resist the attack, supernatural beings with an Essence less than the Sidereal's Essence can be compelled to attack but may pay Willpower to resist, the Sidereal joins in the coordinated attack and makes a single attack himself, and get rid of the maximum number of participants. If you can get 13 mortals near an Essence 10 Exalt in combat, you deserve to get all of their help.

Makes sense to me. What about making the Cha + War roll unnecessary, letting the Sid join in, and compelling supernatural beings as you described, but still capping the number of participants?


First, I again think the Enhanced keyword is inappropriate here. Second, normally bonus successes do not count towards Charm dice limits. The Second Excellency is sort of an exception to the rule. Third, the first effect is very potent. Automatic unexpected attacks are lethal against anyone who does not have a paranoia Combo ready to roll.

I'll have the bonus successes not count then. Should I allow a roll to avoid the unexpected attack rather than making it automatically unexpected?


Overall, very flavorful Charms. Going to write your own Sutra for these?

Thanks! I'm planning to write my own Sutra; I'm not much of a poet, but it should be fun.

Xefas
2011-02-01, 04:01 PM
If I'm right in thinking that, you could do something like dropping Autochthonia on top of the Elemental Pole of Earth and displacing it, causing relatively modest squishing destruction outside the Blessed Isle but probably massively screwing up geomancy, probably causing lots of earthquakes and general instability, and turning Earth Elementals across Creation steampunky.

...and breaking the Omphalos, and murdering everyone with a tide of Fair Folk that makes the Balorian Crusade look like one of those singing telegraph guys.

(EDIT: Which, admittedly, having a horde of Alchemicals to help with that could be awesome. Especially if some of them have that God-Machine Protocol that allows you to turn huge amounts of Fair Folk into Mountain Folk.)

Jokasti
2011-02-01, 04:53 PM
...and breaking the Omphalos, and murdering everyone with a tide of Fair Folk that makes the Balorian Crusade look like one of those singing telegraph guys.

(EDIT: Which, admittedly, having a horde of Alchemicals to help with that could be awesome. Especially if some of them have that God-Machine Protocol that allows you to turn huge amounts of Fair Folk into Mountain Folk.)

So quickly we forget Gethamane. Tsk tsk.

Tavar
2011-02-01, 05:04 PM
Noooo. Obviously you want to drop him on Gem. I'm pretty sure there's a rule about that somewhere.

Xefas
2011-02-01, 05:06 PM
So quickly we forget Gethamane. Tsk tsk.

Genn Greymane? :smallconfused:

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/180px-King_Genn_Greymane_TCG.jpg

Reynard
2011-02-01, 05:25 PM
Gethamane, the city which is one big Dwarf Fortress reference.

Xefas
2011-02-01, 05:39 PM
Gethamane, the city which is one big Dwarf Fortress reference.

Sounds like good times.

So, any of you guys have enough dots in Savant to be familiar with Exalted 1e? Wuxalted makes reference to a trait called "Nature", which allows you to regain points of Willpower whilst acting in accordance with it. It sounds a bit like a Motivation.

(As a corollary, anyone interested in a Wuxalted game? It conveniently circumvents my surrender oaths to never run a PbP Exalted game ever again.)

Drascin
2011-02-01, 05:57 PM
Well, I'm faced with a conundrum. I've been granted permission by my ST to own one of these (http://images.wikia.com/monsterhunter/images/4/4b/Jinouga.jpg) puppies in an Exalted game. But now the question is, how to model it and purchase it with my dots. We'd talked about making it a behemoth, and it seemed the best idea... until I noticed that little sentence that says Behemoths have the stats of their attuned handlers. Which being that this is going to be a beast owned by a spindly little sorcerer, is not an option.

This leaves me wondering how to model it, or if I just will have to make a statblock from nowhere via eyeballing it with my crappy knowledge of Exalted mechanics... suggestions would be welcome.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-01, 06:12 PM
...until I noticed that little sentence that says Behemoths have the stats of their attuned handlers...Their stats are based off yours, then they get a bunch of bonus stats, and then you can stack mutations on top of that.

Drascin
2011-02-01, 06:19 PM
Their stats are based off yours, then they get a bunch of bonus stats, and then you can stack mutations on top of that.

They get 15-18 Mutation points for everything. This is going to be the pet of a Strength 1 crafter and sorcerer. I'd have to spend nearly all the points just on the physical stats.

Plus, they also share abilities. And somehow, the behemoth being able to speak three languages fluently (due to sharing Linguistics dots) and being more knowledgeable than your average savant (Lore 5, Occult 5) strikes me as kind of odd :smalltongue:

WalkingTarget
2011-02-01, 06:27 PM
So, any of you guys have enough dots in Savant to be familiar with Exalted 1e? Wuxalted makes reference to a trait called "Nature", which allows you to regain points of Willpower whilst acting in accordance with it. It sounds a bit like a Motivation.

Nature was a trait carried over from oWoD that was supplanted by Motivation in the Second Edition. As opposed to Motivation, which were largely invented by the individual players and tend to be a sentence that describes a character's driving goal, a Nature was generally an Archetype that the character falls into and there's a list given in the book.

Architects get Willpower when they accomplish some significant goal.
Bravos when they make somebody else back down.
Bureaucrats when they resolve a problem by following procedure.
etc.

There were, like, 20 of them.

Jokasti
2011-02-01, 06:44 PM
Gethamane, the city which is one big Dwarf Fortress reference.

And the backup EPoE.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-01, 07:06 PM
I'd have to spend nearly all the points just on the physical stats.Not necessarily - IIRC, a lot of the Charms later in the book can serve as mutations, so you can literally give it the ability to always succeed on a Dex+Martial Arts+Bite Specialty roll, and other such things.


Plus, they also share abilities. And somehow, the behemoth being able to speak three languages fluently... strikes me as kind of oddWhy is that? :smallconfused: It's a behemoth, not a mindless animal. Isn't it more silly that a yeddim can sneak, or how a Strix has about the same MDV as most starting characters, or how all these animals seem to be able to reconstruct crime scenes? :smallconfused:

Drascin
2011-02-01, 07:25 PM
Not necessarily - IIRC, a lot of the Charms later in the book can serve as mutations, so you can literally give it the ability to always succeed on a Dex+Martial Arts+Bite Specialty roll, and other such things.

Only against things that don't either use magic or, especially, that don't stunt. Given this is a PbP game, where near-everything is at least slightly stunted by necessity of the medium...

And Dexterity isn't the thing that worries me. It's Strength. Again, this thing is going to be owned by a Strength 1 Stamina 2 sorcerer. A monster the size of a bus with piddly strength and Stamina is just not right, which is why I'd need to spend nearly all my points in them.


Why is that? :smallconfused: It's a behemoth, not a mindless animal. Isn't it more silly that a yeddim can sneak, or how a Strix has about the same MDV as most starting characters, or how all these animals seem to be able to reconstruct crime scenes? :smallconfused:

Mostly because I had not wanted a copy of my character, only bigger, but a complement, a pet and extension and even tool, not just a mirror with spikes. The pet part especially.

Also because, well, it's based on something that is more of an enlightened animal with elemental power than a contender in the contest for smartest people in the world. It just would feel wrong to have it be a genius on the peak of human capacity, simply because I am and he gets it by resonance.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-01, 07:26 PM
...and breaking the Omphalos, and murdering everyone with a tide of Fair Folk that makes the Balorian Crusade look like one of those singing telegraph guys.

(EDIT: Which, admittedly, having a horde of Alchemicals to help with that could be awesome. Especially if some of them have that God-Machine Protocol that allows you to turn huge amounts of Fair Folk into Mountain Folk.)

He was asking for an apocalypse scenario.

Kyeudo
2011-02-01, 11:24 PM
Makes sense to me. What about making the Cha + War roll unnecessary, letting the Sid join in, and compelling supernatural beings as you described, but still capping the number of participants?


Why are you so worried about capping the number of participants? The only things that need caps are anything that gets broken if it gets excessive, like modifications to the Speed of actions. Attacks from mortals, at the level when you can have 13 mortals attack, are probably more than iffeffective and are negated by one action perfect defenses that are availible well before that Essence level. Early on, when you only have instantaneous perfect defenses, those additional attacks are problematic, but you are fighting a Sidereal Master, not Joe Schmoe mortal. It's supposed to be problematic.

Really, thinking about it like this, I think you may need to consider how potent it is just when the Sidereal learns the Charm. At Essence 4, is that potential 9 person coordinated attack too strong. If so, you may want to make it [Occult + Degree in Astrology] / 2 attacks.



I'll have the bonus successes not count then. Should I allow a roll to avoid the unexpected attack rather than making it automatically unexpected?


That would probably be a good idea. Anything that gives out an unexpected attack automatically (like Ebon Lightning Prana) are considered very strong because that unexpected component can prevent the activation of a perfect defense and Exalts are sadly squishy.

meschlum
2011-02-02, 02:47 AM
Well, I'm faced with a conundrum. I've been granted permission by my ST to own one of these (http://images.wikia.com/monsterhunter/images/4/4b/Jinouga.jpg) puppies in an Exalted game. But now the question is, how to model it and purchase it with my dots. We'd talked about making it a behemoth, and it seemed the best idea... until I noticed that little sentence that says Behemoths have the stats of their attuned handlers. Which being that this is going to be a beast owned by a spindly little sorcerer, is not an option.

This leaves me wondering how to model it, or if I just will have to make a statblock from nowhere via eyeballing it with my crappy knowledge of Exalted mechanics... suggestions would be welcome.

If you're talking of using a behemoth, that means Fair Folk are around. So solutions exist.

* Get a Warrior, own its Heart, feed it gossamer and have it (ab)use Fantastic Grotesquerie Shell. With 10 starting Charms, that's potentially up to 60 points of mutations (plus a few more for Bestial Assumption)
Cons: requires lots of gossamer, needs to be fed souls to persist in Creation, attributes tend to cap out at 4-5
Pros: LOTS of mutations, Warriors tend to be combat focused, cheap commitment cost (committing to a Heart Grace takes 1 mote)
Hack: These Dreams Are Clay (Ring 4, Essence 2) creates cheap temporary gossamer, whicih can be used to take on mutations via Grotesquerie Shell. As long as they aren't dismissed, the mutations are permanent.

* Find a f(r)iendly Diplomat with Shape Forged Servant and gossamer to burn. Have your new ally use Awakened Dream Manufacture for something with the base stats of a tyrant lizard / big hunting cat. Add 3 mutation points per gossamer invested afterward.
Cons: needs gossamer, requires an ally to intervene, creature is not fully controlled.
Pros: potentially unlimited number of mutations (given enough gossamer), starts with a powerful baseline and just gets better, requires no commitment.
Hack: These Dreams Are Clay is still an option.

* Use an Entertainer instead, with Subversion and Transformation Artifice. Take a normal (and scary animal), give it up to 15 points of mutations permanently at Essence 4+.
Cons: requires a high Essence ally (with GM connivance, works with an Essence 3 noble with Ring and Cup, via Heart Stopping Numinous Power), limited mutation points, creature is not fully controlled
Pros: very cheap gossamer-wise, requires no commitment, improves on an existing (possibly dangerous) animal.
Hack: Unsightly Rigor Approach can temporarily increase the Entertainer's Cup to 10, granting 30 mutation points.

* Pick up a volunteer (a large pet, say), endow it with a Cup Grace (via a Birth 4 Fair Folk, or a Diplomat). Turn the Cup Grace into a 1-dot Inward Facing Oneiromancy with Assumption of Bestial Form, Mad God Mien, and 4 instances of Bestial (or Elemental, or a mix) Transformation. Your pet now has 12 + 4 * Essence mutation points (it can be your Essence)
Cons: sort of complicated, comparatively limited mutations, requires 3 motes committed and 1 gossamer per season.
Pros: you can use the Oneiromancy on something else, so the death of your pet just means you need to find another. It only upgrades the base pet, though (don't add it to a mouse).


Anyway, for Bus size and massive strength, plus elemental endowment, I'd go with a combination!

Take a Shape Forged Servant (or Awakened Dream) to get a powerful base animal (with extra mutations via Shape Forged Servant if necessary), then give it a Cup Grace and an Oneiromancy with Elemental Transformation for the special effects. Consider the other Oneiromancy options too, rather than just Transformation - Imposition of Law can be nice, or improved senses.

Xefas
2011-02-02, 03:04 AM
Helpful stuff

Thanks for the info. That's actually kind of a cool-sounding mechanic. Glad I asked about it.

Also, unrelated, I'd like to nominate meschlum for Raksha In The Playground. Since joining the forum 72 days ago, he has made 14 posts. 11 of them were about the Fair Folk. That's 78.5% of his posting history spent on one extremely esoteric and narrow subject of one game system. That's dedication. This entity we know as meschlum loves Fair Folk more than any of us will ever love a significant other.

golentan
2011-02-02, 03:33 AM
This entity we know as meschlum loves Fair Folk more than any of us will ever love a significant other.

Golentan humbly disagrees. And is insulted. And expresses distaste for your manners, and methods of eating asparagus.

Drascin
2011-02-02, 04:09 AM
If you're talking of using a behemoth, that means Fair Folk are around. So solutions exist.

* Get a Warrior, own its Heart, feed it gossamer and have it (ab)use Fantastic Grotesquerie Shell. With 10 starting Charms, that's potentially up to 60 points of mutations (plus a few more for Bestial Assumption)
Cons: requires lots of gossamer, needs to be fed souls to persist in Creation, attributes tend to cap out at 4-5
Pros: LOTS of mutations, Warriors tend to be combat focused, cheap commitment cost (committing to a Heart Grace takes 1 mote)
Hack: These Dreams Are Clay (Ring 4, Essence 2) creates cheap temporary gossamer, whicih can be used to take on mutations via Grotesquerie Shell. As long as they aren't dismissed, the mutations are permanent.

* Find a f(r)iendly Diplomat with Shape Forged Servant and gossamer to burn. Have your new ally use Awakened Dream Manufacture for something with the base stats of a tyrant lizard / big hunting cat. Add 3 mutation points per gossamer invested afterward.
Cons: needs gossamer, requires an ally to intervene, creature is not fully controlled.
Pros: potentially unlimited number of mutations (given enough gossamer), starts with a powerful baseline and just gets better, requires no commitment.
Hack: These Dreams Are Clay is still an option.

* Use an Entertainer instead, with Subversion and Transformation Artifice. Take a normal (and scary animal), give it up to 15 points of mutations permanently at Essence 4+.
Cons: requires a high Essence ally (with GM connivance, works with an Essence 3 noble with Ring and Cup, via Heart Stopping Numinous Power), limited mutation points, creature is not fully controlled
Pros: very cheap gossamer-wise, requires no commitment, improves on an existing (possibly dangerous) animal.
Hack: Unsightly Rigor Approach can temporarily increase the Entertainer's Cup to 10, granting 30 mutation points.

* Pick up a volunteer (a large pet, say), endow it with a Cup Grace (via a Birth 4 Fair Folk, or a Diplomat). Turn the Cup Grace into a 1-dot Inward Facing Oneiromancy with Assumption of Bestial Form, Mad God Mien, and 4 instances of Bestial (or Elemental, or a mix) Transformation. Your pet now has 12 + 4 * Essence mutation points (it can be your Essence)
Cons: sort of complicated, comparatively limited mutations, requires 3 motes committed and 1 gossamer per season.
Pros: you can use the Oneiromancy on something else, so the death of your pet just means you need to find another. It only upgrades the base pet, though (don't add it to a mouse).


Anyway, for Bus size and massive strength, plus elemental endowment, I'd go with a combination!

Take a Shape Forged Servant (or Awakened Dream) to get a powerful base animal (with extra mutations via Shape Forged Servant if necessary), then give it a Cup Grace and an Oneiromancy with Elemental Transformation for the special effects. Consider the other Oneiromancy options too, rather than just Transformation - Imposition of Law can be nice, or improved senses.

Wow, that is a lot of help. Thanks!

If anything, I'm probably going to go with the third method if allowed. See, the thing is, this is not for a Fae game, but an Exalt game, where I'm playing a Lunar. The Behemoth thing was simply because I wanted to have a cool, huge pet with powers, and behemoth rules seemed decent, and especially simple (since I don't like asking the ST to reread exceedingly complicated rules) to express that kind of thing. So "simple" is high in the scale of importance for this particular thing.

What mutations do you think would be useful to give the beast enough soak to not keel over from a single knife to the gut? I'm noticing the baseline animals are kind of crappy for that, so I'd need to add a few defenses.

The_Snark
2011-02-02, 05:09 AM
I don't know Fair Folk material very well so I can't recommend any raksha Charms, but if you're looking at standard mutations the size increases are nice and cost-effective. The most potent version is Gargantuan, an abomination found in Dreams of the First Age; it grants +4 Strength and Stamina as well as 10 extra health levels.

Also found in Dreams of the First Age is Immortal Flesh, an abomination that essentially renders your beastie immortal; unless it's killed with a Charm like Ghost-Eating Technique or completely annihilated, it regenerates from death. Handy if you're worried about losing your pet, although it might be a bit expensive.

Drascin
2011-02-02, 05:19 AM
I don't know Fair Folk material very well so I can't recommend any raksha Charms, but if you're looking at standard mutations the size increases are nice and cost-effective. The most potent version is Gargantuan, an abomination found in Dreams of the First Age; it grants +4 Strength and Stamina as well as 10 extra health levels.

Also found in Dreams of the First Age is Immortal Flesh, an abomination that essentially renders your beastie immortal; unless it's killed with a Charm like Ghost-Eating Technique or completely annihilated, it regenerates from death. Handy if you're worried about losing your pet, although it might be a bit expensive.

That sounds seriously tasty - just what kind of size are we talking about with Gargantuan, though? I mean, Jinouga's big, but not XBOXHUGE, really. As said, size of a bus or so - it's not exactly Godzilla! :smalltongue:

Sanguine
2011-02-02, 05:49 AM
That sounds seriously tasty - just what kind of size are we talking about with Gargantuan, though? I mean, Jinouga's big, but not XBOXHUGE, really. As said, size of a bus or so - it's not exactly Godzilla! :smalltongue:

Something with the Gargantuan mutation is four times the size of the base creature.

Drascin
2011-02-02, 06:39 AM
Ah, just x4? Then, a great cat with that mutation would be just about right, size-wise. Perfect. Thanks for the pointing-out!

Tavar
2011-02-02, 09:28 AM
Really, thinking about it like this, I think you may need to consider how potent it is just when the Sidereal learns the Charm. At Essence 4, is that potential 9 person coordinated attack too strong. If so, you may want to make it [Occult + Degree in Astrology] / 2 attacks.



That would probably be a good idea. Anything that gives out an unexpected attack automatically (like Ebon Lightning Prana) are considered very strong because that unexpected component can prevent the activation of a perfect defense and Exalts are sadly squishy.

This is especially true if you're still requiring a roll to make it a coordinated attack. Infact, once again, I'd suggest making the charm automatically make it a coordinated attack. Then capping it is a good idea. Otherwise, you're probably not going to hit the cap because, well, you're not going to want to max it out because then just one failure or so means the entire charm doesn't function.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-02, 11:35 AM
Why are you so worried about capping the number of participants? The only things that need caps are anything that gets broken if it gets excessive, like modifications to the Speed of actions. Attacks from mortals, at the level when you can have 13 mortals attack, are probably more than iffeffective and are negated by one action perfect defenses that are availible well before that Essence level. Early on, when you only have instantaneous perfect defenses, those additional attacks are problematic, but you are fighting a Sidereal Master, not Joe Schmoe mortal. It's supposed to be problematic.

Mainly so that someone doesn't try to have several hundred Dragon-Blooded archers, necromantic war machines, etc. make a combined attack. But then, the Cha + War roll can't be pumped too ridiculously even if the result is, say doubled, so it acts as an effective cap. Your thinking was right, yeah.


That would probably be a good idea. Anything that gives out an unexpected attack automatically (like Ebon Lightning Prana) are considered very strong because that unexpected component can prevent the activation of a perfect defense and Exalts are sadly squishy.

Sad but true. I'll change it to an automatic attempt to reestablish surprise.

Kyeudo
2011-02-02, 12:32 PM
Mainly so that someone doesn't try to have several hundred Dragon-Blooded archers, necromantic war machines, etc. make a combined attack. But then, the Cha + War roll can't be pumped too ridiculously even if the result is, say doubled, so it acts as an effective cap. Your thinking was right, yeah.


I was talking about the (Maximum 8) cap that you had in the Charm when you already had a limit of (Occult + Degree) set by the Charm. Having an upper limit for the Charm isn't a bad idea, its just that caps set by other traits are more interesting than flat caps and allow a character to grow stronger over time, making the Charm useful even when a character has later Charms to draw on.

A coordinated attack made by hundreds sounds like an Essence 10 Solar Charm. Malfeas must have felt like a pincushion.

meschlum
2011-02-02, 12:53 PM
Wow, that is a lot of help. Thanks!

If anything, I'm probably going to go with the third method if allowed. See, the thing is, this is not for a Fae game, but an Exalt game, where I'm playing a Lunar. The Behemoth thing was simply because I wanted to have a cool, huge pet with powers, and behemoth rules seemed decent, and especially simple (since I don't like asking the ST to reread exceedingly complicated rules) to express that kind of thing. So "simple" is high in the scale of importance for this particular thing.

What mutations do you think would be useful to give the beast enough soak to not keel over from a single knife to the gut? I'm noticing the baseline animals are kind of crappy for that, so I'd need to add a few defenses.

High dot Behemoths are nice for high soak, but that's not an option here.

Size mutations are extremely good, I agree. The fur/scales/tough skin series of mutations can add a little soak, but not all that much.

Since you have a Fair Folk helping you out, have you considered gossamer armor? Barding for your pet, so it's not useable by anyone else (which helps make GMs happy). Gossamer armor has 0 mobility and fatigue penalties, which is nice, and is easy for Fair Folk to make at perfect level (for an extra +3/+3 soak, since you can't improve fatigue and mobility). Given the effective weight and origin, you could describe it as a protective aura or some such rather than mundane armor.

Mutations that are often ignored are Derangements: "<Player Character> loves me and everything <he> does is for my own good." is, if not essential, at least useful when dealing with bus sized creatures.

Depending on the degree of Godzilla-dom, look at Dragon's Breath for an Abomination granting exactly what's in the name.

If you want to enable massive shenanigans, give it Essence Channeler and teach it TMA. Plus, that lets it fuel its own powers more easily.

Drifting towards more Fair Folk involvement, an Adjuration or two (created from the creature's Staff Grace, of course) can give a few nice extras:

- Knife Hand Dream gives +5 damage at Essence 3 (and Aggravated damage at higher essence)
- Opalescent Gossamer Raiment adds decent amounts of soak (grace and essence based, though)
- Armament of Flesh gives decent upgrades to natural weapons

This requires a few commited motes, but that's what Essence Channeler is for!

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-02, 02:59 PM
This seems awesome. Especially the possibility of (what looks like) a giant wolf performing martial arts.

Back to the Gravity vs. Creation and Autochthonia situation, what exactly is the Omphalos? Can't look it up right now, and seems like one of those things that the wiki won't have, but I assume it has something to do with preventing another Fae invasion.

Kyeudo
2011-02-02, 03:07 PM
The Oomphalos is just another name for Mt. Meru, otherwise known as the Elemental Pole of Earth, within which Pasiap, Elemental Dragon of Earth and fetich soul of Gaia, slumbers fitfully.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-02, 03:08 PM
Omphalos is the mountain above the Elemental Pole of Earth. It is also called Mount Meru (for the city), the Imperial Mountain (because the Scarlet Empress likes calling things her own) and "HOLY HELL IT IS HUGE" (because it is huge).


The Oomphalos is just another name for Mt. Meru, otherwise known as the Elemental Pole of Earth, within which Pasiap, Elemental Dragon of Earth and fetich soul of Gaia, slumbers fitfully.

Pasiap is not the fetich soul of Gaia (at least, not definitively). There is no concrete information as to the identity of the fetich soul of Gaia. It might not even be one of the six named ones.

Xefas
2011-02-02, 03:09 PM
Back to the Gravity vs. Creation and Autochthonia situation, what exactly is the Omphalos? Can't look it up right now, and seems like one of those things that the wiki won't have, but I assume it has something to do with preventing another Fae invasion.

Well, for one Omphalos (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omphalos) is just a plain English word; it's not a made-up fantasy word, so that helps. But, more specifically, it's the center-point of Creation's geomancy. In Return of the Scarlet Empress, the Ebon Dragon breaks the Omphalos so he can corrupt the whole world and remake it in his image. This has the side effect of shutting down any natural defenses Creation has against the Fair Folk.

Which, as was humorously stated earlier, the book states that, ironically, this will probably be a good thing for Creation, as the Fair Folk are more likely to fight against the Ebon Dragon than anything else.

It bears mentioning that breaking the Omphalos involves killing Pasiap, the Dragon of Earth, and exploding the Imperial Mountain in the process. So, fixing it is rather difficult.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-02, 03:10 PM
"Oh, hey, it's those guys I used to make models of. Waitaminute, Shadey? Is that you?"

Predicted response from Autobot.

Reynard
2011-02-02, 03:11 PM
It bears mentioning that breaking the Omphalos involves killing Pasiap, the Dragon of Earth, and exploding the Imperial Mountain in the process. So, fixing it is rather difficult.

Which is where Gethamane comes in, with it's super-artifact Reality Engines intended as a backup Elemental Pole of Earth.

Xefas
2011-02-02, 03:20 PM
"Oh, hey, it's those guys I used to make models of. Waitaminute, Shadey? Is that you?"

I like to think all the other Primordials had silly nicknames for Autochthon, rather than the other way around.

Gethamane
Germaine?
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/germaine.png

Sanguine
2011-02-02, 03:31 PM
Omphalos is the mountain above the Elemental Pole of Earth. It is also called Mount Meru (for the city), the Imperial Mountain (because the Scarlet Empress likes calling things her own) and "HOLY HELL IT IS HUGE" (because it is huge).



Pasiap is not the fetich soul of Gaia (at least, not definitively). There is no concrete information as to the identity of the fetich soul of Gaia. It might not even be one of the six named ones.

Six? There's only five Elemental Dragons. Is there another Gaian(Gaic?:smallconfused:) Soul I don't know about?

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-02, 03:32 PM
Six? There's only five Elemental Dragons. Is there another Gaian(Gaic?:smallconfused:) Soul I don't know about?

Gnosis, the comet.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-02, 03:32 PM
Gethamane. (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Gethamane) There's a Hekatoncheires and lots of Darkbrood and occasionally ghosts, and nothing to eat but fungus, and human sacrifice, and it's generally a lovely place. Also, it's connected to the Underworld. Also, there's a hidden Yu-Shan gate there, in case the backup Elemental Pole of Earth didn't give the Neverborn enough reasons to want it invaded. It's one of the worst places in Creation to be a mortal.


I was talking about the (Maximum 8) cap that you had in the Charm when you already had a limit of (Occult + Degree) set by the Charm. Having an upper limit for the Charm isn't a bad idea, its just that caps set by other traits are more interesting than flat caps and allow a character to grow stronger over time, making the Charm useful even when a character has later Charms to draw on.

A coordinated attack made by hundreds sounds like an Essence 10 Solar Charm. Malfeas must have felt like a pincushion.

Agreed, on all counts.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-02, 03:35 PM
I like to think all the other Primordials had silly nicknames for Autochthon, rather than the other way around.

"BE QUIET, RUSTBOY! I'M SLAUGHTERING SOLARS!"

Kris Strife
2011-02-02, 03:35 PM
It's one of the worst places in Creation to be a mortal.

How is it that different from the rest of Creation? :smalltongue:

Xefas
2011-02-02, 03:37 PM
Gethamane
Legerdemain?
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/legerdemain_devil200.jpg

Kyeudo
2011-02-02, 03:47 PM
How is it that different from the rest of Creation? :smalltongue:

You don't get brainwashed from birth and learn immediately that the boogyman is real and wants to eat you. Oh, wait, that sounds like several places.

Alright, it is among the worst places to be mortal.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-02, 04:43 PM
How is it that different from the rest of Creation? :smalltongue:

Most of Creation has plentiful and delicious harvests of a wide variety of foods. Gethamane has fungus.
Most of Creation sacrifices expensive things to the gods. Gethamane sacrifices people to a garden.
Most of Creation has ghosts, but not a direct 24/7 passage to the Underworld. Even Shadowlands have sunlight to keep the ghosts down.
Most of Creation has powerful-ish gods and Terrestrial Exalts that care about protecting mortals, or at least care about their source of prayer. Gethamane has a couple weak and insane gods who do nothing but keep the air circulating and occasionally drive people mad. And sometimes Jadeborn, who try to stay the hell away from Gethamane because of the Hekatonkhires there.
Yeah, the Hekatonkhires? Most of Creation doesn't have those. Did I mention that it was born from the hatred of the first Primordial ever to die? And that it's Essence 8?
Darkbrood. DAAAAARKBROOOOOD.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-02-02, 06:10 PM
Gnosis, the comet.

That's not definitive, though. The only word we have on that is the Magnus.


Pasiap is not the fetich soul of Gaia (at least, not definitively). There is no concrete information as to the identity of the fetich soul of Gaia. It might not even be one of the six named ones.

Pasiap is definitely not the fetich soul of Gaia. One of the endings of RotSE has the Emerald Mother showing up after Pasiap is killed.


Yeah, the Hekatonkhires? Most of Creation doesn't have those. Did I mention that it was born from the hatred of the first Primordial ever to die? And that it's Essence 8?


Vodak is a good example of that thing I was saying earlier about behemoths sometimes being more powerful then their Essence would indicate. He ate more than 10,000 Dragon-Bloods when he attacked. That's, what, most of the Terrestial population of the Blessed Isle?

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-02, 06:12 PM
Pasiap is definitely not the fetich soul of Gaia. One of the endings of RotSE has the Emerald Mother showing up after Pasiap is killed.

(insert obligatory comment about Return of the Scarlet Empress not being canon here)

horngeek
2011-02-02, 06:43 PM
The fetish soul of Gaia is whichever one the ST chooses.

That said, Pasiap seems to be a negative.

golentan
2011-02-03, 03:44 AM
Vodak is a good example of that thing I was saying earlier about behemoths sometimes being more powerful then their Essence would indicate. He ate more than 10,000 Dragon-Bloods when he attacked. That's, what, most of the Terrestial population of the Blessed Isle?

He did. And he can split them off and sic them on enemies. Because what's the one thing a behemoth needs? The ability to field an army of exalts. No way that could be overpowered.

Though it's only half to a third the Terrestrial population of the Isle. They've got 20 or 30k DBs there (can't remember which).

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-03, 03:50 AM
The fetish soul of Gaia is whichever one the ST chooses.

The fetish soul of Gaia is obviously Luna, considering how much they shack up.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-03, 04:34 AM
Oh, fetish/fetich. How much amusement you cause...

Xefas
2011-02-03, 04:40 AM
Oh, fetish/fetich. How much amusement you cause...

Not as much as Sol having a specialty of Ride (Luna +1), though.

It's canon! :smallbiggrin:

horngeek
2011-02-03, 05:23 AM
Gah. XD

Yeah, whoops.