PDA

View Full Version : Exalted General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal



Pages : 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-11, 04:12 PM
Remember that Mario-Exalted post a while ago? Well now I need to make a Sonic-based version to balance the videogaming universe. Observe!

Sonic: Either Night Caste, with lots of Athletics and Dodge charms, or Scourge caste GSP. Last one very unlikely.

Tails: Fox totem No Moon Lunar? Achieves the two-tailed helicopter effect through some form of charm or, more simply, his tail?

Knuckles- Either Fire Aspect or Dawn caste martial artist. With a high-point Obligation, Oath or Ward to the Master Emerald.

Eggman: Defiler caste with loads of Craft ('Specially Magitek) and a few War/Hellstriders.

Metal Sonic: Apostate Alchemical?

Shadow: Abyssal. With some kinda Shaping homebrew charm(s) for Chaos Control.

Chaos Emeralds: N/A Hearthstones? Specialized Artifacts?

Chaos: Some kind of crazy Water Elemental or Spirit of some sort.

Rouge: Bat totem Changing Moon?

Vector: Dragon King.

Mephiles: Some Yozi's Fetich Soul?

Iblis: Mephiles' Defining Soul? (I'll admit, I have no idea how exactly that whole naming convention works)

I may come up with others later. For now, just look over these. (If I've left out anyone important-and I have- it's because I can't think of anything for them.)

SurlySeraph
2011-02-11, 04:26 PM
In addition, she took high Martial Arts (her character has 5 dots), thinking I guess that Martial Arts charms would be about as simple to take as, say, Melee charms. Now we've got access to most of the books, but a lot of us don't know much about things like the various martial arts and whatnot, and so she asked me to see if you guys might be able to suggest a decently balanced martial art style with fluff that might fit her character, at least somewhat. I had seen someone mentioning "Sapphire Veil of Passion" or whatever a couple pages back, and we looked at that, but the fluff on it really doesn't fit her character at all. That's not a huge deal, of course, but we thought we'd see if you guys had any suggestions.
EDIT:
The weapons she is using by the way, are some sort of artifact gauntlet with retractable claws, and the middle claw on each gauntlet is also a projectile on a chain? If you guys need more details than that, I can find out the name of the gauntlets or any other details that would help when I talk to her tomorrow.

Gauntlets of Distant Claws, yeah. She'll want a martial art that lets you use Tiger Claws as a form weapon, then. For that, the options that work best fluff-wise are probably Solar Hero Style, Water Dragon Style, and Tiger Style. All of those are fairly effective and fairly balanced. I'd probably go with Solar Hero so that you won't have to get another book, and because it allows armor. Tiger Style might be better if she's focused on stealth, and Water Dragon has more defensive abilities, but it's hard to go wrong with Solar Hero.

Xefas
2011-02-11, 04:26 PM
Sonic: Either Night Caste, with lots of Athletics and Dodge charms, or Scourge caste GSP. Last one very unlikely.


If you're not going for "Anthropomorphic Animals Are Just a Racial Option In My Setting", then I like Lunar Akuma with a Hedgehog Spirit Animal and Adorjan as the patron. His Urge could be something like "Ensure my own freedom at all costs" or something. It both fits in the Adorjani urge, sounds like something Adorjan would give an Akuma, and gives him plenty of leeway to be a hero.

I dunno what Lunars get in the way of speed-boosting charms, but you can always just pick up the Adorjan ones.


Eggman: Defiler caste with loads of Craft ('Specially Magitek) and a few War/Hellstriders.

And I think Eggman works better as a Solar. Not only are they better at Craft, and not only are his machines decidedly not Evas, but if I recall, he's always portrayed in a leadership position. Even if he has, say, the Deliberate Cruelty Virtue Flaw, he still seems to be a competent enough dictator that no one has revolted yet.

Sanguine
2011-02-11, 04:38 PM
Tails: Fox totem No Moon Lunar? Achieves the two-tailed helicopter effect through some form of charm or, more simply, his tail?

Obviously his flight is acheived via the Wings mutation, which he acquired before getting his Caste fixed.



Chaos: Some kind of crazy Water Elemental or Spirit of some sort.

Daana'd.

Xefas
2011-02-11, 04:49 PM
Obviously his flight is acheived via the Wings mutation, which he acquired before getting his Caste fixed.

This makes a certain amount of sense.

Sonic: "OH GOD, why do you have two tails?!"
Tails: "I'm a horrible mutant warped by the unknowable chaos beyond thought and space."
Sonic: "Oh. That's fine. I sold my soul to a demonic horror beyond the shores of this mortal world."
Tails: "You wanna be friends?" :smallconfused:
Sonic: "Oh boy, would I!" :smallbiggrin:

tonberrian
2011-02-11, 06:02 PM
Chaos is a Greater Elemental Dragon, full stop. That fits both the fluff and the crunch perfectly.

Edit: Perfect Chaos, that is. Chaos definitely works as a more normal elemental who's Essence rating is relative to the number of Chaos Emeralds he has.

Reynard
2011-02-11, 08:55 PM
Anybody here know of a good 4-dot thrown weapon?

I'm looking for homebrew, since I know there's nothing in the books.

Xefas
2011-02-11, 09:02 PM
Anybody here know of a good 4-dot thrown weapon?

I'm looking for homebrew, since I know there's nothing in the books.

Hmmm...I kinda wanna homebrew a magical-material-plated tavern that functions as a 4-dot thrown weapon. All 4+ dot artifacts should really have powers other than just pure stats, so I think "You can set it down and it now functions as a tavern, complete with automaton barkeep who is programmed to continuously wipe the same filthy mug with the same filthy rag for all time, whenever not performing other duties" would qualify.

Thoughts?

EDIT: The barkeep also glares at you suspiciously all the time, and synthesizes especially filthy saliva to clean that filthy mug with. And perhaps there'll be a cloaked automaton stranger in the corner with an interdimensional link that allows it to be possessed, long-distance, by any Gods, Demons, or otherwise that fancy doing so. Every time you come in, it has some sort of mysterious quest.

The_Snark
2011-02-11, 09:14 PM
Anybody here know of a good 4-dot thrown weapon?

I'm looking for homebrew, since I know there's nothing in the books.

The Demented One made these (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Artifacts:Majestic_Dragon_Vambrace s) a while back. I've never gotten to try one out, so I'm not sure if they're worth the price (heft commitment, 4-dot artifact, 3-dot manse), but they look pretty nifty.

Urpriest
2011-02-11, 09:21 PM
Hmmm...I kinda wanna homebrew a magical-material-plated tavern that functions as a 4-dot thrown weapon. All 4+ dot artifacts should really have powers other than just pure stats, so I think "You can set it down and it now functions as a tavern, complete with automaton barkeep who is programmed to continuously wipe the same filthy mug with the same filthy rag for all time, whenever not performing other duties" would qualify.

Thoughts?

EDIT: The barkeep also glares at you suspiciously all the time, and synthesizes especially filthy saliva to clean that filthy mug with. And perhaps there'll be a cloaked automaton stranger in the corner with an interdimensional link that allows it to be possessed, long-distance, by any Gods, Demons, or otherwise that fancy doing so. Every time you come in, it has some sort of mysterious quest.

Recently I've been thinking about a character who's a Yeddim-Lunar barkeep. Then I started thinking about the ridiculous Lunar throwing combos described earlier in this thread. Now this. This combination is made of win.

Tavar
2011-02-11, 10:05 PM
Hmm. Before the War, Primordials were able to manipulate time, right?

Looking up info on the time of cascading years, I found the following;


Quote:
Morpheus:Creation is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see? Dragon-blooded, spirits, elementals and mortals. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be know we exist. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. Were you listening to me Neo, or were you looking at the woman in the red dress?

Neo: I was...

Morpheus:Look again. Freeze it.

Neo: This...this isn't Creation?

Morpheus:No. It's another training charm designed to teach you one thing. If you are not one of us, you are one of them.

Neo:What are they?

Morpheus:Sidereals. They can move in and out of any part of Creation. That means that anyone we haven't accredited is potentially a Sidereal. Inside Creation, they are everyone and they are no one. We have survived by hiding from them, by running from them. But they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors. They are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them.

Neo: Someone?

Morpheus:I won't lie to you, Neo. Every single Lunar or Dragon-blooded who has stood their ground, everyone who has fought a Sidereal has died. But where they have failed, you will succeed.

Neo: Why?

Morpheus:I've seen Sidereals punch through a starmetal wall. Legions have emptied entire quivers at them and hit nothing but air. Yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on fate. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be.

Neo: What are you trying to tell me, that I can dodge arrows?

Morpheus:No Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

Xefas
2011-02-11, 10:05 PM
Recently I've been thinking about a character who's a Yeddim-Lunar barkeep. Then I started thinking about the ridiculous Lunar throwing combos described earlier in this book. Now this. This combination is made of win.

You mean in the "Step out of your own tavern, and then use it as a bludgeoning weapon" sort of way?

Oh man, magically gyroscopic stabilization on the interior space! Makes it so that no matter what movement occurs on the outside, if the door is closed, the inside, as far as the occupants perceive, doesn't move.

You could wield your tavern while serving customers.

EDIT:

Hmm. Before the War, Primordials were able to manipulate time, right?

Looking up info on the time of cascading years, I found the following;

Also epic.

Urpriest
2011-02-11, 10:19 PM
You mean in the "Step out of your own tavern, and then use it as a bludgeoning weapon" sort of way?

Oh man, magically gyroscopic stabilization on the interior space! Makes it so that no matter what movement occurs on the outside, if the door is closed, the inside, as far as the occupants perceive, doesn't move.

You could wield your tavern while serving customers.


Exactly. HOW DARE YOU DISTURB MY GUESTS?! (Flings tavern)

Mr.Bookworm
2011-02-12, 05:25 AM
*eye-twitch, points at sig*

A cannon isn't a fire weapon. :smalltongue:

Does anybody have any idea where the blog is on the new White Wolf site? I really want to get at the Ink Monkey stuff that's not on the wiki, but I can't figure out if it's up yet.

Sanguine
2011-02-12, 11:23 AM
Ok I've got a question and my google-fu has failed me.

Does a Raksha with an Essence rating above 5 raise his Attribute and Ability caps, or do they stay the same regardless of Essence Rating?

Tavar
2011-02-12, 11:27 AM
So. Cobra Style. It's supposedly extremely powerful, maybe even too powerful. Why?

Kris Strife
2011-02-12, 11:35 AM
So. Cobra Style. It's supposedly extremely powerful, maybe even too powerful. Why?

Because Creation doesn't have GI Joe. :smallbiggrin:

Lix Lorn
2011-02-12, 12:39 PM
Because Creation doesn't have GI Joe. :smallbiggrin:
...
Go sit in the corner. :smallmad::smallbiggrin:

Jokasti
2011-02-12, 12:44 PM
So. Cobra Style. It's supposedly extremely powerful, maybe even too powerful. Why?

IIRC, it's the form charm.
Showing the Cobra's Fangs is also OP, I think.

Kyeudo
2011-02-12, 02:02 PM
Anyone watch Shakugan no Shana? The show has some very close correlations to Exalted. You have Flame Haze, who are empowered by beings of god-like power to act for them where they can't (can you say Exalts?), Tomogara devour the existances of humans for sustanance and to fuel their strange powers (Fair Folk anyone?), and ordinary people can't do jack. There's battle auras, artifacts of power, even a case where you can see attunement in action.

golentan
2011-02-12, 02:13 PM
I linked to a shakugan fight when we were doing exalted battle videos.

Margery Daw is even a good example of a sorcery focused lunar.

Tavar
2011-02-12, 02:22 PM
Regarding Showing the Cobra's Fangs, the weapons don't seem that much better than most other weapons. Plus the fact that I think you could make an argument that you still need to ready the weapons like normal, and I'm not too bothered by it.

As for the form charm... seems to me that it gives some nice bonuses, but nothing out of line, especially considering the limits it places on your action usage. Unless I'm really missing something.

Again, I'm not questioning that some people think it's overpowered. But why is it overpowered.

For those who are interested, here are the charms.


Showing the Cobra’s Fangs

Cost: —; Mins: Martial Arts 2, Essence 2; Type: Permanent

Keywords: None

Duration: Permanent

Prerequisite Charms: None

The Cobra stylist forms his hands into the famous fangs for which this style is known. Bending and poising his fingers into perfect receptacles for his killing Essence, his “hand fang” strike gains the following stats: Speed 5, Accuracy +3, Damage +5L, Defense +2, Rate 1, Tags: N. A character using this attack adds one automatic success to all Martial Arts attacks which seek to Poison the target. The Cobra’s Fangs share Rate with the martial artist’s punch attack; so, since a punch is Rate 3, the character could punch twice and fang strike once in a single flurry. The Cobra’s Fangs are considered an unarmed attack for the purpose of Cobra style Charms, or for any Martial Arts Charm with the Poison Keyword, but are not compatible with any other Charms of any other style.

When the character has learned the Charm Marked by Eternity, his fangs are further enhanced: they now do 8L Damage, have a Defense of +3, and add two automatic successes to Poison-inflicting Martial Arts attacks.


Cobra Form

Cost: 5m; Mins: Martial Arts 4, Essence 2; Type: Simple

Keywords: Combo-basic, Form-type

Duration: One scene

Prerequisite Charms: Cobra-Eye Splendor, King Cobra Strikes

The martial artist rises up, body coiled to move, hands steady. While in Cobra Form, the martial artist’s Cobra Fang attacks gain Rate 2. He may fight while prone without suffering any penalties, and may reflexively regain his feet at will without being considered to have taken a rise from prone action. Any Poison-keyword Martial Arts Charms the character uses are reduced in price by one mote, to a minimum of one mote, and their Toxicity increases by 2.

Finally, any unexpected attacks the martial artist makes ignore soak altogether.

The first time a Charm with a Flaw of Invulnerability is used during the same action Cobra Form is activated, it adds a two Willpower surcharge to its activation cost.

Additionally, the Cobra stylist enjoys the following benefits, if applicable:

• The Cobra stylist may invoke Snake Strikes the Heel (see Exalted, p. 241), Feather-Stirred Arrow Deflection (see Glories of the Most High, p. 103), and Flexing the Emerald Claw (see Ink Monkeys, vol. 10) as innate powers, if he knows any of those Charms. If activated in this manner, those Charms reduce their activation cost by one mote.

• If the character has an Overdrive pool, he adds one mote to that pool on every damage interval for poisons he has inflicted on anyone in the scene, including himself. This mote benefit stacks by the number of poisons on a single target, as well as poisons across multiple targets, but may not exceed five motes per action. Poisoned targets must be within 20 yards of the Martial Artist for him to benefit from this effect.

Teln
2011-02-12, 02:31 PM
About Cobra Form:


...Finally, any unexpected attacks the martial artist makes ignore soak altogether.

I wouldn't allow that in a Sidereal style without some serious caveats. With unexpected attacks, both the target's DVs are already at zero. Making unexpected attacks unsoakable is just plain overkill, because the only way a target could reasonably expect to survive is by activating a paranoia combo.

Showing the Cobra's Fangs should be post-Form, and require Essence 3, maybe 4.

tonberrian
2011-02-12, 02:40 PM
I thought the main problem with Cobra style was the perfect dodges (that you could stockpile?). That's what I heard, though, as I've never spent the time to look at the thing.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-12, 02:43 PM
Mostly the form.
1. Unexpected attacks are killy enough without completely ignoring soak. A supplemental charm that let you ignore soak on an expected attack and had to pay for each time you used it would be fair (maybe not fair at Essence 2, but fair as something that exists), but as-is you can just keep trying to reestablish surprise and rip your opponent's face off until you succeed.
2. It appears to add a 2wp surcharge to any perfect defense that's activated on the same action that the form is. It would take careful timing to use this abusively, but why is it there at all?
3. Getting your choice of three decently useful charms from other styles as innate powers for reduced cost. It's not completely ridiculous since you actually have to know them, but it's certainly questionable.
4. If there are a bunch of weak poisonable things around, your Overdrive pool will go up real fast.
5. It's really easy to enter without actually needing a Charm activation. Why is that necessary? Also, this may work with part 2 and let you retroactively add 2 wp to the activation cost of a Perfect Defense your opponent used. Again, why?

False Crane Posture isn't totally ridiculous, and it's nice that it encourages you to take risks, but being able to get eight free reflexive perfect dodges if there are some useless minor foes around to swing and miss at you is a pretty sweet deal.

It's just a bit weird and disjointed overall.
Dread Scale Fascination gives you what, 9 extra health levels, because your anima is... scaly? That's pretty odd for a style that started off being about poison and counterattacks. Oh, and fear.
Actually, where did the fear part come from? That's not in Snake Style or in Crane Style, it wasn't really in the fluff, and I'd think that something like "You can choke people by staring at them because you're just that scary" is a) quite thematic for something called Cobra Style, and b) should have been hinted at in the introduction.
Death-Dreaming Flux has nice synergy with other things in the style, but the explanation is bizarre and unclear until you figure out that it just lets you make a counterattack without having been attacked.
The Form seems like they just threw in every idea they couldn't find a place for.
And the whole style points thing - argh! It looks like it's supposed to be an entire and fairly complex mechanic, so then why is it limited to a single Charm of an obscure school?

Tavar
2011-02-12, 02:53 PM
Huh. I though it added a 2 willpower surcharge to your activations. And, worse for those charms, you have to know several other charms from the styles. That's a lot of charms to sink into side stuff.

But a lot of your points are good. Might have to do a bit of nerfing on the style.

Kris Strife
2011-02-12, 02:54 PM
...
Go sit in the corner. :smallmad::smallbiggrin:

Don't worry, I'm already punishing myself trying to figure out who would be who in a GI Joe/Exalted Mash Up. :smalltongue:

Teln
2011-02-12, 03:04 PM
Christ, I just realized something else about Cobra Form: If we're going strictly by RAW, then that bit about unsoakable unexpected attacks applies to attacks made with all martial arts weapons, not just unarmed attacks/form weapon attacks.

Reynard
2011-02-12, 03:08 PM
Christ, I just realized something else about Cobra Form: If we're going strictly by RAW, then that bit about unsoakable unexpected attacks applies to attacks made with all martial arts weapons, not just unarmed attacks/form weapon attacks.

Except not, as you can't use non-form/unarmed weapons with Martial Arts Charms.

Kyeudo
2011-02-12, 03:10 PM
It's just a bit weird and disjointed overall.
Dread Scale Fascination gives you what, 9 extra health levels, because your anima is... scaly? That's pretty odd for a style that started off being about poison and counterattacks. Oh, and fear.
Actually, where did the fear part come from? That's not in Snake Style or in Crane Style, it wasn't really in the fluff, and I'd think that something like "You can choke people by staring at them because you're just that scary" is a) quite thematic for something called Cobra Style, and b) should have been hinted at in the introduction.
Death-Dreaming Flux has nice synergy with other things in the style, but the explanation is bizarre and unclear until you figure out that it just lets you make a counterattack without having been attacked.
The Form seems like they just threw in every idea they couldn't find a place for.
And the whole style points thing - argh! It looks like it's supposed to be an entire and fairly complex mechanic, so then why is it limited to a single Charm of an obscure school?

To answer pretty much all of your questions: Because the Ink Monkeys wrote it. The Ink Monkeys suffer heavily from Sturgeon's Law because they seem to operate on the Monkeys-Flinging-Poo model (throw enough crap at a wall and eventually something sticks).

Reynard
2011-02-12, 03:14 PM
To answer pretty much all of your questions: Because the Ink Monkeys wrote it. The Ink Monkeys suffer heavily from Sturgeon's Law because they seem to operate on the Monkeys-Flinging-Poo model (throw enough crap at a wall and eventually something sticks).

Not quite fair.

They just need to stop letting the people who have been writing martial arts styles (Hatewheel (who does mostly fluff) and That Dude Who Worked on The Crap Styles From SotM) from writing martial arts styles.

Monkeys! You have TDO now! Use hiiim!

Jokasti
2011-02-12, 03:17 PM
Not quite fair.

They just need to stop letting the people who have been writing martial arts styles (Hatewheel (who does mostly fluff) and That Dude Who Worked on The Crap Styles From SotM) from writing martial arts styles.

Monkeys! You have TDO now! Use hiiim!

They are using him, Reynad. For CoCD:Auto-Kun.
And his name is Dean Shomshak or something. He also did Ivory Pestle Style.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-12, 03:22 PM
I am honoured. A Playgrounder writing Autochthon. (I suppose other people are technically honored.)

Xefas
2011-02-12, 03:23 PM
The Ink Monkeys suffer heavily from Sturgeon's Law because they seem to operate on the Monkeys-Flinging-Poo model (throw enough crap at a wall and eventually something sticks).

Isn't the whole point of Sturgeon's Law that everything suffers heavily from Sturgeon's Law? Like...90% heavily?

Teln
2011-02-12, 03:27 PM
Except not, as you can't use non-form/unarmed weapons with Martial Arts Charms.

I've gone through the core rules, Scroll of the Monk, and the errata for both. Nowhere does it say that, and in fact the practice for Martial Arts Charms seems to be that they enhance unarmed attacks, with form weapons counting as unarmed for that particular Style's Charms.

Cobra Form does not say that unsoakable unexpected attacks are limited to form weapons. As a matter of fact, that particular clause states that any unexpected attacks the martial artist launches are so enhanced (which presumably limits it to Martial Arts-based attacks, since that clause doesn't state that it applies to attacks based on other Abilities). So, going strictly by RAW, Cobra Form is quite possibly more borked than the Ink Monkeys intended.

Kyeudo
2011-02-12, 03:28 PM
Isn't the whole point of Sturgeon's Law that everything suffers heavily from Sturgeon's Law? Like...90% heavily?

Yes, but its volume I'm talking about here. One fanfic writer who writes 10 short stories produces 9 crappy ones. An Ink Monkey that produces 50 pages of Charms is going to have 40 of them loaded with useless or broken material.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-12, 03:29 PM
Huh. I though it added a 2 willpower surcharge to your activations.

If you read it that way it's slightly more reasonable, particularly in paranoia combat.
Though in paranoia combat you'd probably use Death-Dreaming Flux, make whatever counterattack you want, get to reflexively enter the Form when your opponent perfects that attack away, and then go to the next action because your opponent can't counterattack a counterattack. You would therefore have entered the Form for 1m, with no particular risk to yourself beforehand and no chance of needing to pay the 2wp.
Or, if your opponent attacked first, you would perfect it away, use a counterattack, and enter the form for free when your opponent perfected your counterattack, and have to pay the 2wp. But given the benefits that Cobra Style gives you for having a high Join Battle, I'd expect anyone who used it to have a really high Join Battle.


Christ, I just realized something else about Cobra Form: If we're going strictly by RAW, then that bit about unsoakable unexpected attacks applies to attacks made with all martial arts weapons, not just unarmed attacks/form weapon attacks.

Forget that, it lets you use any dual-wielded swords without the 2 tag as Form weapons. That's nice enough, and while you'd have to argue about whether having Strength high enough to wield 2-handed weapons one-handed actually removes the tag it opens up the possibility of dual-wielding Grand Daiklaves.
Which I don't actually mind, because if someone puts in the effort required to reach 9 Strength, and wants to do snake martial arts while stabbing down with dual giant swords, they've earned it.


To answer pretty much all of your questions: Because the Ink Monkeys wrote it. The Ink Monkeys suffer heavily from Sturgeon's Law because they seem to operate on the Monkeys-Flinging-Poo model (throw enough crap at a wall and eventually something sticks).

Eh, I usually like the Monkeys overall. The Daystar articles could have been half as long, Ivory Pestle Style is an interesting idea with a waaay too powerful pre-Form charm and a Form that made it even better, and I'd like them to show a bit less love for Solars and Infernals and a bit more for everyone else, especially Sidereals. Please. Secret Lesson Revelation was great, the Dawn Errata was almost as awesome for Sids as for everyone else, the martial arts style are decent if often a bit too powerful, the... I'm sure whatever other scraps you threw to the Sids were also great. Please just give us an SMA that isn't entirely broken or entirely about sex. That's all I'm asking for.

Xefas
2011-02-12, 03:35 PM
Yes, but its volume I'm talking about here. One fanfic writer who writes 10 short stories produces 9 crappy ones. An Ink Monkey that produces 50 pages of Charms is going to have 40 of them loaded with useless or broken material.

Wouldn't that make them less affected by Sturgeon's Law? Because that would only be 80% of the stuff they write, which is significantly lower than the 90% the Law implies.

(Also, I know what you mean, I'm just messing with you. :smalltongue:)

Kyeudo
2011-02-12, 03:43 PM
Now that I think of it more, Sturgeon's Law isn't about the volume of crappy work produced by any given author, but by the volume of crappy material produced by all authors as a whole.

Teln
2011-02-12, 04:20 PM
Forget that, it lets you use any dual-wielded swords without the 2 tag as Form weapons. That's nice enough, and while you'd have to argue about whether having Strength high enough to wield 2-handed weapons one-handed actually removes the tag it opens up the possibility of dual-wielding Grand Daiklaves.
Which I don't actually mind, because if someone puts in the effort required to reach 9 Strength, and wants to do snake martial arts while stabbing down with dual giant swords, they've earned it.

9 Strength nothing, just take Dual-Slaying Posture from Glories: Luna (the Solar counterpart to Deadly Mantis Practice) and dual-wield your golden/silver surfboards at Essence 2, Melee/Strength 4!

Mr.Bookworm
2011-02-12, 04:37 PM
I'd like them to show a bit less love for Solars and Infernals and a bit more for everyone else, especially Sidereals. [/SIZE]

You really should read the Ink Monkey threads over on the White Wolf forums sometime. They're good reads, and all of the various Monkeys are active to a certain extent in the threads. They answer a lot of questions like that.

The Sidereals aren't getting any love, for instance, because they have some fundamentally broken stuff that needs to be addressed, and there's no point in adding to that until ETP releases the Siddie errata. Same reason we haven't gotten any Sorcery love.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-12, 04:51 PM
So did Dawn Castes (well, OK, only in comparison to other Solars), and Dawn Castes got pages and pages of awesomeness. Just some patches on the SMAs from Scroll of the Monk, or even "Hey, have you read that fix that such-and-such made for this SMA? It's pretty good." Anything official, because I love Sidereals and their martial arts and want them to work.

Also, I was under the impression that that ETP wasn't going to do anything on Sidereal errata until CoCD: Autochthonia came out, but I may be wrong.


9 Strength nothing, just take Dual-Slaying Posture from Glories: Luna (the Solar counterpart to Deadly Mantis Practice) and dual-wield your golden/silver surfboards at Essence 2, Melee/Strength 4!

Oh, that's easy then. Though I still honestly have no problem with it. Anyone who can come up with a good description of how they could effectively fight while wielding two swords taller than themselves in a knife-fighting sabre grip deserves that power.

EDIT: Totally irrelevant, but I just read this on the White Wolf forums and loved it:

I still maintain that Panther and Strength-Of-Many should have been revealed to be each other's Solar/Lunar mates. They could fight slavers and injustice together, beat up random jerks, chest bump afterwards, and we would've gotten a different (but not THAT different) spin on that SOM/Sulumar picture in RotSE.

Xefas
2011-02-12, 05:15 PM
I have a White Wolf account now. I'm hoping I'll stop getting so many "This forum has undergone a critical error! Oh snap. Contact the forum administrator immediately!" errors whilst trying to find the blags now.

EDIT: Nope. :smallfrown:

Urpriest
2011-02-12, 05:39 PM
Oh, that's easy then. Though I still honestly have no problem with it. Anyone who can come up with a good description of how they could effectively fight while wielding two swords taller than themselves in a knife-fighting sabre grip deserves that power.



Why you use them as stilts of course!

Tavar
2011-02-12, 11:06 PM
Hmm. Anyone know where those articles where they had the Yozi as children in a mental health facility? I know they were on both a forum and a wiki, but I can't find them on Google.

Edit: also, there's the game There Is No Teacup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187077), which is currently recruiting.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-13, 12:07 AM
Here. (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=St_Cyntherea%27s_Institute) Man, I love those. Especially Malfeas, because I never thought of him as so... well, nice. I really like the idea that he can be a protector and leader to small children while also being the dancing punch-tyrant we all know.
The Ebon Dragon is so much like a sociopathic child already that portraying him as such shouldn't be hard, but it's certainly done beautifully.

Kris Strife
2011-02-13, 02:49 AM
Who is the first one in the Others category about? :smallconfused:

Xefas
2011-02-13, 02:58 AM
Who is the first one in the Others category about? :smallconfused:

It sounds a bit like Plot Hook Man, the unnamed Primordial that fled the Primordial War and is still out there, lurking; biding his time until a Storyteller feels the need to flesh him out and give him a reason to jump into the fray.

Arcanoi
2011-02-13, 03:08 AM
It sounds a bit like Plot Hook Man, the unnamed Primordial that fled the Primordial War and is still out there, lurking; biding his time until a Storyteller feels the need to flesh him out and give him a reason to jump into the fray.

More likely, it's the Aftershock Primordial.

Xefas
2011-02-13, 03:18 AM
More likely, it's the Aftershock Primordial.

Pfft, those two are pretty alike anyway. I like to think they were buddies. Like, they probably came over to each others' house and wrassled and watched Seinfeld.

Maybe they accidentally kissed once. But, I mean, that happens sometimes when you wrassle a lot.

And now one's dead. ...:smallfrown:

vegetalss4
2011-02-13, 04:37 AM
I have a White Wolf account now. I'm hoping I'll stop getting so many "This forum has undergone a critical error! Oh snap. Contact the forum administrator immediately!" errors whilst trying to find the blags now.

EDIT: Nope. :smallfrown:

you are getting those messages because they are in the mid of a forum shift right now and the blogs aren't up yet.

ShadowFighter15
2011-02-13, 05:30 AM
Posting the table again. Like I said; I'll do this every few pages or so til we're on the new thread, then I'll just post it once (hopefully on the first page) and edit it from there. Probably stick a link in my sig, though Jukashi may need one in his since I don't post too often.

Check your line of the table, if there is an asterisk in one of the cells, tell me what to put there instead either by posting here or PMing me. ST is a Yes, No or Maybe question and Favoured Game Style (as the new note in that column's head should indicate) means the game styles found in the core book on page 262. Feel free to use acronyms if necessary.

Player|ST?|Player?|1st Choice Exalted|2nd Choice Exalted|3rd Choice Exalted| Favoured Game Style (Listed on p262 of Core)

ShadowFighter15|No|Yes|Lunar|Alchemical|D-B|Just about anything

Lix Lorn|*|Always|Solar|D-B|Alchemical|Just about anything, evil only rarely

Sanguine|*|Yes|Infernal|Alchemical|Lunar|Anything and everything.

Skybound Fencer|Maybe|Yes|Lunar|D-B|Solar|Anything

Mikal|*|Yes|Solar|Solar|Infernal|*

tonberrian|No|Yes|Infernals|Fixed Sidereals|Alchemicals|*

Guancyto|Yes|Yes|Alchemicals|Infernals|Abyssals|Mo st things

Lord Raziere|No|Yes|Dragon Blooded|Lunars|Sidereals|Any

The Rose Dragon|Maybe|Yes|Abyssals (and DK)|Solars|Sidereals|*

Golentan|Yes|Yes|Terrestrials|Infernals|Alchemical s|*

Drascin|*|Yes|Alchemicals|D-B, Fae|Non-Abyssal|*

IcarusWings|*|Yes|Alchemicals|DK|D-B|Any

a humble lich|Maybe|Yes|Sidereals|Lunars|D/God-Blooded|Any

Vegetalss4|Maybe|Yes|Alchemicals|D-B, Infernals|Everything else|any

Weimann|*|*|D-B|Alchemicals|I dunno|*

DCGFTW|No|Yes|Alchemicals|Infernals|Dragon Kings?|*

Jokasti|Yes|Yes|Infernals/Solars|Alchemicals|Fixed Sidereals|Any

Tavar|Yes|Yes|Lunars|Solars|Godblooded?|Any

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-13, 06:36 AM
Well, we had our second Exalted session; here I am, trying to keep things interesting for them, but nonetheless we got dragged off-track about every three minutes on average. :smallsigh:

Also, we literally had a five-hour gap between when the first players showed up, and the last players showed up. :smallannoyed: This meant the first two hours had us watching humorously-cutting reviews of nostalgic TV shows and movies as we waited, which while not a terrible way to pass the time, would've been fun to game with. I realize that these people have schedules and all, but even awesome things have a way of becoming tedious when they're being used to keep you from going insane from waiting. :smallmad: Even if he remembers it so you don't have to! :smalltongue:

This next thing's a bit of a minor nitpick, but two of the PCs in the group seem to be, well, jaded toward the Dragon-blooded... by which I mean they don't even acknowledge them as a threat. I realize that the two players have some experience when it comes to playing high-powered Exalts, but this is an introductory game, with starting characters. It... it just bugs me, y'know? :smallconfused:

"They're just Terrestrials" should be akin to a starting Gangrel saying, "It's just a SWAT team," as far as I'm concerned. :smallsigh:

EDIT: Okay, yeah, I'm done complaining, for now. :smalltongue: I still had some fun at the game, so that's something to be grateful for. :smallsmile:

Lix Lorn
2011-02-13, 10:13 AM
Posting the table again. Like I said; I'll do this every few pages or so til we're on the new thread, then I'll just post it once (hopefully on the first page) and edit it from there. Probably stick a link in my sig, though Jukashi may need one in his since I don't post too often.

Check your line of the table, if there is an asterisk in one of the cells, tell me what to put there instead either by posting here or PMing me. ST is a Yes, No or Maybe question and Favoured Game Style (as the new note in that column's head should indicate) means the game styles found in the core book on page 262. Feel free to use acronyms if necessary.
It'll have to be ST: No for now then, and 'any' for favoured game style.

IcarusWings
2011-02-13, 10:20 AM
Check your line of the table, if there is an asterisk in one of the cells, tell me what to put there instead either by posting here or PMing me. ST is a Yes, No or Maybe question and Favoured Game Style (as the new note in that column's head should indicate) means the game styles found in the core book on page 262. Feel free to use acronyms if necessary.


Put "maybe" in my ST column then.

Sanguine
2011-02-13, 10:59 AM
-snip-

I guess put maybe under ST then.

Weimann
2011-02-13, 11:21 AM
ST: Maybe

Player: Maybe

Favoured game style: None

Arcanoi
2011-02-13, 11:37 AM
This next thing's a bit of a minor nitpick, but two of the PCs in the group seem to be, well, jaded toward the Dragon-blooded... by which I mean they don't even acknowledge them as a threat. I realize that the two players have some experience when it comes to playing high-powered Exalts, but this is an introductory game, with starting characters. It... it just bugs me, y'know? :smallconfused:


Wyld Hunt arrives. Threshing Floor Method them seven times in one round. More jade than they can handle. Problem solved!

Tavar
2011-02-13, 11:50 AM
Once again proving my great mechanics reading skills, is there a problem with the Lunar charmset? I've seen several people mentioning wanting a fix, but if so, what's the issue?

Reynard
2011-02-13, 11:55 AM
It massively restricts Lunars to two kinds:

Smashysmashy natural attack users.
Prettypretty mindrapers.

Sure, you can build a Lunar that uses weapons, or a socialite that DOESN'T just blow everyone's brains with obscene amounts of Appearance, but it's really, really hard to do it and not suck.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-13, 11:57 AM
Once again proving my great mechanics reading skills, is there a problem with the Lunar charmset? I've seen several people mentioning wanting a fix, but if so, what's the issue?

The simplest problem is, disregarding everything else, the Attribute-based Charm trees were new (the Lunar Charms in First Edition were also Attribute-based, but the Charm trees were not), so the Attribute minimums and Charm tree placements are odd and possibly crippling.

A more complex problem is how Lunars don't have a theme. In the First Edition, they were a hot mess of Wyld-worshipping, civilization-hating, leaf-wiping barbarians and were barely designed to be playable (their original concept was that of Exalted antagonists, so I assume no one cared that much until right before the book was finished). In the Second Edition, they tried to fix that by making their fluff more player-friendly, but in the process forgot to actually give them anything to set them apart from silver-colored Solars.

Tavar
2011-02-13, 11:58 AM
Ah. Truthfully, I have noticed some of that, looking over their charms, I simply though that the areas I was looking at weren't well supported(eg, crafting)

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-13, 02:56 PM
HeyguysguesswhatHOMEBREW!

This time I want to make an SMA designed to let the user rapidly and repetedly phase into/out of Elsewhere (Or some other dimension, whatever has to be done to get non-fiddly fluff) for actions such as one-on-one forced dueling or teleportation flurry attacks. Think about it. Perfect Dodges that work because, instead of avoiding an attack, you are simply not there, and crap like that. Thoughts? (Though I'll probably only work on this, and that Infernal style I had in the works, once I have a better grasp of the game.)

Also, can someone please fill in for ST here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182914)? I've already been through several games I've either failed to get into or have simply failed to start, and I'm getting sick of it. I have, so far, never played a single game of Exalted. It's irritating me to no end.

Jokasti
2011-02-13, 03:09 PM
HeyguysguesswhatHOMEBREW!

This time I want to make an SMA designed to let the user rapidly and repetedly phase into/out of Elsewhere (Or some other dimension, whatever has to be done to get non-fiddly fluff) for actions such as one-on-one forced dueling or teleportation flurry attacks. Think about it. Perfect Dodges that work because, instead of avoiding an attack, you are simply not there, and crap like that. Thoughts? (Though I'll probably only work on this, and that Infernal style I had in the works, once I have a better grasp of the game.)

Also, can someone please fill in for ST here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182914)? I've already been through several games I've either failed to get into or have simply failed to start, and I'm getting sick of it. I have, so far, never played a single game of Exalted. It's irritating me to no end.

I think Revlid is working on a Portal-based space-manipulating SMA which sounds similar to what you describe.

Lord Raziere
2011-02-13, 03:10 PM
The simplest problem is, disregarding everything else, the Attribute-based Charm trees were new (the Lunar Charms in First Edition were also Attribute-based, but the Charm trees were not), so the Attribute minimums and Charm tree placements are odd and possibly crippling.

A more complex problem is how Lunars don't have a theme. In the First Edition, they were a hot mess of Wyld-worshipping, civilization-hating, leaf-wiping barbarians and were barely designed to be playable (their original concept was that of Exalted antagonists, so I assume no one cared that much until right before the book was finished). In the Second Edition, they tried to fix that by making their fluff more player-friendly, but in the process forgot to actually give them anything to set them apart from silver-colored Solars.

I dunno, I got a strong shape-shifting and "for Luna!" the-

oh. thats what you mean by silver colored solars. forget it.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-13, 03:27 PM
I think Revlid is working on a Portal-based space-manipulating SMA which sounds similar to what you describe.

Darn. Ah well, saves me the work.

ShadowFighter15
2011-02-13, 04:23 PM
List updated with the stuff people posted on the last page.

Player|ST?|Player?|1st Choice Exalted|2nd Choice Exalted|3rd Choice Exalted| Favoured Game Style (Listed on p262 of Core)

ShadowFighter15|No|Yes|Lunar|Alchemical|D-B|Just about anything

Lix Lorn|No|Always|Solar|D-B|Alchemical|Any

Sanguine|Maybe|Yes|Infernal|Alchemical|Lunar|Anyth ing and everything.

Skybound Fencer|Maybe|Yes|Lunar|D-B|Solar|Anything

Mikal|*|Yes|Solar|Solar|Infernal|*

tonberrian|No|Yes|Infernals|Fixed Sidereals|Alchemicals|*

Guancyto|Yes|Yes|Alchemicals|Infernals|Abyssals|Mo st things

Lord Raziere|No|Yes|Dragon Blooded|Lunars|Sidereals|Any

The Rose Dragon|Maybe|Yes|Abyssals (and DK)|Solars|Sidereals|*

Golentan|Yes|Yes|Terrestrials|Infernals|Alchemical s|*

Drascin|*|Yes|Alchemicals|D-B, Fae|Non-Abyssal|*

IcarusWings|Maybe|Yes|Alchemicals|DK|D-B|Any

a humble lich|Maybe|Yes|Sidereals|Lunars|D/God-Blooded|Any

Vegetalss4|Maybe|Yes|Alchemicals|D-B, Infernals|Everything else|any

Weimann|Maybe|Maybe|D-B|Alchemicals|I dunno|None

DCGFTW|No|Yes|Alchemicals|Infernals|Dragon Kings?|*

Jokasti|Yes|Yes|Infernals/Solars|Alchemicals|Fixed Sidereals|Any

Tavar|Yes|Yes|Lunars|Solars|Godblooded?|Any

Drascin
2011-02-13, 04:35 PM
Ah. Truthfully, I have noticed some of that, looking over their charms, I simply though that the areas I was looking at weren't well supported(eg, crafting)

There's that too. Lunar Charms have a lot of physical Charms, and they're pretty decent, while Lunar Social Charms seem to be mostly taking one solar charm and splitting its functions among two or three Lunar Charm and brainy concepts basically require fully making up new Charm trees. Compare, for example the 28 Strength Charms in the base book with the 13 Intelligence Charms, and of those Intelligence Charms, several are really of extremely limited usefulness in the average chronicle (such as the "give other Lunar tatoos" charm).

SurlySeraph
2011-02-13, 05:18 PM
Would I go amiss in saying that in general Solars are Social, Lunars are Physical, and Sidereals are Mental? In terms of their fluff roles, at least?

EDIT: Also, something kinda big occurred to me.

The Sidereal Charm trees are linked to constellations.
Constellations are made of stars.
Stars represent gods.
Sidereals have several ways to make new gods.

My first thought was to expand existing Charm trees by creating new gods such that their stars merge into existing constellations. Then in a fit of OCD I looked over the picture of the constellations in the Astrology chapter of MOEP: Sidereals and determined that the number of stars in a constellation doesn't seem to be correlated with the number of charms in the linked charm tree. So I concluded that that was a nonstarter.

On the other hand, making an entirely new constellation sounds doable, and much more open in what it would allow. Of course, it probably wouldn't be intrinsically linked to one of the existing abilities, which could make the entire project a nonstarter, but with enough bureaucratic wrangling anything is possible.

So, what Caste would "Forge a new constellation according to my specifications, thus letting us make an end-run around the Maidens and make our own new Charms?" be an appropriate Motivation for?

Also, on a side note, I'm curious whether there's been any attempt to define what stars in the Constellations correspond to what gods, and whether the Breaking of the Mask involved assassinating some of its constituent gods in addition to the existing fluff about overloading it with astrology.

I've also become enamored of the idea that someone's decided "Hey, breaking the Mask worked out great. We should break more constellations! The Haywain's associated with corruption and decay, so clearly the best way to put the Celestial Bureaucracy back in order is to kill its constituent gods!"

Xefas
2011-02-13, 07:50 PM
Would I go amiss in saying that in general Solars are Social, Lunars are Physical, and Sidereals are Mental? In terms of their fluff roles, at least?

Sort of. All of them were constructed as weapons to murder the Primordials, so I suppose you could say all Exalts started as "Physical", except Terrestrials, who were meant to lead armies, so I guess they were "Social"? Even the Sidereals seemed to be focusing on Kung Fu Fighting during the Primordial War.

But, after that, they needed tertiary roles so you didn't have a bunch of super weapons with itchy trigger fingers milling about getting ever more jittery and bored. So, Solars are Lawgivers - they run things. I guess that counts as Social, as they don't do so much paperwork - they just motivate other people to do paperwork really well. Sidereals are Viziers; they're supposed to be the smarty pants that make sure the Solars aren't being morons.

Lunars...well, Lunars suffer from a lack of interesting fluff and themes as it is. I guess they seem more Physical, because we don't know a lot about what they did in the First Age, and in the Second Age, they're barbarians. They have command of their "physical" form, and they're..."Stewards". Maybe they were bodyguards? Bodyguard/gold-diggers? (Hilarious pun?)

Of course, this isn't all that useful of a distinction, because Solars were also responsible for the vast ubiquitous-ness of artifacts in the First Age, which requires two maxed Mental stats. So there you go. And Sidereals were still milling about making new Kung Fu stuff.

Sanguine
2011-02-13, 07:53 PM
except Terrestrials, who were meant to lead armies,

Terrestrials didn't lead armies. That's what the Solars did. Terrestrials made up the rank-and-file of the armies.

Tavar
2011-02-13, 08:01 PM
Hey, someone wants to use this artifact, or a more balanced version of the artifact, in a game I'm running. A high essence, high power game, but I think this artifact might be a mite much. Advice?


Daiklave of Battle
Edition: Second
Rating: ●●●●●
Category: Weapon
Commitment: 10 motes
Magical Material: Orichalcum
Source: RRimmel

As one of the legendary blades forged in the First Age, the Daiklave of Battle was forged around the same time as the Daiklave of Conquest. The Solar who forged the blade believed that while the Daiklave of Conquest was a great blade for the leader of an army, it lacked effectiveness in one on one battles and to demonstrate this a new Daiklave was forged.

The Daiklave of Battle became more powerful as the wielder's Essence increases and was considered a mark of high station for Solar's who frequently battled against the Wyld. There are only 2 known copies of this blade to exist, one as part of a matched set including a Daiklave of Conquest in the Empresses personal collection and the other was sold to a dealer in Nexus, though his current location is unknown.

The Daiklave of Battle is a standard Orichalcum Daiklave. As the wielder's Essence score increases other abilities become appearent. It has slots for 5 hearthstons.

At Essence 2 all attacks made with the Daiklave of Battle count as Holy.

At Essence 3 the wielder's DVs are increased by 1/2 his Essence score, rounded up.

At Essence 4 the Daiklave of Battle gains a pool of temporary willpower equal to the wielder's Essence. This willpower can only be used to activate combos that include melee charms, even if the combo include non-melee charms. Stunts that would normally increase the character's willpower pool can instead be used to restore this pool. This pool replenishes automatically at a rate of one point per day. If a Solar's willpower is full, additional points that would be recovered can be used to replenish this pool.

At Essnce 5, the owner gains the ability to increase the traits of the weapon by committing extra motes. Every mote committed will raise either Accuracy, Damage, Defense or Rate by one. No trait may be raised by more than the owner's Melee score.

At Essence 6 under the light of a 11+ mote Anima Banner the Daiklave of Battle undergoes a transformation. The blade glows with the light of the Unconquered Sun and simmers with his rightous fury. When this blade hits an opponent, it deals extra aggravated damage equal to the owner's essence that is unsoakable.

Against all armor the weapon gains the piercing flag, save against orichalcum armor.
Speed 5 Accuracy +4 Damage +6L Defense +4 Rate 4 Min Str 2 Tags: None


edit: One of the designers talked a bit about what the Sid's did during the war. Essentially, they were advisors, trainers, and the like. And if they went into combat with a Primordial, they died. They're charms aren't strong like a solars, and they don't have the sheer toughness of Lunars.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-14, 11:01 AM
By the way, other than that teensy-bit in the Abyssals book, has anyone published anything more on the Dowager of the Irrationally Long Title? :smalltongue: The bit on the Well of Udr and the Mound of Seeds in the Noss Fens really sounded like I could use it, but I've yet to find anything more on it.

Also, does anyone else find it a tad unreasonable that the Well of Udr instantly kills you when you look into it, with no chance to prevent it unless you happen to be packing a perfect mental defense? :smallconfused: I mean, at least in the case of the instantly-lethal traps in the Under the Rose adventure, they gave the circle of Exalts the perfect defense that'd prevent it from taking effect, y'know?

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-14, 11:39 AM
Without Charms, Exalts are only slightly hardier than mortals. As such, a supernatural effect powerful enough can instantly slay an Exalt who does not prepare a proper Charm-based defense.

However, most of those effects have the Shaping keyword, and thus can be foiled by an Integrity 1, Essence 1 Charm.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-14, 11:57 AM
Without Charms, Exalts are only slightly hardier than mortals. As such, a supernatural effect powerful enough can instantly slay an Exalt who does not prepare a proper Charm-based defense.

However, most of those effects have the Shaping keyword, and thus can be foiled by an Integrity 1, Essence 1 Charm.I'm aware of that, but the insta-gibbing done by the Well doesn't say it's Shaping, and requires a perfect mental defense to prevent. And Elusive Dream Defense is a little harder to snag than IPP. :smallsigh:

And I gotta say, I'm just plain unfond of "you die with no roll" things in general. That's the sort of stuff that leads to the dreaded paranoia builds. And if a perfect Shaping defense is really that necessary to a character's survival, IPP should just be built into the Solar character creation process, something like, "Select nine Charms for which you meet the prerequisites, and Integrity-Protecting Prana."

Kylarra
2011-02-14, 12:07 PM
And if a perfect Shaping defense is really that necessary to a character's survival, IPP should just be built into the Solar character creation process, something like, "Select nine Charms for which you meet the prerequisites, and Integrity-Protecting Prana."Just like DBT is built into Lunar char creation. :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-14, 12:11 PM
And I gotta say, I'm just plain unfond of "you die with no roll" things in general. That's the sort of stuff that leads to the dreaded paranoia builds. And if a perfect Shaping defense is really that necessary to a character's survival, IPP should just be built into the Solar character creation process, something like, "Select nine Charms for which you meet the prerequisites, and Integrity-Protecting Prana."

More like "select two Charms and Integrity-Protecting Prana, Any Integrity Excellency, Temptation-Resisting Stance, Elusive Dream Defense, Shadow Over Water, Seven Shadow Evasion, Leaping Dodge Method, Reflex Sidestep Technique, Any Dawn Caste Excellency" if you really want to go that route.

Tavar
2011-02-14, 12:38 PM
Doesn't the Well have the equivalent of flashing neon warning signs? Yeah, it's a harsh penalty, but somethings deserve the penalty. Just make sure that it's obvious that this thing is bad news. It shouldn't even be that hard if you, say, have to deal with a deathlord in order to get to it.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-14, 12:48 PM
It shouldn't even be that hard if you, say, have to deal with a deathlord in order to get to it.Actually, it's the other way around; if Dowager has to fight, she'll use her bow to harpoon people, and when that stops being a viable action, force the opposition to fight her at the Well, where she has a natural advantage.

Tavar
2011-02-14, 12:50 PM
Don't they have to look into it first? Plus, I'd be hesitant about taking enemies to a place where, if they don't die, they could gain the means to destroy me.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-14, 12:52 PM
Don't they have to look into it first?Even being around it strips dots of permanent Willpower. :smalleek: If that's not an advantage, something's seriously wrong.


Plus, I'd be hesitant about taking enemies to a place where, if they don't die, they could gain the means to destroy me....what? :smallconfused: What means are those, exactly?

Oh, and concerning the "flashing neon signs," they might just attribute that to the Deathlord herself...

Reynard
2011-02-14, 01:09 PM
Hey, someone wants to use this artifact, or a more balanced version of the artifact, in a game I'm running. A high essence, high power game, but I think this artifact might be a mite much. Advice?


Daiklave of Battle
Edition: Second
Rating: ●●●●●
Category: Weapon
Commitment: 10 motes
Magical Material: Orichalcum
Source: RRimmel

As one of the legendary blades forged in the First Age, the Daiklave of Battle was forged around the same time as the Daiklave of Conquest. The Solar who forged the blade believed that while the Daiklave of Conquest was a great blade for the leader of an army, it lacked effectiveness in one on one battles and to demonstrate this a new Daiklave was forged.

The Daiklave of Battle became more powerful as the wielder's Essence increases and was considered a mark of high station for Solar's who frequently battled against the Wyld. There are only 2 known copies of this blade to exist, one as part of a matched set including a Daiklave of Conquest in the Empresses personal collection and the other was sold to a dealer in Nexus, though his current location is unknown.

The Daiklave of Battle is a standard Orichalcum Daiklave. As the wielder's Essence score increases other abilities become appearent. It has slots for 5 hearthstons.

At Essence 2 all attacks made with the Daiklave of Battle count as Holy.

At Essence 3 the wielder's DVs are increased by 1/2 his Essence score, rounded up.

At Essence 4 the Daiklave of Battle gains a pool of temporary willpower equal to the wielder's Essence. This willpower can only be used to activate combos that include melee charms, even if the combo include non-melee charms. Stunts that would normally increase the character's willpower pool can instead be used to restore this pool. This pool replenishes automatically at a rate of one point per day. If a Solar's willpower is full, additional points that would be recovered can be used to replenish this pool.

At Essnce 5, the owner gains the ability to increase the traits of the weapon by committing extra motes. Every mote committed will raise either Accuracy, Damage, Defense or Rate by one. No trait may be raised by more than the owner's Melee score.

At Essence 6 under the light of a 11+ mote Anima Banner the Daiklave of Battle undergoes a transformation. The blade glows with the light of the Unconquered Sun and simmers with his rightous fury. When this blade hits an opponent, it deals extra aggravated damage equal to the owner's essence that is unsoakable.

Against all armor the weapon gains the piercing flag, save against orichalcum armor.
Speed 5 Accuracy +4 Damage +6L Defense +4 Rate 4 Min Str 2 Tags: None


edit: One of the designers talked a bit about what the Sid's did during the war. Essentially, they were advisors, trainers, and the like. And if they went into combat with a Primordial, they died. They're charms aren't strong like a solars, and they don't have the sheer toughness of Lunars.

Kill it with fire.

Kylarra
2011-02-14, 01:11 PM
Hey, someone wants to use this artifact, or a more balanced version of the artifact, in a game I'm running. A high essence, high power game, but I think this artifact might be a mite much. Advice?


Daiklave of Battle
Edition: Second
Rating: ●●●●●
Category: Weapon
Commitment: 10 motes
Magical Material: Orichalcum
Source: RRimmel

As one of the legendary blades forged in the First Age, the Daiklave of Battle was forged around the same time as the Daiklave of Conquest. The Solar who forged the blade believed that while the Daiklave of Conquest was a great blade for the leader of an army, it lacked effectiveness in one on one battles and to demonstrate this a new Daiklave was forged.

The Daiklave of Battle became more powerful as the wielder's Essence increases and was considered a mark of high station for Solar's who frequently battled against the Wyld. There are only 2 known copies of this blade to exist, one as part of a matched set including a Daiklave of Conquest in the Empresses personal collection and the other was sold to a dealer in Nexus, though his current location is unknown.

The Daiklave of Battle is a standard Orichalcum Daiklave. As the wielder's Essence score increases other abilities become appearent. It has slots for 5 hearthstons.

At Essence 2 all attacks made with the Daiklave of Battle count as Holy.

At Essence 3 the wielder's DVs are increased by 1/2 his Essence score, rounded up.

At Essence 4 the Daiklave of Battle gains a pool of temporary willpower equal to the wielder's Essence. This willpower can only be used to activate combos that include melee charms, even if the combo include non-melee charms. Stunts that would normally increase the character's willpower pool can instead be used to restore this pool. This pool replenishes automatically at a rate of one point per day. If a Solar's willpower is full, additional points that would be recovered can be used to replenish this pool.

At Essnce 5, the owner gains the ability to increase the traits of the weapon by committing extra motes. Every mote committed will raise either Accuracy, Damage, Defense or Rate by one. No trait may be raised by more than the owner's Melee score.

At Essence 6 under the light of a 11+ mote Anima Banner the Daiklave of Battle undergoes a transformation. The blade glows with the light of the Unconquered Sun and simmers with his rightous fury. When this blade hits an opponent, it deals extra aggravated damage equal to the owner's essence that is unsoakable.

Against all armor the weapon gains the piercing flag, save against orichalcum armor.
Speed 5 Accuracy +4 Damage +6L Defense +4 Rate 4 Min Str 2 Tags: None


edit: One of the designers talked a bit about what the Sid's did during the war. Essentially, they were advisors, trainers, and the like. And if they went into combat with a Primordial, they died. They're charms aren't strong like a solars, and they don't have the sheer toughness of Lunars.It's ridiculous. Don't let them.

Tavar
2011-02-14, 01:56 PM
It's ridiculous. Don't let them.


Kill it with fire.
So...any suggestions on how to make it balanced? Or, if it really is a hopeless cause, how to make an artifact that gets more powerful with the user, and make it decent?

Just to be clear, I wasn't worried about the first, essence two ability. At least, not in the game it's for. In normal games, probably make it cost 1 mote to activate as a reflexive, non-charm activation power.

But after that...Holy crap. Massive improvements to DV's, More Willpower. Boosting the artifact's stats for cheap.... It's just too good. And that's a toned down version from the original.

Even being around it strips dots of permanent Willpower. :smalleek: If that's not an advantage, something's seriously wrong.
You're fight a deathlord in their personal place of power. You're going to need hefty defences. I'd probably weaken that somewhat. Give a slightly less painful way to escape it for essence weilders, as well as make that only happen if the targets have less than X Mental Dodge Defense.

...what? :smallconfused: What means are those, exactly?
Isn't the well where the Great Contagion started? She hasn't found anything really useful since then, but that's a big risk.

Oh, and concerning the "flashing neon signs," they might just attribute that to the Deathlord herself...
If you're attacking the person in their main base of operations, then about half the signs refer not to the villain, but their defenses and traps and such.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-14, 02:06 PM
I'd probably weaken that somewhat. Give a slightly less painful way to escape it for essence weilders, as well as make that only happen if the targets have less than X Mental Dodge Defense.Well, the losing-Willpower bit technically works subtracting your MDV from ten; any remainder is directly removed from your permanent Willpower. So, you could be immune to that part simply by dint of having an MDV of 10+.
Isn't the well where the Great Contagion started?That's where she summoned it, yes, but what's that got to do with destroying her? :smallconfused:
She hasn't found anything really useful since then, but that's a big risk.How? :smallconfused:

SurlySeraph
2011-02-14, 02:16 PM
*Five hearthstone slots? I don't see much brokenness you can do with that, granted, but why five?
*Pretty nice base stats. Piercing, though? Oy.
*Essence 2: All attacks count as Holy? That's pretty nice, especially at Essence 2.
*Essence 3: 1/2 Essence to DVs in addition to having +4 Defense? Pretty nice, but not ludicrous.
*Essence 4: A temporary Willpower pool that stop right there. This is too useful for paranoia combat to be reasonable. Reserve of Will is for spirits and other things that need the help.
*Essence 5: So a bit like Infinite Melee Master-ing 5 motes on the First Melee Excellency forever, above your normal dice cap, but to just one stat of your weapon. But then you can increase your Rate. If rate is capped at 5 as usual, this is plausible for an Essence 5 effect, but I'm leery of it.
*Essence 6: Eh, it's at Essence 6. Looks reasonable there.

In conclusion, maybe it would be OK if you took out the extra combos-only Willpower pool, had to do maintenance and use a Hearthstone to power it like with Celestial Battle Armor, and also fluffed it to be a big "I'M A VERY POWERFUL ANATHEMA SEND WARSTRIDERS" beacon like with CBA. But "It's not all that much more powerful than Celestial Battle Armor" is not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Tavar
2011-02-14, 02:16 PM
By my understanding, by looking into the well, you see things. Anything you can see, you can potentially bring through the well, into creation. The Well can show extremely powerful things, as evidenced by the Great Contagion. Thus, you can pull something powerful out of the well. Perhaps something that could destroy a deathlord. Thus, it's a risk. Especially against beings who have the means to do it.

Xefas
2011-02-14, 03:40 PM
So, I just finished my very first Martial Arts style (the first one I feel like is worth posting, anyway). I'll just leave this here.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/mrsatan.jpg

"Yeah, I could probably beat up, like, fifty ten-year-olds." ~ Mr. Satan, master of the Dolorous Carnifex Style (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187324)

Kyeudo
2011-02-15, 01:48 AM
As you might or might not know, I've been working away trying to come up with a way to put some more teeth into social combat without making it so a social character can mind control yours into doing whatever they say. I'd like to know how much I've failed.

What I've done is here (http://www.mediafire.com/?gfkp8hx4l7sbg08). I think I've got a good balance between influencing behavior and being able to playing your own character and that this is fairly workable. This fix is not meant to model anything other than an argument or a debate - when these rules come out, two or more characters should be trying to convince each other that they are right and the other guy is wrong. Any negotiations or collaborating between characters is not supported by this and should be handled by roleplaying. I also have not yet done any work with Charms. This is purely laying a foundation upon which to build later.

Any comments or criticism would be appreciated.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-15, 12:17 PM
So, game idea: Each and every mortal and Exalt was killed by the Great Contagion 2.0, except for 700 children, now aged 8-14. They are raised and taught by Dragon Kings in a distant manse hidden and secured from the various supernatural monsters that want to kill those children and groomed to inherit the Exaltations left behind.

Also, those children are responsible for repopulating Creation.

Tavar
2011-02-15, 12:21 PM
So, the discussion of Lunars and their lacks got me thinking. Seems to me that besides the small charm selection, they don't have much to distinguish their charms from other exalts. This got me to thinking about what they have that's different. Well, they have Shapeshifting, but that's not going to be helpful in non combat or non stealth areas, and those two seem pretty covered. But that led me to the other thing that's different. Gift/fury charms. The former probably can't be addapted, seeing as how they're tied with DBT, which is all about combat. But the latter... Right now they're all tied with combat, but that's because the charm they key off of, Relentless Lunar's Fury, is about combat. Would it help matters to make a version that's about, say, social combat? Or something else? Obviously this would require expanding the fury-ok keyword to other charms, and probably making new charms to fix their lack of charms, but would it at least give them something to help set them apart?

Sanguine
2011-02-15, 12:29 PM
So, game idea: Each and every mortal and Exalt was killed by the Great Contagion 2.0, except for 700 children, now aged 8-14. They are raised and taught by Dragon Kings in a distant manse hidden and secured from the various supernatural monsters that want to kill those children and groomed to inherit the Exaltations left behind.

Also, those children are responsible for repopulating Creation.

I would so play in that.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-15, 12:46 PM
I would so play in that.

Just to be clear, though, those children? They are still mortals. None of them Exalted yet, and almost everyone left alive (and ghosts) wants them dead.

It's not really meant to be an ordinary Exalted game.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-15, 12:47 PM
I swear one of those kids (Preferably one further into the aging process) will take that far too seriously. Bonus points if that person happens to be Abyssal.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-15, 12:50 PM
Take what far too seriously?

Kyeudo
2011-02-15, 12:51 PM
So, the discussion of Lunars and their lacks got me thinking. Seems to me that besides the small charm selection, they don't have much to distinguish their charms from other exalts. This got me to thinking about what they have that's different. Well, they have Shapeshifting, but that's not going to be helpful in non combat or non stealth areas, and those two seem pretty covered. But that led me to the other thing that's different. Gift/fury charms. The former probably can't be addapted, seeing as how they're tied with DBT, which is all about combat. But the latter... Right now they're all tied with combat, but that's because the charm they key off of, Relentless Lunar's Fury, is about combat. Would it help matters to make a version that's about, say, social combat? Or something else? Obviously this would require expanding the fury-ok keyword to other charms, and probably making new charms to fix their lack of charms, but would it at least give them something to help set them apart?

Lunars already have two other "Fury" Charms that have no "Fury"-Ok Charms to go with them - Inevitable Genius Insight and Irresistable Silver Spirit. Expansions on these would be nice.

Sanguine
2011-02-15, 12:51 PM
Just to be clear, though, those children? They are still mortals. None of them Exalted yet, and almost everyone left alive (and ghosts) wants them dead.

It's not really meant to be an ordinary Exalted game.

Yeah I understood that. I would still totally play in that game.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-15, 12:52 PM
Yeah I understood that. I would still totally play in that.

Just making sure. Another friend changed her mind after I made that clear.

Cyborg Mage
2011-02-15, 12:57 PM
Take what far too seriously?

Sorry, forgot to quote. I mean the whole "repopulating Creation" thing.

golentan
2011-02-15, 01:09 PM
So, odd-ish question. What would a world where *everyone* was a terrestrial exalt look like? Technologically, culturally, what have you.

I'm thinking they'd be able to maintain Shogunate level technology pretty reliably, probably rely on an all summoned workforce, never use anything flammable in construction work ever...

Dragnar
2011-02-15, 01:10 PM
So, the discussion of Lunars and their lacks got me thinking. Seems to me that besides the small charm selection, they don't have much to distinguish their charms from other exalts. This got me to thinking about what they have that's different. Well, they have Shapeshifting, but that's not going to be helpful in non combat or non stealth areas, and those two seem pretty covered. But that led me to the other thing that's different. Gift/fury charms. The former probably can't be addapted, seeing as how they're tied with DBT, which is all about combat. But the latter... Right now they're all tied with combat, but that's because the charm they key off of, Relentless Lunar's Fury, is about combat. Would it help matters to make a version that's about, say, social combat? Or something else? Obviously this would require expanding the fury-ok keyword to other charms, and probably making new charms to fix their lack of charms, but would it at least give them something to help set them apart?
Well, lunars are supposed to be good at adapting. But at the moment, the adaptations they are actually capable of? Almost all combat related. What if instead of new fury charms, you gave them alternatives to DBT? Why limit them to just War Form when they could also have a Social Form, a Sorcerous/scolarly form(to be fair, I have no idea how that would work), etc. Instead of mastering one aspect of the game, they could shift their mastery around as the situation demanded.

IcarusWings
2011-02-15, 01:25 PM
So, game idea: Each and every mortal and Exalt was killed by the Great Contagion 2.0, except for 700 children, now aged 8-14. They are raised and taught by Dragon Kings in a distant manse hidden and secured from the various supernatural monsters that want to kill those children and groomed to inherit the Exaltations left behind.

Also, those children are responsible for repopulating Creation.

Sounds pretty cool. Colour me interested.

Drascin
2011-02-15, 01:25 PM
Well, lunars are supposed to be good at adapting. But at the moment, the adaptations they are actually capable of? Almost all combat related. What if instead of new fury charms, you gave them alternatives to DBT? Why limit them to just War Form when they could also have a Social Form, a Sorcerous/scolarly form(to be fair, I have no idea how that would work), etc. Instead of mastering one aspect of the game, they could shift their mastery around as the situation demanded.

There's been attempts to do precisely that kind of thing before in other boards, to my knowledge. They are usually drowned in "but shapeshifting is physical only! Mental altering Knacks are stupiiiiid!" cries.

Xefas
2011-02-15, 02:04 PM
There's been attempts to do precisely that kind of thing before in other boards, to my knowledge. They are usually drowned in "but shapeshifting is physical only! Mental altering Knacks are stupiiiiid!" cries.

Do they not realize that being "smart" or "social" or anything really, is dependent on your physical brain? You could say that good social skills require life experience and intuition that needs to be learned, but memories are just neuronal signals stored in the brain.

And I think Lunars might be a bit better distinguished if they could shapeshift their own thoughts, memories, and emotions via messing with their brain.

IcarusWings
2011-02-15, 02:25 PM
Plus you can always fluff it as them not only shifting their form, but also their instincts into those of a beast.

Drascin
2011-02-15, 03:00 PM
Do they not realize that being "smart" or "social" or anything really, is dependent on your physical brain? You could say that good social skills require life experience and intuition that needs to be learned, but memories are just neuronal signals stored in the brain.

And I think Lunars might be a bit better distinguished if they could shapeshift their own thoughts, memories, and emotions via messing with their brain.

Indeed. Though I will admit I'm a bit stumped as to how the mental form would look. The Social form is easy - a totemic, awe-inspiring (humanoid or no) version of your spirit shape (think Aztec or Egyptian gods). But the mental one is less obvious.

And of course, deciding what else it should give. Mutations seem kind of silly to give for Social or Mental forms unless we also make a host of socially and mentally useful mutations to go with them, since the grand majority of mutations in canon right now are purely physical.

Xefas
2011-02-15, 03:32 PM
Indeed. Though I will admit I'm a bit stumped as to how the mental form would look. The Social form is easy - a totemic, awe-inspiring (humanoid or no) version of your spirit shape (think Aztec or Egyptian gods). But the mental one is less obvious.

And of course, deciding what else it should give. Mutations seem kind of silly to give for Social or Mental forms unless we also make a host of socially and mentally useful mutations to go with them, since the grand majority of mutations in canon right now are purely physical.

Personally, I've never been a particular fan of plant&animal, I guess what you would call, "Nature" themes (although that term has weird semantics anyway). I'm also not really sure why Lunars have the animal theme. I'm also not sure why the animal theme is in a Celestial spot in the hierarchy.

My thoughts are that if I were going to have an Animal-Barbarian Exalt, they'd be another Terrestrial level Exaltation.

If I were to redesign Lunars from the ground up, keeping them in the place they are now, I'd completely scrap the animal-centric thing and go straight for "adaptation" and "chaos", which I think have a lot more to do with the Moon. It always struck me as odd that it went Sun -> Furries -> Stars -> Metals -> Elements. I'd prefer to emphasize the Moon portion a lot more.

Would they still be able to shapeshift into animals? Certainly. But only because those would be the easiest forms to mimic. Hell, I might start them out with animals + human shapeshifting instead of requiring a knack for the latter. And those wouldn't be considered "normal" to stay at. It would be "normal" to go up through the ranks, transforming into gods, demons, and behemoths, until you get to the apex where you're just making **** up and becoming new, weird, chaos-y lifeforms at Elder essence levels. Their "transcendence", in the same way that Infernals become people + primordials, so they get all the primordial stuff while gaining power from the fact that they're also people, would be to become like tiny mirrors of the Wyld, but with what was once a human center point, which allows them to ground themselves and gain more power than any mere Raksha/Unshaped/whatever the hell those unshaped+ were called.

And, along the way, you're getting charms that allow you to modify your forms, like giving them wings and claws and such. But also stuff like modifying your brain so you just don't have the part that makes you feel sad anymore. Or giving yourself a memory of loving parents that were murdered by a Deathlord so that you now have this insane drive to get vengeance on that Deathlord. Or giving yourself a second consciousness, different from your primary one, that only pops out to eat unnatural mental influence or to live through your horrible moments of pain, before putting you back in control so you don't have to experience those things.

Or, and I don't think the current Lunar charmset gets into this much if at all, but shapeshifting other people. That would make for some nice support or scary bad touch charms. Teach mortals the Melee skill by erasing their memories and making them think they've all been gritty hardasses their whole life. Then shapeshift the part of their brain that lets them feel pain, and the part them makes them feel empathy for living things, out of them and let 'em loose.

That's just me, though. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, just that's what I want out of Lunars. I think most people want badass furries, which is fine. I want transhumans that work all the way up to Cthulhu and then become trans-cthulhus.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-15, 03:40 PM
(Snip)

That's just me, though. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, just that's what I want out of Lunars. I think most people want badass furries, which is fine. I want transhumans that work all the way up to Cthulhu and then become trans-cthulhus.
That sounds pretty awesome to me. It'd still be possibly to be a badass furry, after all. :smalltongue:

Reynard
2011-02-15, 03:40 PM
You can turn people into whatever-you-have-the-hearts-blood-of with a couple of knacks, but they're pretty crappy knacks.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-15, 05:06 PM
The whole "shapeshift your miiind" concept makes a lot of sense. Charms or Knacks that let you temporarily shift around your Intimacies or even Motivation and Virtues would be interesting. I don't know Lunars enough to make an attempt, but I'd love to see a homebrew along those lines.

@Xefas: Dolorous Carnifex looks good; I wrote a couple comments on it.


So, game idea: Each and every mortal and Exalt was killed by the Great Contagion 2.0, except for 700 children, now aged 8-14. They are raised and taught by Dragon Kings in a distant manse hidden and secured from the various supernatural monsters that want to kill those children and groomed to inherit the Exaltations left behind.

Also, those children are responsible for repopulating Creation.

I would demand an explanation for how there's any Creation left. (Raksha, demons, and ghosts can't stop fighting long enough to wyld-ify or hellify or Shadowlands-ify it?) Speaking of which, I'd demand an explanation for why Creation didn't just become one big Shadowland, since everyone's dead.

And I might want to start as Half-Castes, for two reasons.
First, if you're all unawakened mortal children, you should logically die the instant you step outside, and so there wouldn't be as much latitude for rebellion, exploration, and awesomeness as I'd want. (I mean, you're kids destined to be awesome, some of whom may have ghosts or demons or whatnot whispering in your mind that you're destined to have power over them and you should come outside right now. You have to try to sneak out. It's the genre). Unless the hidden manse is truly massive and truly weird.
Second, having some Exalted-ish traits and/or a decent sense of who's going to Exalt as what would allow more for variety, cliqueishness, group rivalries, and the other middle-school-politics stuff you'd need. Plus it allows for more Shocking Swerve moments, where the nice kid with a shiny forehead who's always protecting his friends from bullies becomes a Slayer, the nerd who sits in a cobweb-filled room under the observatory writing flowcharts of possible events becomes a No Moon, the designated couple turn out to not be Solar and Lunar mates, etc.

Other than that, sounds good.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-15, 05:12 PM
I would demand an explanation for how there's any Creation left. (Raksha, demons, and ghosts can't stop fighting long enough to wyld-ify or hellify or Shadowlands-ify it?) Speaking of which, I'd demand an explanation for why Creation didn't just become one big Shadowland, since everyone's dead.

The Kukla did it. Also, only mortals and Exalted died - spirits, Jadeborn, Dragon Kings and such are still around to keep Creation safe (for very low values thereof).


First, if you're all unawakened mortal children, you should logically die the instant you step outside, and so there wouldn't be as much latitude for rebellion, exploration, and awesomeness as I'd want. (I mean, you're kids destined to be awesome, some of whom may have ghosts or demons or whatnot whispering in your mind that you're destined to have power over them and you should come outside right now. You have to try to sneak out. It's the genre). Unless the hidden manse is truly massive and truly weird.

The manse is massive and labyrinthine (it's bigger in the inside than the outside!). Also, you are surrounded by Dragon Kings dedicated to keeping you alive and safe. If you do manage to get out, you will probably Exalt immediately due to your awesome deed.


Second, having some Exalted-ish traits and/or a decent sense of who's going to Exalt as what would allow more for variety, cliqueishness, group rivalries, and the other middle-school-politics stuff you'd need. Plus it allows for more Shocking Swerve moments, where the nice kid with a shiny forehead who's always protecting his friends from bullies becomes a Slayer, the nerd who sits in a cobweb-filled room under the observatory writing flowcharts of possible events becomes a No Moon, the designated couple turn out to not be Solar and Lunar mates, etc.

Making them Half-Castes would actually prevent that, since they cannot Exalt as any Exalt type other than their parents' Exaltation (Solar and Abyssal Half-Castes might Exalt as Abyssals and Solars, respectively, but that's still not canon).

SurlySeraph
2011-02-15, 05:30 PM
The Kukla did it. Also, only mortals and Exalted died - spirits, Jadeborn, Dragon Kings and such are still around to keep Creation safe (for very low values thereof).

The manse is massive and labyrinthine (it's bigger in the inside than the outside!). Also, you are surrounded by Dragon Kings dedicated to keeping you alive and safe. If you do manage to get out, you will probably Exalt immediately due to your awesome deed.

Good explanations on both counts. I do find it hard to imagine playing for more than a session without someone becoming hellbent on sneaking out, but that works - and if someone *does* manage, they have a chance of getting back alive, which is good. Plus space-warping and newly discovered hidden passages could allow for plenty of ongoing exploration in the manse, which is good.


Making them Half-Castes would actually prevent that, since they cannot Exalt as any Exalt type other than their parents' Exaltation (Solar and Abyssal Half-Castes might Exalt as Abyssals and Solars, respectively, but that's still not canon).

*checks*
"It is completely unheard of for a Half-Caste to Exalt as a different type of Chosen than his parent. Caste may differ, but the marks of destiny in the character’s blood has pledged her to the service of the Unconquered Sun, Luna, the Maidens or the Yozis even before she was born, and this cannot be changed."
Not even Solaroids Exalting as different kinds of Solaroids? I could have sworn I read something about a Solar Half-Caste becoming an Infernal. Scroll of Heroes, you are dead to me now more than ever!

Alright then. I'd still advocate for some hints at who'll Exalt as what and reasonably rapid increases in power, since I have a hard time imagining "You're trapped feeble mortal children" and "You're destined to be awesome and being trained in how" meshing well for more than a few sessions; certainly Awakened Essence and TMA should become available fairly soon. I'd also support the kids outnumbering the Dragon Kings and being fairly out of control - not Lord of the Flies level, at least at first, but certainly less regimented than a typical school.

horngeek
2011-02-15, 05:32 PM
One Charm that makes sense with Lunars...

Commanded To Fly. Instead of outright going 'screw you' to mental influence, the Lunar instead turns a mind control of 'kill your Solar Mate' to 'kill your Solar Mate while juggling teacups and dancing the macarena' and then goes 'okay, that's just silly'.

Awesome, fits Lunars, and awesome.

Did I mention awesome?

In any case, that's the sort of Charm to mimic. Actually, a couple of Lunar Social Charms work well, mostly Manipulation ones. Give people your Intimacies, take on the mind of an animal of avoid a social attack... list goes on.

Xefas
2011-02-16, 04:41 AM
O, great one, meschlum
I beseech thee with haiku
Raksha info, please

Assuming my prayer roll succeeded, is there a way for a Fair Folk to make some kind of soul, or soul-like thing, and give it to themselves? Such that if a charm were scanning people and checking "Does X have a soul?", it would register "Yes, this guy has a soul", without having to use some power to just fool or deny the charm wholesale?

Teln
2011-02-16, 07:37 PM
I had a thought about exactly why no Lunars have ascended to Cthulhu-hood yet, despite having almost 5 alternate-calendar millennia to do the job in: It's the moonsilver tattoos that make it possible.

I envision the tattoos acting like the control rods in a nuclear reactor, safely preventing China Syndrome--which in this analogy means Chimerahood. The problem is, the rods are jammed in all the way. A catastrophic meltdown is completely and utterly impossible, but the tradeoff is that you can't get the reactor running. But with an operator that has enough training, you can take the rods out further and further before you start risking a meltdown.

You recall how in MoEP: Lunars, there are some Lunars who are convinced that the way to true power is by rejecting the Caste-fixing tattoos? They're all wrong, and the reason their experiments keep ending in disaster is because they're trying to fire up the reactor without any control rods whatsoever. Their predictable failures have spooked the other Lunars so badly that nobody's willing to shake up the status quo--and honestly, who can blame them?

Mr.Bookworm
2011-02-16, 09:50 PM
I had a thought about exactly why no Lunars have ascended to Cthulhu-hood yet, despite having almost 5 alternate-calendar millennia to do the job in: It's the moonsilver tattoos that make it possible.

While what you're saying does sound like a neat story idea (or Motivation, for the Mad Scientist Lunar), the only reason a canon Cthulhu!Lunar isn't running around is because all of the Elders were given the tattoos. If Ma-Ha Suchi hadn't had his descent into Chimerism stopped, or if Lilith hadn't been captured...

Well, take a look at the Chimera Knacks, and extrapolate from there. There's an Essence 6 Knack that gives you near Deathlord-level immortality, and the Elders are higher Essence then that.

meschlum
2011-02-16, 10:37 PM
O, great one, meschlum
I beseech thee with haiku
Raksha info, please

Assuming my prayer roll succeeded, is there a way for a Fair Folk to make some kind of soul, or soul-like thing, and give it to themselves? Such that if a charm were scanning people and checking "Does X have a soul?", it would register "Yes, this guy has a soul", without having to use some power to just fool or deny the charm wholesale?

(regains 1 willpower)

A challenging request, with a range of solutions, from the easy to the ludicrous.

- Easy:

Find a friendly ensouled being (mortals are easy, Faeblooded are convenient, Exalts are amusing)
Use Assumption of the Person's Heart to become a Wyld taint on your chosen carrier.
Share your powers with your carrier, granting them most of your abilities within Creation, albeit with lower Attributes and Abilities overall.
Scanning to establish whether your carrier has a soul will get the reply "Of course he does!". If you happen to be using a faeblood, you have a convenient excuse for any wyld energies the scanner might detect. Mortals are a lot easier to take complete control of, though.

- Slightly hallucinatory:

Use Spectral Transformation to take on the form of a ghost.
Anyone checking you for souls will establish that you most definitely are a Po (or Hun) soul.
Sadly, this fails if the sensor has high Occult. And if you touch cold iron.

If you can prod your GM into allowing an 'Emotional Transformation' charm, linked to Dreams and Passion, you can use it to fake being an ordinary mortal - and thus register as having a full soul if anyone looks.

- Rather convoluted:

Find a mortal, make it like you.
Use Assumption of Dreams and Passion to copy them exactly.
Use Assumption of the Person's Heart to link yourself to them.
Share your multiple iterations of the Small mutation with the mortal, so that they are tiny.
Swallow the mortal. Optionally, store the mortal in a Chancel inside your stomach.
If anyone tries to detect souls, switch and become tiny while the mortal grows to full size.
This is a variation on the first method with special effects that increase your odds of success. It also lets you use your full abilities most of the time.

If you're feeling creative, have a full range of mortals to copy hidden in your chancel, and swap between them. this does require a little time to rotate between bodies though (and maybe picking up a few Large mutations in order to swallow the full size 'spares').

- Over the top:

Be a Heroic Commoner Warrior or Worker with Birth 5 (the Heroic Commoner is the part that matters, you want Ring 5 and Sword 4) and Essence 3.
Find a mortal.
Apply Behemoth Forging Meditation over and over without making any obvious changes. Delusions like "The Fair Folk know what's best for me" are ideal.
Repeat the above until the mortal hits 10 mutation points. The mortal still has a soul (as it is a mutated mortal). Do NOT break its will and attune to it.
Grant your new toy all four Graces.
Open the mortal's Cup Grace (or any other, really) via Gaping Virtue Mouth.
You now face an ensouled being that is also a commoner Raksha. Employ social conflict (or shaping) to make it consent.
Apply Harmonious Primordial Spirit to your pet, embedding your Staff Grace.
You now own a being that knows and follows your every desire, is a (mutated and insane) mortal according to any tests applied, and has a soul.
Teach your pet Harmonious Primordial Spirit (this requires Essence 3)
Have your pet embed one of its Graces in you.
You now know everything your mortal pet desires, are utterly loyal to it, and have therefore attained two way telepathy over infinite distances.
Set off on a grand adventure as your pet, being a Fair Folk with a (severely mutated) soul.
If you die, learn Nature Eliminating Knife.
Destroy your Staff Grace.
As a Warrior friendly alternative, find out if breaking an Adjuration can destroy your Staff Grace. If so, do it.
Forge yourself a new Staff Grace.
Repeat the process.

- Custom:

Check if you can get a custom charm extension to Soul Consuming Hunger, letting you slowly dissolve it and 'hold' it in yourself. Possibly with Bottomless Dream Gullet involved somewhere.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-17, 03:04 AM
Would it be a bad house rule to allow Appearance 0 to count as your Essence maximum for purposes of intimidation, rather than a flat 5?

Kyeudo
2011-02-17, 03:16 AM
Would it be a bad house rule to allow Appearance 0 to count as your Essence maximum for purposes of intimidation, rather than a flat 5?

It's essentially free Appearance dots is the problem. If the only time you are really going to be trying to get your way in social combat is through intimidation, getting Appearance 0 is a way to buff your social ability AND free up dots for other things. Giving away too many free dots would make it desirable long term.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-17, 03:23 AM
It's essentially free Appearance dots is the problem. If the only time you are really going to be trying to get your way in social combat is through intimidation, getting Appearance 0 is a way to buff your social ability AND free up dots for other things. Giving away too many free dots would make it desirable long term.

Well, it won't matter in most games, since they never reach Essence 6+. But at those games that do, Appearance 0 essentially means giving Attribute-based Exalts a means to screw you socially.

And besides, it only allows you to resist intimidation attempts anyway. You're still screwed against non-intimidation attacks.

Kyeudo
2011-02-17, 03:38 AM
Well, it won't matter in most games, since they never reach Essence 6+. But at those games that do, Appearance 0 essentially means giving Attribute-based Exalts a means to screw you socially.

And besides, it only allows you to resist intimidation attempts anyway. You're still screwed against non-intimidation attacks.

Appearance in general is poorly implemented. It is the god-stat of social combat in ways that exceed what Dexterity does for normal combat.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-17, 06:12 AM
I just had a weird idea about a high-Compassion Solar learning about the true nature of the Green Sun Princes and meeting one later.

Solar: "Who is a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Are you a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Yesh you are! Yesh you are! You are the cutest little baby Primordial!"

Green Sun Prince: "I am a monster of such indomitable power, I hold the might of the creators in my hands and my soul. My anima burns with the power of their king's heart, and nothing can stop in the path of my evolution."

Solar: "Aww, isn't he adorable? He is trying to make sounds."

Because as we all know, Green Sun Princes are baby titans and that's what they should be treated as: babies.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-17, 06:16 AM
...why do I get the image of the Solar dying painfully moments later? :smalltongue:

Jokasti
2011-02-17, 08:41 AM
I just had a weird idea about a high-Compassion Solar learning about the true nature of the Green Sun Princes and meeting one later.

Solar: "Who is a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Are you a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Yesh you are! Yesh you are! You are the cutest little baby Primordial!"

Green Sun Prince: "I am a monster of such indomitable power, I hold the might of the creators in my hands and my soul. My anima burns with the power of their king's heart, and nothing can stop in the path of my evolution."

Solar: "Aww, isn't he adorable? He is trying to make sounds."

Because as we all know, Green Sun Princes are baby titans and that's what they should be treated as: babies.
The Littlest Titan: A Tale of Struggle, Hope, and Leveling the Eastern Direction

SurlySeraph
2011-02-17, 09:27 AM
Oh that reminds me. Kyeudo, I read through your social fix a couple days ago and while I'm currently too sleep-deprived to make very useful comments, here are some thoughts:
I'm not sure that splitting Intimacies into different categories by Virtue is a good idea; I don't think it adds enough to be worth the complication.
Kudos on making Socialize actually useful.
The effects for having your will broken are pretty harsh and seem hard to avoid, but that's probably as it should be.
Dismissal looks potentially too powerful; it seems like whoever has lower Manipulation + Socialize is pretty much screwed. I think you might have left something out, since the "If a dismissed character fails to successfully rejoin social combat before he fails his (Socialize) rolls, he is removed from social combat entirely" bit doesn't seem connected to a time limit or maximum number of rolls to rejoin he can attempt.
Entrapment seems like it could drag things out a lot, but since repeatedly attempting to Withdraw raises your MDVs vs Entrapment I'm not sure it would be a big problem.
I'm not sure linking Intelligence to Dodge MDV makes sense. Partly because many of the smartest people I know are completely incapable of ignoring misinformed statements, partly because I'm not sure Int should be that valuable in social combat. Parry MDV looks good, though.
Alarm bells went off for me when I saw the phrase "social soak," but on further thought using the virtue you're playing on as the base damage and the opposed virtue as soak is a great idea. This does seem to leave room for arguing over which Virtue most opposes the attacker's intent; you might want to say that if the player can justify it it's probably fine, or that the ST has say, or something at least.
I agree that Appearance is too much of a social god-stat, but I think you may have gone too far in the opposite direction, making Appearance mostly pointless and Manipulation important for everything.

Kyeudo
2011-02-17, 10:16 AM
I'm not sure that splitting Intimacies into different categories by Virtue is a good idea; I don't think it adds enough to be worth the complication.


I'm trying to keep Conviction from being another of those things that you always need to max, since this fix makes your Virtues into damage, soak, and health levels. Splitting up the Intimacies across the Virtues makes compelling certain types of behavior harder on some characters than others.



The effects for having your will broken are pretty harsh and seem hard to avoid, but that's probably as it should be.


Think of it in terms of scenes. It will take the average Exalt twelve scenes of fighting his own Intimacies to hit 0 Willpower and then he has about two weeks to get back up to full Willpower. Stunts work really fast at getting you Willpower and then Duties and Loyalties get you additional sources of Willpower gain.



Dismissal looks potentially too powerful; it seems like whoever has lower Manipulation + Socialize is pretty much screwed. I think you might have left something out, since the "If a dismissed character fails to successfully rejoin social combat before he fails his (Socialize) rolls, he is removed from social combat entirely" bit doesn't seem connected to a time limit or maximum number of rolls to rejoin he can attempt.


The idea is that characters trying to escape a dismissal need to make opposed rolls to get back in. They only can attempt their Socialize in rolls before they just are taken out of the conversation entirely. It's sort of a social grapple, which means they are as hard to escape as a real grapple.



Entrapment seems like it could drag things out a lot, but since repeatedly attempting to Withdraw raises your MDVs vs Entrapment I'm not sure it would be a big problem.


The whole point of Entrapment is to draw things out a bit. If someone is brought into social combat and doesn't want to cede anything, their best move is to spam the Withdraw action. His opponents then need to spam Entrapment and flurry their social attacks with it to actually try to get their point across before their quarry escapes.



I'm not sure linking Intelligence to Dodge MDV makes sense. Partly because many of the smartest people I know are completely incapable of ignoring misinformed statements, partly because I'm not sure Int should be that valuable in social combat. Parry MDV looks good, though.


I was tired of Willpower making your Dodge MDV your best MDV always and giving social Lunars and Alchemicals the shaft. I chose Intelligence because all of the existing Dodge MDV interacting Charms for Lunars and Alchemicals are based on Intelligence.



Alarm bells went off for me when I saw the phrase "social soak," but on further thought using the virtue you're playing on as the base damage and the opposed virtue as soak is a great idea. This does seem to leave room for arguing over which Virtue most opposes the attacker's intent; you might want to say that if the player can justify it it's probably fine, or that the ST has say, or something at least.


Good point. I'll get that into the next draft.



I agree that Appearance is too much of a social god-stat, but I think you may have gone too far in the opposite direction, making Appearance mostly pointless and Manipulation important for everything.

There didn't seem to be an acceptable compromise with Appearance. If I left it doing things the way it used to, it was godlike in power in the Social arena. Making it work like the other Attributes leaves it pathetic, but at least it isn't the alpha and omega of social stats anymore. If you have a compromise, I'm more than willing to listen.

knightMARE
2011-02-18, 08:32 PM
Infernals can become primordials once they get to high enough essence. From what I've heard, alchemicals will become cities. Do other exalt types have special things that happen to them at high essence?

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-18, 08:35 PM
Infernals can become primordials once they get to high enough essence. From what I've heard, alchemicals will become cities. Do other exalt types have special things that happen to them at high essence?

Solars get to stay Solars, which is as good as you can get. Terrestrials may become some undefined different thing when they reach Essence 9 and buy that medicine Charm 5 times. Abyssals can bypass the Neverborn in their pursuit of Oblivion and become direct avatars of destruction and murder. Sidereals get more esoteric Sidereal Martial Arts as they go. Lunars... well, Lunars get bigger animal shapes.

Xefas
2011-02-18, 08:38 PM
Infernals can become primordials once they get to high enough essence. From what I've heard, alchemicals will become cities. Do other exalt types have special things that happen to them at high essence?

Officially:
Solars can also become Primordials if they really want to (they typically don't).

Semi-officially:
It's also hinted at in Dreams of the First Age that Terrestrials that reach Essence 10 and buy "Transcendent Gaian Harmony" five times might reach some kind of never-before-seen apotheosis into a higher form of being.

Psuedo-officially:
There exists a legendary quote. Somewhere. Somewhere, there is a developer that says definitively that every kind of Exalted gets the option to transform into something decidedly inhuman at some point. Everyone gets the chance to transcend to a higher state.

I make pilgrimages into the internet to find this quote almost daily.

Kylarra
2011-02-18, 09:02 PM
I'm always amused by high essence Lunars being singular mass-combat units of magnitude by themselves.

tonberrian
2011-02-18, 09:34 PM
I make pilgrimages into the internet to find this quote almost daily.

Tell me when you find your Shining Answer quote.

Xefas
2011-02-18, 09:39 PM
Tell me when you find your Shining Answer quote.

Oh, I shall. And then I'll finally be able to post my Sidereal "Screw the maidens, hack the Loom of Fate, throw off the artificial limiters put on your charm set to keep Sidereals from accidentally breaking causality and the universe, and then transcend into a giant living constellation that exists as a manifest embodiment of Creation's physics engine" charm tree.

EDIT: Also, OH CRAP, I forgot to thank meschlum. :smalleek: Thank you for all the raksha advice. I'm in the process of making a character with that info to hopefully post in the repository once its done.

Kris Strife
2011-02-19, 06:07 AM
I just realized something. Kingdom Hearts takes place in Creation.

Key Blade wielders are Solar exalts. The Key Blades are Glorious Solar Sabers, Strike Raid is Iron Raptor Technique, and the blasts they can shoot out are Blazing Solar Bolts, etc. Sora's a Dawn, Riku has Terra's exaltation shard, which became corrupted and is now being redeemed... The Key Blade War was an apocalyptic battle between the various Exalts that shattered Creation, leaving only scattered pockets of existence, which is the various worlds you go to.

Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc are all Beastmen or have Wyld Mutations. Nobodies are high essence ghosts, Heartless are demons/akuma.

Drascin
2011-02-19, 06:43 AM
By the way, now that we're talking about Raksha - am I understanding Imposition of Law wrong? I mean, it talks about how "the vulnerability to Stunts is a unique flaw of invulnerability" - but as I'm reading it, the thing does not allow you to perfectly defend at all. In any rolls that aren't attack, it's not "automatic pass the roll", it's "add a single automatic success", isn't it? Success as in, the stuff that the Second Excellency gives you by the boatload? What's there requiring a Flaw of Invulnerability? :smallconfused:

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 06:54 AM
A single automatic success after external penalties, actually. Not that it helps defense, it not being a rolled trait, but it still allows you to succeed despite an external penalty of -26.

IcarusWings
2011-02-19, 06:57 AM
I just realized something. Kingdom Hearts takes place in Creation.

Key Blade wielders are Solar exalts. The Key Blades are Glorious Solar Sabers, Strike Raid is Iron Raptor Technique, and the blasts they can shoot out are Blazing Solar Bolts, etc. Sora's a Dawn, Riku has Terra's exaltation shard, which became corrupted and is now being redeemed... The Key Blade War was an apocalyptic battle between the various Exalts that shattered Creation, leaving only scattered pockets of existence, which is the various worlds you go to.

Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc are all Beastmen or have Wyld Mutations. Nobodies are high essence ghosts, Heartless are demons/akuma.

Must... resist... urge... to run... KH... Exalted Game...

Argh! It's no use! You may be able to expect this game to appear in the Recruitment Boards soon enough (along with Harry Potter-inspired-game too).

Lix Lorn
2011-02-19, 08:23 AM
Must... resist... urge... to run... KH... Exalted Game...

Argh! It's no use! You may be able to expect this game to appear in the Recruitment Boards soon enough (along with Harry Potter-inspired-game too).
Must play!
...
Despite not playing KH!

Drascin
2011-02-19, 10:24 AM
A single automatic success after external penalties, actually. Not that it helps defense, it not being a rolled trait, but it still allows you to succeed despite an external penalty of -26.

Still, makes the writeup confusing. Why does it give perfect infallible precision in attacks, but mild to low competence everywhere else? And why the hulabaloo about Flaw of Invulnerability when there is nothing invulnerable here?

Grumble grumble friggin' Exalted writers...


Must... resist... urge... to run... KH... Exalted Game...

Argh! It's no use! You may be able to expect this game to appear in the Recruitment Boards soon enough (along with Harry Potter-inspired-game too).

KH in Exalted?

...well, I guess there are some similarities. Sora dies in two hits despite being having the firepower of a small country's army, there's about three characters with an ounce of common sense in between almost all games, and there are so many world-ending plots going on at once that you need a flowchart to keep up :smalltongue:.

Though Mickey would have to be a Solar as well, at the very least, not a simple standard beastman. Mickie and Minnie can cast Holy in a game where Holy is an indicative of being seriously freaking pure and Light-y and all that jazz - got to count for something (funny idea - elevated Mice of the Sun? He is a mouse, after all! :smalltongue:). Sora is clear Solar, while Riku looks like an Abyssal, but quacks like an Infernal, so, tossup. Maleficent is evidently an Ebon Dragon/Malfeas Infernal (probably up enough in the trees to have the "must backstab everyone even when it will end up being to my detriment". Because, dammit, Maleficent) while Xehanort is... kind of what the Deathlords want to be when they grow up, really :smallwink:

Tavar
2011-02-19, 10:44 AM
Well, we've had high essence alchemical combat, but I think I've just found high essence Solar Social combat.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIO4Uw36-JE).

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-19, 12:11 PM
So, Byron Ferguson as an Exalt... my guess is, five dots in Archery, a bunch of Charms, and a three-dot Specialty in Trick Shots. :smalltongue:

Jokasti
2011-02-19, 01:12 PM
Officially:
Solars can also become Primordials if they really want to (they typically don't).

Semi-officially:
It's also hinted at in Dreams of the First Age that Terrestrials that reach Essence 10 and buy "Transcendent Gaian Harmony" five times might reach some kind of never-before-seen apotheosis into a higher form of being.

Psuedo-officially:
There exists a legendary quote. Somewhere. Somewhere, there is a developer that says definitively that every kind of Exalted gets the option to transform into something decidedly inhuman at some point. Everyone gets the chance to transcend to a higher state.

I make pilgrimages into the internet to find this quote almost daily.

I heard Solars don't bother going through Apotheosis because there is no Solar+, so Primordializing would just limit you further based on your Excellency etc.

Kyeudo
2011-02-19, 01:15 PM
I don't like the idea of apothesis in general, as it implies there is something more awesome than being an Exalt.

Xefas
2011-02-19, 02:41 PM
I don't like the idea of apothesis in general, as it implies there is something more awesome than being an Exalt.

Is being a Heretic Titan lame because you're no longer an Exalt? Absolutely not, because you're still an Exalt. Sure, we have an example that Infernals and Solars can become Primordials, but that's a step backward so they don't do it if they know any better (keeping in mind that player characters don't have perfect information; canon-wise GSPs know they can become Yozi. They don't even know that Heretical charms exist, much less the Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger tree).

But, we have an example of the opposite. When you go the Devil-Tiger route, its not the Exalt part that you get rid of, it's the human part. You become Titan + Exalt. Solars, Sidereals, Lunars, and Terrestrials could all have a similar option, where they become Something + Exalt.

I see this complaint a lot, but I think its a clear example of a fallacy of false dichotomy. Yes, there is nothing better than being an Exalt, but there is something better than being human.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 02:57 PM
Is being a Heretic Titan lame because you're no longer an Exalt? Absolutely not, because you're still an Exalt. Sure, we have an example that Infernals and Solars can become Primordials, but that's a step backward so they don't do it if they know any better (keeping in mind that player characters don't have perfect information; canon-wise GSPs know they can become Yozi. They don't even know that Heretical charms exist, much less the Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger tree).

But, we have an example of the opposite. When you go the Devil-Tiger route, its not the Exalt part that you get rid of, it's the human part. You become Titan + Exalt. Solars, Sidereals, Lunars, and Terrestrials could all have a similar option, where they become Something + Exalt.

I see this complaint a lot, but I think its a clear example of a fallacy of false dichotomy. Yes, there is nothing better than being an Exalt, but there is something better than being human.

If you are no longer human, you can no longer sustain an Exaltation. Green Sun Princes who become proto-titanic-Exalts are still human (though very powerful ones).

The reason Green Sun Princes get to transcend (in canon, that is) is because they start out limited by the capabilities of Primordials, who, while possessed of a lot of XP, are otherwise less powerful and capable than Solar Exalted of the same amount of XP (which is, again, a lot). They transcend it by creating their own thematic Charm set, not by losing their humanity. Solars have no such limitations - they are only held back by their Ability ratings and permanent Essence. That's why Solars don't get to transcend - there is no "up" to go to.

meschlum
2011-02-19, 03:04 PM
Still, makes the writeup confusing. Why does it give perfect infallible precision in attacks, but mild to low competence everywhere else? And why the hulabaloo about Flaw of Invulnerability when there is nothing invulnerable here?

Grumble grumble friggin' Exalted writers...

You've got part of your answer right there. I mean, besides the comments on the writers. In 1e, all defenses were rolled - so Imposition of Law helped you attack and defend. Plus, if your GM allowed the winner of an attack / defend rolloff to hit (i.e. counterattack if the defender), things got very scary very fast.

IoL only gives one net success, so it's mostly ownership of a Big Stick that gives massive combat advantage. If you want protection from damage, look at the Bastion of the Self (Heart) charm - same stunt vulnerable immunity, applies to all pain coming your way.

Of course, because the Exalted writers Do Not Approve of the Fair Folk (it seems), Bastion of the Self is now ruled to fail if the attacker uses an Excellency - so if you just put 1 mote into attacking, a Charm that otherwise makes you immune to terminal velocity impacts with a giant propeller will fail.

Ahem. Reining in the rant.

There are a few areas in 2e where opposed rolls occur, hence IoL might inherit a Flaw of Invulnerability that way. Specifically, Picking Pockets requires an opposed roll, so IoL means automatic theft occurs, even on the most potent Exalts and gods. It's really borderline and friendly reading of the text, I will grant.

That said, there are Specialties in Dodge which can technically be augmented by IoL, so while I wouldn't allow a single iteration of IoL to provide 'perfect' attacks and parries, I'd allow it to provide one or the other.

And inward facing oneiromancies mean that you have as many versions of IoL running as you want, anyway.

Xefas
2011-02-19, 03:05 PM
If you are no longer human, you can no longer sustain an Exaltation. Green Sun Princes who become proto-titanic-Exalts are still human (though very powerful ones).

This has been debated a lot on the White Wolf forums, and the only thing I can figure is that the word "human" in the statement "You must be human to be an Exalt" is essentially meaningless.

A Lunar can be a fox who is also an Exalt. Or she can be a demon who is also an Exalt. Infernals can be giant living sandstorms who are also Exalts. Alchemicals are never human, who are also Exalts. Solars can use a medicine charm to strap on enough mutations to be a giant spider-crab-dragon and still be an Exalt.

That ship has sailed. When Infernals are immortal, cosmically powerful beings that have absolutely no trait in common with a human, then they aren't human. And they're still allowed to be an Exalt.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 03:09 PM
This has been debated a lot on the White Wolf forums, and the only thing I can figure is that the word "human" in the statement "You must be human to be an Exalt" is essentially meaningless.

A Lunar can be a fox who is also an Exalt. Or she can be a demon who is also an Exalt. Infernals can be giant living sandstorms who are also Exalts. Alchemicals are never human, who are also Exalts. Solars can use a medicine charm to strap on enough mutations to be a giant spider-crab-dragon and still be an Exalt.

That ship has sailed. When Infernals are immortal, cosmically powerful beings that have absolutely no trait in common with a human, then they aren't human. And they're still allowed to be an Exalt.

Alchemicals are human. Lunars who gain other shapes are still human. The same with Infernals.

Humanity has nothing to do with your physical appearance and everything to do with the way your soul is built. As long as you are capable of sustaining an Exaltation, you are human. The moment you stop being human, you stop being an Exalt.

Xefas
2011-02-19, 03:14 PM
Alchemicals are human. Lunars who gain other shapes are still human. The same with Infernals.

Humanity has nothing to do with your physical appearance and everything to do with the way your soul is built. As long as you are capable of sustaining an Exaltation, you are human. The moment you stop being human, you stop being an Exalt.

Alright. Let me rephrase it then.


Is being a Heretic Titan lame because you're no longer an Exalt? Absolutely not, because you're still an Exalt. Sure, we have an example that Infernals and Solars can become Primordials, but that's a step backward so they don't do it if they know any better (keeping in mind that player characters don't have perfect information; canon-wise GSPs know they can become Yozi. They don't even know that Heretical charms exist, much less the Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger tree).

But, we have an example of the opposite. When you go the Devil-Tiger route, its not the Exalt part that you get rid of, it's the human (every human trait possible except for your soul such that you're functionally a different kind of being but technically still human) part. You become Titan (with a human soul so you're technically still human even though you're functionally different in every way) + Exalt. Solars, Sidereals, Lunars, and Terrestrials could all have a similar option, where they become Something (that is still technically human but functionally different in every other way) + Exalt.

I see this complaint a lot, but I think its a clear example of a fallacy of false dichotomy. Yes, there is nothing better than being an Exalt, but there is something better than being human (having all human traits except for a soul, which you'll keep so you're technically still human even though you're functionally different in every way that matters).

Kyeudo
2011-02-19, 03:25 PM
Once you cease to be human, you cease to be interesting as a character.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 03:27 PM
There is nothing else that matters but the soul in Exalted for classification as a human. Look at the beastmen, for example. They are still human, even though they might have eight legs, no head and tentacles for arms. As long as they have a hun soul and a po soul attached together, they are human. There are other beings that look human, act human and otherwise function as human, but are not human because they do not have the right soul.

The limits cast aside by Green Sun Princes are not that of humanity, it's that of being a Primordial. It's like having the best hardware of the world but being limited to DOS for your computing needs. Heretical-keyworded Charms just allow you to upgrade your operating system. Solars already come packaged with the best hardware and operating system. What are you gonna transcend to?

Xefas
2011-02-19, 03:27 PM
Once you cease to be human, you cease to be interesting as a character.

I disagree, and I think you're making a hasty, sweeping generalization.


There is nothing else that matters but the soul in Exalted for classification as a human. Look at the beastmen, for example. They are still human, even though they might have eight legs, no head and tentacles for arms. As long as they have a hun soul and a po soul attached together, they are human. There are other beings that look human, act human and otherwise function as human, but are not human because they do not have the right soul.

The limits cast aside by Green Sun Princes are not that of humanity, it's that of being a Primordial. It's like having the best hardware of the world but being limited to DOS for your computing needs. Heretical-keyworded Charms just allow you to upgrade your operating system. Solars already come packaged with the best hardware and operating system. What are you gonna transcend to?

Yes. You said "human". I said "human". We meant different things. It's called arguing semantics.

Solars could theoretically transcend in the same way that a computer could, theoretically, one day build a better computer than themselves. And then that computer could do the same. And so on. It's a classic sci-fi thing.

Drascin
2011-02-19, 03:31 PM
You've got part of your answer right there. I mean, besides the comments on the writers. In 1e, all defenses were rolled - so Imposition of Law helped you attack and defend. Plus, if your GM allowed the winner of an attack / defend rolloff to hit (i.e. counterattack if the defender), things got very scary very fast.

IoL only gives one net success, so it's mostly ownership of a Big Stick that gives massive combat advantage. If you want protection from damage, look at the Bastion of the Self (Heart) charm - same stunt vulnerable immunity, applies to all pain coming your way.

Of course, because the Exalted writers Do Not Approve of the Fair Folk (it seems), Bastion of the Self is now ruled to fail if the attacker uses an Excellency - so if you just put 1 mote into attacking, a Charm that otherwise makes you immune to terminal velocity impacts with a giant propeller will fail.

Ahem. Reining in the rant.

There are a few areas in 2e where opposed rolls occur, hence IoL might inherit a Flaw of Invulnerability that way. Specifically, Picking Pockets requires an opposed roll, so IoL means automatic theft occurs, even on the most potent Exalts and gods. It's really borderline and friendly reading of the text, I will grant.

Kind of reading what isn't there, to be honest. A pity, because the Charm would be really cool otherwise. But, fact is, says nothing about opposed rolls - it says "attacks". Does stealing from someone count as an attack?


That said, there are Specialties in Dodge which can technically be augmented by IoL, so while I wouldn't allow a single iteration of IoL to provide 'perfect' attacks and parries, I'd allow it to provide one or the other.

...but specialties in Dodge from IoL would give a single success - that is, a +1DV - because it's not an attack.


And inward facing oneiromancies mean that you have as many versions of IoL running as you want, anyway.

Now that's true. Still, sad that such a defining Charm is so utterly unworthy of being purchased with actual XP and relegated to an artifact-only power.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 03:37 PM
That's because the raksha artifacts are silly. Few Charms are worth taking on their own, because their artifacts give them so much more power and flexibility.

Kyeudo
2011-02-19, 03:38 PM
I disagree, and I think you're making a hasty, sweeping generalization.


Not really. The things that make us care about a character is their hopes and dreams, their feelings and drives. If you strip away everything that makes a character human, you strip away all that makes your Green Sun Prince different from a monster in a horror movie. It wants what it wants because it is that thing's nature to want whatever it is that it wants, not because it chose to want it. All the remains is whether to destroy the monster or not.

Xefas
2011-02-19, 03:43 PM
Not really. The things that make us care about a character is their hopes and dreams, their feelings and drives. If you strip away everything that makes a character human, you strip away all that makes your Green Sun Prince different from a monster in a horror movie. It wants what it wants because it is that thing's nature to want whatever it is that it wants, not because it chose to want it. All the remains is whether to destroy the monster or not.

I disagree. Though this may be another case of us using different terms for "human".

I think Doctor Manhattan was an interesting character. I also don't think he was human in any way. If you think he had even a tiny bit of humanity left, then we're operating under different definitions, and so the argument is pointless.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 03:46 PM
Doctor Manhattan himself would disagree. After all, he had exactly the same amount and distribution of molecules as a human. There is no intrinsic difference between him and any other human. Sure, he lost his intrinsic field for a while, but he got it back. Why would he be less human than you in any way that matters?

Also, a pantsless body contains the same amount of molecules as one with pants, Nite Owl. Observe (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1913561).

Jokasti
2011-02-19, 03:48 PM
Are Raksha human? Do you not think Raksha can be interesting characters?

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 03:48 PM
Are Raksha human? Do you not think Raksha can be interesting characters?

Personally, no, and no.

Xefas
2011-02-19, 03:50 PM
Doctor Manhattan himself would disagree. After all, he had exactly the same amount and distribution of molecules as a human. There is no intrinsic difference between him and any other human. Sure, he lost his intrinsic field for a while, but he got it back. Why would he be less human than you in any way that matters?

If he ever made that distinction, I would say that it reinforces his transhumanism, not his humanity.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-19, 04:01 PM
If he ever made that distinction, I would say that it reinforces his transhumanism, not his humanity.

See, that's you being racist. :smalltongue:

((I'm kidding. Please don't shoot me.))

But honestly, you are arguing from an OOC perspective, while I'm arguing from an IC perspective. That is pretty much all the difference. You, the real world person you are, believe there is a philosophical debate to be had in the nature of humanity. There is no such thing in Exalted. Human means capable of Exalting, because it has the right hun and po soul. That's it.

Weimann
2011-02-19, 04:02 PM
Quickie question: does anyone have a link to the alternative Lunar creation rules handy? The ones that an author leaked in a chat log or something?

In other news: the official Exalted Wiki sucks.

Xefas
2011-02-19, 04:03 PM
But honestly, you are arguing from an OOC perspective, while I'm arguing from an IC perspective. That is pretty much all the difference. You, the real world person you are, believe there is a philosophical debate to be had in the nature of humanity. There is no such thing in Exalted. Human means capable of Exalting, because it has the right hun and po soul. That's it.

Yes, I acknowledged that, and then I amended my post to be more precise in my meaning.


Quickie question: does anyone have a link to the alternative Lunar creation rules handy? The ones that an author leaked in a chat log or something?

In other news: the official Exalted Wiki sucks.

Here it is. (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Peter_Schaefer_on_Lunar_Character_ Generation) It's also linked to in the Exalted Character Repository!

Drascin
2011-02-19, 04:19 PM
That's because the raksha artifacts are silly. Few Charms are worth taking on their own, because their artifacts give them so much more power and flexibility.

You say "silly", I say "interesting". I know that it goes against the average in Exalted, but I can deal with the fact that you can make some downright broken combinations (and boy, can you) if in exchange I get guidelines for building artifacts and artifact-creatures that actually work and have interesting effects, instead of eyeballing rough guesstimates off the (horribly unbalanced and unequal) artifacts in Core and groveling to the ST so he allows them :smallamused:.

Weimann
2011-02-19, 04:31 PM
Thanks :) I might pop into the repository as well.

meschlum
2011-02-19, 05:50 PM
Kind of reading what isn't there, to be honest. A pity, because the Charm would be really cool otherwise. But, fact is, says nothing about opposed rolls - it says "attacks". Does stealing from someone count as an attack?

I'm trying to give the writers some credit. The Charm text gives you an automatic success no matter what the penalties are. When stealing something, you need more successes than your target. Thus...

But yes, it's really pushing the Flaw of Invulnerability language to the limit.

Technically, you could use IoL with a specialty in noticing pickpockets. This would gran you automatic success at not being robbed, with the Flaw of Invulnerability that anyone describing how they want to rob you (or using Charms to do it) would succeed.


...but specialties in Dodge from IoL would give a single success - that is, a +1DV - because it's not an attack.

Nope. It's never rolled, so it would give you nothing. If it were rolled, you'd get one net success over the person attacking you - no matter how many onslaught penalties, action penalties, etc. you were under. Again, 1e inheritance.




Now that's true. Still, sad that such a defining Charm is so utterly unworthy of being purchased with actual XP and relegated to an artifact-only power.

Even if it were worth taking with xp, the xp version costs 10 motes, 1 willpower to activate. And those motes are committed.

A 1-dot inward facing Oneiromancy with 3 iterations of IoL costs 3 committed motes, and lasts for 1 season. Plus, you can have your retinue commit the motes.

If the IoL charm were more versatile (granting something like IoL in multiple specialties when taken as a charm) it might be worthwhile. But the Exalted writers appear to hate the Fair Folk, and have instead opted to make IoL weaker and weaker over the iterations. One upon a time, IoL could be used for things like fertility, drawing the attention of the Realm, making emperors... now it's Attribute + Ability + Specialty, fails if an Excellency is used, no residual benefits from being almost perfect even in the face of magic...

Must restrain rant.


Edited to add:

Ranting about how things were better before, or how things don't work, isn't productive. Therefore, I'll drop the topic, but first! Some uses for IoL:

- Perform a heart - brain - liver transplant from an ailing Dragonblood into a songbird. Using a sharpened rock and bits of straw for sutures. Complete success! This is based on the surgery rules, such as they are.

- Call on the Unconquered Sun for help while being tortured in the Underworld, fervently reciting the Yozi creed and offering a handful of offal as a gift. Automatic success on a prayer roll.

- Win a drinking contest where you're tossing back a gallon of Yozi venom for each glass of weak beer your opponents chug.


If you want to have a perfect defense, don't use IoL. Use Curse of Definition instead, in a 3-dot Oneiromancy. Specifically, set the Curse to Dex + Melee + Specialty (hitting me), and done! Of course, you're vulnerable to Martial Arts and missiles, but that's nothing more Oneiromancy can't help.

Jokasti
2011-02-19, 05:52 PM
HeyguysguesswhatHOMEBREW!

This time I want to make an SMA designed to let the user rapidly and repetedly phase into/out of Elsewhere (Or some other dimension, whatever has to be done to get non-fiddly fluff) for actions such as one-on-one forced dueling or teleportation flurry attacks. Think about it. Perfect Dodges that work because, instead of avoiding an attack, you are simply not there, and crap like that. Thoughts? (Though I'll probably only work on this, and that Infernal style I had in the works, once I have a better grasp of the game.)

Also, can someone please fill in for ST here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182914)? I've already been through several games I've either failed to get into or have simply failed to start, and I'm getting sick of it. I have, so far, never played a single game of Exalted. It's irritating me to no end.

Here's the link. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=43684)

SurlySeraph
2011-02-19, 08:46 PM
@^: I've been working on homebrewing an SMA about the concept of connection, and I suddenly feel that the need for mine has been obviated.

That style is good, is what I mean.

DragonSinged
2011-02-19, 08:56 PM
It occurs to me (and I'm sure most of you have had this thought before, but I feel like sharing anyways) that writing for Exalted must be fairly difficult at times, based on the intentional lack of balance in the system.

In other games, at least an attempt is made at pretending that different classes or whatever are, ah... "balanced". Obviously, anyone with any experience with D&D knows that, in the end, a Wizard is more powerful than a Fighter (without weird wealth shenanigans or something), but you know, it's not exactly pointed out in the books anywhere.

In Exalted, on the other hand, you are supposed to know that, if the two being compared have equal experience, a Solar is probably going to be more powerful than a Terrestrial, for example. Or, as I understand it, anything else, for that matter.


But everyone has their favorite, uh... thing. I mean, look at the tables that we're using in this very thread, there are spots for favorite type of character to play and whatnot. Obviously it's not just the players that have their favorite Exalt type, the authors have got to have their favorites as well...
And I imagine that it must be really hard to write for, say, the Fair Folk, and intentionally limit them so that they will be weaker than Solars (or whatever).
I mean, I know that if the Fair Folk were my favorite, uh.. creature? and I had to write for them, then I'd probably do a lot of reading to make sure that I knew everything about them that existed already... and after doing all that reading I'd probably be pretty attached to them, and it would probably be pretty difficult not to look at Solar charms and think, "Why can't the Fair Folk have nice things, too?"
Of course, this is all just an example, as I really don't know anything about the Fair Folk, and when people get to talking about oneiromancies and things like that, I can see the words, but I don't know what they mean. (I try to follow along anyways, but that's just my nature.)

Anyways, yeah. It's gotta be hard writing intentionally unbalanced material is my point, I guess.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-19, 09:03 PM
The SYSTEM may not be balanced, but each charmset should be balanced internally.

Emphasis on should.

Weimann
2011-02-19, 09:14 PM
Anyways, yeah. It's gotta be hard writing intentionally unbalanced material is my point, I guess.Well, it depends on how they are balanced. I quite agree that it's really hard to balance Exalted stuff, both with and without bias of the kind you mention.

However, in D&D you balance stuff to be approximately equally powerful. In Exalted you don't. That doesn't mean it's "intentionally unbalanced", it just means that it's balanced differently.

Jokasti
2011-02-19, 09:51 PM
Supposedly, the guy who wrote the Wizard and Sorcerer 3.5 classes thought Vancian casting was supposed to be better. That's why Wizards are better than Sorcerers at any given level- they were written that way.
Solars whole gig is that they are the best- the pinnacle- in equal situations, a Solar WILL be better because they're supposed to be, not because people like Solars better.
Fair Folk can have nice things- they get all that stuff that they are naturally great at, I think they're Virtue based? I haven't bothered reading GWM. Thing is, if an equal Solar and Fae go at it at something they both could do, the Solar will win- that's what Solars do.

Sanguine
2011-02-19, 09:56 PM
Supposedly, the guy who wrote the Wizard and Sorcerer 3.5 classes thought Vancian casting was supposed to be better. That's why Wizards are better than Sorcerers at any given level- they were written that way.
Solars whole gig is that they are the best- the pinnacle- in equal situations, a Solar WILL be better because they're supposed to be, not because people like Solars better.
Fair Folk can have nice things- they get all that stuff that they are naturally great at, I think they're Virtue based? I haven't bothered reading GWM. Thing is, if an equal Solar and Fae go at it at something they both could do, the Solar will win- that's what Solars do.

Actually their Charms are based on traits that only they have.(Unless they use their Charms to give them to a non-Raksha)

DragonSinged
2011-02-20, 01:31 AM
Well, it depends on how they are balanced. I quite agree that it's really hard to balance Exalted stuff, both with and without bias of the kind you mention.

However, in D&D you balance stuff to be approximately equally powerful. In Exalted you don't. That doesn't mean it's "intentionally unbalanced", it just means that it's balanced differently.

Erm, "balanced differently" sounds like a different way of saying "unbalanced" to me. If you have a set of scales, and both scales are in the middle, then they are balanced. If one side is heavier than the other, they are unbalanced. If you did that intentionally, then, yes, they are, uh.. "balanced differently." They are also "unbalanced" in that they are not balanced.

Unbalanced does not equal bad. I'm not saying that there's a problem with the balance in Exalted. I'm not saying there isn't, either. Just that intentionally writing things that can be PCs to intentionally be weaker than other things that can also be PCs must be tough.



Solars whole gig is that they are the best- the pinnacle- in equal situations, a Solar WILL be better because they're supposed to be, not because people like Solars better.
Fair Folk can have nice things- they get all that stuff that they are naturally great at, I think they're Virtue based? I haven't bothered reading GWM. Thing is, if an equal Solar and Fae go at it at something they both could do, the Solar will win- that's what Solars do.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Solars were stronger because someone liked them better. I know that Solars are stronger because Solars are supposed to be stronger. That's actually fairly central to what I was bringing up.
What I meant to imply is that it must be tempting at times to write things for people other than Solars, things that will make those, I don't know, Fair Folk or Sidereals or whatever at least equally as strong as Solars. And it must be tough reining in those temptations, and being like, "No, if I release this charm for this dude who isn't a Solar, then he might have a pretty good chance of kicking a Solar's ass." or.. whatever.

Maybe I'm losing my point, or not getting across what I mean. I just thought it was an interesting thought, I guess - That the writers for Exalted face somewhat unique challenges.

Xefas
2011-02-20, 01:43 AM
Some people like the scrappy underdog.

Kyeudo
2011-02-20, 02:27 AM
Are Raksha human? Do you not think Raksha can be interesting characters?

Raksha can vary from mostly uninteresting to very interesting, depending on how they aproach things. To use some Star Trek references, they can be like Lore, pretty much out to smash something on a whim, or they can be like Data, looking to be something more than what they are made out of. One is a one-shot villian, the other a character to watch for years.

Drascin
2011-02-20, 04:47 AM
Some people like the scrappy underdog.

Well, Scrappy in trope-talk are characters that no-one likes, so I assume you meant it as in rag-tag and such?


Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Solars were stronger because someone liked them better. I know that Solars are stronger because Solars are supposed to be stronger. That's actually fairly central to what I was bringing up.
What I meant to imply is that it must be tempting at times to write things for people other than Solars, things that will make those, I don't know, Fair Folk or Sidereals or whatever at least equally as strong as Solars. And it must be tough reining in those temptations, and being like, "No, if I release this charm for this dude who isn't a Solar, then he might have a pretty good chance of kicking a Solar's ass." or.. whatever.

Maybe I'm losing my point, or not getting across what I mean. I just thought it was an interesting thought, I guess - That the writers for Exalted face somewhat unique challenges.

Indeed. I also figure that the fact the Core Solar Charmset sucks must be a serious problem with that - we can't make Charms for any splat that are so much as equal, never mind better, as the Solar ones in the Core book inside their function. But the Solar Charms in the core vary from good to "this is so useless you'd have to be drunk to purchase it" - and writers are forced to balance on the second ones, too, making Charms even worse because otherwise the splat would be equal to Solars at something. This is really very limiting.

Needless to say, this leads to much feeling of uselessness among the other splats in these areas :smallamused:.

Kris Strife
2011-02-20, 04:59 AM
Well, Scrappy in trope-talk are characters that no-one likes, so I assume you meant it as in rag-tag and such?

scrap·py/ˈskrapē/Adjective
1. Consisting of disorganized, untidy, or incomplete parts.
2. Determined, argumentative, or pugnacious.

In this case, the second definition.

Also: I would be interested in playing KH Exalted. :smallbiggrin:

Aether
2011-02-20, 05:09 AM
scrap·py/ˈskrapē/Adjective
1. Consisting of disorganized, untidy, or incomplete parts.
2. Determined, argumentative, or pugnacious.

In this case, the second definition.

He meant that, when he read "scrappy underdog", his mind went to TVTropes. In TVTropes, underdog has a similar meaning to what it usually means.

A TVTropes scrappy, however, is an "unlikeable character, named after Scrappy Doo."

Thus, in "trope-talk" a "scrappy" "underdog" would be an underpowered character who was victorious and extremely unlikeable. Hence why he asked for clarification. :smallsmile:

Kris Strife
2011-02-20, 05:14 AM
He meant that, when he read "scrappy underdog", his mind went to TVTropes. In TVTropes, underdog has a similar meaning to what it usually means.

A TVTropes scrappy, however, is an "unlikeable character, named after Scrappy Doo."

Thus, in "trope-talk" a "scrappy" "underdog" would be an underpowered character who was victorious and extremely unlikeable. Hence why he asked for clarification. :smallsmile:

I think this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife) link will cover that. :smallwink:

Weimann
2011-02-20, 05:37 AM
Erm, "balanced differently" sounds like a different way of saying "unbalanced" to me. If you have a set of scales, and both scales are in the middle, then they are balanced. If one side is heavier than the other, they are unbalanced. If you did that intentionally, then, yes, they are, uh.. "balanced differently." They are also "unbalanced" in that they are not balanced

Unbalanced does not equal bad. I'm not saying that there's a problem with the balance in Exalted. I'm not saying there isn't, either. Just that intentionally writing things that can be PCs to intentionally be weaker than other things that can also be PCs must be tough.We obviously have different ideas on what "balance" means. However, I can agree with that I think it's very hard to properly balance Exalted :smallwink:

Lord Raziere
2011-02-20, 10:40 AM
Some people like the scrappy underdog.

yea. that is why my reckless martial artist character couldn't be a solar. the world wouldn't torment him enough if he was one.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-20, 01:24 PM
In other games, at least an attempt is made at pretending that different classes or whatever are, ah... "balanced". Obviously, anyone with any experience with D&D knows that, in the end, a Wizard is more powerful than a Fighter (without weird wealth shenanigans or something), but you know, it's not exactly pointed out in the books anywhere.

In Exalted, on the other hand, you are supposed to know that, if the two being compared have equal experience, a Solar is probably going to be more powerful than a Terrestrial, for example. Or, as I understand it, anything else, for that matter.

Well, the fluff says "Terrestrials are the least powerful but most numerous" an awful lot. There are certainly imbalances that you wouldn't expect from reading the fluff (e.g. before the errata, Twilights were significantly better fighters than Dawns; there are lots of fights in the fluff where one party just incapacitates the other and lets him go, whereas crunch-wise it's kinda hard not to kill people; the Usurpation seems unworkable given how easy it is to get Surprise Anticipation Method), but the biggest imbalances seem fairly well indicated to me.

Xefas
2011-02-20, 05:53 PM
:smallsigh: *sigh*. Genderbender week is over. My Solar has gone back to being male.

...I miss the curvy butt.

Jokasti
2011-02-20, 06:10 PM
:smallsigh: *sigh*. Genderbender week is over. My Solar has gone back to being male.

...I miss the curvy butt.

Males can have curvy butts- it's the hips that those females are keeping from us. :smallcool:
Also anyone that wants to tear apart my Devil-Tiger charms, links in the sig and I just updated... slightly.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-21, 05:44 PM
:smallsigh: *sigh*. Genderbender week is over. My Solar has gone back to being male.

...I miss the curvy butt.
(zaps with reverse gender)
;P
SO!
New Exalted game, if someone can ST it. Exalted, but with ponies.

You cannot resist the ponies. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188258)

Xefas
2011-02-21, 06:21 PM
I can't help but think about Black Mirror Shintai when I watch this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nfPDR3gGQc)

EDIT: Fighting EB in general, really.

Sanguine
2011-02-21, 06:25 PM
I can't help but think about Black Mirror Shintai when I watch this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nfPDR3gGQc)

EDIT: Fighting EB in general, really.

Must fight Urge to make Primordial Behemoth...

Jokasti
2011-02-22, 06:44 PM
SO!
New Exalted game, if someone can ST it. Exalted, but with ponies.

You cannot resist the ponies. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188258)

:smallsigh:
I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

Kris Strife
2011-02-22, 08:23 PM
:smallsigh:
I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

I don't watch the show either, but what does sanity have to do with that? :smalltongue:

Tavar
2011-02-22, 09:39 PM
So, question time. Are Harmonious Academic Mythology and/or Legendary Scholar Curriculum able to teach people occult specialties/procedures/degrees?

Xefas
2011-02-22, 09:45 PM
So, question time. Are Harmonious Academic Mythology and/or Legendary Scholar Curriculum able to teach people occult specialties/procedures/degrees?

Legendary Scholar Curriculum specifically states that it can train specialties for any Abilities that the Solar could train normally.

Neither say anything about thaumaturgy.

Indon
2011-02-22, 11:40 PM
So, I have an artifact idea and I'd like thoughts.

Regarding the Precepts and the Superiority of the Virtues

This is an ancient text, written in the first age by a Twilight who for some inscrutable reason never released it to the public, which contains an exhaustive and perfect argument for why any moral creature should adopt the irrational virtues over the rational Precepts, for ultimately rational reasons.

These arguments are so perfect that, upon reading the text, a free-willed construct may choose to internalize the arguments, transforming their Precepts into the corresponding Virtues.


I plan on having one of the effects be that, per a clever bit of foresight on Autochthon's part, the construct is assigned a soul that will join the cycle of reincarnation as normal when the construct is destroyed. I'm interested in other effects the text could potentially have, as well as anything someone might've read in some obscure sourcebook that would have an impact on it.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how to adjudicate the effects the text might have on an Alchemical, in regards to tampering with their Clarity. It might be amusing for it to be A Bad Idea for an Alchemical.

Edit:

So, question time. Are Harmonious Academic Mythology and/or Legendary Scholar Curriculum able to teach people occult specialties/procedures/degrees?

Regarding this, Dreams of the First Age details a charm which expands Harmonious Academic Mythology and gives the user the ability to teach sorcerous spells, thaumaturgical degrees, and even permanent Essence.

Lord Raziere
2011-02-23, 12:44 AM
:smallsigh:
I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

I feel a kinship with you- I don't watch Oprah, cause Oprah's an evil mastermind trying to take over the world using mass tv-based hypnosis. only those who do not watch her are safe.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-23, 10:58 AM
Quick question - let's say I want to challenge the PCs with the Shoat of the Mire. Being a Dusk Caste, it's all-too-likely I'll stat her out as a combat monster.

Considering that she's had a couple of years directly under the tutelage of the Dowager, would it be unreasonable to assume that she'd also been taught Necromancy? Or would it not be worth bothering with?

I would also assume that I'm safe in making the assumption that she should have a fairly nice panoply to represent the attention of her Deathlord mentor.

Rockphed
2011-02-23, 11:04 AM
:smallsigh:
I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

Fear not, for I too have resisted the siren song of small horses and flashing lights and singing. Not completely mind, but I refuse to watch anymore until I, like Lupin, "am not homeless...anymore." Since I intend to never be homeless, it will be hard to be "not homeless...anymore."

Tavar
2011-02-24, 04:14 PM
Huh. The Flame tag in the Core book mentions that the Range listed is how far the flame jet reaches, and they mention this again in the individual flame weapon writeups. Does that only apply for fine, exceptional, and perfect bonuses? Or does it also apply to charms? Or is there some other way to make other ranged weapons fire farther than their listed range?

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-24, 04:27 PM
For non-flame weapons, the listed range is the longest range you can shoot without penalty. You get a penalty for shooting targets at longer ranges.

Tavar
2011-02-24, 04:29 PM
Where might those rules be located. They don't seem to be with the weapon rules, or the combat rules.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-24, 04:33 PM
Under Step Five of attack resolution steps.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-24, 04:53 PM
@TheCountAlucard: Given that she's the Dowager's only deathknight most of the time, lavished attention (including necromancy) certainly makes sense. Probably a good idea to limit the necromancy to having a couple spine chains following her rather than direct combat, though.

So rpg.net has had a couple interesting threads recently, Does Exalted Need a 3rd Edition? (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=562197) and If there were a 3rd edition, what would you like to see kept/discarded? (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=562713)

There's a lot of fairly divergent sentiment in them, and mostly consensus that a 3rd edition won't happen. However, I'd love to hear GITP's thoughts on what they'd want a hypothetical 3E to look like.

For my part, I have some thoughts; mostly I'd like it to be more like NWoD, except with lethality turned down a lot.
*NWoD Attributes
*Same Abilities as Exalted currently has (though I'd appreciate it if they'd call them Skills instead of Abilities)
*Martial arts should work like fighting styles in NWoD, where you can only use weapons with their normal ability (Throwing for a throwing martial art, Melee for a daiklave martial art, etc), though Martial Arts prereqs on top of Throwing, Melee, etc. prereqs makes sense.
*No Flurries. Extra actions should mostly be a function of higher-level combat charms, or Athletics charms that let you move instantaneously, or suchlike.
*Health levels. Everyone needs more of them, and they need to scale automatically as you get more powerful. At minimum, give Exalts [Stamina+Essence] health levels over what mortals get.
*I have no position on whether it would be better to stay with ticks or switch to turn-based
*Have a straightforward social combat system that works mostly like the physical combat system; but it should definitely be more difficult to brainwash people than to beat them up. Integrating their timescales would be good, so a character with strong social-fu can persuade someone to spare him, taunt to create an opening, and even convince someone to switch sides in-combat if he's really good at it (like, starting Solar talking to an Extra, or Essence 5 Solar talking to E2 Dragon-Blood).
*Also a mental combat system, because arguing about obscure lore, playing board games, navigating or tying up a bureaucracy, economic warfare, etc. shouldn't just be matters of DM fiat.
*Also good support for non-violent physical competition, like racing.
*Simplify attack resolution. Granted, the 10-step system is really like 7 steps in practice, but seriously. Have DVs reduce the attack dice pool instead of being rolled against. Get rid of rerolls as a commonly encountered thing. The damage system will require significant rejiggering so that it's not just "Bigger weapons are pretty much always better" like in NWoD, but I'm confident that it's doable.
*Soak should stay in some form, being so tough that swords bounce off of you is important. Not sure whether ping should stay or be dropped.
*Piercing. Piercing probably should not be a thing, and it definitely should not be a thing that high-damage weapons can easily have.
*Either flatten or invert the death spiral. This is an epic fantasy setting with anime influences. Fights should get awesomer as they go on. Possibly eliminate wound penalties for Exalts (so all their health levels are -0), probably have a system where some charms are cheaper or even only available after losing a certain amount of health levels.
*Death should be less likely than incapacitation. Consider charms that cap the number of health levels someone can lose in a single attack, and possibly make it so that you always have to damage someone again to finish them off after incapacitating them.
*Combos. Combos should be about glorious attacks, not about quickly buffing or being impossible to damage. I'm not sure whether they should stay at all, but if they do they need to be about offense. I'd rather just dump the one-charm-per-action thing and maybe add a 1wp surcharge for using multiple charms on a single attack, with the surcharge removed for a particular combination if you spend xp for it.
*Perfects. After playtesting and making extremely certain that lethality was down to reasonable levels, make perfect defenses more expensive (either with mote costs or, preferably, making them all cost 1wp). Perfect attacks should cost about as much as PDs, so you have a way to get at people with enormous DVs. Perfects must not be so cheap that it's ever sensible to use one on every attack. It might be reasonable if almost every Celestial-level fight has a phase where every attack is a PA blocked with a PD until both parties run out of juice and the actual fight begins, but I'd rather not see that.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-24, 04:59 PM
Of course 3rd Edition won't happen for some time - possibly a long time. White Wolf doesn't have enough resources to afford a 3rd Edition (for example, none of the freelancers that worked on Broken-Winged Crane were paid for their work on the book, if I recall correctly).

Though the only important thing is this: have health levels actually be your health bar and mote pools actually be your mana bar. If you switch those two where health levels are your mana and mote pools are your health, that turns out to be stupid.

((Also, you read threads on RPG.net? You poor, poor soul. I hope you recover your sanity quickly.))

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-24, 05:30 PM
Given that she's the Dowager's only deathknight most of the time, lavished attention (including necromancy) certainly makes sense. Probably a good idea to limit the necromancy to having a couple spine chains following her rather than direct combat, though.Assuming I was quite generous and had her start at 50 XP, what sort of Charms do you think I should go with? As a Dusk Caste, probably a lot of them will be combat-oriented, though I did pick a couple of Survival, Integrity, and Performance Charms.

Jokasti
2011-02-24, 06:04 PM
3rd Edition would be nice, but it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Mayhaps a community driven project, paying attention to copyright laws?

IcarusWings
2011-02-24, 06:18 PM
One idea I saw in those threads though, and I thought was a good idea on inverting the Death Spiral, was that using powerful charms increases your Limit, and that the much more powerful charms require a certain amount of Limit to be used. It fits thematically as well. Obviously the Limit Break mechanic would have to be re-worked slightly, but I thought it was a good idea.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-24, 08:19 PM
((Also, you read threads on RPG.net? You poor, poor soul. I hope you recover your sanity quickly.))

I haven't noticed anything awful on RPG.net. Is there something I should be on the lookout for?
I mean, they do have the occasional arguments over whether Exalted should be about punching Primordials or Greek tragedy, in which no one ever suggests that it can include a wide range of tones and power levels; the occasional "Make a character with as many sexually suggestive things as possible" contest; the general Chungian paranoia-combat thing, and a strong emphasis on complaining about what's wrong rather than talking about how to make it right; and... OK, I see what you mean.


Assuming I was quite generous and had her start at 50 XP, what sort of Charms do you think I should go with? As a Dusk Caste, probably a lot of them will be combat-oriented, though I did pick a couple of Survival, Integrity, and Performance Charms.

I've made a grand total of two Abyssals, but I'll try... (spoilered in case your group reads this thread).
How do you want her to fight? Hungry Ghost Style up to the form and making lots of unexpected attacks is an option, perhaps adding Charm-Smothering Technique and Scuttling Apparition Defense; appearing and disappearing constantly, slipping away from attacks, suddenly springing forward to stab party members in the back, etc.
Focusing on Melee and doing a lot of debuffing/ crippling also works. Artful Maiming Onslaught, Soul-Cleaving Wound, Thieving Raiton Claws, Foe-Blinding Jab, maybe Time-Scything Technique and other Solar melee mirrors to attack multiple party members in general Solar-ish style.

Unseen Wisp Method is always handy.

Undying Stagnation Defense, because Shaping is bad.
Eternal Enmity Approach towards Solars is tempting, but there's a better way. That way is Blood Before Surrender. When her father tries to persuade her to come home with him, blood gushes out of her ears. Or she starts to nod yes then seizes up, vomits blood at him, and yells "NO!" Or just crumples as if in severe pain at his arguments.

Morbid Fascination Style + . Combo it with Withering Phantasmagoria for something that's not just sickening but physically agonizing to watch, but [I]you can't stop watching.
Depending on your group and the character's age, Irresistible Succubus Style might be a good idea. You want "Agh, creepy" or "She's really hot, but creepy, but really hot, but I don't want her father to kill me, but she's really hot..." to have her sow strife within the group. You don't want "Agh, the DM is creepy."

If she's young, Maelstrom-Weathering Indifference and skipping cheerfully through a blizzard singing to herself is nicely creepy. If older, you can still use that and some stealth for a agh where is that coming from leadup to her first appearance, but you lose the "Why is the lost little girl singing? And barefoot? And... something's wrong here." creepiness.
Dark Paths Found and Ghost Leaves No Trail are useful if you want her to get away and be a recurring villain, but by no means necessary; she can always use Necromancy to flee to the Underworld, or escape by fiat.



One idea I saw in those threads though, and I thought was a good idea on inverting the Death Spiral, was that using powerful charms increases your Limit, and that the much more powerful charms require a certain amount of Limit to be used. It fits thematically as well. Obviously the Limit Break mechanic would have to be re-worked slightly, but I thought it was a good idea.

Hm, I can see that. Especially charms that require a certain amount of Limit to use, or at least are boosted by having high Limit. It would be a bit of an effort to make one that's thematically appropriate for every limit break, so maybe a general Charm that adds your Limit + main Virtue in successes to any roll that's linked to the impulses you get from your virtue flaw?
The issue is that encouraging your players to keep their characters perpetually on the brink of madness for more power is not necessarily a good idea. I mean, it would work for some games, such as "You're First Age Solars. Go run amok," but session after session of overwhelming power followed by psychotic breaks would get stupid. And probably boring, after a while.

Xefas
2011-02-24, 09:53 PM
However, I'd love to hear GITP's thoughts on what they'd want a hypothetical 3E to look like.

I'd want 3rd edition to be pretty much indistinguishable in every single way from 1st or 2nd edition. As a quick personal overview:

Things that I dislike the implementation of:
Attributes
Abilities
Motivations
Intimacies
Health Levels
Motes
Willpower
Virtues
Backgrounds
Charms
Limit (and its similar traits)
Essence
Anima Powers
Knacks
Astrology
Experience

Things I like the implementation of:
Proper Nouns

Conclusion: Keep the names. Scrap everything else.

Jokasti
2011-02-24, 09:59 PM
Yeah, Exalted doesn't need Crunch. Who thought of putting that in? Worst idea since Mardukth wasn't sure who he was.

Xefas
2011-02-24, 10:03 PM
Yeah, Exalted doesn't need Crunch. Who thought of putting that in? Worst idea since Mardukth wasn't sure who he was.

I'm not saying that it doesn't need crunch. I'm saying that personally, in my opinion, all the crunch ranges from slightly bad to terrible, and to make it my perfect shining paragon of Exalted, all of it would need to be redone.

EDIT: "IMHO", "YMMV" and all those other acronyms I need to include to not be yelled at.

Reynard
2011-02-24, 10:27 PM
I agree. The system is an erratic, bumbling mess.

And the community seems to know this, with the shear amount of fixes, tweaks, houserules and such that abound across the intertubes. So maybe a team of homebrewers could have a good crack at creating a system that we can graft the fluff on to.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-24, 10:33 PM
Man, the system itself knows this. Perfect attacks are mostly a bandaid for people getting enormous defense pools in 1E, perfect defenses are partly a bandaid for everything being superdeadly, ping is a bandaid for people piling up huge amounts of soak, hardness is a bandaid for ping meaning a barrage of arrows from weak mortals could easily kill a heavily armored Exalt...


3rd Edition would be nice, but it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Mayhaps a community driven project, paying attention to copyright laws?

Well, WW doesn't seem to mind Qwixalted (http://aakin.net/qwixalted/doku.php?id=daiklave_s_stuff) and similar revisions out there, but since NWOD and Exalted aren't OGL or anything similar I don't know exactly what is allowable.

Also, I have ideas for MOAR SIDREAL KARATE, even though I haven't gotten the first style I started working on to the point that I consider it good enough to post yet.

I wanna do a style based on the concept of non-existence, mostly Abyssal-y but using whatever fluff on Nirguna the non-existence shinma I can find. The Green Lady might know a bit of it but have it locked away in her memory; some Deathlord will be attempting to kidnap its foremost master but can't find him because guess why; and there will be pretentious fluff about how it contains the potential for creation or destruction of anything.

And I wanna do Vermillion Clouds of Sunset Style, the martial art that the sun knows. I know that form weapons need to include fighting chains and probably flame pieces. And it needs a Permanent charm that lets you automatically punch anyone looking at you, because that's why your eyes hurt when you look at the sun.
Xefas has suggested "Foes With Wax Wings Methodology", "'I Am Actually Powered By Nuclear Fusion, You See' Prana", and "Don't Stare Directly Into Me! Method"; those might not be the final names, but they are excellent concepts.
Alucard suggested "Vicious Melanoma Atemi", "Radiant Fusion Kata," "Horizon-Crossing Meditation", and "Rising in the East Method", which are also good ideas.
Maybe it should be about virtue? Or maybe loyalty?

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-25, 01:32 AM
How do you want her to fight? Hungry Ghost Style up to the form and making lots of unexpected attacks is an option, perhaps adding Charm-Smothering Technique and Scuttling Apparition Defense; appearing and disappearing constantly, slipping away from attacks, suddenly springing forward to stab party members in the back, etc.
Focusing on Melee and doing a lot of debuffing/ crippling also works. Artful Maiming Onslaught, Soul-Cleaving Wound, Thieving Raiton Claws, Foe-Blinding Jab, maybe Time-Scything Technique and other Solar melee mirrors to attack multiple party members in general Solar-ish style.Truth be told, I'm not sure if I'll go Melee or Martial Arts yet; I know I want her to have some ranged capabilities, and some hand-to-hand capabilities, enough of each to be scary without necessarily wiping the party.
Unseen Wisp Method is always handy.That it is. Not sure if I want to invest that much into Stealth, however...
Eternal Enmity Approach towards Solars is tempting, but there's a better way. That way is Blood Before Surrender. When her father tries to persuade her to come home with him, blood gushes out of her ears. Or she starts to nod yes then seizes up, vomits blood at him, and yells "NO!" Or just crumples as if in severe pain at his arguments.I actually went with Lesser Horrors Scorned already, but that does sound fun...
Morbid Fascination Style + . Combo it with Withering Phantasmagoria for something that's not just sickening but physically agonizing to watch, but [I]you can't stop watching.Trouble there being that they can spend one Willpower to ignore that compulsion, roll Join Battle, and have it no longer be a problem. But I did still go with the idea of her using Performance.
Depending on your group and the character's age...Physically, ten years old. Actual age, twelvish.
You don't want "Agh, the DM is creepy."When you're right, you're right. :smallamused:
If she's young, Maelstrom-Weathering Indifference and skipping cheerfully through a blizzard singing to herself is nicely creepy.Humorously enough, I did in fact go with that Charm already...
Dark Paths Found and Ghost Leaves No Trail are useful if you want her to get away and be a recurring villain, but by no means necessary; she can always use Necromancy to flee to the Underworld, or escape by fiat.Indeed, an escape plan will probably be handy, just in case...

Reynard
2011-02-25, 01:39 AM
Truth be told, I'm not sure if I'll go Melee or Martial Arts yet; I know I want her to have some ranged capabilities, and some hand-to-hand capabilities, enough of each to be scary without necessarily wiping the party.

Try this? (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Supreme_Martial_Instinct) Sure, it's temporary, but it's an option.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-25, 01:45 AM
Try this?Truth be told, I'd like to avoid Dawn Solution for now; having a tough enough time trying to integrate the heaps of errata we've got as it is...

Mikal
2011-02-25, 09:10 AM
Truth be told, I'd like to avoid Dawn Solution for now; having a tough enough time trying to integrate the heaps of errata we've got as it is...

You know all the errata is compiled into an easy to use PDF with bookmarks and links, right?

Jokasti
2011-02-25, 09:20 AM
Thank Sol for Plague of Hats.

Teln
2011-02-25, 10:05 AM
You know all the errata is compiled into an easy to use PDF with bookmarks and links, right?

And that PDF has how many pages? 3rd Edition can go **** itself, give me 2nd Revised!

Weimann
2011-02-25, 10:36 AM
For my part, I have some thoughts; mostly I'd like it to be more like NWoD, except with lethality turned down a lot.

*NWoD Attributes
*Same Abilities as Exalted currently has (though I'd appreciate it if they'd call them Skills instead of Abilities)
*Martial arts should work like fighting styles in NWoD, where you can only use weapons with their normal ability (Throwing for a throwing martial art, Melee for a daiklave martial art, etc), though Martial Arts prereqs on top of Throwing, Melee, etc. prereqs makes sense.
*No Flurries. Extra actions should mostly be a function of higher-level combat charms, or Athletics charms that let you move instantaneously, or suchlike.
*I have no position on whether it would be better to stay with ticks or switch to turn-based
*Simplify attack resolution. Granted, the 10-step system is really like 7 steps in practice, but seriously. Have DVs reduce the attack dice pool instead of being rolled against. Get rid of rerolls as a commonly encountered thing. The damage system will require significant rejiggering so that it's not just "Bigger weapons are pretty much always better" like in NWoD, but I'm confident that it's doable.
*Soak should stay in some form, being so tough that swords bounce off of you is important. Not sure whether ping should stay or be dropped.
*Piercing. Piercing probably should not be a thing, and it definitely should not be a thing that high-damage weapons can easily have.
*Death should be less likely than incapacitation. Consider charms that cap the number of health levels someone can lose in a single attack, and possibly make it so that you always have to damage someone again to finish them off after incapacitating them.I agree to these points as is.


*Health levels. Everyone needs more of them, and they need to scale automatically as you get more powerful. At minimum, give Exalts [Stamina+Essence] health levels over what mortals get.More health levels, yes, but also lower damage. As I see it, one-shotting Exalts should be possible, but it shold require more than a big hammer and an Excellency. It's a balance there.


*Either flatten or invert the death spiral. This is an epic fantasy setting with anime influences. Fights should get awesomer as they go on. Possibly eliminate wound penalties for Exalts (so all their health levels are -0), probably have a system where some charms are cheaper or even only available after losing a certain amount of health levels.Indeed. While I can see the point of such a system in other games, Exalted doesn't benefit from wound penalties. Also, paranoia combat never encounters them at all. Why have redundant mechanics?


*Combos. Combos should be about glorious attacks, not about quickly buffing or being impossible to damage. I'm not sure whether they should stay at all, but if they do they need to be about offense. I'd rather just dump the one-charm-per-action thing and maybe add a 1wp surcharge for using multiple charms on a single attack, with the surcharge removed for a particular combination if you spend xp for it.I personally think the Overdrive approach is a wonderful solution to this problem. Overdrive should be made part of baseline Exaltation, not work as charms, becuse it's in every Exalt's nature to do ridiculous stuff like that. It could also be codified to work with social combat or similar. In any case, the design that fighting longer gives you more power is entirely in keeping with Exalted aestetics.

Also, there needs to be more stages that "one charm activation" and "no charm activation", much like D&D has free, swift, standard and full-round actions. The current system has the same price on picking your sword up fast as being immortal for one attack: one charm activation. There need to be more depth to the action economy.


*Perfects. After playtesting and making extremely certain that lethality was down to reasonable levels, make perfect defenses more expensive (either with mote costs or, preferably, making them all cost 1wp). Perfect attacks should cost about as much as PDs, so you have a way to get at people with enormous DVs. Perfects must not be so cheap that it's ever sensible to use one on every attack. It might be reasonable if almost every Celestial-level fight has a phase where every attack is a PA blocked with a PD until both parties run out of juice and the actual fight begins, but I'd rather not see that.Personally, I think perfects should be the last-line solution. Only in cases where it's entirely certain that getting hit will equal game over should perfects be a viable option. I think that forcing an Exalt to use a perfect should be a victory in itself, and every time the Exalt perfects he should swear to himself because he was pushed to that limit. Spamming perfects are for when Solars stand against Primordials and similar, not against a Dragon-Blooded with a Grand Killstick and an Excellency.


*Have a straightforward social combat system that works mostly like the physical combat system; but it should definitely be more difficult to brainwash people than to beat them up. Integrating their timescales would be good, so a character with strong social-fu can persuade someone to spare him, taunt to create an opening, and even convince someone to switch sides in-combat if he's really good at it (like, starting Solar talking to an Extra, or Essence 5 Solar talking to E2 Dragon-Blood).Yes, indeed. The current social system is perfect-or-die by design, the only difference being that the perfect is supplied by the system, it's the willpower cost to ignore mental influence. This needs to be tuned down in "lethality" and we need to put "health levels" on Intimacies and such (it's possible we already have that; I read somewhere that they Intimacied can have a level of strength equal to your Conviction, but that is not used or references anywhere else that I know of, and the book doesn't even tell you what level they start at from char gen).


*Also a mental combat system, because arguing about obscure lore, playing board games, navigating or tying up a bureaucracy, economic warfare, etc. shouldn't just be matters of DM fiat.What do you mean here?


*Also good support for non-violent physical competition, like racing.That's something I'm uncertain about, because having particular rules for small sub-systems makes the game messy. to the greatest possible extent, the rules should seek to be as encompassing and simple as possible.

Kyeudo
2011-02-25, 12:26 PM
*Have a straightforward social combat system that works mostly like the physical combat system; but it should definitely be more difficult to brainwash people than to beat them up. Integrating their timescales would be good, so a character with strong social-fu can persuade someone to spare him, taunt to create an opening, and even convince someone to switch sides in-combat if he's really good at it (like, starting Solar talking to an Extra, or Essence 5 Solar talking to E2 Dragon-Blood).

I'd like to point out that there actually is a good reason why social combat and regular combat aren't allowed to coexist under the current rules (Whether this is the actual motivation behind the seperation is debatable).

As is, there are alot of minimum requirements to be a competent combatant in Exalted. You pretty much must have a maxed out attack Ability, maxed Dexterity, have a good weapon (perfect mundane weapon or an artifact weapon), have an Excellency for your preferred method of combat, Infinite (Ability) Mastery for said method of combat, a Perfect Defense, a suprise negator Charm, an anti-shaping Charm, and a Combo of at least that Excellency, the suprise negator, and the Perfect Defense. You also practically need Willpower 10 to sustain this method of combat. That's already alot of stuff practically assumed by the system just so you don't die and can penetrate your opponent's defense once he finally runs out of motes.

If you allowed a fighter-type to be talked out of combat by more than pure roleplaying, then you have to add maxed Integrity and a perfect social defense like Elusive Dream Defense or Sagacious Reading of Intent to this already overloaded combat package, else a good social combatant will have a defense that you cannot penetrate and you become useless as a warrior.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-25, 12:48 PM
What do you mean here?

Basically a system for having battles of wits when you either don't want to just RP it or want the result to be rooted in the mechanics. E.g. making opposed War rolls for playing chess Gateway, perhaps adding some social combat with some Manipulation rolls to set traps or Presence rolls to psych him out. Or trying to get successes on a series of Lore checks equal to someone's Resolve to convince him you know more than him, with his successes subtracting from yours or with him trying to get successes equal to your Resolve first. Or making Bureaucracy rolls with a Wealth-related bonus to try to outcompete a rival's company and force them into bankruptcy. Or Bureaucracy rolls to jam up a Realm military base so that they're too busy arguing over payrolls to send anyone out to find the Anathema. Stuff like that.
I'm not sure it needs a full system like physical and social combat do, but I'd really


That's something I'm uncertain about, because having particular rules for small sub-systems makes the game messy. to the greatest possible extent, the rules should seek to be as encompassing and simple as possible.

I'm thinking something similar to the Chase rules in NWoD, where both parties roll [Athletics, Ride, Sail, whatever] and whoever gets to a certain threshold wins.
E.g. in a foot race you might have to get your opponent's Speed in successes before he gets your Speed in successes. Or both of you try to get to a certain number of successes based on the length of the race, and your Speed gives you a bonus.
Or for something like a basketball game, both of you try to get to a certain number of successes first, those successes representing points; in a team game, each team tries to get to a certain total, and some team members can use their actions to remove successes from an opponent (like blocking shots, etc) instead of trying to score more themselves.
Environmental obstacles can happen, Charms may be used, other skills may become necessary [e.g., a plesiosaur pops up in the middle of a boat race, and you have to fight it off while trying to maintain your lead], etc.
Nothing very complex or specific, just a system that lets you resolve contests non-arbitrarily and throw complications into them if you want.

Kyeudo
2011-02-25, 02:17 PM
One of the few merits of Exalted's mechanics is that you can usually improvise exactly what you want with only a little thought. Look at those race rules you seem to want. You just laid out an extended contested (Dexterity+<relevant ability>) roll with a varied difficulty for each person. That is already contained in the rules! No complicated subsystem needed, just a basic outline and some stunts. As long as you set the required threshold at a decent level (I hate the way the rules default to only 3 successes in a game system where your dice pools are in the 20-30 range), your players won't care that they aren't using the Athletics Combat Subsystem 2.5.

Gateway is actually mentioned in at least one place as an extended opposed (Intelligence + War) roll. IIRC there are even a few modifiers, but the game is intentionally left vague so you can stunt your plays to fit the situation. If you want to run a trivia challenge or a test of riddles, then an opposed extented (Int + Lore) roll sounds like the way to go.

As for your mental combat idea, I'll be blunt and tell you that I think it sucks. When it comes to knowing things, you either know them or you don't. Opposed Intelligence+Lore rolls won't make you smarter or him dumber, nor will they make him more likely to accept your superior intellect. Social rolls are how you convince people of things.

However, I will agree that Exalted does need true Mass Social Combat rules. I'm not talking about the stupid "convince everyone who is present at a scene of something" Mass Social Combat that we currently have. I'm talking about the sociopolitical and economic interactions between companies, political factions, and even entire cities that is supposed to be represented by the Mandate of Heaven rules but that fail miserably at their job.

Tavar
2011-02-25, 03:48 PM
I know at least one merit gives you, among other things, the ability to make a Wits+War roll to gain some sort of advantage in Gateway.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-25, 05:06 PM
I'd like to point out that there actually is a good reason why social combat and regular combat aren't allowed to coexist under the current rules (Whether this is the actual motivation behind the seperation is debatable).

Sorry I didn't address this in my last post. It's definitely an issue, and I see three main solutions to it.
1) Make it much harder to talk people into submission in combat than out of combat. Impose a heavy situational penalty for trying to do so and leave it at that, or put a limit on how much you can affect someone's behavior during combat (exactly what form that would take depends a lot on the final social combat system). The problem is balancing it so social actions in combat are neither useless nor unstoppable.
2) Make combat-readiness and social-readiness have decent overlap. Going with the NWoD ruleset, Resolve and Composure give you Willpower and help you resist things. So both a fighter and a social-fu guy will have them at good levels. However, "You must have everything on this list to survive, and you do not have these things by default" results in boring cookie-cutter characters. I don't want everyone to need 5 Resolve and 5 Composure to stand a chance.


One of the few merits of Exalted's mechanics is that you can usually improvise exactly what you want with only a little thought. Look at those race rules you seem to want. You just laid out an extended contested (Dexterity+<relevant ability>) roll with a varied difficulty for each person. That is already contained in the rules! No complicated subsystem needed, just a basic outline and some stunts. As long as you set the required threshold at a decent level (I hate the way the rules default to only 3 successes in a game system where your dice pools are in the 20-30 range), your players won't care that they aren't using the Athletics Combat Subsystem 2.5.

On further thought, yeah. I'm trying to put things that are really easy to think of a way to handle on the spot into formal rules, which is stupid.


As for your mental combat idea, I'll be blunt and tell you that I think it sucks. When it comes to knowing things, you either know them or you don't. Opposed Intelligence+Lore rolls won't make you smarter or him dumber, nor will they make him more likely to accept your superior intellect. Social rolls are how you convince people of things.

That's fair. I can't say you're wrong.


However, I will agree that Exalted does need true Mass Social Combat rules. I'm not talking about the stupid "convince everyone who is present at a scene of something" Mass Social Combat that we currently have. I'm talking about the sociopolitical and economic interactions between companies, political factions, and even entire cities that is supposed to be represented by the Mandate of Heaven rules but that fail miserably at their job.

Yeah. Mostly what I want is a Bureaucracy system, something for interacting with and managing large organizations. However, I can't think of how to approach making a system that works for a range of large-scale tasks, like expanding a business, making yourself influential in a big organization (other than just spending xp on Backing), fighting a plague (on a management level, not just going house-to-house using Medicine charms on everyone), etc.
What's needed here is probably a set of suggestions and guidelines rather than a rigid system.

Indon
2011-02-25, 05:20 PM
A thought on the "third edition" topic:

Rather than making or remaking systems for things, you could try doing the opposite - designing guidelines to make as many things as possible fall under the Attribute+Ability mechanic.

For instance, social combat. Rather than the intricate Social Combat rules meant to mirror standard combat rules (frankly, I disregard them entirely in favor of roleplaying), run two concurrent contested rolls - each person's offensive roll against the other person's defensive one, appearance and other factors providing modifiers as appropriate. Whichever player hits the threshold first achieves their goal in the social combat.

Heck, you could do the same with the _combat_ rules - devise guidelines for how non-roll combat mechanics (soak/hardness, minimum damage, speed, perfects) modify the two concurrent contested rolls, and reduce the combat mechanic itself to the same elegant mechanic that already governs the vast majority of the game.

a_humble_lich
2011-02-25, 05:40 PM
Yeah. Mostly what I want is a Bureaucracy system, something for interacting with and managing large organizations. However, I can't think of how to approach making a system that works for a range of large-scale tasks, like expanding a business, making yourself influential in a big organization (other than just spending xp on Backing), fighting a plague (on a management level, not just going house-to-house using Medicine charms on everyone), etc.
What's needed here is probably a set of suggestions and guidelines rather than a rigid system.

I agree. I agree with most of your changes, I'd also like to see

1. A use for socialize: I seems currently Socialize is used for the half sketched out mass social combat system, but I'd like to make it more clear what Socialize is good for.

2. A better physical mass combat system: I'd like to see the whole wear an army like gear concept gotten rid of. I like the revised version Kyeudo posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10177173&highlight=Mass+combat#post10177173) a while back. Characters can take place as heroes in Mass combat, but I don't like that combat between armies now is all about how powerful the exalted who lead them are and the 10000 soldier are fairly meaningless.

3. A better system for the Craft skills: Craft focused characters have to spend too many points on all the various craft skills. The common house rule of treating them as specialties could be a good change. (Actually I'm more ambivalent about this, but I do see there is a problem currently)

4. Decouple writing skill from knowing languages: Now it is hard to know many languages. Now starting characters can't know more than 6 languages, and the more languages you know the harder it is to learn the next one. I'd like to see dots in Linguistics give you extra languages as normal, but you can also buy an extra language (for say 4 xp) in addition that just gives you the ability to speak the language and doesn't effect your Linguistics skill.


Edit: I especially like your ideas of making combat less deadly. I think the results of must Exalted combat is the loser should flee of be unconscious, not dead.

Kyeudo
2011-02-25, 06:43 PM
Edit: I especially like your ideas of making combat less deadly. I think the results of must Exalted combat is the loser should flee of be unconscious, not dead.

I think what you mean is that the result of most Exalt on Exalt combat should be the loser flees or is unconcious. There is no way you can say that a mortal walking into a fight should have a good chance of surviving a loss, especially if his opponent is any sort of supernatural creature. Unconciousness is certainly possible for an Exalt, so long as there is some sort of change with how dying health levels work for the Exalted.

However, when it comes to Exalts fleeing, on a narative level, the hero escaping a losing battle or a villian living to be a threat later on is a commonly reoccuring trope and a useful plot device, on a setting level this feels wrong. Exalts usually have some investment in the outcome of a fight. If a Solar and an Abyssal clash in a village somewhere, the Solar has to win or the village will be slaughtered. The Abyssal has to win to create that shadowland he needs to advance his plan to take over Nexus. From an IC perspective, neither can afford to run from this fight until it is clear that they cannot win and even then the outcome of retreating may be worse to the Exalt than death. Can you honestly see a Compassion 5 Temperence 1 Exalt abandoning a village of innocents in their hour of need?

And when it does become clear one of them cannon win, how the heck is the loser going to effect his escape? He's probably empty on Essence and down a health level or two at the least. He has nothing availible to run. If you give him some sort of costless "escape clause" Charm, why didn't he use it in combat already to outmanuver his opponent? How do you make it easier to run away from someone while wounded than to chase down a wounded opponent? It just doesn't work on a mechanical level.


With all this talk of a hypothetical 3rd Edition, does anyone want to form a think tank on just exactly how deep Exalted's flaws run? If we can find the deepest cracks and fix them first, that might fix other problems down the line before they are actually problems.

Xefas
2011-02-25, 08:33 PM
However, when it comes to Exalts fleeing, on a narative level, the hero escaping a losing battle or a villian living to be a threat later on is a commonly reoccuring trope and a useful plot device, on a setting level this feels wrong. Exalts usually have some investment in the outcome of a fight. If a Solar and an Abyssal clash in a village somewhere, the Solar has to win or the village will be slaughtered. The Abyssal has to win to create that shadowland he needs to advance his plan to take over Nexus. From an IC perspective, neither can afford to run from this fight until it is clear that they cannot win and even then the outcome of retreating may be worse to the Exalt than death. Can you honestly see a Compassion 5 Temperence 1 Exalt abandoning a village of innocents in their hour of need?

And when it does become clear one of them cannon win, how the heck is the loser going to effect his escape? He's probably empty on Essence and down a health level or two at the least. He has nothing availible to run. If you give him some sort of costless "escape clause" Charm, why didn't he use it in combat already to outmanuver his opponent? How do you make it easier to run away from someone while wounded than to chase down a wounded opponent? It just doesn't work on a mechanical level.

If I were burning Exalted to the ground...
...and remaking it into its ultimate, glorious self that bears no resemblance to its previous incarnations, I'd implement a conflict resolution system similar to Mouse Guard.

Step 1: Both participants state what their Goal is. Why they're fighting. It can't be "So I can kill the other guy". In this case, Solar Bob's would be "Defend the inhabitants of his village", and Abyssal Melvin's would be "Slaughter the villagers".

Step 2: Fight. (You would have something like a Disposition score, that slides back and forth to represent how well you're doing.)

Step 3: Compare how well the loser did before they lost. If the winner had almost no Disposition left, then the loser gets a Major Compromise. If he had some left, a Moderate Compromise. If he had very little taken away at all, the loser gets a Minor Compromise. And if the loser did nothing against the winner, then he gets no compromise at all.

To use the above example, if Melvin wins, he gets what he wants and the villagers are slaughtered. However, if Bob gets a Major Compromise, then maybe he severely wounded Melvin and now Melvin won't be able to plague the area for a while, and Bob can go forth to hunt him down more easily later, and he managed to distract Melvin enough that a small number of villagers were able to hide in a cellar so the whole town isn't destroyed.

If Bob got a moderate compromise, maybe he gets the above, but is also severely wounded in the process.

If Bob got a minor compromise, maybe he's wounded and only gets one of the above.

If Bob got no compromise, then maybe he managed to fight off the Abyssal, but not before Melvin killed everyone down to the last man, woman, and child.

Why didn't Melvin kill him too? Maybe Bob used his Essence to appear like a much scarier foe than he really was, and only after Melvin left, did Bob collapse in a broken heap. Maybe Melvin kicked him 6 miles away, and Bob woke up several hours later in a crater. Maybe Melvin just decided he'd rather leave the Solar to bleed out a bit before coming back and finishing him off at leisure. Maybe, in his Abyssal cruelty, Melvin left Bob to contemplate his horrible failure because the mental anguish of others makes Melvin happy.

All of these examples could go lots of different ways, with lots of different compromises and circumstances, and uses of context that would be present in a longer campaign but aren't in short-lived examples.

I think abstraction is definitely the way to go.

The only problem is that it does take a bit of convincing. I've met a lot of people who sneer at this pretty much automatically. They play stuff like D&D, and White Wolf, and GURPS, and BESM, and complain about lethality, or lack of player agency (usually not in those words), or anticlimactic moments, or how things feel "unfair", or how most social systems feel like "mind control", but then you give them the solution and they assume it'll be terrible and unfun without even giving it a chance.

Abstraction in roleplaying games. It's a good thing.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-26, 10:08 PM
@Xefas: Yeah, I tend to knee-jerk dislike anything where the rules are mostly about what happens on a story level. Crunch is fun for me, so long as it allows for a pretty wide variety of viable builds and isn't too complicated. I can certainly see that approach working for a lot of groups, but it's not what I'd like to play.


However, when it comes to Exalts fleeing, on a narative level, the hero escaping a losing battle or a villian living to be a threat later on is a commonly reoccuring trope and a useful plot device, on a setting level this feels wrong... Can you honestly see a Compassion 5 Temperence 1 Exalt abandoning a village of innocents in their hour of need?

Well, yeah. Moral dilemmas are supposed to be a big part of the game. To me, having to choose between your life and accomplishing a goal seems like exactly the kind of thing that should happen regularly. The Compassion 5 guy can burn a Willpower and take a point of Limit to abandon them, or he can stay and die. That's the player's choice. If he thinks playing out a heroic sacrifice will be enough fun to be worth having to make a new character and so on, and the rest of the group has no problem with it, more power to him.


And when it does become clear one of them cannon win, how the heck is the loser going to effect his escape? He's probably empty on Essence and down a health level or two at the least. He has nothing availible to run. If you give him some sort of costless "escape clause" Charm, why didn't he use it in combat already to outmanuver his opponent? How do you make it easier to run away from someone while wounded than to chase down a wounded opponent? It just doesn't work on a mechanical level.

If a character doesn't try to flee until he's used up everything he could have used escaping to fight, then that's the choice he made. He can still try to argue his opponent into sparing him, or run away mundanely. And from an ST perspective, you can certainly have his opponent take him prisoner, or let him go due to confidence that he won't do better next time, a short-sighted Urge, amusement, respect for his failed efforts, or whatever. If the villain killed the protagonist the instant he could in every story, most fantasy and anime would be a lot shorter.
So Solar NPC Bob drags Abyssal PC Melvin off to preach at him about how everyone can be redeemed by the UCS. Or NPC Melvin cackles and leaves PC Bob unconscious as he slaughters the village, and PC Bob wakes up in a pile of corpses.
And if your PCs insist on killing their enemy, that's perfectly fine. You can always send more enemies after them. It's a game.
The issue is when it's really easy to accidentally instantly kill a PC or NPC Exalt, in the first case because it's not always fun and can mess up the plot, the second because fights that are determined the instant the first hit connects tend to be boring.


With all this talk of a hypothetical 3rd Edition, does anyone want to form a think tank on just exactly how deep Exalted's flaws run? If we can find the deepest cracks and fix them first, that might fix other problems down the line before they are actually problems.

Fixalted (http://fixalted.bazzalisk.org/index.php?title=Main_Page) probably counts as a think tank, it might be worth discussing things with the people there. There are also plenty of people on rpg.net who are intimately familiar with the mechanics, but they generally seem to think that any attempt at a fix either creates bigger problems or doesn't really fix anything.

IMO, the root of Exalted's combat problems is lethality. It's too easy to create a situation where any hit is instant death. So there are lots of defenses that make you impossible to harm. So there are lots of ways to get around those defenses so fights can actually happen. And so the combat system is like an onion, where every layer is labeled either "You're invincible" or "You're dead." I think it'd starting fresh would be easier and more likely to get a functional final result than trying to peel back through "If we get rid of ping and piercing soak-monster builds are hard to beat, if we remove the DV caps you'll need to spam perfect attacks to hit enemies with high DVs..." and so on until you get to a place where a wide variety of builds can survive and fight just fine and not too many are unstoppable.

Xefas
2011-02-26, 10:56 PM
@Xefas: Yeah, I tend to knee-jerk dislike anything where the rules are mostly about what happens on a story level. Crunch is fun for me, so long as it allows for a pretty wide variety of viable builds and isn't too complicated. I can certainly see that approach working for a lot of groups, but it's not what I'd like to play.

Yeah. I said the same thing (typically in a louder and more vulgar fashion - as is my nature), up until the point where someone I respected finally sat me down and forced me to play Burning Wheel with an open mind.

That's not really possible over the internet, though. I guess the best I can do is to suggest learning about game design. Not just particular mechanics, like cards vs dice, or dicepools vs die + modifier, or DC bellcurves. But the behavioral engineering type of game design. Start thinking about "What behavior does X mechanic in [my favorite system] reinforce?" and it might surprise you.

Urpriest
2011-02-26, 11:07 PM
Yeah. I said the same thing (typically in a louder and more vulgar fashion - as is my nature), up until the point where someone I respected finally sat me down and forced me to play Burning Wheel with an open mind.

That's not really possible over the internet, though. I guess the best I can do is to suggest learning about game design. Not just particular mechanics, like cards vs dice, or dicepools vs die + modifier, or DC bellcurves. But the behavioral engineering type of game design. Start thinking about "What behavior does X mechanic in [my favorite system] reinforce?" and it might surprise you.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of systems like Mouse Guard. It sounds excellent for telling a story, excellent for bringing the feel of improv into game mechanics, and those are definitely things I want out of a game. But not Exalted.

The thing about Exalted is, the Exalted world isn't actually that unique. As much as we all squee about its heroin-pissing dinosaurs and suchlike, at heart it's a kitchen-sink setting, and those are a dime a dozen. It may be on a more epic scale than, say, Forgotten Realms, but it's the same core principle.

The unique draw of Exalted, as I see it, is the way the rules interact with the world. Charms aren't just a way to abstractly say what characters are capable of, they are real things people learn. In some cases (Yozis being a cool example), your charms even determine your personality. Motes are real and countable. Stats like the Virtues actually represent how people think, and have an effect on their actions both in-world and mechanical. In short, Exalted isn't just a kitchen-sink of fantasy concepts: it's a kitchen sink of fantasy gaming concepts. Exalted is a world built off of game rules, rather than the other way around. Now this doesn't mean the game rules don't occasionally need updating to create a more fun game. But it does mean that if they don't feel "gaming"-y, if they're so fluid that they don't constrain and limit the setting, then the unique draw of Exalted will be lost.

Xefas
2011-02-26, 11:12 PM
The unique draw of Exalted, as I see it, is the way the rules interact with the world. Charms aren't just a way to abstractly say what characters are capable of, they are real things people learn. In some cases (Yozis being a cool example), your charms even determine your personality. Motes are real and countable. Stats like the Virtues actually represent how people think, and have an effect on their actions both in-world and mechanical. In short, Exalted isn't just a kitchen-sink of fantasy concepts: it's a kitchen sink of fantasy gaming concepts. Exalted is a world built off of game rules, rather than the other way around. Now this doesn't mean the game rules don't occasionally need updating to create a more fun game. But it does mean that if they don't feel "gaming"-y, if they're so fluid that they don't constrain and limit the setting, then the unique draw of Exalted will be lost.

I disagree that the two are mutually exclusive.

Indon
2011-02-26, 11:24 PM
I disagree that the two are mutually exclusive.

I think the point that he's trying to say is that if you build a game where in-game concepts are also in-character concepts, if you change the mechanics, you must necessarily either change that mechanics-setting relationship, or change the setting.

I don't see that as a matter of opinion, but as a sound logical claim.

Xefas
2011-02-26, 11:43 PM
I think the point that he's trying to say is that if you build a game where in-game concepts are also in-character concepts, if you change the mechanics, you must necessarily either change that mechanics-setting relationship, or change the setting.

No.


But it does mean that if they don't feel "gaming"-y, if they're so fluid that they don't constrain and limit the setting, then the unique draw of Exalted will be lost.

He's saying the above in contrast to my notion that Exalted would be improved by having more narratively abstract resolution mechanics.

I'm saying the two are not mutually exclusive.

To give an example: Free Market. Very similarly to Exalted, its mechanics are transparent with the game. Just like, in Exalted, you can say "I learned Murder Is Meat, and that's why I'm crazy", in Free Market you can say "I gave an Attaboy to my MRCZ leader, which granted him 2 Flow, and in exchange, he let me use his Mindscrewer 2000, which has the tags Ominous, Unnecessarily Violent, and Ephemera, to remove the Memory I got yesterday in response to that Ghosting Challenge."

All of those are game mechanics, and terms that define the way the setting functions. Every single term on the Free Market character sheet is an in-setting term, which is something that not even Exalted can boast.

At the same time, many of its conflict resolution mechanics involve abstraction.

There seems to be this idea that you can't have a mechanically dense game that also tells a good story. I would cite Burning Wheel, which is easily as complicated as D&D or Exalted, with a Core Book + Character Burner, Monster Burner, Adventure Burner, and Magic Burner. In combat, you easily have more options than the majority of Exalted characters. But all of those mechanics are well designed, and tell a good story.

Indon
2011-02-26, 11:57 PM
He's saying the above in contrast to my notion that Exalted would be improved by having more narratively abstract resolution mechanics.

Yeah.

It feels 'gaming-y' precisely because of the relationship between in-game and in-character concepts that I mentioned.


At the same time, many of its conflict resolution mechanics involve abstraction.
Exalted's combat mechanics also involve a degree of abstraction.

But not regarding the mechanics you clearly want to change. Your proposed ideal fix would remove, as game concepts, some of the kind of stuff that Urpriest is talking about (as an example, perfect attacks/defenses). Not all of it, probably, I suppose it'd depend on the details of your idea implementation. But some.

Which is where I clarify his point that the options would be to lose that 'gaming-y' feel, or to change the setting, for instance to remove perfect attacks and defenses.


There seems to be this idea that you can't have a mechanically dense game that also tells a good story.
What?

Xefas
2011-02-27, 12:07 AM
Exalted's combat mechanics also involve a degree of abstraction.

But not regarding the mechanics you clearly want to change. Your proposed ideal fix would remove, as game concepts, some of the kind of stuff that Urpriest is talking about (as an example, perfect attacks/defenses). Not all of it, probably, I suppose it'd depend on the details of your idea implementation. But some.

Which is where I clarify his point that the options would be to lose that 'gaming-y' feel, or to change the setting, for instance to remove perfect attacks and defenses.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Yes, for the system to change, then the system would have to change. However, I disagree that the setting would have to change or the setting-mechanic transparency would have to change.

Exalted is not 100% transparent. Characters don't typically say "I have 5 Dots in the Past Life Background, so I can add 5 dice to my Charisma plus Performance check, which is not constrained by the dice-adder cap for Charms, and I'll still have 4 uses left this session." or "I have two 'minus 4' health levels remaining".

By altering things that are not transparent, you can preserve the Exalted setting while also adding some much-needed abstraction.


What?

This was a reference to this:


Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of systems like Mouse Guard. It sounds excellent for telling a story, excellent for bringing the feel of improv into game mechanics, and those are definitely things I want out of a game. But not Exalted.

It seemed like his sentiment was that for some reason you would have to sacrifice freedom in storytelling to get the Exalted feeling.

Indon
2011-02-27, 12:28 AM
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Yes, for the system to change, then the system would have to change. However, I disagree that the setting would have to change or the setting-mechanic transparency would have to change.
It would necessarily become less transparent if you removed mechanical in-game concepts while maintaining their in-character equivalents, would it not?



It seemed like his sentiment was that for some reason you would have to sacrifice freedom in storytelling to get the Exalted feeling.

Well, you probably do need to sacrifice access to story elements the Exalted system reflects poorly - unless you want to improvise a power system for it, at least, and there're a lot of power systems available to draw from for inspiration.

For example, if you want an Exalted story about the success of the Thousand Rivers project and the ascendancy of non-Exalted humanity, you're probably going to need to expand upon the Thaumaturgy rules. The game material points you in the direction of the things you'd need (Thaumaturgy that allows mortals to emulate the powers of Exalts, for instance), but you'd need to write the procedures and such, probably in collaboration with your players, as you forge that story.

There is no such thing as an absolute sacrifice in gaming - but the effort-return ratio for a thing can be higher or lower.

Urpriest
2011-02-27, 12:42 AM
No.



He's saying the above in contrast to my notion that Exalted would be improved by having more narratively abstract resolution mechanics.

I'm saying the two are not mutually exclusive.

To give an example: Free Market. Very similarly to Exalted, its mechanics are transparent with the game. Just like, in Exalted, you can say "I learned Murder Is Meat, and that's why I'm crazy", in Free Market you can say "I gave an Attaboy to my MRCZ leader, which granted him 2 Flow, and in exchange, he let me use his Mindscrewer 2000, which has the tags Ominous, Unnecessarily Violent, and Ephemera, to remove the Memory I got yesterday in response to that Ghosting Challenge."

All of those are game mechanics, and terms that define the way the setting functions. Every single term on the Free Market character sheet is an in-setting term, which is something that not even Exalted can boast.

At the same time, many of its conflict resolution mechanics involve abstraction.

There seems to be this idea that you can't have a mechanically dense game that also tells a good story. I would cite Burning Wheel, which is easily as complicated as D&D or Exalted, with a Core Book + Character Burner, Monster Burner, Adventure Burner, and Magic Burner. In combat, you easily have more options than the majority of Exalted characters. But all of those mechanics are well designed, and tell a good story.

Hmm...you do provide good examples. Since I'm not very familiar with more story-based RPG systems, I wasn't aware they could get so mechanically involved. This does indeed seem closer to something Exalted could manage.

Still, I think that part of Exalted's charm is that it riffs off of established gaming structures. When I said that it was a gaming system made into a world and not vice versa, I don't mean just that the system maps well to the world, but that the system is partially based on independent, preexistent styles that in turn are forcibly applied to the setting. In a way, Exalted is a partial Tippyverse, to use this forum's terminology. The mechanics Exalted forges into its setting are by and large quite recognizable, and while they're modified to feel Exalted-y they still are very much a part of traditional gaming. Once Burning Wheel derivatives become more popular, I could see a world that riffs off of them being interesting. But currently they aren't common enough for Exalted to get much mileage by referencing them in its world design.

Xefas
2011-02-27, 01:18 AM
It would necessarily become less transparent if you removed mechanical in-game concepts while maintaining their in-character equivalents, would it not?

You wouldn't have to do this, necessarily. Exalted is not 100% transparent. There are some game mechanics with no in-setting equivalent. Health Levels, for instance. Health Levels are already an abstraction with no in-setting equivalent. If we abstracted them further, it would not change the setting at all.

In fact, I think abstracting them in the correct way would actually make the system reflect the setting more so.


Well, you probably do need to sacrifice access to story elements the Exalted system reflects poorly - unless you want to improvise a power system for it, at least, and there're a lot of power systems available to draw from for inspiration.

I'm not sure how what you're saying here has to do with what I said that you quoted. What you're quoting is the continuation of a tangent that I made that had nothing to do with Exalted in particular (and in retrospect, I probably should have kept to myself, as it's just confusing the point).


Hmm...you do provide good examples. Since I'm not very familiar with more story-based RPG systems, I wasn't aware they could get so mechanically involved. This does indeed seem closer to something Exalted could manage.

Still, I think that part of Exalted's charm is that it riffs off of established gaming structures. When I said that it was a gaming system made into a world and not vice versa, I don't mean just that the system maps well to the world, but that the system is partially based on independent, preexistent styles that in turn are forcibly applied to the setting. In a way, Exalted is a partial Tippyverse, to use this forum's terminology. The mechanics Exalted forges into its setting are by and large quite recognizable, and while they're modified to feel Exalted-y they still are very much a part of traditional gaming. Once Burning Wheel derivatives become more popular, I could see a world that riffs off of them being interesting. But currently they aren't common enough for Exalted to get much mileage by referencing them in its world design.

Ah, this segues nicely into my next point. Aside from this whole debate with Indon, I feel I need to mention something else. At this point, I've more been playing the devil's advocate than anything else. But, to my true opinion (which your opinion helps illustrate nicely):

Part of Exalted's problem is that its setting is...good, but its writing has problems. Mainly, that a lot of different people with a lot of different opinions about what the setting and game should be have all been writing on the same material without bothering to communicate.

In my opinion, while you could preserve the Exalted setting perfectly in every way 100% while improving the mechanics to an incredible extent, you will never make it as compelling a system as if you did some editing to the setting as a whole.

In the same way that D&D is all about combat, but has terrible combat, Exalted tries to have this rich mechanic-setting transparency and fantastically fails to do so properly. Its mechanics are broken, and its setting is disjointed, and they try to mesh, but both are too mangled.

Furthermore, a lot of arguing goes on about what is and isn't acceptable about characters and about charms and about the setting in general. It's not because the person you're arguing with is stupid. Its because the setting gives mixed signals. And because of this, you will never make an Exalted fix that fixes it for everyone.

So? Well, so, the problem is fundamentally unsolvable. The best you can do is fix it for some people.

I have no doubt that I could build a system that very well replicated a game where the players are returning God-Kings empowered by the sun, who go around performing larger-than-life feats of heroism in a world that intrinsically shuns them. Where the world has a fetish for the number 5, and everything is elementally themed, and there are divine bureaucracies, and a spooky Underworld, and demon-spirits and all this kind of thing. It would capture Exalted perfectly for me.

Would it fix it for Urpriest? Probably not. He's expressed part of the setting that he likes that had barely even occurred to me. Riffing on other settings just isn't important to my personal, intimate take on Exalted. However, I respect his opinion, and I could never say he's incorrect with his take. The setting is too subjective for that.

All I need to enjoy Exalted is a game where the players are returning God-Kings empowered by the sun, who go around performing larger-than-life feats of heroism in a world that intrinsically shuns them. Where the world has a fetish for the number 5, and everything is elementally themed, and there are divine bureaucracies, and a spooky Underworld, and demon-spirits and all this kind of thing. Etc etc.

That, to me, is Exalted. The current mechanics don't give me that. They give me a game that reward optimization and system mastery over roleplaying a shunned God-King, where it takes 5 hours to make a reasonably experienced character whereas I could be spending that time raiding decrepit manses and fighting demons, where artifacts range from stupidly useless to stupidly overpowered, and absolutely no ones charm set functions as advertised.

I could fix all that. And a million other things I find are wrong with the system. And all I would have to sacrifice are setting elements that I don't care about at all. And it would be Exalted to me. But it probably wouldn't be Exalted to anyone else.

Kyeudo
2011-02-27, 01:36 AM
Fixalted (http://fixalted.bazzalisk.org/index.php?title=Main_Page) probably counts as a think tank, it might be worth discussing things with the people there. There are also plenty of people on rpg.net who are intimately familiar with the mechanics, but they generally seem to think that any attempt at a fix either creates bigger problems or doesn't really fix anything.


I've looked at Fixalted several times. The problem is that most of what Fixalted contains are patches for existing pieces of the system or complete rewrites to systems other than the Storyteller framework. What I was talking about is examining the very underpinnings of the system, looking over each piece of mechanics to see if maybe some of the problems Exalted has actually start deeper than just the subsystem where the problems are observed.



IMO, the root of Exalted's combat problems is lethality. It's too easy to create a situation where any hit is instant death. So there are lots of defenses that make you impossible to harm. So there are lots of ways to get around those defenses so fights can actually happen. And so the combat system is like an onion, where every layer is labeled either "You're invincible" or "You're dead." I think it'd starting fresh would be easier and more likely to get a functional final result than trying to peel back through "If we get rid of ping and piercing soak-monster builds are hard to beat, if we remove the DV caps you'll need to spam perfect attacks to hit enemies with high DVs..." and so on until you get to a place where a wide variety of builds can survive and fight just fine and not too many are unstoppable.

I agree entirely. If you want to get combat that works, you have to start by looking over the base engine, getting the crap cleaned out, and then redesigning every combat Charm ever written so that they fit within a new paradigm.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-27, 09:13 AM
So, four out of the Five Magical Materials have Celestial Battle Armor made out of it. What about the other two (yes, despite the name, there are six materials within the Five Magical Materials now)? Originally, there was no jade Celestial Battle Armor, since Terrestrials could not attune to Celestial Battle Armors anyway, but what about Jade Caste Alchemicals? And what about Adamant Caste Alchemicals - do they not deserve an Adamant Celestial Battle Armor of their own?

DeadManSleeping
2011-02-27, 10:07 AM
Why would Alchemicals need Celestial Battle Armor? They ARE Celestial Battle Armor!

golentan
2011-02-27, 11:53 AM
Why would Alchemicals need Celestial Battle Armor? They ARE Celestial Battle Armor!

Yo, dawg, we heard you like armor so we put armor in your armor so you can tank while you tank...

Seriously though, I wholeheartedly support Adamant and Jade battle armors.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-27, 12:12 PM
Why would Alchemicals need Celestial Battle Armor? They ARE Celestial Battle Armor!

No, they are synthetic people. Even a metropolis or a patropolis is still fundamentally human, despite the massive divergence from the human body plan and psychology. And their bodies in the Champion form are so woefully fragile and incapable without Charms. The problem is, then, that Charms are very inefficient compared to Celestial Battle Armor. After all, the same armor can be used by dozens of Champions, even several different Champions at the same generation, if the state so approves. And if a current user of the armor dies in battle, the armor can be recovered and passed on to another. The Charms, on the other hand, are specific to a single Exalt, and will need to be reconstructed with each Alchemical. Clarity demands that redundant Charms not be created when a cheaper and more efficient alternate exists.

Tavar
2011-02-27, 01:14 PM
So, I got my hands on the Dragonblooded book, and might be making one for a game. But, I haven't had much time to look over the book. So, is there anything one should know before making a DB? Traps in the system, or the like?

Kyeudo
2011-02-27, 01:26 PM
So, I got my hands on the Dragonblooded book, and might be making one for a game. But, I haven't had much time to look over the book. So, is there anything one should know before making a DB? Traps in the system, or the like?

Practically every Charm has been Errata'd, sometimes beyond recognition.

The Rose Dragon
2011-02-27, 01:26 PM
So, I got my hands on the Dragonblooded book, and might be making one for a game. But, I haven't had much time to look over the book. So, is there anything one should know before making a DB? Traps in the system, or the like?

Their Charm trees are badly organized, and badly written. The errata fixes some of the problems, but not all of them. On the other hand, while their Charm trees are ability based, they do have Charms where elemental association is more important than the ability association, such as a defensive Charm in Thrown and an acrobatic Charm in Stealth.

Indon
2011-02-27, 10:55 PM
You wouldn't have to do this, necessarily. Exalted is not 100% transparent. There are some game mechanics with no in-setting equivalent. Health Levels, for instance. Health Levels are already an abstraction with no in-setting equivalent. If we abstracted them further, it would not change the setting at all.

In fact, I think abstracting them in the correct way would actually make the system reflect the setting more so.
Certainly.

But a lot of concepts people have problems with are ones that aren't abstract at all, like the aforementioned perfects. You essentially describe the point I've been trying to make all this time later in your post, though, so it's all good.


So? Well, so, the problem is fundamentally unsolvable. The best you can do is fix it for some people.
That aspect of the system works for some people already.

That subset of people are those GMs who derive a Creation from source materials but ultimately make it their own, rather than trying to stick to every RAW reference.

Using that paradigm, inconsistency can easily enrich the setting by providing GMs with multiple options on how to shape the story's 'backbone' to match the mechanics and concepts - though it can be tricky to know what material you need to keep an eye on as a GM to maintain consistency.


That, to me, is Exalted. The current mechanics don't give me that. They give me a game that reward optimization and system mastery over roleplaying a shunned God-King, where it takes 5 hours to make a reasonably experienced character whereas I could be spending that time raiding decrepit manses and fighting demons, where artifacts range from stupidly useless to stupidly overpowered, and absolutely no ones charm set functions as advertised.
I tell you what, I have never ran or played in a game of Exalted like this - except for the character creation part, which I encourage.

Edit:


And what about Adamant Caste Alchemicals - do they not deserve an Adamant Celestial Battle Armor of their own?

I thought Adamant wasn't a Magical Material because it's indigenous to Malfeas, and resonates with the now-exiled Yozis?

You could make artifacts with it, but I'm pretty sure they'd have to be Malfean ones.

Tavar
2011-02-27, 11:08 PM
I think that's Virtol, or what ever it's called. Adamant is found in creation, though it's not too common. It's somewhat more common in Autobot, as the core is comprised completely of it.

golentan
2011-02-27, 11:13 PM
Yeah. Adamant is most emphatically NOT malfean. Malfeas uses Vitriol (which is an Element, not a Magical Material), and when need be Malfean Brass, Malfean Iron, or Corrupted (by the use of vitriol) magical materials in their artifacts.

Edit: Or living and tortured demon souls. Those are fun too.

Drascin
2011-02-28, 01:35 AM
So, four out of the Five Magical Materials have Celestial Battle Armor made out of it. What about the other two (yes, despite the name, there are six materials within the Five Magical Materials now)? Originally, there was no jade Celestial Battle Armor, since Terrestrials could not attune to Celestial Battle Armors anyway, but what about Jade Caste Alchemicals? And what about Adamant Caste Alchemicals - do they not deserve an Adamant Celestial Battle Armor of their own?

In a game I was, my ST patched the Jade issue by creating a couple new Jade powers - don't remember the second, because I didn't pick it in the end, but one was Elemental Panoply, which basically let you pick and choose any two of the effects in Immaculate Dragon armor as one effect.

For adamant, I got nothing.


I tell you what, I have never ran or played in a game of Exalted like this - except for the character creation part, which I encourage.


To be honest, I have to back up Xefas on this. Whenever I play Exalted, given I don't have much system mastery, I routinely keep getting that feeling that my character is only still alive through luck and plot. There's very little feeling of god-kingness and a lot of feeling of halfcompetent-wimpness, really :smalltongue:

Reynard
2011-02-28, 02:33 AM
CBA should probably be 4-dot anyway, with the possible exception of the Oblivion's Panoply set up. It's certainly not that much better than the Immaculate Dragon armors to warrant another dot. Some might even say it was worse than the jade armours in some respects.

--

Earlier in this thread, I saw someone suggesting more charm activations, D&D style. So, rather than having "Charm use: y/n" you have Swift-action, Move-action, etc-action charms.

This sounds like a pretty good idea to my ears, and I may be hashing out some firmer rules (and suggestions for converting existing charms.)