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horngeek
2011-02-28, 03:57 AM
Eh... that only really works if you switch from a tick-based system to a turn-based system.

And to be honest? I like the tick-based system. It's different, and it makes Exalted work in terms of tactics- but time-based, not positioning-based.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-28, 04:28 AM
I quite like the tick system. It gives a sense of some things actually being fast way better than d&d.

Drascin
2011-02-28, 06:41 AM
I quite like the tick system. It gives a sense of some things actually being fast way better than d&d.

I dunno. Fights theorethically last twelve seconds, give or take, if ticks are taken literally, but I've never seen a fight were stunts wouldn't inevitably make it seem much longer - no matter what mechanics say, you can't backflip, bounce on a wall, grab the candelabra, swing round twice, and smash someone's face with the inertia... in three-four seconds, which is what the Speed of the average attack. Unless you're doing it so fast nobody's seen you do it anyway, which takes off the whole point of it :smalltongue:. Especially since, actually, it would seem you do it just in a single second, because you can move again from your opponent freely in any other ticks than your action one.

And then there's Rate. Apparently it's how many times you can hit with a weapon in a second? Because, again, you can get away soon as your action tick is over. Then after hitting five times in a single second, you have to wait for a few seconds, while your weapon repositions or something, I suppose.

With such redundancy and weirdness, it's hard to imagine the scenes in your head. Really, the whole Tick/Rate system kind of needs a cleanup.

Anyway, to the actual thing I wanted to talk about... anyone have any idea of what Lunar Intelligence Charms are supposed to do, niche-wise? I'm trying to make some custom stuff because poor No Moons get the least Charms of any Caste ever, even less that are actually usable in your average game (Form-Fixing is important for the setting, but doesn't actually do anything for a PC. Harmony with Reality is either useless or broken as hell depending on whether the ST allows Wyld Questing. Predator is Prey doesn't actually do anything mechanically. Seriously, reread it. A couple Intelligence charms are basically useless in any campaign that doesn't heavily feature the Fair Folk, and are underweming even then. And so on.). But while Perception Charms are easy and Wits seem to be primarily about reaction speed and dimensional ****ery, which is enough to imagine some stuff... I just don't know what to put into Intelligence. At least, what to put into intelligence that isn't "Solar Ability Charm, but sucking a lot", which seems to be kind of a standard in the Lunar charmset...

I've been making an Illusion tree, since No Moons are supposed to be tricky, indirect bastards (you get that Caste through beating trials through lateral thinking and indirect action), but as the mechanics grow, I get the feeling that people are going to scream at me to put them into Manipulation instead. So, maybe mutation stuff?

Tavar
2011-02-28, 09:35 AM
A tick being one second is at a bare minimum. Generally, if you're doing more stuff, it's actually longer than that.

As for rate and speed, I always viewed it as part of the abstraction necessary in any system. You're still fighting back and forth, but when it's not your action you haven't managed to set up the right opportunities to actually wound the other guy.

Indon
2011-02-28, 10:06 AM
I think that's Virtol, or what ever it's called. Adamant is found in creation, though it's not too common. It's somewhat more common in Autobot, as the core is comprised completely of it.

Ah. I suppose that makes sense, since Autochthon is still a full primordial, and so's Gaia, so even elements associated with Primordials could still be hanging around Creation.

Still, Adamant seems to me to resonate with Primordial essence, and, well, the closest thing to a Primordial-associated Exalt as far as I'd figure is an Alchemical of any caste.

Edit: What I'm getting at is that Adamant Battle Armor should be wildly distinct from the Exalts-designed-to-kill-Primordials battle armor. Something oriented more towards utility than sheer beatemupness.

Perhaps... Wyld/shaping resistance, active fate manipulation tools (so you could use it to defend or attack, or for other things, for a more versatile albeit less efficient implementation)... and I'll have to look up the other Celestial Battle Armor effects later so I can conjecture Adamant equivalents.


To be honest, I have to back up Xefas on this. Whenever I play Exalted, given I don't have much system mastery, I routinely keep getting that feeling that my character is only still alive through luck and plot. There's very little feeling of god-kingness and a lot of feeling of halfcompetent-wimpness, really :smalltongue:

Maybe it's a question of approach - what sort of thing goes on in the games you're in?


Eh... that only really works if you switch from a tick-based system to a turn-based system.

Hmm. Maybe not - you could use something like that to make a more sophisticated version of the Stunt system, with 'lesser', more easily-activated stunts and 'greater', more powerful ones, for instance.

And Drascin, I can't think of anything offhand driven by pure intelligence in the Exalted system - maybe some artifact crafting roll difficulties?

SurlySeraph
2011-02-28, 01:42 PM
@Drascin: Given No Moons' prophecy and behind-the-scenes themes, there seem to be some good unfilled possibilities for Intelligence charms.

I hesitate to say "Lunar Astrology," but it seems weird to me that there's so much emphasis on how the No Moons use astrology to track down newly exalted Lunars and they don't seem to have much that motivates that. A Charm that lets you near-instantly complete a thaumaturgical procedure if you succeed at the roll, but increases the risk of botching if you fail, is an idea; a No Moon burning some incense, glancing up at the sky, and immediately saying "37 miles northeast, skinny blonde kid, he Exalted near a river" seems thematic to me.

As a corollary to the "mind-shapeshifting" thoughts earlier in the thread, something that lets you shuffle around what thaumaturgy you can do would be an idea. Maybe say that you can only switch Procedures around within the same art but can switch Degrees between art, so buying a couple procedures doesn't mean instantly being able to do all thaumaturgy ever.

More boringly, something that lets you instantly figure out local customs and abide by them, instantly figure out how locals expect a particular kind of individual to act so you can disguise yourself more effectively and know just what you can get away with, etc.


Eh... that only really works if you switch from a tick-based system to a turn-based system.

And to be honest? I like the tick-based system. It's different, and it makes Exalted work in terms of tactics- but time-based, not positioning-based.

Why so? Activate a Charm on your main action, maybe activate a movement-related Charm as part of your free movement, activate a reflexive charm when someone attacks you. That's pretty close to standard, move, and swift/ immediate actions.
Now, I don't think giving a free movement-related Charm activation as part of your move is a good idea, since the system doesn't assume that that's a thing and you'd have to go through the books adding a new [Movement] keyword or something, but it's a way to add DnD-like actions within the tick-based context.

Continuing on system-rebuild thoughts from there, we could get rid of Rate and make Speed the only determinant of a weapon's speed. It would require plenty of playtesting and adjusting weapons' Speed values, possibly increasing the Speed of all actions to allow for meaningful variety within weapons. And it'd require a lot of work to keep things that reduce Speed from being even more monstrously awesome.

Indon
2011-02-28, 02:21 PM
Continuing on system-rebuild thoughts from there, we could get rid of Rate and make Speed the only determinant of a weapon's speed. It would require plenty of playtesting and adjusting weapons' Speed values, possibly increasing the Speed of all actions to allow for meaningful variety within weapons. And it'd require a lot of work to keep things that reduce Speed from being even more monstrously awesome.

Alternately, you could conform all Speed values for attacks (say, all attacks at speed 5), and make Speed instead modify Rate, so a Speed 6 weapon has a -1 to its' base Rate, for instance, and a Speed 3 weapon has a +2.

Now speed increasers are kinda meh at best, because what they do is make your rate further increase.

Edit: And a thaumaturgical focus for some Lunar charms has a lot of potential, what with its' usefulness in nation-building and other mortaly things.

Urpriest
2011-02-28, 09:44 PM
Predator is Prey doesn't actually do anything mechanically. Seriously, reread it.

I just reread the charm, and I can't see this. Care to explain?

golentan
2011-02-28, 11:09 PM
I just reread the charm, and I can't see this. Care to explain?

Yeah... It's a very good "Muahaha" charm to use on a foe, particularly because it's not shaping. Dice penalties, defense penalties, valor check, and it inflicts limitations on their charms and actions leap out as mechanical effects.

Actually... What happens to a DB using Sense Riding technique on a target of a lunar's Predator is Prey mirror? I think that the Lunar usurps the Dragonblood's sight, but the terrestrial can break the link at will?

Tavar
2011-02-28, 11:38 PM
Dragon-blooded need to make a successful Martial Arts check to activate form charms. No difficulty listed, so that means it sets to difficulty 0(so 1 success is a pass, right)?

golentan
2011-02-28, 11:49 PM
Dragon-blooded need to make a successful Martial Arts check to activate form charms. No difficulty listed, so that means it sets to difficulty 0(so 1 success is a pass, right)?

1 success is a pass, yes, IIRC. Though it's only for Celestial level form charms that they need to make the roll.

Kyeudo
2011-03-01, 01:48 AM
Continuing on system-rebuild thoughts from there, we could get rid of Rate and make Speed the only determinant of a weapon's speed. It would require plenty of playtesting and adjusting weapons' Speed values, possibly increasing the Speed of all actions to allow for meaningful variety within weapons. And it'd require a lot of work to keep things that reduce Speed from being even more monstrously awesome.

I actually like having Flurries, as it provides most of what little depth the basic combat mechanics actually contain. Deciding when and how many attacks to flurry is almost your only real choice in combat.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-01, 07:16 AM
Dragon-blooded need to make a successful Martial Arts check to activate form charms. No difficulty listed, so that means it sets to difficulty 0(so 1 success is a pass, right)?

Celestial Martial Styles' Form Charms, and no, it is Difficulty 1 (which still means 1 success is all that's necessary). There are no Difficulty 0 actions in Exalted that are rolled.

Weimann
2011-03-01, 03:58 PM
Question: any one else getting "Error 503. The service is unavailable." when they try to go to the White Wolf forum, or is it just my connection that's being particularly bad today?

I think I even got some 404 errors :smalleek:

Tavar
2011-03-02, 03:30 PM
Is there a firm relationship between Bonus Points and XP? Even within a splat?

Indon
2011-03-02, 03:45 PM
Is there a firm relationship between Bonus Points and XP? Even within a splat?

Scroll of Heroes suggests a 1 bonus point to 2 XP conversion for merits and flaws gained in play, if an ST chooses to go that route.

There may also be a similar suggestion for backgrounds gained/lost, I'm not sure what the conversion factor there is.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-02, 03:45 PM
Nope! The large power disparities you can get depending on how you spend your BP (i.e., it's more efficient to raise as many things as possible to 5 at the start and become well-rounded later) are one of the more annoying bits of Exalted character creation.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-02, 03:54 PM
The guideline I know of is that a BP is worth about 3exp. That's the rate for backgrounds. This makes charms way better with exp (3 or 4bp/8exp), and high abilities far better with BP.
(for a fourth dot, 1bp or 5/6exp)

Tavar
2011-03-02, 03:57 PM
Ah. Trying to decide what to spend my 18 bonus points and 40 xp on for a game, and I would like to raise my DB's essence to 3 pre-game. It's 10 BP or 20 xp, so I'm trying to decide which is more valuable.


Also, the scene in the back of the MoEP:DB between The Roseblack and her grandfather, is there an official/semi official destination for her orders? Or is it another of those whatever the ST wants?

Kyeudo
2011-03-02, 04:15 PM
Ah. Trying to decide what to spend my 18 bonus points and 40 xp on for a game, and I would like to raise my DB's essence to 3 pre-game. It's 10 BP or 20 xp, so I'm trying to decide which is more valuable.


10 BP is more valuble, as you can stretch it far further than 20 XP. If you spend it to increase Favored Abilities rated at least at 2, each BP is at least 3 XP and possibly as much as 7 XP. Willpower and Virtues are similarly better places to sink your BP than into Essence.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-02, 04:29 PM
Also, the scene in the back of the MoEP:DB between The Roseblack and her grandfather, is there an official/semi official destination for her orders? Or is it another of those whatever the ST wants?
I believe comics are non-canon.
...unless the ST says otherwise. OfC.

Lochar
2011-03-02, 05:05 PM
Ah. Trying to decide what to spend my 18 bonus points and 40 xp on for a game, and I would like to raise my DB's essence to 3 pre-game. It's 10 BP or 20 xp, so I'm trying to decide which is more valuable.


Also, the scene in the back of the MoEP:DB between The Roseblack and her grandfather, is there an official/semi official destination for her orders? Or is it another of those whatever the ST wants?

Note however that you can't pick up Essence 3 charms at creation if you decide to use XP to get Essence 3, as XP is past character creation. So you'd have to spend part of the 40 XP on your Essence 3 Charms.

IcarusWings
2011-03-02, 05:19 PM
Just a note, the aforementioned Kingdom Hearts game is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10479965#post10479965). And I'll working on a homebrew Heart Caste for all the stuff on the homebrew boards pretty soon.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-02, 05:23 PM
Suggestions on naming a Combo for the Shoat of the Mire?

It's a Combo of Flickering Wisp Technique (the Abyssal perfect Dodge) + Uncanny Impulse Evasion (their surprise-negator) + Five Birds, One Stone (a Thrown Extra Action Charm) + Iron Clutch of the Raptor (a Thrown perfect parry + Counterattack Charm) + Aid of Ill Wind (the Mirror of Triple-Distance Attack Technique).

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-02, 05:30 PM
Master of the Razor Storm Kata!

I think my favorite combo name I came up with was God-Forged Behemoth Felling Atemi, but that doesn't fit this combo.

golentan
2011-03-02, 05:33 PM
Limitless Talons of the Agile Raptor? Untouchable Shadow Shurikens?

Jokasti
2011-03-02, 05:34 PM
Nobody Can Touch Me While I Cry And Write Clichéd Emo Poetry In The Corner But If You Try To My Bloodstained Tears Will Rise From My Bone White Face And Attempt To Cut You Seriously Though You Can't Touch This

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-02, 05:37 PM
Nobody Can Touch Me While I Cry And Write Clichéd Emo Poetry In The Corner But If You Try To My Bloodstained Tears Will Rise From My Bone White Face And Attempt To Cut You Seriously Though You Can't Touch This

Too Green Sun Prince.

Jokasti
2011-03-02, 05:53 PM
Too Green Sun Prince.

You're right, you could touch an Abyssal, but not a GSP.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-02, 06:25 PM
Is that an angry terrestrial in here or did someone just get /BURNT/
:smallbiggrin:

Tavar
2011-03-02, 07:19 PM
Note however that you can't pick up Essence 3 charms at creation if you decide to use XP to get Essence 3, as XP is past character creation. So you'd have to spend part of the 40 XP on your Essence 3 Charms.
Point. But so far, I'm mainly looking at Excellencies and charms at the start of trees, so that isn't an issue.

I believe comics are non-canon.
...unless the ST says otherwise. OfC.
You're right, they are. Perhaps it would be better to say if that plot path had been expanded at all.

Jokasti
2011-03-02, 07:22 PM
I would wager to fight that independent legion general in the South who seceded from the Empire. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the details are in CoTD:South.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-02, 09:25 PM
Suggestions on naming a Combo for the Shoat of the Mire?

It's a Combo of Flickering Wisp Technique (the Abyssal perfect Dodge) + Uncanny Impulse Evasion (their surprise-negator) + Five Birds, One Stone (a Thrown Extra Action Charm) + Iron Clutch of the Raptor (a Thrown perfect parry + Counterattack Charm) + Aid of Ill Wind (the Mirror of Triple-Distance Attack Technique).

Bone Mist Hail?

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-02, 10:27 PM
Heeey, yooouuu guuuys... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189438)

EDIT: Also, I like "Master of the Razor Storm Kata" most so far. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Jokasti
2011-03-02, 10:55 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188709
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189414
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186361
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187077
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187948
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189363
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188659
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185896
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186288
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188258
Since I CBF to format it or anything on my phone. This just reminds me I need to work on my Primordial. I love it and I hate it. Mostly love though.

tonberrian
2011-03-03, 12:21 AM
If I weren't trying to get my life together (job, girl, etc.) I would totally work on my Heretic.

Absolutely.

No doubt at all.

I would seriously be finishing it off in the near future.

Umm...

Look over there! Shiny!

Edit: Okay, so last night I had the absolute most amazing Exalted-esque dream ever (lot of Exalted setting details, but the tech level was much higher).

Then I promptly forgot most of it when I woke up (:smallfurious:).

Among the cool things done were utterly annihilating a Deathlord as a casual thing, foiling a revivication of Malfeas, using the pit of Oblivion as my personal locker (after stealing the idea from aforementioned Deathlord), and hiding a ridiculously powerful artifact in a box whose location was designated inside itself. There was also something that caused utter madness in whoever tried to comprehend it, which I succumbed to, put myself back from, and negated somehow, but unrelated to the artifact above. I think that the madness thing had something to do with the revivication plot. This was all part of the third big adventure of a teacher at an academy, who was getting quite cocky about the whole saving the world thing. His day job was basically showing up all the other professers, because he was kind of a little Richard.

It was more awesome when I dreamed it, I swear.

Lochar
2011-03-03, 04:30 PM
Alright, question about Charm vs Sorcery.

Glorious Solar Saber. We'll use the Speed 5 version of the blade.

For 6 motes, 1 willpower you get a previously determined blade that has Melee x2 points split between Acc, Defense, and Lethal damage. Rate 5 The blade lasts one scene and is Holy.

Requirements: 1 prereq charm and this one, Melee 4, Essence 3.

Wood Dragon's Claw. Speed 5 claw.

For 10 motes, 1 willpower you get a variable unarmed martial arts attack that lets you divide 15 points between Acc, Defense, Lethal Damage, and Rate. The claw lasts until you dismiss it.

Requirements: Emerald Sorcery, this spell, Occult 3, Essence 3.


Alright, minus to obvious fact that the claw stands out, how is you can get a better weapon for almost everything other than "Obvious Magic User" for a silly 4 extra motes? To get even close to Wood Dragon, you need Melee 5, and then you're still 5 points off of Wood Dragon. And no, I'm not counting rating Wood Dragon's rate above 3, because anything above 3 attacks you're likely using an Extra Action charm anyways.


So, I'd like to propose an upgrade Charm for Glorious Solar Saber.


Triumphant Sunblade
Costs: -(+4m) ; Mins: Melee 5, Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Prerequisite Charms: Glorious Solar Saber

Truly, the Solars are the pinnacle of their craft, regardless of what it is. In this case, it is the art of combat.

This Charm upgrades its prerequisite, adding a number of points the Solar may split between Accuracy, Defense, and Lethal damage on the weapon by their Melee skill plus their Essence. Therefore, the Speed 3 Saber gains (Meleex2 + Essence) points to distribute, and the Speed 5 Saber gains (Meleex3 + Essence) points to distribute. All previous purchases of Glorious Solar Saber may immediately be redesigned.

Calling forth such a powerful blade increases the cost of the saber by four motes, to a total of ten motes and one willpower. The Solar may spend an additional four motes as normal to summon paired blades, which makes the total 14 motes plus one willpower. If he has multiple versions of Glorious Solar Saber, a different blade may be called and is still considered paired.

Blades of different speed are always considered to use the higher of the two speeds for attacks.

tonberrian
2011-03-03, 04:40 PM
GSS was errata'd, now it creates a basic artifact weapon with nifty Overdrive motes.

Lochar
2011-03-03, 04:40 PM
orly?

Gotta go look that up, apparently. Off to the wiki!

Tavar
2011-03-03, 04:41 PM
Actually, there's an errata'd version of Glorious Solar Saber.

Glorious Solar Saber
(p. 192)
Cost: 3m, 1wp or 5m, 1wp
Replace the text of this Charm with the following:
The Essence of the Lawgiver manifests in a gleaming blade
of the sun. This blade is always a glowing weapon that inflicts
aggravated damage to creatures of darkness and sheds light as
bright as a torch. The Exalt can summon this weapon to her
hand from anywhere it has fallen, as a diceless, miscellaneous
action.
The character defines the form of her weapon upon purchasing
this Charm. Statistically, the weapon has traits equal
to single or paired basic 1, 2 or 3-dot close-range orichalcum
artifact weapon (such as a daiklave, grimcleaver, or direlance)
of the player’s choice. Paired 1-dot weapons or a singular 2-dot
weapon costs 3m. Paired 2-dot weapons or a single 3-dot weapon
costs 5m. “Brawling aides” such as smashfists are not valid
forms.
Players wishing to have multiple options may purchase this
Charm a number of times equal to their character’s Melee
score, creating a different weapon with each purchase.
If the character possesses an Overdrive pool, she gains one
offensive mote to that pool each action while she is actively
wielding Glorious Solar Saber. The character must be in battle
to benefit from the one mote drip. She may only benefit from
one drip from weaponry at a time.


Also, to cast the spell, don't you need to take 1 shape sorcery action? If you're in battle, that's pretty deadly.

Lochar
2011-03-03, 04:50 PM
Yeah, but the sorcery lasts forever. If you're willing to walk around with a dragon claw, you don't have to bother casting it in battle.


And I'm not still fully convinced about the errata'd version. You could still use Wood Dragon claw as a +15 Defense item, and then wield another weapon in the other hand. I was trying to capture some of that in my upgraded Charm.

Tavar
2011-03-03, 04:55 PM
That seems to be more of a problem with the spell than the charm.

Lochar
2011-03-03, 05:02 PM
Yes, but I'd like something with more than +3 Defense on it. Dex+Dodge+Essence is much higher than Dex+Melee+Weapon Defense in most cases.

*shrug*

Think I can get away with paired weapons having different stats? I'm trying to build something like a Musketeer, with a primary weapon and a main gauche for defense.

horngeek
2011-03-03, 05:14 PM
But... Overdrive motes! Given Exalted Paranoia combat, that becomes a LOT more valuable than a better-statted weapon.

Lochar
2011-03-03, 05:26 PM
One mote per action. Given Exalted Paranoia, three actions is 9 ticks. That's one free Seven Shadows every 9 ticks. Combat until you get into the stupid high essence perfect attack/perfect defense game is over in about 15-25 ticks. *shrug*

To each their own. I'd use the errata version if I could pair different two dot weapons, so I could have something with at least a decent defense.

Ascetics.

Indon
2011-03-03, 05:30 PM
Also, Lochar, the non-Errata'd version is superior to Wood Dragon Claw if you make two weapons, because you can allocate that pool independently per weapon.

From there, you designate one weapon as your parrying weapon and put all its' points into Defense.

Now you're effectively getting 4xmelee points for your weapons, half of which is going solely into your Defense.


Think I can get away with paired weapons having different stats? I'm trying to build something like a Musketeer, with a primary weapon and a main gauche for defense.

Yes, the system supports this, and the GSS borderline exploit I describe above is dependent on it.

Lochar
2011-03-03, 05:33 PM
True. And even using the Speed 3 weapons gives a Defense+5 parrying weapon, which is pretty much what I was looking for.

Tavar
2011-03-04, 02:13 AM
Hmm. I've seen people putting up graphical charm tree's up, and they tend to look very nice. Is it just experience with graphical programs, or is there a shortcut out there?

Indon
2011-03-04, 03:15 PM
Hmm. I've seen people putting up graphical charm tree's up, and they tend to look very nice. Is it just experience with graphical programs, or is there a shortcut out there?

What format do they look like? Because I know Anathema (http://anathema.sourceforge.net/?page=downloads) has the ability to graphically display charm trees.

Tavar
2011-03-04, 08:18 PM
True, but it only does charms in it's database, and it's really hard to add new ones. I'm looking for a way to easily make a tree. Can't find many right now, though there is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187324).

Xefas
2011-03-04, 08:35 PM
Can't find many right now, though there is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187324).

I just drew that one, myself, in Fireworks. I don't really have any skill or experience with the program, but doing a charm tree is just a matter of throwing together a few shapes, a filter, and a gradient. If you want me to do a similar one for you, I can.

Lochar
2011-03-04, 10:23 PM
Heck, you could pull it off in Visio or other flowcharting software.

Tavar
2011-03-04, 10:28 PM
Heck, you could pull it off in Visio or other flowcharting software.

....


flowcharting software.
Oh. Didn't know they had something like that. It's be perfect.

Kyeudo
2011-03-05, 12:48 AM
When I design Charm trees, I use UMLet (http://www.umlet.com/). It's free and easy to use. It's made for UML diagrams, but you can use it for practically anything where you connect boxes with arrows.

Tael
2011-03-05, 07:58 PM
I have a few newbish questions for the community:

What exactly does aggravated damage do that lethal doesn't?

How do unnatural mental influence charms work at all? It seems like charms like Vanishing from the Mind's Eye are just terrible, because a guard can just spend 4 willpower and see you with no difficulty. Similarly, why do social charms ever work? Do opponents just spend willpower until one of them caves?

If one can't wear armor (because of Snake Style of something similar) how does one generally compensate?

Sorcery seems terrible. Are there any good fixes? (apart from getting more splatbooks)

Grand Goremauls seem incredibly overpowered. Is this just me?

And last but not least, how the hell does two-weapon fighting work? I can't seem to find any rules on it.

DeadManSleeping
2011-03-05, 08:07 PM
What exactly does aggravated damage do that lethal doesn't?

Bypass natural soak, heal slowly, and possibly scar even an Exalt


How do unnatural mental influence charms work at all? It seems like charms like Vanishing from the Mind's Eye are just terrible, because a guard can just spend 4 willpower and see you with no difficulty. Similarly, why do social charms ever work? Do opponents just spend willpower until one of them caves?

It's a flawed system, but think of it like this: how often do you commit nearly all your mental energy to something without knowing exactly what it was, even knowing that if you did that, you'd be burnt out for days? Yeah, people won't automatically spend a large amount of WP unless they really think it's worth it.


If one can't wear armor (because of Snake Style of something similar) how does one generally compensate?

Not getting hit. In fact, that's what one generally tries to do with armor too. Also, Exalts who aren't Sidereals have access to good soak-adding Charms.


Sorcery seems terrible. Are there any good fixes? (apart from getting more splatbooks)

Sorcery relies on having good spells. Whether you get the White&Black Treatise so you have a bunch of spells, or you make up your own, that's the key.


Grand Goremauls seem incredibly overpowered. Is this just me?

You'll run into a lot of overpowered things in Exalted. Yes, Grand Goremauls are one of them, but they're hardly the last. If you try to stave off every overpowered thing in Exalted, you'll never have time for anything else.


And last but not least, how the hell does two-weapon fighting work? I can't seem to find any rules on it.

You're holding two weapons at the same time. That's it. Each of them has an independent Rate, but honestly, if you're doing more than 3 attacks in one turn, you're playing a very strange game. If you have a weapon with a good attack and a different weapon with a good defense, that's also good. Magic weapons may offer different powers which it is convenient to access at the same time.

But, mostly, it's just to look nice.

Tavar
2011-03-05, 08:13 PM
Well, there are charms that help mitigate flurry penalties. Or get free reflexive attacks.

Also, general guidelines on NPC willpower expenditure=Borgstroms Suggestions On Social Combat (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Borgstroms_Suggestions_On_Social_C ombat)

Edit: also, there are off hand penalties, and some other things that make attacking with both hands harder.

MickJay
2011-03-05, 08:20 PM
I have a few newbish questions for the community:

What exactly does aggravated damage do that lethal doesn't?

How do unnatural mental influence charms work at all? It seems like charms like Vanishing from the Mind's Eye are just terrible, because a guard can just spend 4 willpower and see you with no difficulty. Similarly, why do social charms ever work? Do opponents just spend willpower until one of them caves?

If one can't wear armor (because of Snake Style of something similar) how does one generally compensate?

Sorcery seems terrible. Are there any good fixes? (apart from getting more splatbooks)

Grand Goremauls seem incredibly overpowered. Is this just me?

And last but not least, how the hell does two-weapon fighting work? I can't seem to find any rules on it.

1. Aggravated damage is much harder to soak (only more advanced charms), and heals more slowly.

2. Depends on ST, from what I can tell. Intense social combat does tend to boil down to wearing down opponent's WP, and requires multiple social combat charms to eat it up (or just a prolonged "mundane" discussion, which can accomplish the same, if your dicepool is large enough). As to spending willpower to overcome non-social combat charms - it's quite tricky to get it right. Will an ordinary guard even have 4 WP (mook houserules)? Will he be willing to spend it all? What does this expenditure represent? etc. Social combat and unnatural mental influences tend to rely heavily on a particular ST's houserules to work smoothly.

3. Sorcery (especially terrestrial circle) is mostly about utility spells, and it's indeed quite limited, though you can just start researching your own spells (much like charms). The power lies in being able to summon demons and spirits to do your bidding (played extensively and smartly enough, it can effectively grant you a dozen or two of demonic henchmen and retinue with a plethora of powers at your disposal).

4. Dodge charms, Resistance charms, Dodge charms, Melee (parrying), and Dodge charms. In fact, relying on soak, unless you can get it into thirties at least, is likely to get you killed very quickly. And don't forget to invest in Dodge charms.

5. Grand Goremauls are massively powerful, but - as most of artifacts in this "price range" - they're just big sticks for hitting people. They will kill any mortal, but any worthy opponent worth his salt will be able to deal with it one way or another, and it will come down to charms, rather than the sheer power of your weapon.

6. Dual wielding comes down to having a -2 offhand penalty (external) for attacks made with the other hand, and otherwise, it comes down to rate (effectively double rate for identical weapons, or you can attack with different weapons up to their rate). Occasionally wielding paired weapons allows you to attack even without that penalty, meaning you simply double the rate. You're unlikely to fully use the rate, since the more attacks you make, the less accurate they are, and the more exposed you become yourself (unless you build your character around flurries and have charms to make it workable rather than suicidal).

Edit: night caste'd :P

Tavar
2011-03-05, 08:28 PM
4. Dodge charms, Resistance charms, Dodge charms, Melee (parrying), and Dodge charms. In fact, relying on soak, unless you can get it into thirties at least, is likely to get you killed very quickly. And don't forget to invest in Dodge charms.
Even soak in the thirties isn't going to save you from minimum damage ping. And that damage will add up, especially if the person has some flurry charms. For example, Solar using a couple free reflexive attacks+Flurrying for max with penalty reducers. Pretty much every attack was reduced to minimum, but he still wore down about half of the Storm Spirit's health levels.

MickJay
2011-03-05, 08:44 PM
Fair point - although high Hardness might help to negate much of that (it's still very unreliable, though, and an opponent's lucky roll can still kill you). Again, you need those flurry breaking charms (i.e., Dodge :smalltongue: ).

Tavar
2011-03-05, 08:45 PM
Hardness is like damage reduction in DnD(at least, damage reduction that Players have access to); not high enough to matter, 9 times out of 10.

Lochar
2011-03-05, 09:00 PM
Lunars have a charm that sets their hardness to their non-armor Soak. Oddly enough, it branches off the armor creating Charm.

But with enough internal soak, a Lunar could use Hardness against just about anything.

Tavar
2011-03-05, 09:06 PM
Really? What's the charms name?

And, you're right, there are ways to get it high enough. Just not common, and not in the core book.

Lochar
2011-03-05, 09:43 PM
Stone Rhino's Skin.

Tael
2011-03-05, 10:28 PM
It's a flawed system, but think of it like this: how often do you commit nearly all your mental energy to something without knowing exactly what it was, even knowing that if you did that, you'd be burnt out for days? Yeah, people won't automatically spend a large amount of WP unless they really think it's worth it.


All right, I get pretty much everything else, but I'm still having some trouble with this. How the hell does a guard, or even a group of Dragon-Blooded, know whether to spend the Willpower or not? I'm just not seeing it. It's not like someone sees you, weighs out the consequences of spending willpower or not, and then chooses. And what does spending Willpower even mean to normal people?

What do people think of a houserule that requires people to roll something like, maybe, (Appropriate Virtue (normally conviction) + Essence + modifiers for motivation/intimacy) with a difficulty of the amount of willpower they want to spend?

Tavar
2011-03-05, 10:30 PM
All right, I get pretty much everything else, but I'm still having some trouble with this. How the hell does a guard, or even a group of Dragon-Blooded, know whether to spend the Willpower or not? I'm just not seeing it. It's not like someone sees you, weighs out the consequences of spending willpower or not, and then chooses. And what does spending Willpower even mean to normal people?




Also, general guidelines on NPC willpower expenditure=Borgstroms Suggestions On Social Combat (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Borgstroms_Suggestions_On_Social_C ombat)

That might help you.

Tael
2011-03-05, 10:38 PM
That might help you.

I have read it, but I still don't understand the reasoning behind it. How does the guard know that exalt is setting up a deathtrap in the example? What are the negative impacts of spending willpower?

I also don't like the fact that, unless one's motivation is threatened, there is literally no chance of resisting the effect. And the fact that it's entirely based on motivation, requiring an ST to give every extra and their grandmother a motivation.

Tavar
2011-03-05, 10:48 PM
I have read it, but I still don't understand the reasoning behind it. How does the guard know that exalt is setting up a deathtrap in the example? What are the negative impacts of spending willpower?
Here's how it works. The Guard does see what's actually going on. But the UMI makes it so that consciously, he doesn't. Unconsciously, though, he might spends Willpower, if his subconscious felt in necessary.

Technically, there are none, but Willpower is a PC centric mechanic. Giving NPC's the same access to it is bad design, so the ST is supposed to intentionally limit their use of it.


I also don't like the fact that, unless one's motivation is threatened, there is literally no chance of resisting the effect. And the fact that it's entirely based on motivation, requiring an ST to give every extra and their grandmother a motivation.
That's the point of the system. Unless something is violating you're core beliefs, then it's easy to persuade you(assuming NPC's).

Also, every guard/extra should have a motivation. But, extra's generally have the same one; survive/enjoy life. Maybe 'follow X's orders' for extremely loyal people/fanatics. That's why they're extras. And almost every named NPC must have one, because motivations are so entwined with the rules.

Lochar
2011-03-05, 10:49 PM
Everyone has a Motivation. Unless it's important or otherwise game challenging, it usually is some variation on "Ensure the survival and well being of myself and my family"

Therefore that 4 willpower expenditure? Metagame, what are the odds of the Exalt killing the mortal, versus the odds of losing out on their job?

Guancyto
2011-03-05, 10:52 PM
I like it, because it forces you to use mental invisibility charms to do something besides surprise attack a guy. Even if it's as simple as hiding from his buddies, because they don't care enough about him to spend the wp, he's just an Intimacy.

Also note that threatening their high virtues is ~4wp by that system. If you're about to shank his kid, an extra with Compassion 3+ can (can, not will) get his great, heroic moment, pull every last bit of willpower he has, become consciously aware of your existence and try to stop you. And then die because he's an extra facing an Exalted, but at least he tried.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-03-05, 11:01 PM
I have read it, but I still don't understand the reasoning behind it. How does the guard know that exalt is setting up a deathtrap in the example?

With that specific charm, the "invisibility" effect works by you literally convincing the people around you that they don't see you. Spending the Willpower allows you to ignore every rational instinct that tells you that nothing is there.


What are the negative impacts of spending willpower?

That you don't have that Willpower anymore. Willpower is very, very important for a large number of things. Even for someone with 10 Willpower, spending 4 points is a pretty big chunk of your pool.


I also don't like the fact that, unless one's motivation is threatened, there is literally no chance of resisting the effect. And the fact that it's entirely based on motivation, requiring an ST to give every extra and their grandmother a motivation.

She's talking about mortals right there. Even if a mortal can muster the strength of will to throw off Mental Invisibility Technique, the Exalt is still going to be able to kill them without even trying. They, quite frankly, don't really matter all that much in the face of a Solar.

And Motivations are simple things for anything below heroic mortal level. You can assume that something along the lines of "enjoy my life" is the Motivation of everyone that's not noteworthy.

Lochar
2011-03-05, 11:01 PM
If an Extra and the Exalted is a Day caste about to shank his kid, I'm sensing a Solar Exaltation about to happen. :P

Mr.Bookworm
2011-03-05, 11:08 PM
If an Extra and the Exalted is a Day caste about to shank his kid, I'm sensing a Solar Exaltation about to happen. :P

You wouldn't be an extra if you have the potential to Exalt, but yeah.

Also, that reminds me of something. Are there any concrete rules on what happens in the moments after someone Exalts? Unless I'm completely misremembering, the Exalt gets a big surge of power when they first Exalt as the Exaltation releases a huge amount of energy through them. Are there rules for this anywhere, or even a developer post somewhere? Exalted generally tries (succeeding is another issue) to make everything in the backstory playable (which is why I hate the Three Spheres Cataclysm with a burning passion, but again, another issue).

I could be having a brainfart on this, though.

tonberrian
2011-03-05, 11:32 PM
The only concrete thing I can remember is that Exalting heals all the wounds you currently have.

Indon
2011-03-06, 12:15 AM
You wouldn't be an extra if you have the potential to Exalt, but yeah.

Well, arguably, an NPC stops being an extra when they start up with the heroics thing.

Heh, Lunar social experiment idea: A Lunar, hearing of the return of the Solars, attempts to maximize the chances of Solars exalting in his pet kingdom by doing everything he can to drive each and every one of the mortals in his kingdom to their limits - and beyond - while trying not to kill them outright.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-06, 02:17 AM
Also, that reminds me of something. Are there any concrete rules on what happens in the moments after someone Exalts? Unless I'm completely misremembering, the Exalt gets a big surge of power when they first Exalt as the Exaltation releases a huge amount of energy through them. Are there rules for this anywhere, or even a developer post somewhere?IIRC, didn't they have something in the Abyssal section on Scroll of Errata?

Reynard
2011-03-06, 03:07 AM
IIRC, didn't they have something in the Abyssal section on Scroll of Errata?

I've always taken the idea that, for that one glorious scene, a new Celestial Exalt is a hell of a lot more powerful than a starting one (more essence, charms, etc). The righteous power surge fades down after that scene, meaning they have to work back up to that wondrous level if they want to a taste of that sheer power again.

Fearan
2011-03-06, 05:56 AM
What exactly is the Overdrive system? Where I can read about it?

Sanguine
2011-03-06, 06:01 AM
What exactly is the Overdrive system? Where I can read about it?

Scroll of Errata.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-06, 06:39 AM
I've always taken the idea that, for that one glorious scene, a new Celestial Exalt is a hell of a lot more powerful than a starting one (more essence, charms, etc). The righteous power surge fades down after that scene, meaning they have to work back up to that wondrous level if they want to a taste of that sheer power again.Yeah, but the person I was quoting was asking for the printed mechanical effects, or the closest thing to them - I'm sure people have homebrewed their own Exaltation crunch; I was just providing an answer to Mr. Bookworm.

Jokasti
2011-03-06, 11:11 AM
Well, arguably, an NPC stops being an extra when they start up with the heroics thing.

Heh, Lunar social experiment idea: A Lunar, hearing of the return of the Solars, attempts to maximize the chances of Solars exalting in his pet kingdom by doing everything he can to drive each and every one of the mortals in his kingdom to their limits - and beyond - while trying not to kill them outright.

I'm not sure if Lunars are privy to the nature of Solar Exaltation.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-06, 11:12 AM
I'm not sure if Lunars are privy to the nature of Solar Exaltation.

If they are members of the Pact, they can likely learn in a matter of moments after their tattooing about the truth of Anathema.

Jokasti
2011-03-06, 11:57 AM
If they are members of the Pact, they can likely learn in a matter of moments after their tattooing about the truth of Anathema.

The truth yes, but I don't think one will think, "If they Exalt by being awesome, I'll have an awesome society that will at least have some Solars."

Lochar
2011-03-06, 12:30 PM
I dunno. A Golden Widow might come up with the idea...

Teln
2011-03-06, 01:15 PM
And there is a precedent for this. The Solar Deliberative in the First Age tried the exact same thing with the...Archipelago of Xur, I think it was called? Anyways, they took a chain of islands, stocked them with gunzosha commandos, and had them grind each other to bloody pulps in order to study the criteria for Solar Exaltation.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-06, 01:18 PM
And there is a precedent for this. The Solar Deliberative in the First Age tried the exact same thing with the...Archipelago of Xur, I think it was called? Anyways, they took a chain of islands, stocked them with gunzosha commandos, and had them grind each other to bloody pulps in order to study the criteria for Solar Exaltation.

Not only gunzosha commandos, but Tiger Warriors of all stripes.

Indon
2011-03-06, 09:36 PM
And to elaborate on that idea, 'cause I'm liking it and may well throw it into a game, it could be that the Lunar is trying to exalt a _specific_ Solar (probably their mate), who is known to have exalted under a specific type of heroism multiple times over the ages.

For instance, if it's standing against oppression that does the trick, perhaps the Lunar set up the area as under control of the literal God of Tyranny, who considering Creation is no doubt a pretty powerful fellow - and tries to have as many people as possible in the nation involved in fighting the cold war against said deity.

But the joke's on the Lunar, because there's a 50% chance that Solar won't ever show up no matter how well they pull off the trick because the Solar's exaltation is an Abyssal/Infernal.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-06, 11:19 PM
Or they could show up and be completely unlike what the Lunar was expecting. Say, a GSP who Exalts trying and failing to overthrow tyranny, gets whisked off to Malfeas, and promptly gets bludgeoned into being a properly tyrannical Slayer Caste.

Also, you know when there are multiple contradictory bits of fluff possible, and they're both so good that you can't choose between them? Because (RotSE spoilers)
I love Kejak being blindsided during the Lotus Massacre and the Usurpation parallelism. But I just read this (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=12350948&postcount=181), and I mean... it's just so...

"This has all been prepared and planned for. We practiced for weeks to make our deaths look pathetic and convincing."

It just makes me want to punch something and yell **** YEAH, SIDEREALS!

EDIT: Also, a question. Does anyone know if the Emerald Mother plays the Games of Divinity with the Incarnae?

horngeek
2011-03-06, 11:46 PM
HOLY ****.

That is awesome. Unfortunately, contradicts canon (GSPs are, if I remember, outside of Fate) but the ST can ignore canon and kick reason to the curb! WHO THE HELL-

Ahem. In any case, I approve.

Indon
2011-03-07, 12:02 AM
EDIT: Also, a question. Does anyone know if the Emerald Mother plays the Games of Divinity with the Incarnae?

By "Emerald Mother"... do you mean Gaia?

If I recall, Gaia's primary soul is currently not in Creation, but is instead wandering the Wyld, pursuing her own personal mandate to change and grow. Her return is possible, finding her in the Wyld is possible, but she's all kinds of Storyteller material as far as I know.

Edit: Also, Surly, awesome possibility there.

Tavar
2011-03-07, 12:16 AM
Well, her...jouten? form is in creation, getting lapdances from Luna. And she does play the games, but since she's a primordial they aren't as addictive.

Guancyto
2011-03-07, 12:28 AM
HOLY ****.

That is awesome. Unfortunately, contradicts canon (GSPs are, if I remember, outside of Fate) but the ST can ignore canon and kick reason to the curb! WHO THE HELL-

Ahem. In any case, I approve.

They are (as are the Yozi), but. The sample Sidereal 'this is your mission' missive gives percentages on the likelihood of Lunar, Demon, etc. involvement in whatever task they're undertaking. Even when they can't get a fix on a particular strand in the Loom, they can look at the interactions surrounding them to try and extrapolate their effects.

Failing that, they can find out what they need to with good old-fashioned legwork and intelligence and the (anathema to a lot of Sidereals) acknowledgment that not everything important is inside Fate.

Really, managing all of that without their greatest weapon makes it even more awesome. :smallcool:

Jokasti
2011-03-07, 01:14 AM
Re Carjack: I can and indeed do dig it.
Re Gaia: Most of her attention is in the Wyld, looking for the Shining Answer.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-07, 04:34 AM
Well, her...jouten? form is in creation, getting lapdances from Luna. And she does play the games, but since she's a primordial they aren't as addictive.

Her humaniform jouten, to be precise. Her other jouten, and all her souls except the Elemental Dragons are in the Wyld.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-07, 06:02 AM
Question: if I wanted to optimize pure sexy power (as in, to create an Exalted character as hot as Lix Lorn), what would be the best method to becoming as close to Sex Incarnate as possible?

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 06:05 AM
Question: if I wanted to optimize pure sexy power (as in, to create an Exalted character as hot as Lix Lorn), what would be the best method to becoming as close to Sex Incarnate as possible?

Two Questions.

Are Elder Essence Levels viable?

Does it have to be an Exalt?

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-07, 06:07 AM
Two Questions.

Are Elder Essence Levels viable?

Does it have to be an Exalt?

1. I dunno, as I know practically nothing about Exalted.

2. Yes. I'm evil like that.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-07, 06:09 AM
I'm telling Mrs. Gareth. :smalltongue:

There are a few options. The first is the most commonly accepted one known as the Pretty Kitty build (previously limited to Lunars, but Alchemicals get a slice of that pie or three). Basically, increase your Appearance to ridiculous levels through artifacts and Charms, and get a Charm that removes the Appearance penalty / bonus cap, making most people silly putty in your hands. There is a Charm in the Ink Monkeys that gives Solars and Abyssals a cheap defense against this tactic, however.

The second is to play a Chosen of Serenity with Performance and Socialize up the wazoo. Commonly accepted as the bilateral rapist's path, since Sidereal Charms are like that. One of them allows you to reduce someone's Appearance to 1, which means that at Appearance 2, you are still sexier than them.

The third path is the Solar / Abyssal path, which is not as easy in the sex department, but much more versatile, and involves getting the right Presence, Performance and Socialize Charms.

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 06:21 AM
1. I dunno, as I know practically nothing about Exalted.

2. Yes. I'm evil like that.

My personal suggestion.

A Lunar Exalt with a base appearance of at least 3 an Appearance Excellency of some variety, a Stone of Inhuman Beauty, a Cup Grace and the Raksha Charm Heart-Cutting Style. Also if your ST rules it applies after the Stone of Inhuman Beauty I would also add, a Sword Grace and the Charisma and Appearance version of Glorious Hero Form.

Edit: This is only my personal suggestion because you limited me to Exalts. In my opinion Lix is a noble Raksha of one of the Entertainer Castes not sure which. Also I limited my self to pre-Elder Essence.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-07, 06:27 AM
My personal suggestion.

A Lunar Exalt with a base appearance of at least 3 an Appearance Excellency of some variety, a Stone of Inhuman Beauty, a Cup Grace and the Raksha Charm Heart-Cutting Style. Also if your ST rules it applies after the Stone of Inhuman Beauty I would also add, a Sword Grace and the Charisma and Appearance version of Glorious Hero Form.

Rather than the hearthstone, you can get an infinite resplendence amulet. Sure, it's obviously supernatural, but so is the hearthstone's beauty, and it has no other benefits (well, save for the mote regeneration), and the amulet doesn't cap at 7.

On top of that, get a drop of Sun's Peak to raise your Appearance to 10 (in fact, carry an entire vial, just in case it gets countered) and orichalcum wings of the raptor, at which point you have an Appearance of 17. Excellencies can, with some expense, raise it to 34+, depending on your Essence and whether you have Irresistible Silver Spirit.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-07, 06:29 AM
raise it to 34+

...What? Holy crap. What would such a transcendently appealing being even look like?

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-07, 06:30 AM
...What? Holy crap. What would such a transcendently appealing being even look like?

Transcendentally, and I have no idea. Most of it comes from artifacts and Charms, however, so it is basically magic telling you to perceive that person as pretty, no matter how he actually looks like.

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 06:33 AM
Rather than the hearthstone, you can get an infinite resplendence amulet. Sure, it's obviously supernatural, but so is the hearthstone's beauty, and it has no other benefits (well, save for the mote regeneration), and the amulet doesn't cap at 7.

On top of that, get a drop of Sun's Peak to raise your Appearance to 10 (in fact, carry an entire vial, just in case it gets countered) and orichalcum wings of the raptor, at which point you have an Appearance of 17. Excellencies can, with some expense, raise it to 34+, depending on your Essence and whether you have Irresistible Silver Spirit.

Damn!


...What? Holy crap. What would such a transcendently appealing being even look like?

I believe the oft overused "indescribably beautiful" is appropriate.

Jokasti
2011-03-07, 08:47 AM
So indescribable that words just

Tael
2011-03-07, 09:01 AM
It probably actually wouldn't be that useful, as anyone who saw your character would probably drop everything they're doing and immediately start dry-humping said character. Or spend a point of willpower.

On another note, to seems to me that flurries are normally a really bad idea. Excluding stuff where you really need it, like dashing, flurries massively lower your attack and defense. I understand that essence pings can be deadly, but how do you ensure that you hit at all?

Also, how would you feel about a houserule along the lines of "When wielding two weapons, offhand attacks do not add to extra actions penalties in a flurry"?
(i.e. you flurry 4 attacks while TWF at -4, -4, -5, -5 instead of -4, -5, -6, -7)

Revlid
2011-03-07, 09:01 AM
Man, how did it take me so long to find this thread?

Jokasti
2011-03-07, 09:10 AM
Dodge charms.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 09:17 AM
...What? Holy crap. What would such a transcendently appealing being even look like?
Me, apparently. :smallbiggrin:

Besides. I'm not an exalt, I'm a primordial. :smallwink:

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 09:22 AM
Me, apparently. :smallbiggrin:

Besides. I'm not an exalt, I'm a primordial. :smallwink:

You say that like it's better.:smallconfused:

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 09:31 AM
Depends on the primordial. :3

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 09:43 AM
Depends on the primordial. :3

No it really doesn't. Some are less inferior then others, Autobot especially, but the Exalted are superior to the Primordials. It's what they were designed to be.

Jokasti
2011-03-07, 09:51 AM
Not individually...

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 09:59 AM
Not individually...

That would depend on the exact definition of individual. For instance all of a Primordials Jouten and it's entire Soul Hierarchy could be said to be a single individual, which is hardly a fair comparison. Especially if the Exalt in question is not Solar tier.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 10:10 AM
Yes, but Primordial-Lix sided with the gods/exalted. :smalltongue:
(I'm not likely to actually stat this out, cause it's leaning towards too silly)

Jokasti
2011-03-07, 10:32 AM
That would depend on the exact definition of individual. For instance all of a Primordials Jouten and it's entire Soul Hierarchy could be said to be a single individual, which is hardly a fair comparison. Especially if the Exalt in question is not Solar tier.

It's hardly a fair comparison because the entirety of a Primordial is better than the entirety of an Exalt.

Tavar
2011-03-07, 10:53 AM
On another note, to seems to me that flurries are normally a really bad idea. Excluding stuff where you really need it, like dashing, flurries massively lower your attack and defense. I understand that essence pings can be deadly, but how do you ensure that you hit at all?

Also, how would you feel about a houserule along the lines of "When wielding two weapons, offhand attacks do not add to extra actions penalties in a flurry"?
(i.e. you flurry 4 attacks while TWF at -4, -4, -5, -5 instead of -4, -5, -6, -7)
There are charms that can help with that. For instance, in the Solar defensive melee tree, there's a charm that reduced DV penalties of all actions by 1, minimum of 0. And other charms can either boost your dice pool directly(excellencies) or reduce the flurry penalties. And remember onslaught penalties. They can rack up quickly.

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 10:54 AM
It's hardly a fair comparison because the entirety of a Primordial is better than the entirety of an Exalt.

No it's hardly fair because of how overpowered Surprise attacks are.

Tael
2011-03-07, 11:51 AM
There are charms that can help with that. For instance, in the Solar defensive melee tree, there's a charm that reduced DV penalties of all actions by 1, minimum of 0. And other charms can either boost your dice pool directly(excellencies) or reduce the flurry penalties. And remember onslaught penalties. They can rack up quickly.

Would the two weapon fighting rules be too much then? Right now it seems like there is no reason other than style to wield paired weapons, and most of the time you actually have to pay extra/buy another weapon if you want to dual wield.

Tavar
2011-03-07, 12:07 PM
Charms can minimize the penalties, as I said. Also, you can wield, say, as strong one handed weapon that has a bad defense rating, and one that has a good defense rating, thus helping your DV's.

Plus, if you wield two weapons, each one's rate is separate. So if you do have some way to mitigate the penalties, it can be a very, very good way to pierce DV's(assuming charms/coordinated attacks).

So, yeah, I'd have to say that those rules are a bit much.

Tael
2011-03-07, 12:33 PM
Charms can minimize the penalties, as I said. Also, you can wield, say, as strong one handed weapon that has a bad defense rating, and one that has a good defense rating, thus helping your DV's.

Plus, if you wield two weapons, each one's rate is separate. So if you do have some way to mitigate the penalties, it can be a very, very good way to pierce DV's(assuming charms/coordinated attacks).

So, yeah, I'd have to say that those rules are a bit much.

What about dual wielding short daiklaves? Or any other weapon like hook swords which are always pared?

And are there really many situations in which you want to make more than 3 attacks in a flurry? Where you couldn't just use an extra action charm?

It just seems to me that TWF needs something to make it worthwhile. Are there any other alterations that would be more reasonable?

Kyeudo
2011-03-07, 12:35 PM
I think Exalted has a good balance with its two-weapon fighting rules. It doesn't make two weapon styles overpowered and it isn't much worse than sword and board or two-handed weapons. Sure, there's nothing really that special about wielding two weapons, but why should there be?

Tael
2011-03-07, 12:39 PM
I think Exalted has a good balance with its two-weapon fighting rules. It doesn't make two weapon styles overpowered and it isn't much worse than sword and board or two-handed weapons. Sure, there's nothing really that special about wielding two weapons, but why should there be?

How is it not much worse than S&B or two handed? More expensive one or two handed weapons are almost universally better than getting two paired weapons, and S&B provides much better defense unless you are using crazy Wood Dragon's Claw or Glorious Solar Saber defense bonuses.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-07, 12:56 PM
Question: if I wanted to optimize pure sexy power (as in, to create an Exalted character as hot as Lix Lorn), what would be the best method to becoming as close to Sex Incarnate as possible?

On Lunars: You'll need a fair number of Knacks. Two-Faced Hero is recommended.

On Alchemicals: It is mandatory to take Hyperdextrous Tentacle Apparatus and Thousandfold Courtesan Calculations.

On Bluesids: Go to Resplendencies. Go to The Lovers. Go to Celestial Bliss Trick. Yes, you're taking that. You might also take the one that makes it impossible to find you because you're at parties and/or having sex for all but 7 hours a week.


...What? Holy crap. What would such a transcendently appealing being even look like?

Hard to say. Everyone passes out grinning after the merest glance at such a person, and can't describe more than one physical feature after waking up.

Also, rpg.net has periodic "Build an Exalted character with as much innuendo as possible" contests, though I don't have time to find any of them right now; I think they tag them with "Sexalted." They might have some good inspiration material.

EDIT: Actually, they're the first thing that came up after googling "site:foum.rpg.net Exalted character creation contest." Good Lord. Anyway, here, (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=190702) here, (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=259647&page=5) and here. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=322763)

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 01:10 PM
What about dual wielding short daiklaves? Or any other weapon like hook swords which are always pared?

And are there really many situations in which you want to make more than 3 attacks in a flurry? Where you couldn't just use an extra action charm?

It just seems to me that TWF needs something to make it worthwhile. Are there any other alterations that would be more reasonable?
I have an alchemical who makes six attacks in a flurry. The WORST is about a nine dice attack pool.

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 01:12 PM
How is it not much worse than S&B or two handed? More expensive one or two handed weapons are almost universally better than getting two paired weapons, and S&B provides much better defense unless you are using crazy Wood Dragon's Claw or Glorious Solar Saber defense bonuses.

Well if they're more expensive they should be better.

Jokasti
2011-03-07, 01:15 PM
I believe the term is Exxxalted.

Tael
2011-03-07, 02:06 PM
Well if they're more expensive they should be better.

Kind of exactly my point. If you are dual wielding, your weapon's will not be as good compared to if you weren't.


I have an alchemical who makes six attacks in a flurry. The WORST is about a nine dice attack pool.

Your point? Even if your base dice pool is 20, I don't see why you are better off flurrying so many attacks.

Let's take an example with say, DV 8.

1st attack: 14 vs 8 - 26.66%
2nd : 13 vs 7 - 32.67%
3rd: 12 vs 6 - 39.75%
4th: 47.95%
5th: 57.19%
6th: 67.25%

You're probably going to hit 2-3 attacks, but there's no way they'll be more than ping unless you are spending craploads of motes, and your defense will be abysmal afterward.

Or you could wield a two handed weapon with piercing/overpowering/both
and flurry for 3 attacks, getting:

1st attack: 48.37%
2nd: 55.72%
3rd: 63.47%

Netting you 1-2 attacks, but these attacks have a far greater chance of beating soak (extra damage from weapon + piercing), or will still do more because of overpowering.
Plus your defense will still be decent and you can afford to spend more motes boosting your attacks.

Reynard
2011-03-07, 02:07 PM
What about dual wielding short daiklaves? Or any other weapon like hook swords which are always pared?

And are there really many situations in which you want to make more than 3 attacks in a flurry? Where you couldn't just use an extra action charm?

It just seems to me that TWF needs something to make it worthwhile. Are there any other alterations that would be more reasonable?

I made charms. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10044020&postcount=1)

Tael
2011-03-07, 02:23 PM
I made charms. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10044020&postcount=1)

Now that is exactly what I wanted to see. Thank you good sir.

golentan
2011-03-07, 03:03 PM
For teh supersexy exalt, I recommend an alchemical with base appearance 5, 4 augmentation (appearance) installed 3 times (appearance 8), Thousandfold Courtesan Calculations with Ultimate Ardor upgrade, Pheromone regulation systems, an adamant trinket of dignified conduct (appearance 10), Orihalcum Wings of the Raptor (appearance 13), Orihalcum infinite resplendency amulet (appearance 17) with an Elemental Blessing of Crystal (appearance 18), Fifth appearance augmentation with submodule (doubles appearance), and take additional appearance excellencies and social-fu charms to taste. Now we're on the same playing field as that wussy lunar of Rose's, except we can't be dropped by countermagic (well we can, but only to 34 from 36), our seduction attempts require 2 wp to ignore and are usually unnatural mental influence, and we're explicitly superhumanly skilled lovers. By essence 10, we've added 7 more to appearance and are the sexiest city of all time. Including Vegas and Amsterdam. :smalltongue:

Jokasti
2011-03-07, 03:40 PM
I think I'm going to start my CYOA back up. Need more time at my dads to throw them out with any sort of regularity.

Indon
2011-03-07, 04:05 PM
No it really doesn't. Some are less inferior then others, Autobot especially, but the Exalted are superior to the Primordials. It's what they were designed to be.

Autochthon's a special case, I'd say, because he's full of Exalts, thus getting the best of both worlds.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 05:28 PM
Your point? Even if your base dice pool is 20, I don't see why you are better off flurrying so many attacks.

Let's take an example with say, DV 8.

1st attack: 14 vs 8 - 26.66%
2nd : 13 vs 7 - 32.67%
3rd: 12 vs 6 - 39.75%
4th: 47.95%
5th: 57.19%
6th: 67.25%

You're probably going to hit 2-3 attacks, but there's no way they'll be more than ping unless you are spending craploads of motes, and your defense will be abysmal afterward.

Or you could wield a two handed weapon with piercing/overpowering/both
and flurry for 3 attacks, getting:

1st attack: 48.37%
2nd: 55.72%
3rd: 63.47%

Netting you 1-2 attacks, but these attacks have a far greater chance of beating soak (extra damage from weapon + piercing), or will still do more because of overpowering.
Plus your defense will still be decent and you can afford to spend more motes boosting your attacks.
My main reason is this: I can wield a weapon of all six magical weapons simultaneously.

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 05:33 PM
My main reason is this: I can wield a weapon of all six magical materials simultaneously.

Fixed that for you. I think.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-07, 05:44 PM
Open-ended-ish question. What's everyone's favorite explanation for why the Lunars don't seem to have done much since the Usurpation?

I've heard suggestions that:
a) They started the Thousand-Streams River just to get the Threshold stable enough that they wouldn't have to run around stopping Raksha attacks all the time, which would free up time to finally hunt down all the Chimeras, which would allow them to finally have 300 reasonably organized Lunars together to go overthrow the Realm. Due to Deathlords, abortive Reclamation attempts, Sidereal interference, etc., it's been much more of a pain than they expected.

b) Actually, they've thoroughly infiltrated the Realm. They haven't tried to overthrow it because they have enough control; they can boot up the Sword of Creation anytime they want. And of course, Regent Fokuf is more than meets the eye. But if Fokuf's a Lunar, then why has no one ever noticed his tattoos? Simple. He was around before they had moonsilver tattoos.

c) They've been busy with other threats to Creation, not just raksha. A lot of them fled to Malfeas or the Underworld as well as to the edges of Creation, and they've been happily wrecking Reclamation plans, turning the Deathlords against each other, and so on ever since. I like this because it also explains why the Deathlords are such failures without "They're just that incompetent."

d) The Elders made a deal with the Sidereals once they reconciled themselves to the Usurpation, essentially "You protect Creation from your end, we protect it from our end." Most young Exalts of either group don't know about it, which is good. Fighting keeps them strong.

My favorite, though, is:
e) There's actually been a long-running Sidereal-Lunar cold war. It's not like a typical mortal or Terrestrial historian is going to see through Resplendent Destinies or shapeshifting. And if a mortal *did* figure out that large chunks of history must have happened due to Anathema plotting behind the scenes, he's going to become a No Moon, Chosen of Secrets, Twilight, or Daybreak right quick. So the knowledge stays contained.
The Lunar numerical advantage is offset by not having Dragonblood minions and regularly having to run home to kick the Raksha back out, and the other factors come to a wash. Usually it's plotting in the shadows behind false identities, midnight fist-vs-claw assassination attempts in obscure corners of Creation, etc. But crowds of reality-warping martial artists chasing giant murderbeasts through the streets of Yu-Shan until said murderbeasts escape into the Bureau of Nature for diplomatic immunity is not unheard of.

Reynard
2011-03-07, 05:59 PM
They're NPCs and thus less effective and driven. Otherwise they'd already have done it.

----

Challenge: Make an Essence 6 charm that is both worth Essence 6 and not completely broken.

Is this possible? I don't think it is.

Indon
2011-03-07, 06:53 PM
Open-ended-ish question. What's everyone's favorite explanation for why the Lunars don't seem to have done much since the Usurpation?

During the Shogunate, the Sidereals had way too much power focused in the Realm for the Lunars to be able to go too far in.

Shortly after the Contagion, the Lunars had to recover from taking the brunt of the invasion.

Later during the Scarlet Empress' reign, the major Thousand Streams projects started to pick up.

It seems to me that they've been doing quite a bit, just not in places central to the Exalted universe.

Xefas
2011-03-07, 09:00 PM
Challenge: Make an Essence 6 charm that is both worth Essence 6 and not completely broken.

Is this possible? I don't think it is.

Supernal Fisherman Spirit
Cost: 3m; Mins: Survival 1, Essence 6; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Food-Gathering Exercise

This charm supplements a dramatic action to go on a fishing trip. Such is the Lawgivers' mastery of the world that they may accomplish (Essence x 10) hours of catching fish, drinking beer, telling bigoted jokes, and complaining about joint pain, in the span of only 60 long ticks.

This is incredibly disturbing to look upon, and causes (Essence x 2)B damage to mortals that witness it.

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 09:10 PM
Supernal Fisherman Spirit
Cost: 3m; Mins: Survival 1, Essence 6; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Food-Gathering Exercise

This charm supplements a dramatic action to go on a fishing trip. Such is the Lawgivers' mastery of the world that they may accomplish (Essence x 10) hours of catching fish, drinking beer, telling bigoted jokes, and complaining about joint pain, in the span of only 60 long ticks.

This is incredibly disturbing to look upon, and causes (Essence x 2)B damage to mortals that witness it.

Is it dice or levels of bashing damage? And does soak apply? I wouldn't thin so but you don't make any mention of it being unsoakable.

It probably says something about either me or the system that I considered this a perfectly valid Homebrew Charm. If in need of some clarification.

Xefas
2011-03-07, 09:14 PM
Is it dice or levels of bashing damage? And does soak apply? I wouldn't thin so but you don't make any mention of it being unsoakable.

It probably says something about either me or the system that I considered this a perfectly valid Homebrew Charm. If in need of some clarification.

Right, clarified a bit:
Supernal Fisherman Spirit
Cost: 3m; Mins: Survival 1, Essence 6; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Food-Gathering Exercise

This charm supplements a dramatic action to go on a fishing trip. Such is the Lawgivers' mastery of the world that they may accomplish (Essence x 10) hours of catching fish, drinking beer, telling bigoted jokes, and complaining about joint pain, in the span of only 60 long ticks.

This is incredibly disturbing to look upon, and causes (Essence x 2)B dice of damage to mortals that witness it, which cannot be soaked with armor.And of course it's perfectly valid. It's worth Essence 6 because you can put down mortal uprisings by broadcasting videos of your fishing trip/vacation (which is a priceless feeling). And it's not broken. Fits the criteria perfectly!

Sanguine
2011-03-07, 09:18 PM
Right, clarified a bit:
Supernal Fisherman Spirit
Cost: 3m; Mins: Survival 1, Essence 6; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Food-Gathering Exercise

This charm supplements a dramatic action to go on a fishing trip. Such is the Lawgivers' mastery of the world that they may accomplish (Essence x 10) hours of catching fish, drinking beer, telling bigoted jokes, and complaining about joint pain, in the span of only 60 long ticks.

This is incredibly disturbing to look upon, and causes (Essence x 2)B dice of damage to mortals that witness it, which cannot be soaked with armor.And of course it's perfectly valid. It's worth Essence 6 because you can put down mortal uprisings by broadcasting videos of your fishing trip/vacation (which is a priceless feeling). And it's not broken. Fits the criteria perfectly!

What I meant by Valid is I would allow it in a game I ran. Which is not something I can say about all canon material. I'm looking at you Primoridal Principle Emulation.:smallannoyed:

tonberrian
2011-03-07, 09:35 PM
What I meant by Valid is I would allow it in a game I ran. Which is not something I can say about all canon material. I'm looking at you Primoridal Principle Emulation.:smallannoyed:

What's wrong with PPE?

Mr.Bookworm
2011-03-07, 09:51 PM
What's wrong with PPE?

In my opinion? It's stupidly out of theme for Solars, and just adds fuel to the fire of the rather dumb "Solars can do everything ever" idea. That is to say, Solars can do (almost) everything ever with proper time, but the idea that they can do everything ever just by learning a Charm is dumb.

You could also probably use it to break the game in about twelve dozen different ways, but that's not unusual in Exalted.

tonberrian
2011-03-07, 09:57 PM
I still don't see what's so bad about PPE when the Eclipse anima effect exists.

Lochar
2011-03-07, 09:59 PM
Everything under the Sun(Pun intended) emulates the Eclipse anima. There is little good in playing an Eclipse when you have that and Power from Darkness to play with.

Diplomatic Immunity? Pshaw, you can kill 99% of the stuff that you have immunity against, and the other 1% requires some forethought before you kill it.

Xefas
2011-03-07, 10:01 PM
I still don't see what's so bad about PPE when the Eclipse anima effect exists.

This assumes that the Eclipse anime effect should exist.

tonberrian
2011-03-07, 10:12 PM
Everything under the Sun

Is this a charm or are you playing with words?


This assumes that the Eclipse anime effect should exist.

I never said I was in support of the Eclipse effect. I just think that, if one decides that PPE is antithematic, then they should consider the root ability (the Eclipse effect) both antithematic and more important, since it is a core effect. If you would take a D&D example, it's like calling the Draconic Polymorph spell (transforms into a creature with enhanced stats thanks to draconic influence, in a splatbook) broken without considering the basic Polymorph (core, changes into a different creature - generally, the brokenness comes from the creature's special abilities, not its stats).

Mr.Bookworm
2011-03-07, 10:17 PM
This assumes that the Eclipse anime effect should exist.

Yeah, that.

I sort of like the stated idea of the Eclipse caste anima generalist effect, but I dislike the implementation.

But even if we're assuming that the Eclipse anima works as stands, do the Eclipses really need another kick in the balls? They're already the Chick of the Solars, there's no need to make it worse.


Diplomatic Immunity? Pshaw, you can kill 99% of the stuff that you have immunity against, and the other 1% requires some forethought before you kill it.

...Given that Diplomatic Immunity applies when you're waltzing into the home turf of the creatures in question, there's a good chance you would be dead if you didn't have that immunity. You can kill one raksha. You can't kill a thousand.

Kyeudo
2011-03-07, 10:22 PM
You can kill one raksha. You can't kill a thousand.

Says who? My Dawn Caste would like to say otherwise.

Lochar
2011-03-07, 10:24 PM
I'll point out the fact that there was a Solar that went into Malfeas just to wage continuous war. And did so for centuries, IIRC.

The Fae are even easier. Walk in there with built up Wyld Shaping, and drop Creation on them.

I don't think they have Underworld Immunity, which is probably just about the only thing that would be worth it, since a Solar can't respire essence in there.

Kyeudo
2011-03-07, 10:43 PM
Yeah, the dead seem to be the only hole in the Eclipse Immunity oaths and yet the most glaring one.

Tavar
2011-03-07, 10:55 PM
Well, there wasn't and organized force down there to deal with, except the Neverborn, and they're...different.

As for fey, well, it's been stated that Pre-Crusade Fey were much stronger, and they are those...I-things. The same kind of beings that Balor and that guy who almost beat the Unconquered Sun was.

Lochar
2011-03-07, 10:56 PM
It's kinda dumb, because the Underworld was created by the deaths of the Primordials. If anyone could be bound, it would be dead enemies.

*shrug*

But then it completely hamstrings the Deathlords, as they are bound against the Eclipse.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-07, 11:24 PM
Hmm... and here I thought the fluff in other books supported them having diplomatic immunity in the Underworld as well... yet strangely, the closest the Core really gets to that is where it says, "the spirit world," which is pretty vague. :smallconfused:

Lochar
2011-03-07, 11:28 PM
Nope. Fluff from Malfeas and GWM both state how the Eclipse got immunity. Both were through oaths ripped from the throats of the governing entities.

Since the Neverborn sleep and as we've seen waking them up is a fairly bad idea, no oath from the governing beings of the Underworld have ever been made.

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-08, 01:42 AM
Since the Neverborn sleep and as we've seen waking them up is a fairly bad idea, no oath from the governing beings of the Underworld have ever been made.Err, we did wake them up, at least five of them. And slapped them in the face until they gave us Necromancy. Remember? :smallconfused: That's explicitly how we got it.

And that's kinda how they're aware of everything now, and trying to end Creation. A decent trade, I suppose. :smallamused:

meschlum
2011-03-08, 02:04 AM
Open-ended-ish question. What's everyone's favorite explanation for why the Lunars don't seem to have done much since the Usurpation?

Mine is that they ran into the following Oneiromancy before the Usurpation. Over, and over, and over. And each time they did, and mentioned the fact to the Solars, Sidereals, and Dragon Bloods they worked with, they were promptly ignored. Repeatedly.

So when all those idiots got themselves killed and they were free to do as they wished, the Lunars decided it was time to go into the Deep Wyld and... explain... a few things to the (insert chain of shapechanging expletives here) who created it.

They're still looking.

The Mockery of Definition

This spell is one of the great works of the Raksha art, forged when they learned that Creation's structure tied one meaning to each word, rather than all of them. This was, of course, utterly false - and so the Mockery was made.

When the spell is activated, it wraps itself around an immense portion of Creation, and insinuates itself within each Creation-Born there. Pouring vast amounts of Wyld energy into its victims, it imposes the most drastic of all changes upon them: none at all.

By the power of this Oneiromancy, one quarter of all Creation-Born in its reach become Tyrant Lizards - and are unchanged. One quarter become jellyfish - and their souls, minds, and bodies are untouched. One quarter are transmuted into eagles - and are unaltered. The last quarter is not affected at all. Every other day, old forms are abandoned and new ones assigned at random, to no effect.

Despite this total lack of results, the realms held in the Mockery's grip a eerie places filled with wonder, containing man-sized Tyrant Lizards with blunt teeth and opposable thumbs, jellyfish that drown in water and walk on their two legs, and eagles that neither fly nor hatch eggs, but instead use tools and clothing.

To anyone but a Lunar, this is perfectly normal. To most Lunars, it is maddeningly wrong, and Not Once has a single other Exalt listened. Instead, they've set forth to hunt jellyfish while riding eagles and using Tyrant Lizards for bait.

They deserve whatever they got, but right now, the Lunars have some Fair Folk to hunt down and inflict some extreme chastisement upon. Or they might make more.

5-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Living Kingdom: huge area of effect
Bestial Transformation (Tyrant Lizard): adds the Mute mutation, preventing those transformed from speaking to Tyrant Lizards. Also adds a few Delusions, that any sound coming from animals are animal sounds. Thus, no real effect on the transformed target.
Bestial Transformation (Jellyfish): see above.
Bestial Transformation (Eagle): see above.
Mad God Mien: because if Countermagic did something, people might suspect there was something going on.

How does it work? Anyone with Survival less than 4 cannot realize that the entirely unchanged people in the spell's area of effect are actually people rather than the beasts they've been 'turned' into. Anyone who has been 'transformed' remains unaware that others are transformed too, as they can't communicate.

Be honest. When creating a non-Lunar character, have you ever spent more than the strict minimum on Survival?



For the Appearance gig, Fair Folk manage reasonably well too. Without artifacts, they can reach 8 at character creation (Glorious Hero Form), and temporarily boost themselves to 9 via Soul Consuming Hunger. No ways to double that, though - but Charms for uncapping the Appearance MDV modifier, making people love them in a single scene of interaction, and turning hatred into love all exist. Only the last one can be resisted (3 wp to resist, easily boosted to 4 with Beguilement), so it's an option.

Plus, Assumption of Dreams and Passion helps, as does Assumption of Bestial Form for extra tentacles. Or not.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-08, 03:44 AM
Yeah, that.

I sort of like the stated idea of the Eclipse caste anima generalist effect, but I dislike the implementation.

But even if we're assuming that the Eclipse anima works as stands, do the Eclipses really need another kick in the balls? They're already the Chick of the Solars, there's no need to make it worse.
I was always thinking of some kind of generalist system. I'd allow something like this:
All Celestial Exalted may take charms from other creatures, provided they have
A: A tutor
B: Meet all requirements
C: Have an Essence rating at least five higher than the minimum required for the charm.

For Terrestrial Exalted, C says six instead of five.
For Eclipses and analoguges, it instead says three.

This way, Eclipses do have an advantage, but they don't (yes, I'm going to make this pun) eclipse everyone else at higher exp.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-08, 06:11 AM
Nope. Fluff from Malfeas and GWM both state how the Eclipse got immunity. Both were through oaths ripped from the throats of the governing entities.

Since the Neverborn sleep and as we've seen waking them up is a fairly bad idea, no oath from the governing beings of the Underworld have ever been made.

The Underworld book states that Eclipse immunity oaths still apply there, and ghosts are spirits. It is weirder that it applies in the Wyld, because raksha emphatically are not spirits.

Drascin
2011-03-08, 06:25 AM
Well, there wasn't and organized force down there to deal with, except the Neverborn, and they're...different.

As for fey, well, it's been stated that Pre-Crusade Fey were much stronger, and they are those...I-things. The same kind of beings that Balor and that guy who almost beat the Unconquered Sun was.

The word you're searching for is Ishvara :smallsmile:. And yes, we could do with more detail on more Ishvara like Balor and Laashe were.

Sanguine
2011-03-08, 07:01 AM
The Underworld book states that Eclipse immunity oaths still apply there, and ghosts are spirits. It is weirder that it applies in the Wyld, because raksha emphatically are not spirits.

It's not weird at all totally separate oaths; it even makes a point of separating them in the caste description, it does the same with demons to for some reason. In my personal Creation there are a handful(by Raksha standards) of Unshaped who have never interacted with Creation at all and are thus free from such oaths however. So on Eclipse Caste adventuring around in Pure Chaos isn't necessarily a smart thing.

Indon
2011-03-08, 01:22 PM
Nope. Fluff from Malfeas and GWM both state how the Eclipse got immunity. Both were through oaths ripped from the throats of the governing entities.

The Eclipse should have protective oaths regarding Stygia, which was the government of the underworld during the First Age.

Lochar
2011-03-08, 01:23 PM
Yeah, I missed those. Oops. :P

Indon
2011-03-08, 01:33 PM
Yeah, I missed those. Oops. :P

Well, I don't know if it's written out anywhere, but the situation can be worked out logically.

Stygia was the power in the underworld in the first age, and so Stygian authorities are bound by the appropriate Eclipse oaths.

Since then, the Deathlords have largely displaced Stygia's authority, so the Eclipse caste now only benefit in the areas still under Stygia's control - so more or less, the city of Stygia itself.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-08, 04:49 PM
Thanks.

Also, you know Vermillion Clouds of Sunset Style, the SMA that the sun knows? I've got an outline for a homebrew. Feedback on ideas, and improvements to the Sutra because it's pretty bad, would be appreciated.

The Student's Sutra of Loyalty: Once, there was a bronze-skinned maiden...
Rising in the East Method
who woke up late.
Like the sun rising on a night battle, you may be slow to approach but always welcome and inspiring when you arrive. You can choose to take your first action at tick 6 instead of rolling your Join Battle pool as normal. If you do so, roll your Join Battle pool at tick 6; all of your allies who can see you gain 1 wp and as many motes as you rolled successes.

Blazing Palpebra Atemi
She rubbed sleep from her eyes
Gives the target a First Circle spiritual illness that causes their eyelids to emit brilliant light. Touch charm, target must roll [Stamina + Resistance] or be blinded, and even if succeed get -2 to all Perception and attack rolls scene-long. Also, it's Speed 3.

Vision-Confiscating Sutemi
and her sight went with it.
Your glory forces an enemy to focus on you, regardless of what they thought their intentions were - and you can hold their attention long enough for your allies to take advantage. Lets you perfectly redirect an attack from its target to yourself. Original target can still make a counterattack even though not actually attacked, and said counterattack is unexpected if the attacker can't beat your [Appearance + Presence] with [Perception + Awareness]

Ash-Rind Atemi (prereq: BP Atemi)
“That's not a good sign,” she said.
Poke. Now you have melanoma.
Well actually, a Second Circle spiritual illness that closely resembles melanoma, except that the affected skin doesn't turn black because of damaged cells overproducing melanin. The inside of the victim's skin is on fire, and it turns black where it's burned to ashes. The illness imposes the equivalent of a -4 wound penalty due to pain, and deals 1L per action to anyone not immune to fire.

Horizon-Crossing Zanshin (prereq: Rising in the East)
But she stood up tall
Permanent. You achieve transcendence in successfully defending your companions, becoming nearly impossible to harm when victory is fresh in your mind. After striking an opponent, or after making a Defend Other action which prevents any damage to the person you used it to protect, you gain hardness equal to the sum of your DVs for one action.

Coronal Blast Rebuke
because it was someone's fault, and he couldn't hide from her
(prereq: Vision-Confiscating)
Counterattack charm, deals environmental damage in an area of effect by spewing solar fire over it.

VCoS Form
because she wouldn't hide from him.
(prereqs: all 3 Tier 2 charms)
Do you know why people's eyes hurt when they stare at the sun? It didn't use to be like that, you know. Through most of the First Age, it was difficult to look at the sun because of its tremendous brightness and glory, but it didn't actually hurt. So, why? Because the sun is punching you. Every time you look at it, it's punching you. It's too far away to hurt much, but that's what it's doing.
Once per action, you automatically make a punch against everyone looking at you; the attack successes are fixed at 1/2 your attack pool for a punch and the damage is fixed at your punch damage + strength -1 per 20 yards away from you, to keep calculation from being a total pain. Can add any supplemental Martial Arts charm to it, but that counts as your Charm activation and costs double the normal mote cost.

Radiant Fusion Kata (prereq: VCoS Form)
The Elder Sutra of Loyalty: She shone like a torch, he burned like a tree.
Lasts 5 actions. Does aggravated environmental damage around you, and you gain 10 motes per action that vanish instead of being added to your pools if you don't use them then by the end of that action. Also, you take 1L every action, because you are in fact making your flesh undergo the motonic equivalent of nuclear fusion.

Termination Shock (prereq: VCoS Form)
“It wasn't because you took my eyes,” she said
Put up a barrier around yourself that damages and halts anyone who approaches it, and every enemy adjacent to it must roll [Dexterity or Stamina + Athletics or Resistance] at a difficulty of your MA every turn, suffering knockdown if they fail.

Plummeting Deathstrike of Xi (prereq: VCoS Form)
as she took much more than his.
You do lots of damage, blind opponent, and knock them back. In fact, you can actually knock them into Malfeas, the Underworld, or the Wyld because you hit them with all the force of the setting sun. Might make it so there's still a chance of knocking them into another realm of existence even if they parry, unless they pay 1 wp to resist.

Foes With Wax Wings Methodology (prereq: Termination Shock)
“It was because you took my eyes from my master.”
Permanently upgrades Termination Shock. In addition to around yourself, you can put it around a location, an ally, or an enemy, either to protect someone or to blast apart a formation of weak targets.
Also, if you have Radiant Fusion and a Termination Shock up around you at the same time, you add the amount of damage RF does to the knockdown difficulty.
Also, if you have Plummeting Deathstrike of Xi, you can reflexively pay its normal cost to use it on someone who's knocked down by a Termination Shock without it counting as a Charm activation.

Unchallenged Kamae Nimbus
“And I will not let my master be conquered.”
Can reflexively activate VCoS Form, Radiant Fusion Kata, and Termination Shock as if had them combo'd, and VCoS Form's punching has Blazing Palebra Atemi and Ash-Rind Atemi applied to it. Your devastating aura of nuclear fire from Radiant Fusion Kata now just feels pleasantly warm to your allies, who can take refuge at your side.
Enemies must succeed spend 1 wp each time they want to attack you or any ally protected by Termination Shock or Radiant Fusion Kata, scarcely capable of attacking due to the overwhelming, clearly indomitable glory and power you display.

Sanguine
2011-03-08, 05:10 PM
Thanks.

Also, you know Vermillion Clouds of Sunset Style, the SMA that the sun knows? I've got an outline for a homebrew. Feedback on ideas, and improvements to the Sutra because it's pretty bad, would be appreciated.

The Student's Sutra of Loyalty: Once, there was a bronze-skinned maiden...
Rising in the East Method
who woke up late.
Like the sun rising on a night battle, you may be slow to approach but always welcome and inspiring when you arrive. You can choose to take your first action at tick 6 instead of rolling your Join Battle pool as normal. If you do so, roll your Join Battle pool at tick 6; all of your allies who can see you gain 1 wp and as many motes as you rolled successes.

Blazing Palpebra Atemi
She rubbed sleep from her eyes
Gives the target a First Circle spiritual illness that causes their eyelids to emit brilliant light. Touch charm, target must roll [Stamina + Resistance] or be blinded, and even if succeed get -2 to all Perception and attack rolls scene-long. Also, it's Speed 3.

Vision-Confiscating Sutemi
and her sight went with it.
Your glory forces an enemy to focus on you, regardless of what they thought their intentions were - and you can hold their attention long enough for your allies to take advantage. Lets you perfectly redirect an attack from its target to yourself. Original target can still make a counterattack even though not actually attacked, and said counterattack is unexpected if the attacker can't beat your [Appearance + Presence] with [Perception + Awareness]

Ash-Rind Atemi (prereq: BP Atemi)
“That's not a good sign,” she said.
Poke. Now you have melanoma.
Well actually, a Second Circle spiritual illness that closely resembles melanoma, except that the affected skin doesn't turn black because of damaged cells overproducing melanin. The inside of the victim's skin is on fire, and it turns black where it's burned to ashes. The illness imposes the equivalent of a -4 wound penalty due to pain, and deals 1L per action to anyone not immune to fire.

Horizon-Crossing Zanshin (prereq: Rising in the East)
But she stood up tall
Permanent. You achieve transcendence in successfully defending your companions, becoming nearly impossible to harm when victory is fresh in your mind. After striking an opponent, or after making a Defend Other action which prevents any damage to the person you used it to protect, you gain hardness equal to the sum of your DVs for one action.

Coronal Blast Rebuke
because it was someone's fault, and he couldn't hide from her
(prereq: Vision-Confiscating)
Counterattack charm, deals environmental damage in an area of effect by spewing solar fire over it.

VCoS Form
because she wouldn't hide from him.
(prereqs: all 3 Tier 2 charms)
Do you know why people's eyes hurt when they stare at the sun? It didn't use to be like that, you know. Through most of the First Age, it was difficult to look at the sun because of its tremendous brightness and glory, but it didn't actually hurt. So, why? Because the sun is punching you. Every time you look at it, it's punching you. It's too far away to hurt much, but that's what it's doing.
Once per action, you automatically make a punch against everyone looking at you; the attack successes are fixed at 1/2 your attack pool for a punch and the damage is fixed at your punch damage + strength -1 per 20 yards away from you, to keep calculation from being a total pain. Can add any supplemental Martial Arts charm to it, but that counts as your Charm activation and costs double the normal mote cost.

Radiant Fusion Kata (prereq: VCoS Form)
The Elder Sutra of Loyalty: She shone like a torch, he burned like a tree.
Lasts 5 actions. Does aggravated environmental damage around you, and you gain 10 motes per action that vanish instead of being added to your pools if you don't use them then by the end of that action. Also, you take 1L every action, because you are in fact making your flesh undergo the motonic equivalent of nuclear fusion.

Termination Shock (prereq: VCoS Form)
“It wasn't because you took my eyes,” she said
Put up a barrier around yourself that damages and halts anyone who approaches it, and every enemy adjacent to it must roll [Dexterity or Stamina + Athletics or Resistance] at a difficulty of your MA every turn, suffering knockdown if they fail.

Plummeting Deathstrike of Xi (prereq: VCoS Form)
as she took much more than his.
You do lots of damage, blind opponent, and knock them back. In fact, you can actually knock them into Malfeas, the Underworld, or the Wyld because you hit them with all the force of the setting sun. Might make it so there's still a chance of knocking them into another realm of existence even if they parry, unless they pay 1 wp to resist.

Foes With Wax Wings Methodology (prereq: Termination Shock)
“It was because you took my eyes from my master.”
Permanently upgrades Termination Shock. In addition to around yourself, you can put it around a location, an ally, or an enemy, either to protect someone or to blast apart a formation of weak targets.
Also, if you have Radiant Fusion and a Termination Shock up around you at the same time, you add the amount of damage RF does to the knockdown difficulty.
Also, if you have Plummeting Deathstrike of Xi, you can reflexively pay its normal cost to use it on someone who's knocked down by a Termination Shock without it counting as a Charm activation.

Unchallenged Kamae Nimbus
“And I will not let my master be conquered.”
Can reflexively activate VCoS Form, Radiant Fusion Kata, and Termination Shock as if had them combo'd, and VCoS Form's punching has Blazing Palebra Atemi and Ash-Rind Atemi applied to it. Your devastating aura of nuclear fire from Radiant Fusion Kata now just feels pleasantly warm to your allies, who can take refuge at your side.
Enemies must succeed spend 1 wp each time they want to attack you or any ally protected by Termination Shock or Radiant Fusion Kata, scarcely capable of attacking due to the overwhelming, clearly indomitable glory and power you display.

I don't love it. Blazing Palpebra Atemi and Rising in the East method seem a tad underwhelming. Radiant Fusion Kata seems like a Charm someone emulating the Daystar would know not one the Daystar itself would. The same with Coronal Blast Rebuke.

Also, Foes with Wax Wings Methodology doesn't really seem to have anything to do with it's name which is a darn shame.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-08, 06:03 PM
True. Especially Foes With Wax Wings; I couldn't think of anything better to do with it that wouldn't be basically "Termination Shock, except slightly different." I'd love ideas on how to do it better.

Sanguine
2011-03-08, 06:18 PM
True. Especially Foes With Wax Wings; I couldn't think of anything better to do with it that wouldn't be basically "Termination Shock, except slightly different." I'd love ideas on how to do it better.

I would love to offer them. However the Muses see fit to deny my humble plea.

Jokasti
2011-03-08, 06:38 PM
Well, the Sun kept Icarus from going any farther, so maybe a parylzation effect? Like in media, when a spotlight hits someone they stop in their tracks.

Xefas
2011-03-08, 06:48 PM
My thought process for that charm name had something to do with The Sun being the idol of perfection, and Icarus having the hubris to try to reach its unattainable glory.

I was thinking of a charm that punished enemies for trying to be as good as you at stuff. Hence "Foes With Wax Wings" - they try to equal you, and you melt them for it.

So, maybe something that punishes foes for using more motes than you in a given round (this might go well with Radiant Fusion Kata), or having higher die pools, or making bigger stunts or something.

tonberrian
2011-03-08, 06:53 PM
Man, I really wish I had Elloge's charmset, because I want to build a character who links worlds via books a la the D'ni in Myst et al.

Xefas
2011-03-09, 02:40 AM
I may have made an Adorjan Pony. What do you guys think?
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/AdorjanPony3.png

Lix Lorn
2011-03-09, 07:41 AM
Ahem.

SQUEE.

I think that answers your question. :P

Jinn Master
2011-03-09, 08:03 AM
That looks... interesting.

Fearan
2011-03-09, 10:57 AM
Hi. I'm pretty new in Exalted, so I'd like to ask for an advice. I'm making a character focused on martial arts. Right now, I'm trying to understad, which one is worse taking. I need a celestial ma with no weapon and no armor (tricks like "count as unarmed when using x" are ok). What can you recommend me?

DeadManSleeping
2011-03-09, 11:05 AM
The only CMA White Wolf has ever published that doesn't allow weapons with unarmed is Celestial Monkey Style, which has only three good Charms at most, and they're all after you get some fairly useless starting Charms. And one of those three Charms is a Charm that lets you use the style with weapons and armor.

Honestly, just take a Martial Arts style you like and don't bother with the weapons. Unless it's an Immaculate style or Righteous Devil Style (which shouldn't exist), nobody's expecting you to need weapons for any of them.

Since you're new, I'm guessing you're making a Solar. Solar Hero style is pretty decent as far as MA styles go. It's flavored as barroom brawl, but that doesn't mean you can't be agile and fun. It just means you focus quite a bit on delivering singular blows and throws with a lot of force.

Snake Style and Mantis Style are good flavorfully, but don't tend to play well mechanically. Tiger Style is also good flavorfully, but some people whine about overpoweredness. Still, all three are based around using your body to emulate powerful animals, which is fun.

That's about all I've got. There are other styles, but they tend to have some extra tricky-trick to them, and aren't based solely around turning your body into a weapon.

Fearan
2011-03-09, 11:13 AM
Oh, right. Actually, I'm making an Abyssal. Is Dark Messiah as ok as Solar hero? Thanks for the advices.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-09, 11:22 AM
DMS is mechanically alright except for Void Avatar Prana, which is game-breaking. It's not a very powerful MA because it's so focused on hitting people, with little defensive ability or interesting tricks. But if you just want to grapple people or punch their limbs off, it's perfectly good.

DeadManSleeping
2011-03-09, 01:54 PM
DMS is mechanically alright except for Void Avatar Prana, which is game-breaking. It's not a very powerful MA because it's so focused on hitting people, with little defensive ability or interesting tricks. But if you just want to grapple people or punch their limbs off, it's perfectly good.

But I don't have Void Avatar Prana. I don't use Dark Messiah Style! :smalltongue:

Also, an alternate reading of the Charm makes it useless instead of overpowered. I can't remember exactly how, though. Either way, it's a downright terrible Charm.

Great style, though.

Friv
2011-03-09, 02:04 PM
But I don't have Void Avatar Prana. I don't use Dark Messiah Style! :smalltongue:

Also, an alternate reading of the Charm makes it useless instead of overpowered. I can't remember exactly how, though. Either way, it's a downright terrible Charm.

Great style, though.

IIRC, Void Avatar Prana has a duration of Instant, specifies that it can only be activated when the character activates Dark Messiah Form, and proceeds to not actually say anything about staying on for all of DMF's duration. As a result, a strict reading of the Charm is that you have to activate it against every attack made in the tick that you activate your Form, after which it vanishes. To do what it wants to do, it would have to be a Permanent Charm which increases the cost of DMF to grant additional powers.

It's moderately clear that it's meant to be active for the whole scene, but that's stupid overpowered, so no one does it either.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-09, 03:53 PM
Hey, that's interesting. What if we read VAP such that you have to reactivate DMS Form every time you want to use it?
It's now a Speed 6 action that costs 7m, 1 wp.
If anyone attacks you on the single tick it goes active on, you get a perfect block. Pay 1m per block.
If anyone's touching you on that tick, they take unsoakable lethal damage each time they do.
If you can somehow make a hand-to-hand attack on that tick (I don't see a way short of Charcoal March of Spiders Style, because it lacks a combo keyword, but maybe there's a way counterattack charms!), you add said unsoakable lethal damage to your attack. 1m per attack, if you somehow get several.
Your anima flashes totemic on that tick.

That actually looks kind of OK to me. DMS Form can't be activated in a grapple, so you can't just clinch someone and burn them with unsoakable damage every 6 ticks until they die. You only get the ultracheap perfect defense and enemy-harming if you have good timing. As for the anima, paying 7m, 1wp and taking 6 ticks just to scare mortals isn't exactly overpowered at Essence 4. Kinda weak for a capstone, actually. Looks like Dean Shomshak was good at balancing things all along!

Oh wait, except he said he intended it to be a scene-length perfect block. Balanced by it not being applicability-trumping (so unblockable attacks work on it), the ability to run out of Essence, and flaws of invulnerability. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/12839.aspx) Damn it, Dean.

Indon
2011-03-09, 05:19 PM
Oh wait, except he said he intended it to be a scene-length perfect block. Balanced by it not being applicability-trumping (so unblockable attacks work on it), the ability to run out of Essence, and flaws of invulnerability. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/12839.aspx) Damn it, Dean.

If you want to weaken it, I'd make the mote expenditure on attacking or being attacked involuntary.

Now, the charm can be defeated by just wailing away at the user with flurries, as the blind thrashing of the void lacks the finesse to identify and withhold its' energy against weak attacks, and in doing so saps the essence of the user to nothing.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-09, 06:39 PM
Yeah, but all paranoia combat consists of wailing away with flurries and waiting for your opponent to run out of motes. Scene-long VAP would cost only 1m per PD, 2m cheaper than any other PD I know of except Crossed Wings Denial (which increases in cost every time you use it).

Indon
2011-03-09, 07:16 PM
Yeah, but all paranoia combat consists of wailing away with flurries and waiting for your opponent to run out of motes. Scene-long VAP would cost only 1m per PD, 2m cheaper than any other PD I know of except Crossed Wings Denial (which increases in cost every time you use it).

Normally in such combat, the flurries have to be threatening enough to beat the defender's DV in order to drain their motes - if you're attacked with a flurry that's not likely to hit, you use a post-step-2 defense.

With that VAP, they wouldn't have to be.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-09, 09:32 PM
Oh, so Voidy the Abyssal would be forced to spend motes perfecting away the attacks of Doomed Mortal #301 as well as the attacks of Invincible Sword Princess. OK, that would be situationally more balanced.

People on rpg.net (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=394884) suggest houseruling it so when you activate DMS form you get the 1m perfect parries and bonus effects until your DV refreshes, so you can enter the form in the middle of a fight without being hurt, and harm anyone who tries to hit you while you're powering up. That seems like a great solution, certainly better than my suggestion of "It only works on that one tick." With that, I'd start fights by putting up whatever the Abyssal mirror of Ready in Eight Directions is, and then put up VAP on the last action that Ri8D is active.

Indon
2011-03-10, 11:21 AM
Oh, so Voidy the Abyssal would be forced to spend motes perfecting away the attacks of Doomed Mortal #301 as well as the attacks of Invincible Sword Princess. OK, that would be situationally more balanced.

I was thinking more along the lines of someone who figured this out picking up a handful of rocks and pelting away Voidy's motes, but that'd apply too.

Are there any war-command-oriented martial arts styles out there? I'm designing one (The White Lotus Gambit style, inspired by Avatar) and was wondering if there was anywhere I could draw inspiration.

Reynard
2011-03-10, 01:27 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of someone who figured this out picking up a handful of rocks and pelting away Voidy's motes, but that'd apply too.

Are there any war-command-oriented martial arts styles out there? I'm designing one (The White Lotus Gambit style, inspired by Avatar) and was wondering if there was anywhere I could draw inspiration.

Well, there's this Homebrew (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Pankrator%27s_Panoply_Style)style.

I can't speak for it's effectiveness, due to Mass Combat being the terrible, headachey waste of time that it is.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-10, 02:41 PM
Are there any war-command-oriented martial arts styles out there? I'm designing one (The White Lotus Gambit style, inspired by Avatar) and was wondering if there was anywhere I could draw inspiration.

Crimson Pentacle Blade is a pretty strong TMA about formation fighting
Throne Shadow has a few useful war-ish Charms
White Reaper is more about personally slaughtering armies than command but could be useful
Silver-Voiced Nightingale has various Charms for singing to encourage your allies and demoralize your enemies
Scarlet-Patterned Battlefield is an SMA that's useful for inspiration. Borked in places, like most SMAs, but useful for inspiration.

Tavar
2011-03-10, 10:15 PM
So, I know that in Exalted, there are things called behemoths. Created by Primordials or the Fey for the most part, they are weird, strange, and powerful. But, where are they detailed? I mean, they're often supposed to be fought. Were are example stats? Or rules for building your own?

DeadManSleeping
2011-03-10, 10:17 PM
So, I know that in Exalted, there are things called behemoths. Created by Primordials or the Fey for the most part, they are weird, strange, and powerful. But, where are they detailed? I mean, they're often supposed to be fought. Were are example stats? Or rules for building your own?

My theory is that the Exalted have wiped them out so thoroughly that even their stat entries were obliterated from all the manuals. And yes, White Wolf, you can use that as your excuse. :smalltongue:

Sanguine
2011-03-10, 10:20 PM
My theory is that the Exalted have wiped them out so thoroughly that even their stat entries were obliterated from all the manuals. And yes, White Wolf, you can use that as your excuse. :smalltongue:

Except there are several statblocks for Behemoths throughout the Compass books.

Edit: Guidelines for building Fey Behemoths are in Graceful Wicked Masques. As far as I know there are no guidelines for making Primordial Behemoths.

Xefas
2011-03-10, 10:22 PM
My theory is that the Exalted have wiped them out so thoroughly that even their stat entries were obliterated from all the manuals. And yes, White Wolf, you can use that as your excuse. :smalltongue:

It's an upgrade charm for Ghost Eating Technique called "Rulebook Editing Redaction". Such is your magnanimity that you purge a creature so thoroughly that not even Exalts in alternate realities that have yet to exist will have to fight them.

Lochar
2011-03-10, 10:31 PM
There's stats for one in the Underworld book, if I remember correctly. It's one of the heka(insert spelling attempt here).

Sanguine
2011-03-10, 10:42 PM
There's one in the Malfeas book and two in the North book. Those are just off the top of my head, if I made a concerted effort I could probably find two or three more.

Indon
2011-03-10, 11:23 PM
Well, there's this Homebrew (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Pankrator%27s_Panoply_Style)style.

I can't speak for it's effectiveness, due to Mass Combat being the terrible, headachey waste of time that it is.


Crimson Pentacle Blade is a pretty strong TMA about formation fighting
Throne Shadow has a few useful war-ish Charms
White Reaper is more about personally slaughtering armies than command but could be useful
Silver-Voiced Nightingale has various Charms for singing to encourage your allies and demoralize your enemies
Scarlet-Patterned Battlefield is an SMA that's useful for inspiration. Borked in places, like most SMAs, but useful for inspiration.

Thanks for the suggestions! Reynard, I've not really run into any problems with Mass Combat. What kinds of things are you talking about?

Lix Lorn
2011-03-11, 05:11 AM
There's stats for one in the Underworld book, if I remember correctly. It's one of the heka(insert spelling attempt here).
Hekathonkire? Something like that.

MickJay
2011-03-11, 07:23 AM
Hekatonkheires (or hekatoncheires, if you prefer spelling closer to the original Greek). Switch the last "es" to "os" if you want a singular. :smallwink:

DeadManSleeping
2011-03-11, 08:34 AM
Except there are several statblocks for Behemoths throughout the Compass books.

Edit: Guidelines for building Fey Behemoths are in Graceful Wicked Masques. As far as I know there are no guidelines for making Primordial Behemoths.

Well, you know, there used to be thousands of the things, and they probably kept some alive for sport and entertainment. Sometimes there's more fun to be had than killing!

Friv
2011-03-11, 11:01 AM
So, I know that in Exalted, there are things called behemoths. Created by Primordials or the Fey for the most part, they are weird, strange, and powerful. But, where are they detailed? I mean, they're often supposed to be fought. Were are example stats? Or rules for building your own?

I believe the rules for building behemoths are as follows:

Take a concept. Give it whatever dots and magic powers seem appropriate, throwing balance to the wind. You are done.

As unique, strange beings, they don't really have construction guidelines. There are one or two in each of the Terrestrial Compasses, and some of the Celestial Compasses.

Indon
2011-03-11, 09:45 PM
So, I was thinking about it as I read the Return of the Scarlet Empress...

I've never read the scenario, but I imagine it'd be easy enough to invoke liberal application of Green Sun Prince to make the scenario more difficult, as well as more personal if an Infernal circle focused its' efforts on the characters.

Rikandur Azebol
2011-03-11, 09:49 PM
So, I was thinking about it as I read the Return of the Scarlet Empress ...

Heh. Once I played in a game where ST, by accident, let our group to discover Empress's lot, from the culprit himself, conviced Yozi Oramus to relay message into the past ... and suddenly we foiled the whole plan before She fell into the trap. The look of dissapointment on ED's face was priceless. :smallamused:

Saying so, perhaps You guys should start with newbs ? Or write down why Your old chars depowered to newb status ?

Aether
2011-03-12, 05:31 PM
TheCountAlucard - is there any place I can read more of your Circle's adventures? I admit I lol'd at the "We need Five Metal Shrike Power!" bit and have wanted to see the rest of the adventure.

Is it recorded anywhere, or are summaries and questions the most we can realistically get?



Heh. Once I played in a game where ST, by accident, let our group to discover Empress's lot, from the culprit himself, conviced Yozi Oramus to relay message into the past ... and suddenly we foiled the whole plan before She fell into the trap. The look of dissapointment on ED's face was priceless. :smallamused:

Saying so, perhaps You guys should start with newbs ? Or write down why Your old chars depowered to newb status ?

... How? On all accounts. How did the ST goof, which sounded awesome? How did you convince Oramus to relay a message into the past, which sounds unbelievable? And exactly how disappointed was the ED really?

Really, this I just got to hear...

Tavar
2011-03-13, 04:42 PM
Infinite jade Chakrams. They supposedly factor in the Jade material bonus already, but I notice that the have speed 4, just like normal, mundane Chakrams. Is this a balancing factor or something?

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-13, 05:20 PM
So, last night's session...

Ah, here we go, let me sum it up for you, in its entirety...

First, I got yelled at by a Sidereal for using a Charm that doesn't mess with the Loom of Fate, because it was messing with the Loom of Fate.

Then the "wise general" Erdrick was quick to attack a stranger we don't know anything about at the behest of a stranger we don't know anything about, using only the evidence that Shichirou and Cashious gathered in the span of less than an hour, without investigating into the matter at all. And the stranger he attacked? It was the Bishop of the Chalcedony Thurible. You know, the guy similar on power scale to the guy we spent two years planning how to defeat.

Gripping action ensued as the rest of the group made exactly two dice rolls, neither of which was the sort I was capable of stunting (due to both of them being "do you know this"-type rolls).

We also had two big arguments over rules, and the new guy decided he was going to play a different character, you know, one that could actually contribute something to us. :smallannoyed:

Tavar
2011-03-13, 05:29 PM
Which charm? And is this the attempt to run the Return of the Scarlet Empress? Or some other game?

Lix Lorn
2011-03-13, 05:44 PM
Doesn't EVERY charm mess with destiny, due to essence ignoring fate?
And Sidereals mess up fate MORE, thus their charms causing Paradox?

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-13, 05:46 PM
Doesn't EVERY charm mess with destiny, due to essence ignoring fate?Yes, but I never get yelled at by my allies for uppercutting someone into a volcano.

Tavar
2011-03-13, 05:48 PM
Isn't is more using astrology that messes it up? At least, Sidereal astrology and craft fate? Might very well be wrong.

And, yeah, that seems to be making a big deal about nothing.

Sanguine
2011-03-13, 05:49 PM
Isn't is more using astrology that messes it up? At least, Sidereal astrology and craft fate? Might very well be wrong.

And, yeah, that seems to be making a big deal about nothing.

Yeah it's Astrology they get Paradox for not their Charms.

Edit: Also I agree, big deal about nothing.

Lochar
2011-03-13, 05:49 PM
Infinite jade Chakrams. They supposedly factor in the Jade material bonus already, but I notice that the have speed 4, just like normal, mundane Chakrams. Is this a balancing factor or something?

Could it be that it has the Blue Jade specific bonuses applied? +1 Damage, +2 Rate?

SurlySeraph
2011-03-13, 05:55 PM
Abyssal question. Can you take Ravening Mouth of X for non-combat abilities? Ravening Mouth of Performance with Withering Phantasmagoria, of Bureaucracy with Eloquent Example Inspiration, and of Ride or Sail with running people down seem like probably-intended uses to me. Using Ravening Mouth of Bureaucracy and passing laws mandating really harsh punishments, or Ravening Mouth of Linguistics and putting up eloquent billboards urging people to kill themselves, seem possibly abusive but thematic.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-13, 06:01 PM
I'd say yes because Lol. XD

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-13, 06:01 PM
Abyssal question. Can you take Ravening Mouth of X for non-combat abilities?Not by the default rules, sadly. Default rules, it's strictly Archery, Martial Arts, Melee, and Thrown. Still, would be awesome if you could.

Tavar
2011-03-13, 06:04 PM
And, yeah, that seems to be making a big deal about nothing.
Just to be clear, I meant that the characters critisiing you seem to be making a big deal about nothing. After all, the Loom can handle much bigger problems on it's own, and making more heroic mortals helps Creation. Which, at the current time, should be the biggest concern.

Could it be that it has the Blue Jade specific bonuses applied? +1 Damage, +2 Rate?

Odd that they would have them in the core book, before those specific bonuses were released in Oadenol's codex.

Also, I don't think so. They only have 1 more rate than normal mundane chakrams. The closes artifact weapon I can find to them, Typhoon Wheels from the Scroll of monk, are artifact 1 weapons, with a rate of 2(pre material bonus), equal damage and speed, and better accuracy. It's really odd.

Lochar
2011-03-13, 06:13 PM
You have your choice then, for Sentai. Either take Blue Jade's specific bonus, or standard jade bonus on top of it's normal ability. Which would you like?

Tavar
2011-03-13, 06:18 PM
Normal Jade bonus, please.

Sanguine
2011-03-13, 06:30 PM
Just to be clear, I meant that the characters critisiing you seem to be making a big deal about nothing. After all, the Loom can handle much bigger problems on it's own, and making more heroic mortals helps Creation. Which, at the current time, should be the biggest concern.


I too thought the characters doing the criticizing were making a big deal out of nothing. Just to be clear. I believe the indignation Alucard has been showing is perfectly justified.

Indon
2011-03-13, 07:02 PM
"You Can Be More." :smallsigh:

Mortal extras have destinies (because everyone has a destiny already, that's what the Loom does), they just aren't very interesting. Awakening essence doesn't necessarily change this destiny, either - it just allows the mortal to more readily buck their destinies (because destiny is not absolute in the Exalted universe, anyone can endeavor to avoid theirs). Furthermore, charms that literally awaken Mortal essence (which obviously are better than just making mortals heroic) document nothing like this.


Abyssal question. Can you take Ravening Mouth of X for non-combat abilities? Ravening Mouth of Performance with Withering Phantasmagoria, of Bureaucracy with Eloquent Example Inspiration, and of Ride or Sail with running people down seem like probably-intended uses to me. Using Ravening Mouth of Bureaucracy and passing laws mandating really harsh punishments, or Ravening Mouth of Linguistics and putting up eloquent billboards urging people to kill themselves, seem possibly abusive but thematic.

It seems clear to me that the Ravening Mouth charms are meant to cause the character's anima to devour Essence, making it rather a physical attack sort of charm.

That said, can't Abyssals just make their own charms? I'd probably allow for a more expansive Ravening Mouth-like ability to be used with almost any abilities used to inflict non-immediate harm as a charm that simply requires learning Ravening Mouth of something, and then probably requiring Essence 4.

Tavar
2011-03-13, 07:29 PM
Are their any firm rules regarding reflexive attacks? Or just what's in the Ink monkey charms that use them?

Yuki Akuma
2011-03-13, 07:35 PM
That said, can't Abyssals just make their own charms?

Of course. They're Solars. If it's thematic for any Exalt type to be able to make their own charms, it's for Solars.

Tavar
2011-03-13, 07:35 PM
Are Sidereals the only ones that have a difficult time making charms? Because the charms have to be from the Maidens, or something?

Yuki Akuma
2011-03-13, 07:41 PM
Yes. Their charms are made by the Maidens, not by themselves.

Everyone else can make custom charms.

Of course, Sidereals can make custom Sidereal Martial Arts.

Lord Raziere
2011-03-13, 07:41 PM
beh, I would just ignore that and just start making Sidereal charms because no one else seems to be making Sidereal charms to make em less wonky....but I'm too busy with other things.

would really like someone to do that someday....maybe I can just start a brainstorming thing where a bunch of people come up with charm ideas for Sidereals then let them discuss with each other of how to balance them.

Yuki Akuma
2011-03-13, 07:42 PM
...What?

You can homebrew Sidereal charms fine. But in-character, they can't make custom charms.

And nobody really makes Sidereal charms because I think we're still waiting for their errata.

(Or did that come out already?)

Lord Raziere
2011-03-13, 07:46 PM
then why don't people just make homebrew charms and say the Maidens did it? :smallconfused:

I mean how long with this waiting for errata take?

Yuki Akuma
2011-03-13, 07:50 PM
A lot of people dislike Sidereals for some reason.

Tavar
2011-03-13, 07:50 PM
Partially, at least from my understanding, the fact that all charms are made by the maidens, so Sidereals themselves can't make charms has been changed in the internet to mean that no one can make new Sidereal Charms. Which somehow got extended into homebrew.

Don't ask me how, this is all just hearsay.

tonberrian
2011-03-13, 08:09 PM
As far as I can tell, Tavar is basically right. The Sidereals have a closed charmset - the Maidens designed the charms, not the Chosen, and only the Maidens can make new charms for the Sidereal charmset. Because of this, there has been a certain stigma against homebrewed Sidereal charms, because in theory, the Maidens had already designed all the tools a Sidereal would need to complete whatever they were tasked with (the extant Sidereal charmset) and a Sidereal should branch out into Martial Arts if he really wanted a different effect; it was also very difficult to convince the Maidens to design a new charm for the Sidereals to use.

I think it has been only recently that the collective internet has realized that adding in custom charms into the Sidereal charmset doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been there all along. Furthermore, since the Sidereal charmset does not work as written (willpower costs are borked, lots of 1E copypasta, elementary defensive effects are missing, etc.) and a thorough errata has been promised, most homebrewers are hesitant to add in charms that might be obsoleted or whose prerequisites might be totally changed or even dropped once the errata rolls in some time next neversday.

Kyeudo
2011-03-14, 12:31 AM
Infinite jade Chakrams. They supposedly factor in the Jade material bonus already, but I notice that the have speed 4, just like normal, mundane Chakrams. Is this a balancing factor or something?

The Infinite Chakram really should have the same stats as a Jade Typhoon Wheel.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-14, 12:33 AM
So, what kind of Exalted game/Exaltation would you recommend for a newbie?

Kylarra
2011-03-14, 12:44 AM
I'd probably say Dragonblooded. You don't need to worry terribly about combos, flaring your anima banner doesn't immediately get you killed, and you don't have to feel as contrived as for why 5 of them are working together, fate aside.

knightMARE
2011-03-14, 01:34 AM
What kind of exalt do people recommend for a character whose thing is "moving and attacking so fast that all you see is a blur, making quick, precise attacks before moving off again". I was thinking Solar with a bunch of athletics charms, or maybe Infernal with Adorjan charms..

TheCountAlucard
2011-03-14, 02:32 AM
Eclipse Caste Solar with both. :smallcool:

Or even better, Moonshadow Caste Abyssal with all three. :smalltongue:

Rikandur Azebol
2011-03-14, 03:51 AM
... How? On all accounts. How did the ST goof, which sounded awesome ?

In one game we suprised him and each PC started to scheme behind backs of the rest of the Circle. Power hungry gnats, as You could easily guess. Players had a lot more fun, while ST was distracted with how lightly we treated fact that each of our Characters was lying with straigh face, and how disturbed ST was when we "stunted" explainations to him about our not so nice act.

Long story short I wanted to became a dragon. Like one from D&D. ST was against it, preferring more "traditional" Exalted. Then I started to talk to some demons and how they have no moral objections to body-modifications.

We travelled to Malfeas, saw Ebon Dragon's new palace ... and DB among us was really suprised. Later we tried to track back the Empress with Loom (our circle consisted of the bunch from every possible type of exaltation, I were the group's strategist and also a mutant in X-men style, Lunar was a socialite(in short assasin), Solar were a nominal leader and absolutely unable to fight(try emulating bard with Solar charms), Siddie was party's tank and alvays botched Craft(Fate) rolls, Half-Elemental Dragon-Blood was a party's healer ... but she most often healed the victims of ours and preached to the masses.) but botched and got a bunch of nasty Pattern Bites. And Siddies kicked him from the Bureau of Destiny very hard, never to return.
He was back next week.:smallbiggrin:

We went to Rathess, butchered our way in, conviced Raksha to kill off the Solar's retinue ... anyway after our passing Rathess was in even poorer shape than in the beggining. ST spammed a lot of rogue vine-gods at us too, but we were prepared greatly and Siddie remade them all into tons of starmetal. I really hate SMAs, by the way. I got new fangirl in the form of Poisoned Carmelian Blade. After some ... "sparring training" I really needed all the healing I could get.

And decided to never, ever fight fair with anyone.^^

Later our Siddie commisioned Gundam for himself, and paid a lot of bribes to be re-accepted into Bureau again. Meanwhile homeless gods of craft were hired to rebuild Orrery, so we can track Empress's wherabouts.

Meanwhile we used our Heavenly connections to hire big amounts of workless gods and whipped them into an army. Siddie's friends found out for him several bunches of ED's cultists and we made a mess of them. While we were making all out shadow-war against Ebon Dragon's minions, putting dents into his plans ... I think. Orrery was rebuilt and Siddie first time in his life didn't botched fate-related roll. He made the backward prognostic. And found out extact date when Empress dissapeared and that was it. Orrery broke.


How did you convince Oramus to relay a message into the past, which sounds unbelievable ?

We conviced Dream-Weaving Raksha to kick my character into one of Oramus's nightmares. I were sent with majority of Circle's artifacts and all Essence, but 3 motes, commited. Fortunately I held out and managed to dream-speak with Oramus, wich took about a month and my comatose wreck had to be kept alive against all odds. The lazy creeps cyborgized me to not have to wake me up and continued merry slaughter of Ebon Dragon's minions. And one day a demon of Oramus showed up and told them that I'm stuck and can't get out of Oramus's dream. And the demon had instructions from me. :smallcool:

Circle were to free Oramus out of his wings, and were given extra magical artefacts and each of them got an demon specie to boot. Predictibly Solar wanted harem of angel-chicks, I wanted harem of succubi(like the ones from Diablo), Lunar wanted some chibis that can merge with the host in some sort of DBZ Fusion, Siddie ... wanted demons that change into ton of magical equipment, and Dragon-Blood wanted some sort of tiny demons able to share essence with their host. She alvays complained that we had more essence ... and I never use it outside of attunement or Thaumaturgy, so my guy doesn't count. In short, her Essence shortages dissapeared completely with several tens of thousands of sand particle sized demons living on her skin.

Guys followed my plan.2 of Oramus's wings were officially, under Cecelyne's law, given to my guy and Siddie used SMAs in his Gundam to rip these two wings off Oramus. Later it was a piece of cake when the Yozi fainted from pain, I awoke and had the wings grafted to my magic armor. ST said that thanks to the succubi ministrations i lost 3 stamina permamently and 6 willpower. Fortunately I had XP to buy it back, and two N/A artifacts to boot ! When Oramus were slowly waking we used his demons, in Yozi's name of course, to untagle rest of his wings ... tearing them apart rather messily. Lastly Siddie stole Peach of Immortality and barrel of Celestial Vine to cheer up the pained Yozi. These two artifacts helped Oramus to recover some dignity and it is then when I asked for a favor. Yozi found it messy and amusing and relayed message into the past.

And that was end of the campaign, ST had enough. But in the next campaign we asked if we could start ... 2 years before Empress's dissaperance with some of Oramus's gifts. I wanted to be a dragon !


And exactly how disappointed was the ED really ?

I did it in the most badass, "balls of steel" style and laughed at him when he was killing me. Costed me all my WP, though to ignore all the pain nad stuff he did to make my Char cry like baby and beg. ST was showing us a lot of *.JPGs with how the ED was dissapointed. Good laugh it was.



Really, this I just got to hear...

Sure read the above, although it isn't as awesome when known. You have been warned.:smallamused:

Drascin
2011-03-14, 05:24 AM
Yes. Their charms are made by the Maidens, not by themselves.

Everyone else can make custom charms.

Of course, Sidereals can make custom Sidereal Martial Arts.

This is a tad more restricting than it sounds, though, because Sidereal Martial arts are both hard as hell to homebrew correctly, seem to always require a full CMA style as prerequisite, and seem to almost always have pretty steep Essence requirements. Having never seen a game go beyond Essence 4, the existence of Sidereal Martial Arts does not exactly comfort me :smallsigh:.

But yeah, what Tavar and Tonberrian said. Somehow, the "players can't make Sid Charms IC" seems to have been twisted into "NOBODY SHALL HOMEBREW SIDEREAL CHARMS ON PAIN OF DEATH" or something similar, given the usual reactions to people posting Sid charms in other forums... :smallconfused:

knightMARE
2011-03-14, 07:40 AM
Eclipse Caste Solar with both. :smallcool:

Or even better, Moonshadow Caste Abyssal with all three. :smalltongue:

Didn't even think of Abyssals, heh. Ontop of that, are there any CMA's that go well with the concept?

Tavar
2011-03-14, 10:27 AM
I think this was missed. in the shuffle.

Are their any firm rules regarding reflexive attacks? Or just what's in the Ink monkey charms that use them?



Didn't even think of Abyssals, heh. Ontop of that, are there any CMA's that go well with the concept?
I think there's one in GotMH: Luna. Crystal something or other.

SurlySeraph
2011-03-14, 12:41 PM
@^: Crystal Chameleon. Its shtick is moving fast, and stealth via filling the battlefield with brightly colored clouds and suchlike so no one can pick you out. Basically Disco Ninja Style. I'm not a big fan of it, but some people like it.

Also, on Sid charms, note that the nice thing Sidereals get is that there's plenty of rules precedent for martial arts that give you abilities that seem like they should be normal charms rather than MA charms. Citrine Poxes of Contagion Style has some medical charms that are much better than actual Sidereal Medicine, because it's about disease. Throne Shadow Style has excellent training charms and stealth-related charms, because it's about doing Sidereal-ish things that aren't actually in the Sidereal charmset. Dreaming Pearl Courtesan has good social abilities and also lets you turn into a flying gazellefish, because it's about social interaction and dignified combat, and those things apparently imply "flying gazellefish" to the writers.

Drascin
2011-03-15, 06:44 AM
Crystal Chameleon is in GttMH: Maidens, not Luna, but otherwise, what they said. And it's even one of the most mechanically sound MA styles (as in, it actually works as written without fixes. Yes, in Exalted MA styles, this is rare enough to be considered a particularly good plus :smallsigh:). I've seen it used to great effect. You should give up any pretense at passing unnoticed when using it, though - it's not called Disco Ninja Style for nothing :smalltongue:

While we're talking about MA... I've been tempted lately to homebrew a Heavenly Dragon Style based on a certain character's (http://blogs.gamefilia.com/files/imce/u473998/kenshin_himura.jpg) signature style, but I'm just not certain it would fit very well. It's not trascendental and weird enough to be an SMA, and CMA are supposed to be a good deal weaker than Exalted Charms, while the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu list of techniques includes, among other nastinesses, an automatic nine-attack flurry and an ultmate attack that screws you over royally if it hits, and screws you only a little less if you block it. So I dunno whether to try to start writing it or not bother...

(You know, thinking of it that series does have a lot of interesting styles to crib from. Saito's philosophy and style could certainly make for the kind of MA style that the more ruthless and fast Soulsteel Alchemicals would use...)

Reynard
2011-03-15, 08:10 AM
It's not trascendental and weird enough to be an SMA, and CMA are supposed to be a good deal weaker than Solar Exalted Charms,

Fixed that for you. All CMAs were supposed to be balanced in power against the Lunar charmset.

I say supposed, because they're often nowhere near it, one one side or the other.


And, again, speaking of CMAs, I've been scratching my head trying to turn some of the D&D 3.5 Tome of Battle Disciplines into CMAs. I've got a couple of charms down for most of them, but can't really decide on one to focus on.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-15, 08:12 AM
Fixed that for you. All CMAs were supposed to be balanced in power against the Lunar charmset.

Or rather, slightly lower than the Lunar Charm set. More balanced against Alchemicals, in an ideal world, since Terrestrials, spirits and Dragon Kings can access it, who should not be as good as a Lunar in his focused field.

Drascin
2011-03-15, 08:38 AM
Fixed that for you. All CMAs were supposed to be balanced in power against the Lunar charmset.

I say supposed, because they're often nowhere near it, one one side or the other.

Really? I've mostly heard they are supposed to be weaker than Lunar and Sidereal, but higher than Terrestrial.

And yeah, that's part of the problem - we don't have much in the way of baselines for comparison, no :smallsigh:

As for the ToB disciplines - I'd focus on Tiger Claw first. Dual-wielding is sadly underrepresented in Exalted, and having more and better savage-type martial styles would make so many Full Moons happy campers :smallbiggrin:

Reynard
2011-03-15, 09:29 AM
Really? I've mostly heard they are supposed to be weaker than Lunar and Sidereal, but higher than Terrestrial.

And yeah, that's part of the problem - we don't have much in the way of baselines for comparison, no :smallsigh:

As for the ToB disciplines - I'd focus on Tiger Claw first. Dual-wielding is sadly underrepresented in Exalted, and having more and better savage-type martial styles would make so many Full Moons happy campers :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, that's one of the ones that I've made the most progress on. The issue with it is the main lines of attack in Tiger Claw are "Jump against their AC and get bonus damage" And "flurry like a madman."

There are about 5 maneuvers for each of them, but making charms of each would bloat the style too much. I could make one charm of each and use all of Tiger Claw's boosts and such for the rest of the style. Or make charms that get more powerful as you increase in Essence, but doing that in an MA strikes me as off.

But the real problem is working out how the leap attack charms would actually work.
Roll Str+Athletics against their Parry DV? Would likely never work.
Compare total Str+Athletics total (as jumping is normally calculated) against Parry DV? Seems a bit much.

Bleh.

Drascin
2011-03-15, 09:58 AM
Don't just focus on the attacks - Martial Arts styles have a lot more that attacks and Tiger Claw does have sweet boosts. Let's just think what Tiger Claw is about: savagery, dual-wielding, death-of-a-thousand-cuts, and mobility through insane jumping capability (it's not a coincidence that a Tiger Claw boost is basically the same as a Solar Athletics Charm).

So, rather than convert each attack, let's keep the essence of the style. As I envision it... it probably begins with a Charm that helps with jumping and a charm that helps with dual-wielding, then each of these goes to their respective attack style (Death-From-Above and Dual-Madness Flurrying), then the Form, which could be some kind of "enter wild state of mind" with effects not unlike Blood in the Water or similar stances (say, each hit that causes at least 1 level of damage gives you bonuses for a few actions. Dynamic Form activated from wounding an enemy, of course), and then after Form some upgrade charms to the pre-form ones finishing in a crazy flurrying capstone. I dunno, that's just the first schematic that comes to mind. About nine or ten Charms in the tree, all told.

About the jumping attacks... well, the main effect of "Jump against AC" is that it's a simple way of making hitting much easier, because in D&D skills go much higher. So, instead of porting it directly, we could maybe roll with the "jumping leopard is hard to stop" vibe and play it as the jump making it harder to defend? Say, when you use the charm and jump, roll Strength+Athletics before rolling attack, and the number of successes becomes an external penalty to the opponent's DV for your attack? Again, dunno, just rattling what first comes to mind.

Reynard
2011-03-15, 10:08 AM
Don't just focus on the attacks - Martial Arts styles have a lot more that attacks and Tiger Claw does have sweet boosts.Oh I know. It's more that it has so many attacks that do similar things. I've got a scene-long charm that effectively gives you Scent. I'd say about 5 charms are finished, and 3 more are sketched out.


Let's just think what Tiger Claw is about: [snip]

Cool ideas, thanks. The TWF aspect is important, something which I had tried to help Solars with already*, but I agree that others need the help. Maybe I'll post what I've got so far in the Homebrew Forum later.

*Shameless plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181211)

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-15, 10:51 AM
Guys! I need something to reinvigorate my appreciation for Exalted!

Maybe it's because it's been three years since I started playing it almost exclusively, but I'm kind of getting tired of the setting. And the mechanics. I like reading about them, but the thought of playing the game gets me slightly down, because I can no longer come up with stuff that looks like fun and would actually be fun or viable in Exalted. And heavily modifying the setting so things are fresher no longer looks as fun as it once did.

Basically, I've become cynical where playing Exalted is concerned. What do I do?

Kyeudo
2011-03-15, 11:47 AM
Guys! I need something to reinvigorate my appreciation for Exalted!

Maybe it's because it's been three years since I started playing it almost exclusively, but I'm kind of getting tired of the setting. And the mechanics. I like reading about them, but the thought of playing the game gets me slightly down, because I can no longer come up with stuff that looks like fun and would actually be fun or viable in Exalted. And heavily modifying the setting so things are fresher no longer looks as fun as it once did.

Basically, I've become cynical where playing Exalted is concerned. What do I do?

Honestly, I understand where you are coming from. The longer the line goes, the more baggage the system picks up and it gets frustrating. I think its that the more stuff they fill in, the more things that they put in that bugs me. I hate the Daystar. I hate Lytek.

My way of coping is to ignore anything that bugs me.

DeadManSleeping
2011-03-15, 11:59 AM
Guys! I need something to reinvigorate my appreciation for Exalted!

Maybe it's because it's been three years since I started playing it almost exclusively, but I'm kind of getting tired of the setting. And the mechanics. I like reading about them, but the thought of playing the game gets me slightly down, because I can no longer come up with stuff that looks like fun and would actually be fun or viable in Exalted. And heavily modifying the setting so things are fresher no longer looks as fun as it once did.

Basically, I've become cynical where playing Exalted is concerned. What do I do?

Try playing Exalted in Strands of Fate: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189785

It's a completely different type of mechanic that still works for Exalted, and you've got pretty free reign on setting when you don't have to deal with the rulebooks also dictating the setting. And the best part is that, because of the mechanics, things which were once rather non-viable in Exalted are totally doable. You get to try something fresh! I know I'd play one of these so I could actually play a Solar who summons sun-energy weapons and have it WORK without me investing a tonbunch of effort.

Other than that...TRY PLAYING SOMETHING ELSE. Seriously, there are so many other RPGs out there that you should give a good chance. I'd find my RPG life dreadfully dull if I were even a little system-exclusive. With flexibility, I can play in pretty much any setting, with pretty much any type of mechanic. High sci-fi space opera with a focus on finding new frontiers? Doable. No-fantasy alternate history politics game? I've still got options. Find something else that strikes your fancy and just do it. Maybe it'll be something close to Exalted in tone, or in mechanics. Maybe it'll be something completely different. It doesn't matter. Just play something else.

The Rose Dragon
2011-03-15, 12:04 PM
The problem is finding someone who plays the systems I like that aren't Exalted or M&M. They tend to be so obscure and I can't find a recruiting game for any of them.

Tavar
2011-03-15, 12:05 PM
Hasn't Lytek been in the setting for a long time? And isn't he pretty unobtrusive? I mean, I can kinda understand not liking the Daystar stuff, as it really changes a lot in the setting, even if I like it. But to me, Lytek's always seemed pretty tame/integral.

But, yeah, The Rose Dragon, variety is the spice of life, and if you eat your favorite food 24/7, you'll soon grow tired of it, if not actually hating it.



The problem is finding someone who plays the systems I like that aren't Exalted or M&M. They tend to be so obscure and I can't find a recruiting game for any of them.
Try making one, then. Or a thread in this section, about the games. Sometimes people just need a push.