General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Jokasti]

Thread to discuss White Wolf's RPG Exalted. Talk about characters, homebrews, recruiting games, theory, why Abyssals suck so much, or where in the South you can get some gems without anyone asking too many questions.
Reynard's Sheets:
Solar, Abyssal and Infernal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:

Motivation:

Urge [If Infernal]

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 28
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots, and Abilities can be raised to 5 without BP)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability/Yozi
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) [(Permanent Essence x3)+Willpower]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x7)+Willpower)+Sum of Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Lunar SheetName:
Caste:
Spirit Animal:
Anima:
Tell:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8 [9 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6 [7 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4 [5 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
[Note: Place [C]aste and [F]avoured tags, for clarity. Casteless do not get Caste abilities, obviously]
(Specializations +)

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [F]avoured tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 25 [28 If using Peter Schaefer's rules]
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)

Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Thrown
War

Integrity
Performance
Presence
Resistance
[F]Survival

Craft
Investigate
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Larceny
Stealth

Bureaucracy
Linguistics
Ride
Sail
Socialize
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]
Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms and Knacks
Attribute
Excellencies
[Charms]

Knacks:
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat:

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3
Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [Permanent Essence+(Willpower x2)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x4)+Willpower x2)+Highest Virtue x4]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Sidereal SheetName:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Anima:
Anima Power:

Motivation:

Faction:

Background:

Attributes
Primary (Physical/Social/Mental): 8
Secondary (Physical/Social/Mental): 6
Tertiary (Physical/Social/Mental): 4

Physical:
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social:
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●
Abilities (Specializations +)
[Note: Place [A]uspicious and [F]avoured (You get four) tags, for clarity.]
Total without BP/XP: 35, with at least 15 in Auspicious and Favoured.
(If using Dawn Solution rules, 4 free specialty dots)
Caste Requirements:
The character must have at least Awareness ••, Bureaucracy ••, Linguistics (Old Realm) •, Lore •••, Martial Arts ••, Occult ••, Socialize •, Stealth • and at least one dot in Archery, Melee or Thrown. There are additional restrictions based on caste:

Chosen of Journeys must have Athletics ••, Linguistics (Old Realm and an appropriate additional language) ••, Resistance ••, Survival •• and Ride or Sail •••.

Chosen of Serenity must have either Craft or Performance ••, Linguistics •• (focusing on eloquent speaking and writing rather than languages), Medicine ••, Presence •• and Socialize •••.

Chosen of Battles must have Archery or Melee •••, Athletics ••, Dodge ••, Presence •• and War ••.

Chosen of Secrets must have Awareness ••, Investigation •••, Larceny ••, Socialize •• and Stealth ••.

Chosen of Endings must have Awareness ••, Dodge ••, Integrity ••, Martial Arts ••• and Stealth ••.
Journeys
Resistance:
Ride:
Sail:
Survival:
Thrown:

Serenity
Craft:
Dodge:
Linguistics:
Performance:
Socialize:

Battles
Archery:
Athletics:
Melee:
Presence:
War:

Secrets
Investigation:
Larceny:
Lore:
Occult:
Stealth:

Endings
Awareness:
Bureaucracy:
Integrity:
Martial Arts:
Medicine:
Backgrounds, Artifacts and Equipment:
Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:
Artifact: X [What it is], fluff name
Important features.
[Source]

Manse: X
Stone: [Which Hearthstone] (Location, if socketed) [Source]
Creation Points: [(Value of Manse x2)+bonus from Manse Flaws]
> [List what the points are spent on]

Resources: X
Reason for value
> [List of purchases, and sources]
Charms
Ability
Excellencies
[Charms]
Combos:

Combat Stats:
Join Combat: 9 +1 Sux

Attacks:Hands:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+1)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)+2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 3

Feet:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+3B] | Parry DV: [(((Dex+Ability)-2)= X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers] | Rate: 2

Clinch:
Acc: X [(((Dex+Martial Arts)+0)+Any other dice bonuses)] | Damage: [Str+0B] | Parry DV: - | Rate: 3

Dodge DV: X [((((Dex+Ability)+Essence)+Bonus Dice From Equipment) = X /2 round up) = Base + Modifiers]

Permanent Charms (Effects)

Soak:
Bashing: [((Stamina+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Lethal: [(((Stamina /2)+Armour)+Any other Modifiers)]
Aggravated: [Armour+Any other Modifiers)]

Hardness:
Bashing: [Highest value from any source]
Lethal: [Highest value from any source]
Aggravated: [Highest value from any source]

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV: [((((Willpower+Integrity)+Relevant Specialty)+Essence)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round up) + Any other bonuses.]
Charisma Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Charisma+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Charisma+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
Manipulation Parry MDV:
>Presence: [(((Manipulation+Presence)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]
>Performance: [(((Manipulation+Performance)+Relevant Specialty)+Any other dice modifiers) /2 round down) + Any other bonuses.]

Virtues:
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Virtue Flaw/Flawed Virtue:

Intimacies:

Languages:
??? (Native)

Willpower: ●●●●●

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(Permanent Essence x2)+(Willpower)]
Peripheral: Current (Max) (Value Attuned) [(((Permanent Essence x6)+Willpower 2)+Sum of all Virtues]
Bonus Points and XP:
Bonus Points:

Total: 15/15 (18/18 If using Dawn Solution rules.) | Flaws:

[B]Experience Points. Spent: X | Left: Y | Total: Z
Currently Recruiting Games:
The Black Walls of Jet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185896)
Unnamed Mixed Game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185458)
A War of Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186288)
High essence game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186361)
There Is No Teacup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187077)

List of Previous Threads:
General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172007)

Useful Links:
Exalted Character Repository (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186758)

Props to Golentan for this incarnation's title.

[golentan]

From the last thread:


Well, until that loophole is formally closed, we have evidence that Primordials can in fact become immune to their weaknesses.

Well, the thing to remember about the ebon dragon is that his weakness was his own deliberate fault the whole time, given that he literally invented the concept and embodiment of goodness so that he'd have something to pick on.

And possibly because he's incapable of doing anything without stabbing somebody in the back and he considers himself a valid and comical target.

[GryffonDurime]

The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.

[Xefas]

The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.

Wait, wait, wait. You're not done dealing out knowledge yet.


Wouldn't they have had to come into existence, as Primordials, with the Essence 10 charm that says "I am a Primordial", though? Which, coincidentally, also invalidates the existence of their mote expander and essence hopper?

I need to know things. I have conjectures. Reveal to me your brain secrets.

[Primal Fury]

Wait... Immunity? Ebbie still suffers from his Greater Imperfection even if Sol is dead. The Yozi are never truly invulnerable. Cecelyne still has that whole "Imperfection against that which strikes the immaterial" thing, you can surprise She Who Lives then gank her, and Malfeas has more than one jouten which is not a city, so all you need to do is Heaven Thunder Hammer the Brass Dancer into Cecelyne and you're good to go (relatively speaking).

As for Adorjan... hell if I know.

[SurlySeraph]

Well, the thing to remember about the ebon dragon is that his weakness was his own deliberate fault the whole time, given that he literally invented the concept and embodiment of goodness so that he'd have something to pick on.

And possibly because he's incapable of doing anything without stabbing somebody in the back and he considers himself a valid and comical target.

That's my point, though. Even the Primordial who regularly betrays himself can apparently overcome his weakness, so logically other Primordials can overcome their weaknesses, so a GSP who turns into a Primordial would have some hefty advantages over Exalts who aren't Primordials - and certainly wouldn't make himself weaker by becoming a Primordial. Wasn't that what we were arguing about?

[golentan]

The Aidenweiss and Should the Sun Not Rise are indeed the examples I had in mind. The fluff is more proof that the Ebon Dragon doesn't know that either of those are options...because the Sun's death is already hypothetical territory. Nothing really changes. Holy no longer works, but Ebsie's Perfect will still fail in the face of functional Holy Charms.

Also because he has the greater imperfection, meaning anyone who has a single dot of willpower and a single dot of any virtue can force him to hemorrhage motes and/or has free access to perfect defenses against all his attacks.

Whereas a master of Crane Style can freely fold him up, feed him to himself, and pull him out the other end without breaking a sweat. Solo, with no fear of ever being harmed, or any expenditure of motes past their first action so long as they keep stunting.

Seriously, mortals can beat him up. It takes a lot of them, and they can't force him to stay down, but they *can* pound him flat. He's a pathetic, pathetic so and so. God I hate him. Not even the decency to be a terrifying villain.

[Primal Fury]

Whereas a master of Crane Style can freely fold him up, feed him to himself, and pull him out the other end without breaking a sweat. Solo, with no fear of ever being harmed, or any expenditure of motes past their first action so long as they keep stunting.
How does that work? It's been a while since I've had a good look at Crane Style.

[golentan]

How does that work? It's been a while since I've had a good look at Crane Style.

Crane style form: Any time you stunt, any stunt involving martial arts without a weapon, you can choose to regain a compassion channel. 6m.

Kindly Sifu's Quill: Using a compassion channel no longer costs willpower while in crane style form. Free permanent boost.

Ebon dragon: Attacks. I am the ebon dragon, muahaha, suffer and die as I eat this baby etc. etc.

Crane style master: Compassion channel stunt defense acts as perfect defense with no cost and no loss of compassion channels (1 spent 1 gained). Retaliates with compassion channel stunt offense: Ebon dragon loses massive motes/health levels, no cost and no loss of compassion channels (1 spent 1 gained). Also compassion gets added to the damage, and stunt dice are all doubled.

[GryffonDurime]

I need to know things. I have conjectures. Reveal to me your brain secrets.

I have three answers to the problem presented. One of them is absolute tripe (but fun!), one is elegant but completely unsupported by the fluff, and the third is a postulate extracted from what we know. In order:

1) There is no such thing as simultaneous. Events occur, one by one, albeit on an immensely small scale for time. A Primordial is nothing but their Charms, and so for a Primordial to exist, its Charms must exist. This means that there is a moment pre-Primordial wherein its Charms do not exist from a cosmological standpoint. How do we know this is a meaningful description? Solars, mostly, thanks to Primordial Principle Emulation. Say a hypothetical, Great Curse-free, time travelling Solar (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rebCAeKdUmU/Sw1_tiawY_I/AAAAAAAAAEI/fEgXdfqyCQM/s1600/matt-smith-dr-who1.jpg) went all the way back to Time Not. He spends some time learning Primordial Principle Emulation...but it's like inventing the satellite dish when nothing's being broadcast. A moment afterwards...oh, let's say Adrian, the River of All Torments, bursts forth from non-existence. We know she exists; she is a being composed of Charms, and therefore her Charms are now viable options for PPE and our Solar buddy.

What this means for us is that the birth of a Primordial is a single instant--but nothing, as I said, is really simultaneous. Theoretically, a Primordial's existence DEMANDS (Primordial) Cosmic Principle. But learning that requires the purchase of the Primordial's First Excellency in addition to an Essence attribute of 10. We've got a Paradox--can't exist until Cosmic Principle (at least, in the sense of awakening as a full Primordial) and can't learn that without being, in some ways, a being with Attributes and other Charms.

So we have two possibilities: Yozi come into being fully formed, an utter paradox unto themselves OR a Yozi is, in some way, an ascended being who existed in some smaller, non-Primordial state of flux before burning their legend unto the stratas of reality. If they're fully formed...then they're story fiat already, as they lack causation. If they're ascended, even just from something we might call a Proto-mordial, perhaps a knot of Wyld Essence with crude shape and agency akin to a rudimentary raksha, then they could very well have developed Charms before reaching Cosmic Principle-status.

2) The first Green Sun Princes invented them; they've just reached quick saturation. Not terribly useful for the Primordials, but for their servants, highly covetable. This is a stupid answer, because Malfeas' expander is almost certainly the root of his "I have two Fetiches!" tree.

3) They're obsolete but foundational technology. Malfeas wanted two Fetiches, and when he reached into his cosmological principle and pulled out the first step in that, it was a mote expander. It's generally frowned upon for Charms to make earlier purchases obsolete, but it happens--especially when you're comparing an existence-altering E10 Permanent effect with an E2-3 Charm. If a Primordial came into existence as an E10 bearer of Cosmic Principle...then why even invent E2 Charms? You -can- start trees at higher Essence, but there is a heavy implication that the tree-structure of Charms is an inherent limitation that can't be circumvented: if you want this cool E10 thingy, it's going to have to build off lots of things...and even if your little subsoul motepool Charm is no longer 100% meaningful, it provides conceptual space and design space in which effects can expand and grow into something terrible. Additionally, we haven't seen anyone else's Cosmic Principle, and while all these Charms that define the Primordial condition will be similar across the board, I bet dollars to donuts that they're not identical. Malfeas likely has a larger mote pool than the Ebon Dragon. And I bet he can jump-start himself with upgrades to his obsolete mote-expander. Cythrea, for example, is supposed to have an embarrasing number of motes, but not much to spend it on--the freelancers have said that the act of Creating Creation was something on an order far beyond a single kilomote, and that Cythrea provided the raw energies necessary. This implies that her Cosmic Principle is different...or that one can retain mote-pool extenders...or that...

...well, the point is, we have no definite answers. But come to think of it, there is a fourth option.

4) Samsara did it. Saw Infernals. Wanted them to be playable.

[SurlySeraph]

EDIT: Sidereal'd by golentan. By 6 minutes.

Crane Style has charms that let you recover a Compassion channel instead of motes when you stunt, and not need to spend Willpower to channel Compassion. Its capstone is a permanent Holy charm that drains the target's Willpower. The ED's perfect defenses don't work against Holy attacks, and channeling a Virtue makes defenses against him become perfect. So a Crane Stylist gets all the PDs he wants and the ED can't use PDs against him.

I suppose the ED could flurry a lot to make the Crane Stylist use a lot of PDs and so run out of virtue channels other than however many Compassion channels he can recover each action, and try to make more attacks per round than his target can recover Compassion channels. And I think there's some dispute over whether you can in fact recover an infinite number of Compassion channels a day with Crane Style. Ebbie's still in trouble, though.

[GryffonDurime]

That's my point, though. Even the Primordial who regularly betrays himself can apparently overcome his weakness, so logically other Primordials can overcome their weaknesses, so a GSP who turns into a Primordial would have some hefty advantages over Exalts who aren't Primordials - and certainly wouldn't make himself weaker by becoming a Primordial. Wasn't that what we were arguing about?

Primordials can work to make their Lesser Imperfections inapplicable, yes. Was anyone arguing about this? It's not really a surprise. When the Ebon Dragon sees Holy, he flees. When you find a way to fight Malfeas in a not-city, he recognizes his vulnerability. But the thing is, Primordial Imperfections are, by nature, larger and more exploitable than Exalted Imperfections. Given the choice between any one Solar Perfect Defense and any Infernal Perfect Defense, the Solar wins hands-down. Their Flaws are just out and out more difficult to exploit...and less iconic. But once an Infernal starts purchasing multiple Perfects, they get an arguable (and expensive) edge that provides them with redundant options. Sure, your attack might be Holy, but are we in a city/have I ever seen that Charm before? If yes, then you're in trouble.

Exalts -DO- make themselves weaker by becoming a Primordial...if your definition of a Primordial is someone with (Me) Cosmic Principle. They're throwing away the ability to layer those redundant defenses/access to Solar or Abyssal perfects. A GSP who's taken the Devil-Tiger route is still an Exalt, until they kill themselves and lose access to Yozi Charms other than their own. That's the important distinction: they're learning Charms of a Primordial who only tangentially exists, but they're still, for the important considerations, Exalts.

[Xefas]

I have two answers to the problem presented. One of them is absolute tripe (but fun!), one is elegant but completely unsupported by the fluff, and the third is a postulate extracted from what we know. In order:

Why is #1 tripe? I like #3 better, but #1 doesn't seem particularly bad. Unless you meant "tripe" as in your explanation is delicious like sheep stomach, in which case that would make more sense.

Also, I like that your original post said you had two answers, you summarized three, and then you gave four. It seemed strangely appropriate to the subject matter.

Now I must ponder these things.

[GryffonDurime]

Why is #1 tripe? I like #3 better, but #1 doesn't seem particularly bad.

It had a much triper digression originally.


Also, I like that your original post said you had two answers, you summarized three, and then you gave four. It seemed strangely appropriate to the subject matter.


Samsara failed math.

[SurlySeraph]

Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?

[tonberrian]

Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?


The Charm cascades of the Yozis should be used
as an example of what is appropriate for this new
Charm tree (the majority of its Charms exist in the
Essence 2-3 range, all perfect defenses share a single
customized Imperfection, and so forth).

Well, sort of.

[GryffonDurime]

Ah, I missed that ascending requires them to give up Yozi Charms other than their own, preventing them from getting as much broad applicability. Are there guidelines that prevent you from having a very rarely applicable flaw, or a flaw based on a principle that you created by becoming a Primordial and that is thus very hard for anyone else to understand and exploit?

Tonberrian's got the right of it, but it's kind of in the same vein as:

"Is there a rule against a Solar inventing a Charm with an utterly inapplicable Flaw?"

It's Good Design being Good Design and Bad Design being Bad Design. A new Devil-Tiger Prince can certainly have a strange flaw, one that requires very real effort to discover. But the Flaw should still be roughly equal to those of the Yozi, in the same way that Solars will never invent a flawless, spammable 1m Perfect Defense that doesn't count as Charm activation.

[tonberrian]

Tonberrian

*gains a point of Limit*

Also, the Christmas! It's gone!

[Xefas]

So, "The Song of the Shadow" is an Essence 10 charm that allows an Infernal to create Celestial (Solar-level, t'boot) Exalted. As many as they feel like, albeit only upon people willing to give up their free will in exchange for superpowers and not being a worthless dirt farmer anymore (I'm sure the line will be very short). This charm has six prerequisites, starting at Essence 6 and going up from there.

Where exactly would you put a charm for making essentially Terrestrial-but-using-my-third-circle-souls-instead-of-the-elemental-dragons-as-a-template Exaltations?

What about the ability to make, say, 100 shard-based Exaltations, but with the same level of power as Terrestrials?

[GryffonDurime]

*gains a point of Limit*

...Quai? I am confused. Did I use UMI, then?

[SurlySeraph]

Got it. Thanks.

Also, this conversation reminded me of another thing I loved in RotSE.
The suggested possibilities for the Ebon Dragon's fetich soul, because they a) let all kinds of groups have interesting fights against it, even mortals since it can be totally pathetic by Exalted standards, and b) open up tons of plot ideas.
I especially like the idea of his fetich having really high virtues as a self-betrayal, particularly because my first thought on reading it linked into the aforementioned replacing-the-Unconquered-Sun issue. The King Is Dead can't be used to turn a demon into a god, but there's a Sidereal charm that lets you turn a demon into a god, so you'd just use that first. I can't think of a better way to torment the ED than to make his own fetich into a new UCS that's really good and loyal at its job.

[tonberrian]

...Quai? I am confused. Did I use UMI, then?

Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.

[GryffonDurime]

So, "The Song of the Shadow" is an Essence 10 charm that allows an Infernal to create Celestial (Solar-level, t'boot) Exalted. As many as they feel like, albeit only upon people willing to give up their free will in exchange for superpowers and not being a worthless dirt farmer anymore (I'm sure the line will be very short). This charm has six prerequisites, starting at Essence 6 and going up from there.

Where exactly would you put a charm for making essentially Terrestrial-but-using-my-third-circle-souls-instead-of-the-elemental-dragons-as-a-template Exaltations?

What about the ability to make, say, 100 shard-based Exaltations, but with the same level of power as Terrestrials?

It doesn't make Exalted. It doesn't make Exalted -at all-. It makes Akuma...and really, the difference sounds naggling, but let's look:

Mortal Akuma gain access to "You" Charms from Essence 1-3. Being an Akuma doesn't let them gain any more Essence than usual, so reaching Essence 4 requires apotheosis into a spirit, which renders the Akuma-process invalid. Yes, you can create what are effectively infinite Half-Castes...but I'm betting an Essence 10 Solar can, too. At least until Mortal Akuma and Half Castes are beaten with the nerf stick they so rightly deserve.

Terrestrials...well, you can corrupt them, give them access to Primordial level Charms. It's an upgrade, but it's not quite creating a whole new class of Exalted, given that the Yozi already have this capability in setting and haven't been able to find all that many takers.

Making Exaltations...well, it requires more than just a Charm. We're not likely to ever SEE the exact process, because it is such a big mystery of the setting and we've slaughtered most of the mysteries to begin with. But it's a task of sufficient drain and difficulty that some of the most powerful beings in existence only did it once, to a limited quantity of individuals.

So...yeah. Not really applicable.

Edit: Akuma aren't really Solar level, either. Green Sun Princes are Solar-tier by virtue of having multi-Yozi access. Primordials are Solar-tier by virtue of infinite XP and Cosmic Principle benefits. Akuma generally occupy a level a half-step above their native tier.

[Kylarra]

For lunar akuma at least, in terms of sheer numbers, they're almost definitely on solar level. Not quite the versatility due to the whole Urge thing, but powerwise, they're definitely up there thanks to now being able to access SMAs and SCS.



Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.TONBERRIAN

[Xefas]

It doesn't make Exalted. It doesn't make Exalted -at all-. It makes Akuma...and really, the difference sounds naggling, but let's look:

The Lexicon bit in the Manual of Exalted Power: Infernal specifically classifies Akuma as Exalted. I'm not saying that point needs to be argued; just saying that that was where I was getting that choice of phrase.

(Also, as an aside, can you get Half-Infernals? I originally thought that Infernals just made Demonbloods, but I can't find anywhere in the Scroll of Heroes that says that Infernals don't just make Half-Infernals, complete with mortal babies learning Yozi charms.)

And I realize that making Exaltations is murdering more of the mystique of the setting and you Just Shouldn't Do It, and it's unspeakable taboo, and bad form, and bad design, and there are no actual guidelines, and that there are no actual guidelines for a reason, and that I should just let it go.

But still...educated guess? Wild conjecture? Psychotic ramblings?

(EDIT: This line of thinking is also how Solars got necromancy.)

[The Glyphstone]

Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.

tOnBErRiaN Because I'm curious what happens when you Limit Break

[GryffonDurime]

Custom Limit Break, dealing with capitalization.

If it's any consolation, I only did it because it was the start of a sentence.

With regards to Half-Infernals...we have no idea. Really, Akuma need to be entirely re-aligned to give us crunch that matches the provided fluff...fluff which claims that only Solar shards have the raw power to act as emulation-boxes for Primordial magic. But Akuma just throw that -all- out of whack.

[tonberrian]

TONBERRIAN


tOnBErRiaN

rage


If it's any consolation, I only did it because it was the start of a sentence.

that's no excuse! all capitalization should bow to my needs! soon, the entirety of the world shall know my wrath, as my chirality prohibition index prevents anyone from even conceptualizing those intolerable uppercase letters, and the world will be mine! you will live to see the end of days, and you all will know that it. is. your. fault.

[SurlySeraph]

So, more like Capitalization Prohibition Index. Which I'm defying in its very name. Teehee.

*runs away using custom Malfeas stealth charms, aka "YOU ALL GO BLIND UNTIL I'M NOT HERE ANYMORE."*

[TheCountAlucard]

Hey, guys!

So, since two of the players dropped, I decided to ask Ossa's player (from the Vampire game) to join. So, we'll be adding a Night caste to the circle. An assassin, ooh!. :smalltongue: And we're starting next Saturday! :smalleek:

[Jokasti]

I need to read Infernals again. And purchase BWC. There may be hope for evil exalts yet.

[tonberrian]

infernals are like candy. delicious, delicious candy. the fact that they can turn other people into candy just makes them all the more sweet.

[Tavar]

I need to read Infernals again. And purchase BWC. There may be hope for evil exalts yet.

Huh? Wouldn't Abyssals fulfill that need just as well?

Plus, the fact that any type of exalt can be good or evil.

[Jokasti]

You there!
Yes, you!
Run an Infernals game!


Huh? Wouldn't Abyssals fulfill that need just as well?

Plus, the fact that any type of exalt can be good or evil.

No. Abyssals aren't evil. They try to be, but they aren't.
And yes, I'm talking about the group as a whole being evil. Like, thematically. You know what I mean.

[Xefas]

I need to read Infernals again. And purchase BWC. There may be hope for evil exalts yet.

Are Infernals Evil? (http://nobilis.me/quotes:are-infernals-evil)

Yes, you need to read Infernals again. They are the Everclear to the Abyssal's Thunderbird. In that both are disgusting, but Everclear is so awesome that it's illegal in 14 states, and Thunderbird is hobo wine. Actually, I think my metaphor has gotten away from me.

The point is that Infernals are awesome.

[SurlySeraph]

I like Abyssals more than Infernals, though since I haven't read most of Infernals yet that may be unfair. And I may be biased since I love the whole champions-of-death theme.

Also, new avatar, by someone who works extremely fast.

[Tavar]

No. Abyssals aren't evil. They try to be, but they aren't.
Oh? Why not? I mean, they don't have to be, but they're very good at killing things/bringing and end to everything.


And yes, I'm talking about the group as a whole being evil. Like, thematically. You know what I mean.

Actually, I don't.

[TheCountAlucard]

You there!
Yes, you!
Run an Infernals game!I need BWC first. :smallyuk:

[Mr.Bookworm]

The suggested possibilities for the Ebon Dragon's fetich soul, because they a) let all kinds of groups have interesting fights against it, even mortals since it can be totally pathetic by Exalted standards, and b) open up tons of plot ideas.
I especially like the idea of his fetich having really high virtues as a self-betrayal, particularly because my first thought on reading it linked into the aforementioned replacing-the-Unconquered-Sun issue. The King Is Dead can't be used to turn a demon into a god, but there's a Sidereal charm that lets you turn a demon into a god, so you'd just use that first. I can't think of a better way to torment the ED than to make his own fetich into a new UCS that's really good and loyal at its job.

Oh, yeah, I loved that section.

My personal favorite idea, that probably has gaping holes in it, is that the Unconquered Sun himself is Ebby's fetich. The creation story of Sol and how it affected the Ebon Dragon sounds literally point-for-point like a slightly stylized version of a Primordial creating his fetich.

EDIT:
I need BWC first.

It's five bucks (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=85732), go mug a hobo or something if you're that hard up for cash. :smalltongue:

[SurlySeraph]

So... so he tries to kill, and may successfully kill, his own fetich? That's so Ebon Dragon-like I can hardly stand it.

[tonberrian]

I need BWC first. :smallyuk:

i love my copy of the crane so much. best five dollars i've ever spent.

[Xefas]

You there!
Yes, you!
Run an Infernals game!

We need someone to run an Infernals game where everyone plays a Devil-Tiger, and they combine their powers to extract an Exaltation from someone without killing them, and then use it to go back in time and resurrect the Wolf That Devours All after the Unconquered Sun kills him, so that they can teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship without putting new charms in his tree or killing his fetich.



My personal favorite idea, that probably has gaping holes in it, is that the Unconquered Sun himself is Ebby's fetich.

The most obvious hole is the part where they kill the fetich of the Shadow of All Things (who is the one who made the Unconquered Sun) to make the Ebon Dragon in the first place.

[TheCountAlucard]

i love my copy of the crane so much. best five dollars i've ever spent.Aargh, my financial stuff! :smallfrown:

Stuuuuuuuuudent loooooooans!!!

[Jokasti]

Oh? Why not? I mean, they don't have to be, but they're very good at killing things/bringing and end to everything.

Actually, I don't.

My main problem with Abyssals is... they're Solars. Same reason I can't take drow seriously- the same- ONLY eVIL! And also more powerful, to make up for the fact that these guys are the same. And sure, they're good at killing things. So is every other type of exalt. Maybe hold the DBs. Basing an entire exalt type around something every character is expected to do, namely kill things, is ridiculous. It doesn't feel original. even Necromancy is like a mirror image or Sorcery, with a handful of things it can't do to compesate. Necrotech is kind of cool, but it's just death-themed Magitech.
WW took Solars, painted it black, slapped a new name on it and called it "evil". You might as well just play a Solar with issues.

[Kris Strife]

the fact that they can turn other people into candy just makes them all the more sweet.

So Infernals are Majin Buu? (http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/224769-buu_candy_pop2_super.jpg)

[Mr.Bookworm]

So... so he tries to kill, and may successfully kill, his own fetich? That's so Ebon Dragon-like I can hardly stand it.

The Ebon Dragon is the sort of guy who would stab his own leg to teach it a lesson, yes.


We need someone to run an Infernals game where everyone plays a Devil-Tiger, and they combine their powers to extract an Exaltation from someone without killing them, and then use it to go back in time and resurrect the Wolf That Devours All after the Unconquered Sun kills him, so that they can teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship without putting new charms in his tree or killing his fetich.

The Ebon Dragon as a bubbly moe happy-go-lucky girl who gives speeches to the rest of the Primordials on Friendship and the Power of Love?

I can get behind this.


The most obvious hole is the part where they kill the fetich of the Shadow of All Things (who is the one who made the Unconquered Sun) to make the Ebon Dragon in the first place.

Not all Yozis suffered fetich death. The Ebon Dragon is one who explicitly did not.

There's a developer's essay floating around in here somewhere about why that misconception got started, and why it's been perpetuated.

[ShadowFighter15]

Hey, guys!

So, since two of the players dropped, I decided to ask Ossa's player (from the Vampire game) to join. So, we'll be adding a Night caste to the circle. An assassin, ooh!. :smalltongue: And we're starting next Saturday! :smalleek:

This reminds me, has anyone tried to stat out Ezio (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore) as a Night Caste? Even if it's just early-game Ezio where all he's got are two hidden blades, a short sword, a long sword and some throwing knives.

[Xefas]

So Infernals are Majin Buu? (http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/224769-buu_candy_pop2_super.jpg)

Actually...
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/MajinVegeta.png



Not all Yozis suffered fetich death. The Ebon Dragon is one who explicitly did not.

There's a developer's essay floating around in here somewhere about why that misconception got started, and why it's been perpetuated.

Ah, okay. That'd be an interesting read. Was it part of Ink Monkeys or was it just on the Exalted forum somewhere?

[SurlySeraph]

My main problem with Abyssals is... they're Solars. Same reason I can't take drow seriously- the same- ONLY eVIL! And also more powerful, to make up for the fact that these guys are the same. And sure, they're good at killing things. So is every other type of exalt. Maybe hold the DBs. Basing an entire exalt type around something every character is expected to do, namely kill things, is ridiculous. It doesn't feel original. even Necromancy is like a mirror image or Sorcery, with a handful of things it can't do to compesate. Necrotech is kind of cool, but it's just death-themed Magitech.
WW took Solars, painted it black, slapped a new name on it and called it "evil". You might as well just play a Solar with issues.

I see your point, but Solars don't have nearly as much hierarchy oppressing them, or have to think about getting out from under anyone's thumbs; they're usually the most powerful and independent people they know after they Exalt, instead of being chosen to be cogs in the plans of stronger beings. Despite the Great Curse, Solars also don't tend to get psyche-wrecking problems like "My wife died because I petted too many kittens."

Solars have the whole theme of boundless possibility and optimism. Abyssals aren't GRIMDARK opposites; they have lots of very difficult obstacles that they *can* overcome, raising interesting themes of compromise and acceptance, like how much you're willing to suffer through to do what you believe is the right thing or how you can rationalize going along with Oblivion.

[Jokasti]

I see your point, but Solars don't have nearly as much hierarchy oppressing them, or have to think about getting out from under anyone's thumbs; they're usually the most powerful and independent people they know after they Exalt, instead of being chosen to be cogs in the plans of stronger beings. Despite the Great Curse, Solars also don't tend to get psyche-wrecking problems like "My wife died because I petted too many kittens."

Solars have the whole theme of boundless possibility and optimism. Abyssals aren't GRIMDARK opposites; they have lots of very difficult obstacles that they *can* overcome, raising interesting themes of compromise and acceptance, like how much you're willing to suffer through to do what you believe is the right thing or how you can rationalize going along with Oblivion.

They're oppressed? Can we scream "whiney emo" any more, please?
I do like the oppression, though. Deathlords were a novel touch, and interesting pieces of the puzzle. And Abyssals aren't supposed to want to pet kittens, since they're cute and fluffy. And the only wives they would be getting are political moves they don't care about anyway, since what is caring in this bleak, depressing world?
Abyssals have obstacles just like every other type of exalt. Solars, Lunars, and Terrestrials all have to deal with the Scarlet empire, Siddies get to worry about Yu-Shan, and Infernals Malfeas.
Their only redeeming quality for me is that if they have the heart to put down their hummingbird-blood inkpen and beat poetry book they can become Curse-less Solars.

[Kris Strife]

Actually...
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/MajinVegeta.png

I think that might be a better example of an Akuma. :smalltongue:

[Xefas]

I think that might be a better example of an Akuma. :smalltongue:

Yes, absolutely. But you asked if "Infernals are Majin Buu".

Green Sun Princes can make akuma.
Tiny yellow man uses Majin Buu's power to make Vegeta into an akuma.
Vegeta is then an akuma.

It supports your theory.


They're oppressed? Can we scream "whiney emo" any more, please?

I'm just gonna throw this out there: I think it's what the Immaculates use to teach new trainees how to distinguish the differences between the various Solar types.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/SolarDistinctions.png
I like to think the Immaculates use a lot of Led Zeppelin and Metallica iconography in their training programs.
(Somewhere, The Rose Dragon is gaining resonance.)

[SurlySeraph]

Do the Immaculates even acknowledge the difference between Solars and Abyssals? I thought they filed them all under the same names.

[Xefas]

Do the Immaculates even acknowledge the difference between Solars and Abyssals? I thought they filed them all under the same names.

They do file them all under "Anathema". I was making a joke.

[SurlySeraph]

Oh, a joke. Those go through the Division of Serenity. I'll need you to fill out these forms and run them to the Cerulean Lute of Harmony before I'm authorized to laugh.

[golentan]

Okay, I'm going insane, and I have to ask.

Would anyone be willing to run a DB game? I've got a hankering to play an Immaculate martial artist and every game I'm in dies and leaves me sitting alone in an empty forum going "guys? Guys? I gave you a million chances beforehand to say you couldn't handle this, so I find the 17th iteration of 'midterms are harder than I thought' kind of unpalatable."

[Mr.Bookworm]

Ah, okay. That'd be an interesting read. Was it part of Ink Monkeys or was it just on the Exalted forum somewhere?

Found it! (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=10408051#post10408051)

[ShadowFighter15]

I take it my post got a bit buried in the earlier discussion?


This reminds me, has anyone tried to stat out Ezio (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore) as a Night Caste? Even if it's just early-game Ezio where all he's got are two hidden blades, a short sword, a long sword and some throwing knives.

[Xefas]

Found it! (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=10408051#post10408051)

That is kinda interesting. So, the only confirmed fetich kills are Malfeas, Adorjan, and Szorney - but the other Yozi are different from their pre-War selves because they lost plain ol' Third Circle Souls. That does make the Unconquered Sun creation story quite spooky.


I take it my post got a bit buried in the earlier discussion?

Alright. I googled [Ezio "Night Caste"] and got five hits. One was this thread, three of them didn't seem like useful hits, but one of them was this thread on the Exalted forums (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/37681.aspx?PageIndex=1) where they muse on statting up the assassins from Assassin's Creed.

[Kyeudo]

That is kinda interesting. So, the only confirmed fetich kills are Malfeas, Adorjan, and Szorney - but the other Yozi are different from their pre-War selves because they lost plain ol' Third Circle Souls. That does make the Unconquered Sun creation story quite spooky.


I think that Kimberry may have been confirmed as losing a fetich in CoCD: Malfeas, in Madelrada's entry.

[Lix Lorn]

Okay, I'm going insane, and I have to ask.

Would anyone be willing to run a DB game? I've got a hankering to play an Immaculate martial artist and every game I'm in dies and leaves me sitting alone in an empty forum going "guys? Guys? I gave you a million chances beforehand to say you couldn't handle this, so I find the 17th iteration of 'midterms are harder than I thought' kind of unpalatable."
Poor golly. I started one a while back. :smallfrown:

[ShadowFighter15]

Alright. I googled [Ezio "Night Caste"] and got five hits. One was this thread, three of them didn't seem like useful hits, but one of them was this thread on the Exalted forums (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/37681.aspx?PageIndex=1) where they muse on statting up the assassins from Assassin's Creed.

I tried googling that a while ago (can't remember when) and I don't think I found anything. Might've been the extra search options (I assume that's what the inverted commas around Night Caste are for) I didn't use. Anyway, thanks for that link. If they didn't come up with a build I might try my hand at it. It'd give me an excuse to get some use out of Anathema (a character-builder) since it doesn't support 2e Lunars, Abyssals, Sidereals, Alchemicals or Infernals. Only Solars and Dragon-Blooded so far. I think it's got all of them covered for first edition, but not second.

[Reynard]

I tried googling that a while ago (can't remember when) and I don't think I found anything. Might've been the extra search options (I assume that's what the inverted commas around Night Caste are for) I didn't use. Anyway, thanks for that link. If they didn't come up with a build I might try my hand at it. It'd give me an excuse to get some use out of Anathema (a character-builder) since it doesn't support 2e Lunars, Abyssals, Sidereals, Alchemicals or Infernals. Only Solars and Dragon-Blooded so far. I think it's got all of them covered for first edition, but not second.

Anathema hasn't been updated for the new char-gen rules, so it's even more worthless at the moment.

As for statting Ezio, I think I can do a good job. All you really need to do is find an artifact that replicates his hidden blades (There's one that fits perfectly in MoEP: Alchemicals), then go Night Caste and max Larceny, Awareness, and Athletics.

[ShadowFighter15]

Anathema hasn't been updated for the new char-gen rules, so it's even more worthless at the moment.

As for statting Ezio, I think I can do a good job. All you really need to do is find an artifact that replicates his hidden blades (There's one that fits perfectly in MoEP: Alchemicals), then go Night Caste and max Larceny, Awareness, and Athletics.

Actually; as of the 14th of November, everything that was in the Scroll of Errata (including all of the Dawn Solution stuff) was included. Says so right there in the news: http://anathema.sourceforge.net/ Solars and Dragon-Blooded have templates using the new character creation rules marked as Revised.

And the Alchemical artefact you're thinking of; is that the one where the picture shows the gauntlet and a knife in the user's hand? Because that's actually a throwing knife dispenser/sheath.

[Reynard]

You can also make melee attacks with them, so it's just a matter of a very simple stunt.

[ShadowFighter15]

True, but the knives from the bracer lack hilts and I imagine that a professional assassin - Exalt or no - would rather keep his fingers.

EDIT: I'd rather homebrew it or just use the stats for a switch-klaive and add an extra rule or two for concealment (unless the switch-klaive already has concealment rules, now to remember what book it was in).

EDIT2: Found the switchklave; Wonders of the Lost Age, page 76. Looks about right for a hidden blade basis, just need to tack on a few rules for extending and retracting it and it should look fine.

Shame I'm totally stumped on said rules.

[horngeek]

True, but the knives from the bracer lack hilts and I imagine that a professional assassin - Exalt or no - would rather keep his fingers.

EDIT: I'd rather homebrew it or just use the stats for a switch-klaive and add an extra rule or two for concealment (unless the switch-klaive already has concealment rules, now to remember what book it was in).

What the edit said, basically.

As for his skills? Thrown and Melee, I wouldn't go for more than that because that becomes a Dawn Caste with Night Caste abilities.

If we're talking Brotherhood Ezio, then he has to has Followers and Allies. But then again, Brotherhood Ezio would have a lot of exp points.

[ShadowFighter15]

I'm thinking of using Ezio as he was when he killed Vieri De'Pazzi as the base. He'd need a few dots in melee too, wouldn't he? He was still a skilled swordsman when it came right down to it. Plus he'd have to use that skill for any attacks with the hidden blades, even for a surprise assassination.

EDIT: Nevermind; I'm blind.

[Xefas]

I'm thinking of using Ezio as he was when he killed Vieri De'Pazzi as the base. He'd need a few dots in melee too, wouldn't he? He was still a skilled swordsman when it came right down to it. Plus he'd have to use that skill for any attacks with the hidden blades, even for a surprise assassination.

EDIT: Nevermind; I'm blind.

Keep in mind: I have never played Assassin's Creed, nor any game associated with it. I have never seen anyone play it, nor have I ever seen a trailer, cinematic, nor gameplay video of it. In fact, I didn't even know the name "Ezio" before you mentioned it (before then, I was firmly in the "I think Assassin's Creed is a pretty cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything" camp).

But, if this guy's main shtick is, for instance, Thrown, but you need the occasional Melee stab, or Martial Arts grapple, or War coordinated attack or what-have-you, then the charm Supreme Martial Instinct is right up your alley. It's a permanent War 4, Essence 3 charm that allows you to spend 1m, 1wp (this doesn't count as a charm activation) to count your highest of Melee/Archery/Thrown/Martial Arts/War as the stat for all of them, plus it allows you to use your Excellencies for that ability on the others as well, until your next turn.

(So, if "Ezio" has a Thrown of 5, he can use it to get Melee 5, Archery 5, Martial Arts 5, and War 5 until his next turn, plus use his Thrown Excellencies to augment his Melee, Archery, Martial Arts, and War actions.)

[ShadowFighter15]

Well thrown isn't that much of a thing with Ezio. Through the whole of Assassin's Creed 2, the only ranged weapons he gets are throwing knives and a concealable pistol (awfully advanced for the 1480s but where the design comes from makes perfect sense). In AC: Brotherhood (Ezio's other main game) he also got poison darts and a crossbow.

At the point in the game I mentioned; Ezio had a longsword, a short sword, the two hidden blades he's shown with in promotional artwork and some throwing knives. He's a skilled swordsman and a natural at moving undetected through crowds as well as a top-class free-runner.

So from that; all I've worked out for Abilities is decent Thrown, high Melee, high Stealth and high Athletics. Perception too because of Eagle Vision (and an assassin who doesn't notice much of what's going on around him doesn't last long).

EDIT: Not sure how often he'd use War and I'm not too familiar with War Charms beyond the one you mentioned and only because you told me about it.

[horngeek]

Perception, yes.

Larceny too. Remember, he does pickpocket.

I think you're right otherwise, though.

I do NOT believe he would use War. Possibly the training Charms in that tree IF we're talking Brotherhood Ezio, but otherwise, not really.

EDIT: Oh, right, Ink Monkeys.

While that's more used for the Dawn Castes, on reflection I think you're right. :smallsmile:

[ShadowFighter15]

Perception, yes.

Larceny too. Remember, he does pickpocket.

I think you're right otherwise, though.

I do NOT believe he would use War. Possibly the training Charms in that tree IF we're talking Brotherhood Ezio, but otherwise, not really.

Gah; how could I forget Larceny? That was one of my main source of income before the execution. Mainly because you didn't get Notoriety for it and I could walk right through a crowd of people and come out with all of their money.

That'd take, what, four dots to pull off in Exalted?

[potatocubed]

So, anyone know good alchemical charms for breaking clinches? My character (jade-caste brick) is plenty tough, but his low DVs mean that small children can clinch him into immobility with only a little effort.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the one that links to Dex + MA and makes sure I always have maximum MA. That would help with DVs and clinch escapes both, and has the advantage of not having any prereqs (I think).

Anyone know any others?

[The Rose Dragon]

(Somewhere, The Rose Dragon is gaining resonance.)

I don't have a Limit Track. I can't really gain Resonance.

((Though I can enter DRAGON KING RAGE!))

[Lix Lorn]

Really? With how much you like them, we thought you were an abyssal.
...
Or a deathlord.

[The Rose Dragon]

No, I'm pretty sure I'm an Anklok.

[Tavar]

That is kinda interesting. So, the only confirmed fetich kills are Malfeas, Adorjan, and Szorney - but the other Yozi are different from their pre-War selves because they lost plain ol' Third Circle Souls. That does make the Unconquered Sun creation story quite spooky.
Huh? What does it change from before?


Anathema hasn't been updated for the new char-gen rules, so it's even more worthless at the moment.
Well, if you use the Dreams of the First Age(revised) ones you get most of the new rules, but yeah, it's still not that useful.

[Jokasti]

I don't have a Limit Track. I can't really gain Resonance.

((Though I can enter DRAGON KING RAGE!))

Is that like BROOKLYN RAGE?

And I vaguely remember an Ezio expy applying to a game a while ago.

[The Rose Dragon]

And I vaguely remember an Ezio expy applying to a game a while ago.

That was me. The thread on White Wolf forums was also me. I used black widow razors for the hidden blades, if anyone is wondering.

[golentan]

Poor golly. I started one a while back. :smallfrown:

Could I join?

[Lix Lorn]

You can always beg the ST?

[Tavar]

Huh. Just to let people know, Anathema does now work with the newest Exalted Character generation guidelines. At least, for solars. Just choose Solar Exalted(revised).

[golentan]

Huh. Just to let people know, Anathema does now work with the newest Exalted Character generation guidelines. At least, for solars. Just choose Solar Exalted(revised).

Huh. Do they have infernals or alchemicals yet?

[Tavar]

No. At the moment it only has Solars, Dragonblooded, and Mortals. I think on the website it lists Abyssals as the next projected add on.

[Cyborg Mage]

I remember The Rose Dragon suggested a Pokemon expy campaign a while back. Can't remember if there is still any interest, but it will be homebrewed! (Tomorrow.)

[Tavar]

Not sure about others, but I'm still interested.

Also, does bureaucracy actually do anything in the game? Or is it entirely dependent on the St?

[Kyeudo]

Not sure about others, but I'm still interested.

Also, does bureaucracy actually do anything in the game? Or is it entirely dependent on the St?

As exists? It's mostly used by ghosts, who can use it as a combat ability with some Arcanoi. Otherwise, its whatever you can get out of your Storyteller.

[Xefas]

Not sure about others, but I'm still interested.

Also, does bureaucracy actually do anything in the game? Or is it entirely dependent on the St?

Well, there are dramatic rules for using it to evaluate goods. So, I guess it might be good for an Exalt who is 1) worried about money 2) predisposed towards seeking it through mercantile channels instead of, say, adventuring and 3) doesn't have one of those easy ways to get infinite munnies.

It is implied to be used for anything involving bribery, business, money, or that sort of thing. I think it's fairly important for Sidereals not to go to Super Jail for using their charms, as well.


Huh? What does it change from before?

The description of how a Primordial spits out a fetich soul and the story of how The Shadow That Was spat out the Unconquered Sun are very similar. Previously, I thought the connection would be invalidated by the fact that The Shadow That Was suffered fetich death to become the Ebon Dragon, yet Sol still lived. However, now I know that the Ebon Dragon has never suffered fetich death.

Given the Ebon Dragon's fascination with antagonism, it doesn't seem a huge leap to have his fetich defined as the purest possible antagonism to himself. He is a shadow, and his core is light to cast that shadow.

It's still unlikely; but kind of a cool theory.

[The Rose Dragon]

The description of how a Primordial spits out a fetich soul and the story of how The Shadow That Was spat out the Unconquered Sun are very similar. Previously, I thought the connection would be invalidated by the fact that The Shadow That Was suffered fetich death to become the Ebon Dragon, yet Sol still lived. However, now I know that the Ebon Dragon has never suffered fetich death.

Given the Ebon Dragon's fascination with antagonism, it doesn't seem a huge leap to have his fetich defined as the purest possible antagonism to himself. He is a shadow, and his core is light to cast that shadow.

It's still unlikely; but kind of a cool theory.

The Unconquered Sun was created by he who became Malfeas, at the urging of the Dragon's Shadow.

[horngeek]

It's still an awesome, awesome theory. :smallbiggrin:

[WalkingTarget]

Given the Ebon Dragon's fascination with antagonism, it doesn't seem a huge leap to have his fetich defined as the purest possible antagonism to himself. He is a shadow, and his core is light to cast that shadow.

It's still unlikely; but kind of a cool theory.

It was the assumption made by my old 1e ST, back in the day. I don't know if there was anything canonical to back it up at that point.

[Xefas]

The Unconquered Sun was created by he who became Malfeas, at the urging of the Dragon's Shadow.

No, The Sun was created by the Empyreal Chaos at the urging of the Dragon's Shadow. The Unconquered Sun was created directly by the Dragon's Shadow.

Here is the exact quote:

The creation of the Daystar gave him the context he needed to focus on the shape of his non-extant nemesis; to capture his derisive, self-righteous sneer and war-machine magnanimity and make them real. From the depths of his empty, wicked darkness, the Shadow of All Things synthesized his absolute polar opposite: a being of light, justice and hope, to be the spirit of the Daystar.

[Urpriest]

So I've heard it said that a Lunar is fine just using their claws with Claws of the Silver Moon, and that this is generally equal to most available artifact weapons. I'm probably missing something, but it looks pretty straightforwardly inferior to most options. Comparing to, for example, the Razor Claws, a starting Lunar will have less accuracy and pretty much equivalent damage. And the Razor Claws aren't that uber of a weapon compared to all the Grand-Gore-Whatsits, which seem to just straightforwardly outclass Lunar claws. Am I missing something? Clever application of mutations or the like?

[Tavar]

At the start they simply give +2 to accuracy and you add your strength twice for damage. That's pretty big. At essence 3(which is probably one of the first things you want to get), you instead add your dexterity to accuracy. That's really good. Even before elder essences that's probably +4-5 to accuracy. The next upgrade isn't anything special, just adding another 2 damage/1 to you minimum damage, but I think the absolute best thing about them is that they don't require you to carry around a big honking 'I'm an exalt' sign'. Plus, for 3 motes, they're dirt cheap. Well, 4m,1wp if you aren't using DBT, but really, who does that?

[ShadowFighter15]

Here's what I managed to work out for a Night Caste version of Ezio last night. Got stumped when I reached the charms and then realised it was ten past eleven at night. Didn't use Reynard's lists from the first page for simplicity (easiest to leave calculating DVs and such til last IMO). Also, I decided to leave most of the fluff aspects blank for now.

Attributes
Physical:
Strength ●●●
Dexterity ●●●●●
Stamina ●●●

Social:
Charisma ●●
Manipulation ●●
Appearance ●●●

Mental
Perception ●●●
Intelligence ●●●
Wits ●●●


Abilities
Caste:
Athletics: ●●●●
Awareness: ●●●●●
Dodge: ●●●●
Larceny: ●●●
Stealth: ●●●●

Favoured:
Melee: ●●●●
Thrown: ●●
Linguistics: ● ("There were a couple of French girls in Firenze.")
Lore: ● (Because of the stupid idea of characters being illiterate without a single dot of this)
Investigation: ●● (Possibly un-needed but he roughs a few people up for information in Brotherhood and eavesdrops on conversations in both games)

Specialities:
Stealth - Blending into crowds: ●●
Larceny - Pick-pocketing: ●●


Virtues (Not sure about Conviction, Temperance and Valor)
Compassion: ●● (He can't have any more than that or he'd have to constantly fail Compassion rolls to kill anyone, but he's still too caring to have only one dot)
Conviction: ●●●
Temperance: ●●
Valor: ●●

Willpower: ●●●●● ●●
Essence: ●●

Backgrounds
Artifact - Hidden Blades: ●●● (still haven't worked out the mechanics for them, but since switchklaves are two dots, I figured a pair of blades based on them would be three dots at least)
Artifact - Reaper Daiklave (Threw this one in because I had a spare background dot left after the Blades and this next one)
Resources - The Auditore Villa at Monteriggioni: ●●●● (maybe change this into a manse?)

Seven bonus points spent so far, some in Abilities and a few in Backgrounds. As I said, I got stumped when it came to Charms beyond the obvious (Stealth and/or Melee Excellencies).

Anyone disagree on some points or feel I messed up somewhere? This was done with Anathema, namely the new Solar template for the Dawn Solution's character creation rules.

[horngeek]

:smallconfused:

To be honest, the one dot of Linguistics as a Favored ability, or the dot of Lore as the same seems a bit of a waste. You don't put all your dots in Caste and Favored abilities, you know.

[ShadowFighter15]

Fair point, but I got stumped on what else to make a Favoured Ability.

EDIT: Plus I was already spending bonus points to get the dots in those. Might've put too many in the Caste Abilities but I wasn't sure how far to go without going overboard.

[Jokasti]

Abilities
Lore: ● (Because of the stupid idea of characters being illiterate without a single dot of this).

It's really not. Many of Creations mortal residents don't go to school, or have standardized learning. Sort of like medieval Europe, the commoners got by with simple math and memorizing things as opposed to writing them down.
Mask of Winters is fantastic at memorizing things.
I've thought about making a traveling scholar-tutor character whose Motivation is to increase Creations literacy rate.

[The Rose Dragon]

I wish someone would run a Dragon King game now. Preferably in the South or North, but East and West would also be acceptable, as long as I get to play a Dragon King.

[Kyeudo]

I once ran a "anything is allowed" game, but it died from lack of interest. Given the way that most games die, it would seem that people enjoy making characters more than playing them.

[Xefas]

Given the way that most games die, it would seem that people enjoy making characters more than playing them.

I think a game with a predetermined weekly time played over Skype voice chat would do well. The problem is getting five (that is, the full retinue of six people minus one for me) people without crippling social phobia on the internet. :smallannoyed: (<---this is my disapproval of your phobia)

It might also involve convening beforehand to discuss themes and build characters together so that they mesh easily and have all their bases covered.

[The Rose Dragon]

I think a game with a predetermined weekly time played over Skype voice chat would do well. The problem is getting five (that is, the full retinue of six people minus one for me) people without crippling social phobia on the internet. :smallannoyed: (<---this is my disapproval of your phobia)

Also, having all players in a single timezone, rather than scattered across different longitudes, so everyone can participate without having other issues come up.

[Kyeudo]

I do mostly PbP games here on the forum, and those you don't even need to coordinate schedules. I've got one game that is going for the long haul and all that it requires from my players is a willingness to post an update once a week. Yeah, the pace is slow, but real life gets in the way and you have to deal with that. We've been going for almost two years now.

For some reason, though, it seems that many people try a PbP game and can't deal with the slow pace and don't even bother to tell anyone they are dropping out. :smallannoyed: It kinda bugs me.

[Drascin]

Personally, I've found that most games I'm in die from sudden ST Existence failure. The ST just stops posting, and everyone is kind of left wondering "uhhh... so what do we do now...?" and the thing dies.

[The Rose Dragon]

For some reason, though, it seems that many people try a PbP game and can't deal with the slow pace and don't even bother to tell anyone they are dropping out. :smallannoyed: It kinda bugs me.

One thing I've figured out (after some painful experience) is not to demand too much, and not to make the players expect too much if you're the ST. As long as you post, the pace of posting doesn't matter as much as the quality of posting. And if you can post more often than usual, hey, bonus!

[IcarusWings]

I wish someone would run a Dragon King game now. Preferably in the South or North, but East and West would also be acceptable, as long as I get to play a Dragon King.

I second this motion, Mountain Folk too.

[Kyeudo]

One thing I've figured out (after some painful experience) is not to demand too much, and not to make the players expect too much if you're the ST. As long as you post, the pace of posting doesn't matter as much as the quality of posting. And if you can post more often than usual, hey, bonus!

Well, yeah, but when someone just suddenly stop posting, doesn't bother to tell anyone why they aren't posting, and then the game then goes a month without update because I was waiting for their character to respond, it kinda kills the game.

[Urpriest]

Well, yeah, but when someone just suddenly stop posting, doesn't bother to tell anyone why they aren't posting, and then the game then goes a month without update because I was waiting for their character to respond, it kinda kills the game.

From my limited PbP experience I get the impression that it's because they're waiting for you to do the same. In person social pressure and nonverbal cues determine who talks. In PbP whoever speaks up talks, and if you feel your character would be better served by responding to what someone else says nobody can make you speak first. So no one does. The same seems to go for plans.

[Lix Lorn]

My biggest failing is that I'm reactive, not proactive. Most of my characters are based on me, so I rarely talk without good reason...
But I have never dropped a game after it started. Not once!

[Tavar]

From my limited PbP experience I get the impression that it's because they're waiting for you to do the same. In person social pressure and nonverbal cues determine who talks. In PbP whoever speaks up talks, and if you feel your character would be better served by responding to what someone else says nobody can make you speak first. So no one does. The same seems to go for plans.

Oh, this it very true. Though sometimes, I think it's because they're unsure of what to say, and while in person they would be attempts to talk, stuttering, and the like, in text it's more likely to just end in silence. For instance, in a nation-building play by post game I'm running, an NPC basically said "hey, here's the kingdom, what do you want to do?". No movement in the thread for awhile, and I asked what was going on. One player said that his character wouldn't respond to this at all.

It got me to thinking, and it's made me a bit more proactive in some of the other games I'm in.

[Weimann]

I would very much like to play a PbP/MSN/Skype game of Exalted, but it's hard to get there. The reason is that Exalted as it is now is, not to put too fine a point of it, a bloody hassle. Character creation alone takes the better of a day if I want to do it properly (most of that time is spent looking at Artifacts and coming up with backstories and personality), and of course, after that much time you are quite invested in your character.

The problem is that games where your players have been essentially recruited are prone to fall apart. If friends get together, even if they end up not playing, they can still do something else, but people off a forum? It's the game they're there for. Add the impersonal atmosphere of the Internet and bam, you got great grounds for a failing game.

I'd totally love a Terrestrial game. Got ideas for a ex-Dynast Water Aspect inspired by Haley Starshine and Nami (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_75iRAeRzbe4/TE_s3E6s7vI/AAAAAAAAAFo/qv4eckNqOZM/s1600/640e6c7bde3c60_full.jpg). My characters tend to take space, sometimes be silly and often act rashly, so I'm sure she'd stir the waters up a bit (pun intended). But I'm hesitant to put her to paper at the first offer, because my character ideas tend to be one use only. Like wave functions, once observed they collapse, and the way I see it, I don't want to waste so much time, or more importantly so much inspiration, on a game that is more likely than not to run 2 session or less.

[tonberrian]

Just out of curiosity, is there any characters that are more universally reviled than a GSP with Gremlin Syndrom?

[Kris Strife]

Just out of curiosity, is there any characters that are more universally reviled than a GSP with Gremlin Syndrom?

A sparkly, high appearance abyssal?

[Xefas]

Just out of curiosity, is there any characters that are more universally reviled than a GSP with Gremlin Syndrom?

This is kind of an easy question.

Would the Neverborn, the Yozi, the Fair Folk Nobility, every faction of the Sidereals, the Silver Pact, the Realm, the robotariat of Autochthonia, and every free man, woman, and child all put aside their differences and come together in a genuinely concerted effort to murder a Green Sun Prince with Gremlin Syndrome at all costs without absolutely any plans of betraying their temporary allies because it might undermine their plan to kill him (in which the term "all costs" was quite literal)?

If not, then the Ebon Dragon.

[Urpriest]

Anyone else have trouble downloading the Scroll of Errata? The file keeps failing to download.

[tonberrian]

This is kind of an easy question.

Would the Neverborn, the Yozi, the Fair Folk Nobility, every faction of the Sidereals, the Silver Pact, the Realm, the robotariat of Autochthonia, and every free man, woman, and child all put aside their differences and come together in a genuinely concerted effort to murder a Green Sun Prince with Gremlin Syndrome at all costs without absolutely any plans of betraying their temporary allies because it might undermine their plan to kill him (in which the term "all costs" was quite literal)?

If not, then the Ebon Dragon.

Probably.

Especially if he went Heretical.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Just out of curiosity, is there any characters that are more universally reviled than a GSP with Gremlin Syndrom?

The Ebon Dragon during the end of RotSE. I think that literally almost every single faction in the entire canon hates him or wants him dead for various reasons at about that point.

If we're talking PCs, though, probably not. Though it heavily depends on the character in question. We all know how the Lawgivers, Champions of the God of Virtue turned out back when. Nothing stops a GSP with Gremlin Syndrome acting like he's a D&D Paladin sans gilded brass green-flaming stick or being a friend to all living and unliving things (WITHOUT any mindrape involved).

Though Fair Folk are pretty universally reviled too.

[Xefas]

Probably.

Especially if he went Heretical.

I doubt it.


Anyone else have trouble downloading the Scroll of Errata? The file keeps failing to download.

Here, I just uploaded my personal Scroll of Errata (http://www.mediafire.com/?dkfaa33ddsdf9r6) file to mediafire, so that should definitely work. Enjoy.

[Urpriest]

Here, I just uploaded my personal Scroll of Errata (http://www.mediafire.com/?dkfaa33ddsdf9r6) file to mediafire, so that should definitely work. Enjoy.

Thanks much. Does this include the new character creation guidelines I've been hearing about?

[Xefas]

Thanks much. Does this include the new character creation guidelines I've been hearing about?

Absolutely. Page 7.

[Lix Lorn]

A Gremlin syndrome GSP would be hated by yozis, autochthonians and Neverborn. He'd probably be too busy running for his life to do enough evil to be hated by normal people

But EVERYONE hates the ED. EVERYONE
I mean, I want to give the First and Forsaken Lion and Adorjan hugs, but the ED? Kill on sight.

[ShadowFighter15]

It's really not. Many of Creations mortal residents don't go to school, or have standardized learning. Sort of like medieval Europe, the commoners got by with simple math and memorizing things as opposed to writing them down.
Mask of Winters is fantastic at memorizing things.
I've thought about making a traveling scholar-tutor character whose Motivation is to increase Creations literacy rate.

You know you're too used to DnD when you keep forgetting about stuff like that. :smallsigh:

Anyone think I need to make changes to what I've worked out so far? I'm totally stumped myself. Gonna try and get the Abilities sorted before I start looking at Charms.

[Weimann]

Probably.

Especially if he went Heretical.Let me just point out here, he could never "go Heretical." It's by definition impossible; Heretical charms are charms that the established Yozi doesn't have. Since a Yozi literally is the entirety of his charmset, the Ebon Dragon would have to have charms he didn't have to "go Heretical." That's a logical contradiction.

[tonberrian]

Let me just point out here, he could never "go Heretical." It's by definition impossible; Heretical charms are charms that the established Yozi doesn't have. Since a Yozi literally is the entirety of his charmset, the Ebon Dragon would have to have charms he didn't have to "go Heretical." That's a logical contradiction.

I meant the theoretical Gremlin Syndrome GSP.

[Cyborg Mage]

Homebrew!


Essence-Compressing Capture Sphere
Artifact ●,●● or ●●●●

Essence-Compressing Capture Spheres are roughly fist-sized metal orbs, split horizonntally in half and held together by a white metal stud and a hinge-like mechanism and covered in arcane symbols and occult patterns. They can be made from any material, require no attunement and are considered throwing weapons of speed 5, rate 3 and 50 ft range until they actually contain something, gaining all the bonuses for an attuned ranged weapon of that material (Excluding those pertaining to damage). When they succesfully hit a spirit, elemental or non-human creature (Alchemicals and Jadeborn are considered human), instead of calculating damage, the target rolls (Resistance+Integrity) against the user's (Thrown+Presence). Should the target fail the roll, they are converted into a stream of compressed essence and sucked into the Sphere. From then on, the creature or spirit is considered the owner's familiar; they will automatically obey any order given to them by their master unless they fail or pass a required Virtue roll, or pass an integrity roll against an order that opposes their mental or metaphysical nature (such as ordering a nephwrack to defend a living being). Additionally, though they can disagree with their master, they will not actively oppose them unless under the effects of unnatural mental influence, and if owned by a player character, their actions in combat are completely directed by the player. Captured beings automatically pass their rolls on future capture attempts. Whilst inside the sphere, beings heal and respire (For applicable beings) twice as fast, and are immune to environmental effects outside the sphere. For the purposes of respiration, underworld denzins are considered inside the underworld whilst in a soulsteel Sphere.

As mentioned before, Spheres can be made of any material, and provide a -3 penalty to the rolls of the target creature should it be made of a specific material:

Orichalcum and Starmetal Spheres apply the penalty to devas and gods.
Jade Spheres apply the penalty to elementals and kami.
Moonsilver Spheres apply the penalty to Wyld creatures and mutants with 5 or more mutations.
Soulsteel Spheres apply the penalty to all types of ghosts.
Adamant Spheres apply the penalty to Autochthonian elementals and examachina.
Any vitrol-corrupted Sphere applies the penalty to demons instead of their original targets.


Additionally, Spheres are much more common than other artifacts. A set of six Spheres of identical material can be purchased for Artifact ●● at startup, and Jade spheres can be purchased in most towns in a Second Age setting by any character with Resources ●●●+ or equivalent (purchasing more than 10 Spheres in a month subtracts one dot), with Spheres of other materials available from more specialized shops. In a First Age game, Spheres of any material (Excluding Soulsteel and, after Autochthon's exile, Adamant) can be purchased by Resources ●●+ or equivalent with no such restrictions. In Autochthonia, Spheres of any material can be purchased for resources ●●+ or equivalent (●●●+ in the Second Age).

Beings above essence 5 require specialized Spheres for capture, which raises the artifact level to 4 and rendering them entirely unavailabe for purchase in the Second Age (They can be purchased in the First Age for Wealth 3 or equivalent). Attempting to capture beings of essence 6 or 7 with an unspecialized sphere imposes a -3 penalty to the user's rolls, while beings of 8+ impose a -5 penalty. Additionally, succesfully capturing an essence 8+ being with an unspecialized Sphere causes it to explode in a perfect 75 foot ball of shimmering, concentrated essence in the colour of its component material, glowing with the intensity of a star. Beings within 300 feet of the blast are blinded for six months unless underground or inside a windowless building (Exalted and essence 4+ beings may roll Resistance), while those inside the blast suffer both this roll and 10 levels of unblockable, undodgable Aggrivated damage.

While a person can possess any ammount of empty spheres, they may only possess six occupied Spheres at any one time. Should they possess a Manse, excess Spheres are automatically transported to a vault in said Manse should they have their hearthstone somewhere on their person. This vault can be accessed remotely while meditating uninterrupted for over five minutes with the hearthstone. Otherwise, succesful captures are automatically released. While these vaults are practically unlimited in most games, Storytellers may impose a limit on the capacity of these vaults. In this case, these vaults are considered to have a maximum capacity of (Manse levelX5). At the Storyteller's discretion, a manse with definite statistics may have a specialised vault, increasing the capacity to X10.

Incidentally, although Alchemical Akuma are usually impossible, what happens if we throw an Alchie into a vat of vitrol?

[Teln]

Personally, I favor treating it as an acid bath that does aggravated damage, as Malfeas vents his anger upon the unfortunate servant of the traitor Autochthon.

[Lix Lorn]

I'd say screw the rules, Akuma Alchie. xD

....also, I love the capture spheres. Why can't they work on exalts?

[Xefas]

Incidentally, although Alchemical Akuma are usually impossible, what happens if we throw an Alchie into a vat of vitrol?

I actually asked this in the first thread, I think, and-


Personally, I favor treating it as an acid bath that does aggravated damage, as Malfeas vents his anger upon the unfortunate servant of the traitor Autochthon.

-I'm pretty sure Teln told me this. Along with a few other poo-pooers. :smalltongue:

Afterwards, I actually drew up rules for a Vitriol Caste, though it wasn't so much "throw into a vat of vitriol", but "baptize with vitriol refined with Chalcanth", like you would alter an artifact or create a Hellforged Wonder.

[Tavar]

Hmm...what Languages does Lookshy Speak? I'd imagine that Forest Tongue/Riverspeak are useful, but those might be more along the lines of Spanish in certain parts of the US today.

[Xefas]

Hmm...what Languages does Lookshy Speak? I'd imagine that Forest Tongue/Riverspeak are useful, but those might be more along the lines of Spanish in certain parts of the US today.

After scouring the Compass: Scavenger Lands and the Scroll of Heroes (they have a Lookshy section if I recall) for a character I wanted to make from Lookshy, I couldn't actually find a definitive answer.

My best guess is that you can get by with High Realm or Riverspeak in Lookshy. Riverspeak being like Spanish in the US: a few hundred years from now when Spanish is just ubiquitous.

[Cyborg Mage]

....also, I love the capture spheres. Why can't they work on exalts?

Thanks. And to answer your question, because it raises both gameplay and moral issues. Not that many people will enjoy being given un-disobey-able orders. And... um... yeah.

[tonberrian]

Hmm...what Languages does Lookshy Speak? I'd imagine that Forest Tongue/Riverspeak are useful, but those might be more along the lines of Spanish in certain parts of the US today.

Everywhere important in the world, somebody important usually speaks Old Realm.

[Urpriest]

Thanks. And to answer your question, because it raises both gameplay and moral issues. Not that many people will enjoy being given un-disobey-able orders. And... um... yeah.

I would favor it instead working on Exalts, and having the spheres usable only by mortals. But that would lead to a rather different campaign.

Also, am I misreading it, or would Dragon Kings be capturable?

[Lix Lorn]

Or only on DBs.
Solar: GO, FIERY EXPLOSION OF PETALS!
F.E.P. :I swear I'm going to kill you.

[Cyborg Mage]

Mmmm... Gonna have to think about that. Depends on how many people play them. As for the Exalts-as-Pokemon idea, that may work for a mortal-oriented campaign. Unless we're talking about giving 12-year olds these things. In a setting like Exalted, that's asking for trouble. Ironically, making them only work on DBs brings them even closer to what they were originally intended to be-subservient foot-soldiers of the Solars.

[Lix Lorn]

Exactly my point.
Hmm...
Wild planning!
The DBs got more and more freedom as the first age went on, as Solars became lax. This led to them having enough freedom to usurpation, after which they tried to destroy the pokeballs essence capture spheres. Unfortunately, they were indestructible, so they buried them and destroyed all records.

Guess what just got dug up?

[Cyborg Mage]

The Dynasts just asked for a pay rise. And the Wyld Hunt. Especially the Immaculates. The Lookshyans just comitted seppuku.

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah, sounds about right. xD

[SurlySeraph]

Unless we're talking about giving 12-year olds these things. In a setting like Exalted, that's asking for trouble.

Wouldn't that be the whole point of giving them to mortals?

Also, I'm attempting to homebrew a Sidereal Martial Art, which I'm calling Resplendent Firmament Style. It is, unsurprisingly, about stars. I was thinking of having one charm for each of the 25 constellations, but that's kinda ridiculous, so I'm doing 12 charms total - 2 for each for each of the astrological houses in the Sidereals book, plus a form charm and a capstone. I'd like feedback on the names and concepts of the charms before I try to work out the details:

Resplendent Firmament Style
Starlight Reaches All
The Sidereal can instantly travel to an object or being that he has touched before anywhere inside Fate, and make an unexpected attack against them if he so chooses.

Unbridgeable Lacuna Insouciance
Perfect dodge against physical or social attacks, with which the user is as distant from harm as the stars, and cares about the attacker exactly as much as they do. The attacker must roll Willpower, and if fails loses 1 wp from frustration at the Sidereal's blithe denial that they pose any threat.

All Fists Under Heaven
For a moment, the Sidereal holds every weapon on the battlefield. He can force characters with a total Essence equal to his total dots in House of Battles colleges (maximum 25) to launch a coordinated attack against a target of his choice, with no need to make the normal Charisma + War roll.

Unlock the Three Treasures
If the Sidereal hits, the target loses ~ 5m, 1wp, and the Sidereal automatically perfectly dodges if the target attacks him on its next action, by reading its planned actions through its surface thoughts.

Crow Feeds From the Pyre
The Sidereal binds himself to one opponent on the battlefield, with Essence no greater than his martial arts + highest dots in a House of Endings college, maximum 10. For each health level of damage that opponent takes, the Sidereal heals a health level or gains another corresponding health level.

Resplendent Firmament Form
-1 to the TN and difficulty of all combat-related rolls, and +2 to all DVs, for the duration of the scene. Also, all attempts to move the Sidereal against his will have no effect on him. Also, he can fly.

To Clearer Skies
The Sid can move the entire battle he's in to a more suitable location of his choice anywhere inside Fate. Opponents can resist, but if they do anyone who doesn't resist goes along – so opponents have to choose between letting the Sid's group escape and having to fight them in the Crimson Panoply of Victory, the slopes of Mt. Meru, 20 miles in midair, etc. Only usable within 2 actions of joining battle.

Sky-as-Divan Repose
Scene-length perfect dodge against physical or social attacks, but only functions on ticks where the user's action is Guard, Aim, or Inactive. Doing anything more violent than observing breaks the perfectly untroubled state of mind that the Sidereal must maintain to ignore attacks.

Fivescore Flawless Blows
Kill 100 extras (or a mass combat unit with Might 2 or less and Magnitude 3 or less) instantly.

Twilight Guardian Revelation
Gives the effects of Whirlwind of Fate, as a reflexive action

Falling Star Cataclysm
Drops a star on the target, automatically knocking him and everyone in a wide radius around down, dealing lethal piercing damage to him and bludgeoning damage to everyone in the radius. Only perfect parries work against it, but can be dodged as normal. The Sidereal can choose to have the star of a god who is personally known to him fall, and can choose whether that god dies or whether the star springs back up to heaven, leaving the god shaken but unharmed. Reckless use of this charm is a really good way to get audited to death.

Inescapable Million-Star Doom
Perfect attack. that target can only avoid by accepting a Descending Destiny of the Sidereal's choice for a number of actions equal to the Sidereal's Essence – if refuse to accept it, can't avoid it with a perfect defense, because he had an opportunity for a perfect defense by accepting the Destiny. It's meant to be balanced on Singular Escape Strategem.
The attacker may voluntarily forego any defense in order to take none of the attack's usual effects, but if he does so he must accept a Descending Destiny crafted by the Sidereal on the spot.

[Xefas]

Inescapable Million-Star Doom
Perfect attack that target can only avoid by accepting a Descending Destiny of the Sidereal's choice for a number of actions equal to the Sidereal's Essence – if refuse to accept it, can't avoid it with a perfect defense, because he had an opportunity for a perfect defense by accepting the Destiny. It's meant to be balanced on Singular Escape Strategem.

They will shout at you. They will say things like "But Perfect Defenses work anyway because of 'UFIO', so your charm does nothing!". They will mock you for your point of balance being Scroll of the Monk material.

I say "they" for I am merely the herald of the wolves.

[meschlum]

....also, I love the capture spheres. Why can't they work on exalts?

They can. Just give the Exalt a few Wyld mutations (Mute: must repeat the same syllable over and over, Delusions: capture sphere owners have good tactical sense, Attribute reallocation: lower brains and increace cuteness), and a Moonsilver sphere works.

Easy.

[SurlySeraph]

They will shout at you. They will say things like "But Perfect Defenses work anyway because of 'UFIO', so your charm does nothing!". They will mock you for your point of balance being Scroll of the Monk material.

I say "they" for I am merely the herald of the wolves.

And they're probably right, but I'm proposing it anyway.

[Tavar]

Why? If you know it's a bad idea, why do it?

And getting around perfects is a bad idea.

[Reynard]

Getting around perfects is not just a bad idea. It is flat out not allowed by the rules.


Where two effects make absolute statements which conflict, and one effect is an attack, and the other is a defense, the defense always takes priority. For this purpose, the statement “this attack is unblockable” and “this attack cannot be blocked” are considered equivalent, and would pierce certain ‘perfect’ defenses—for example, the Sidereal Charm Impeding the Flow will not stop an unblockable attack (Impeding the Flow specifically notes that it is fallible in the face of unblockable attacks, and so there is no conflict). However, the Solar Charm Heavenly Guardian Defense will block such attacks, because Heavenly Guardian Defense states that it is capable of doing so. These two statements (can’t be blocked/can block even unblockable attacks) are in conflict, and since the first statement is an attack, and the second a defense, Heavenly Guardian Defense takes priority.

In the case of attacks which state that they defeat even perfect defenses, such as the shockwave produced by a Soulbreaker Orb, this applies only to perfect defenses which do not possess the ‘block the unblockable/dodge the undodgeable’ clause, such as certain Dragon-Blooded, Alchemical, and Martial Arts Charms.

Block the unblockable, dodge the undodgeable, row, row, fight the powah!

[WalkingTarget]

Block the unblockable, dodge the undodgeable, row, row, fight the powah!

That being said, having your proposed charm be both unblockable and undodgeable with the allowed defense you propose would mess with anybody who doesn't have HGD or one of its relatives.

I dunno how that would work out in play, though.

[SurlySeraph]

Why? If you know it's a bad idea, why do it?

And getting around perfects is a bad idea.

Because having the ultimate attack of a fate-themed martial art be easy to completely ignore leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus I think "You can perfect away this attack for free, but if you do your rolls are at +1 TN or +1 difficulty for about 6 actions" isn't terribly unbalanced.

[Kyeudo]

Because having the ultimate attack of a fate-themed martial art be easy to completely ignore leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

In Exalted, it is always easier to defend against something than to inflict that something. Shaping attacks are shut down by an Essence 2 Integrity Charm, while applying them is an Essence 4 Lore Charm.

Also, Martial Arts should not interact with Sidereal Astrology ever. Martial Arts Charms can be picked up by anyone and Sidereal Astrology is the sole province of the Sidereal Exalted.

[Urpriest]

Because having the ultimate attack of a fate-themed martial art be easy to completely ignore leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus I think "You can perfect away this attack for free, but if you do your rolls are at +1 TN or +1 difficulty for about 6 actions" isn't terribly unbalanced.

Perhaps instead flip it around: make an attack, the attacker may voluntarily forego any defense in order to take none of the attack's usual effects but must accept the penalty.

[The Rose Dragon]

In Exalted, it is always easier to defend against something than to inflict that something. Shaping attacks are shut down by an Essence 2 Integrity Charm, while applying them is an Essence 4 Lore Charm.

Integrity-Protecting Prana is Essence 1, actually.

[TheCountAlucard]

Integrity-Protecting Prana is Essence 1, actually.Aww, you beat me to it! :smallfrown:

Anyway, one of the players who'd intended to drop may well be able to play after all. :smallsmile: I suppose I'll let you guys know how the game goes next week...

Oh, by the way, thought I'd drop this in here... the guy's asking to buy a three-dot Martial Arts mentor. Would it be too much for me to have the sifu be a Gold Faction Sidereal?

[SurlySeraph]

@^: Sounds reasonable to me, but I'm obviously a bit biased. :smalltongue:


Also, Martial Arts should not interact with Sidereal Astrology ever. Martial Arts Charms can be picked up by anyone and Sidereal Astrology is the sole province of the Sidereal Exalted.

Throne Shadow Style provides precedent for a martial art that works better for Sidereals than it does for everybody else.


Perhaps instead flip it around: make an attack, the attacker may voluntarily forego any defense in order to take none of the attack's usual effects but must accept the penalty.

Sure, that would make sense.

[The Rose Dragon]

Throne Shadow Style provides precedent for a martial art that works better for Sidereals than it does for everybody else.

Because that is a Sidereal "hero" style. It is allowed to have such enhancements.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Homebrew!

Let the line by line near-pointless nitpicking commence!


They can be made from any material, require no attunement and are considered throwing weapons of speed 5, rate 3 and 50 ft range until they actually contain something, gaining all the bonuses for an attuned ranged weapon of that material (Excluding those pertaining to damage).

Assuming these are intended to model Pokeballs, this should probably be more like Speed 6, Rate 1, and Range 10. They also don't apply magical material bonuses, as they are not attuned.


When they succesfully hit a spirit, elemental or non-human creature (Alchemicals and Jadeborn are considered human),

A better wording would be "non-mortal" instead of "non-human". Mortal is a Exalted term that does what you're trying to say here.


instead of calculating damage, the target rolls (Resistance+Integrity) against the user's (Thrown+Presence).

You need to use the standard Exalted roll format here, (Attribute+Ability). I would also add Essence to the target's roll. The target should be something like (Stamina+Integrity+Essence) against the user's (Dexterity+Thrown).

OR, to represent how in Pokemon wounded creatures are easier to capture while they're low on HP, you probably want to do something with wound penalties. Maybe you could make the initial roll something like (Willpower+Essence), or something else that would generally result in a high dice pool. Then double wound penalties for this roll. So a Creature with Essence 4 and Willpower 8 would have a dicepool of 12 normally, which you're not going to beat even with maxed Dexterity and Thrown. Get it down to it's last healthbox, and it takes a -8 penalty to this roll, reducing it to a much easier to capture dicepool of 4.



From then on, the creature or spirit is considered the owner's familiar;

You probably don't want to use the word familiar here, as that's a pre-existing Merit with it's own baggage and rules.


they will automatically obey any order given to them by their master unless they fail or pass a required Virtue roll, or

"Required Virtue roll" needs some clarification, even if I think I see what you meant.


pass an integrity roll against an order that opposes their mental or metaphysical nature (such as ordering a nephwrack to defend a living being).

In Exalted, you would word this as opposing Intimacies or their Motivation. If you're, say, a zombie, you're "metaphysical nature" doesn't make you do anything, but you probably have a built-in Intimacy of hate and/or hunger towards living beings, or a Motivation of "Eat brains".

You also need to reword the "integrity roll" as something like (Willpower+Integrity).


Additionally, though they can disagree with their master, they will not actively oppose them unless under the effects of unnatural mental influence, and if owned by a player character, their actions in combat are completely directed by the player. Captured beings automatically pass their rolls on future capture attempts. Whilst inside the sphere, beings heal and respire (For applicable beings) twice as fast, and are immune to environmental effects outside the sphere. For the purposes of respiration, underworld denzins are considered inside the underworld whilst in a soulsteel Sphere.

Say "creatures of death" instead of "underworld denizens".


As mentioned before, Spheres can be made of any material, and provide a -3 penalty to the rolls of the target creature should it be made of a specific material:
Orichalcum and Starmetal Spheres apply the penalty to devas and gods.
Jade Spheres apply the penalty to elementals and kami.
Moonsilver Spheres apply the penalty to Wyld creatures and mutants with 5 or more mutations.
Soulsteel Spheres apply the penalty to all types of ghosts.
Adamant Spheres apply the penalty to Autochthonian elementals and examachina.
Any vitrol-corrupted Sphere applies the penalty to demons instead of their original targets.

"Deva", "kami", and "examachina" are not Exalted terms. I don't know what you meant by those.

Also in the Moonsilver sphere entry, it should be "5 or more points of mutations".

Adamant Spheres should probably also give the penalty to Autochthonian gods. Or you could just say that the penalty applies to anything under the Design of the Maker.

I'd also suggest making Moonsilver Spheres apply their penalty to mundane animals, because relying on the Wyld for anything can be tricky depending on your ST.


Additionally, Spheres are much more common than other artifacts. A set of six Spheres of identical material can be purchased for Artifact ●● at startup, and Jade spheres can be purchased in most towns in a Second Age setting by any character with Resources ●●●+ or equivalent (purchasing more than 10 Spheres in a month subtracts one dot), with Spheres of other materials available from more specialized shops. In a First Age game, Spheres of any material (Excluding Soulsteel and, after Autochthon's exile, Adamant) can be purchased by Resources ●●+ or equivalent with no such restrictions. In Autochthonia, Spheres of any material can be purchased for resources ●●+ or equivalent (●●●+ in the Second Age).

I would take issue with this with anything else, but this makes sense, given that it's a Pokemon thing.


Beings above essence 5 require specialized Spheres for capture, which raises the artifact level to 4 and rendering them entirely unavailabe for purchase in the Second Age (They can be purchased in the First Age for Wealth 3 or equivalent). Attempting to capture beings of essence 6 or 7 with an unspecialized sphere imposes a -3 penalty to the user's rolls, while beings of 8+ impose a -5 penalty.

I would personally add a line saying that you can't capture a being with an Essence that's equal to or greater then your Essence plus two or three (except worded a bit more eloquently then that).

This helps prevent power creep, and also fits in with the videogames pretty well. Also I am totally imagining Cecelyne making these, so go with (Essence+2).

You also might want to address creatures that can be quite a bit more powerful then their Essence makes them seem (Behemoths, primarily).

Also also, you probably should add that you cannot capture extras.


Additionally, succesfully capturing an essence 8+ being with an unspecialized Sphere causes it to explode in a perfect 75 foot ball of shimmering, concentrated essence in the colour of its component material, glowing with the intensity of a star. Beings within 300 feet of the blast are blinded for six months unless underground or inside a windowless building (Exalted and essence 4+ beings may roll Resistance), while those inside the blast suffer both this roll and 10 levels of unblockable, undodgable Aggrivated damage.

This is quite a bit over the top compared to similar effects.

I'd work the blast something like this. Regular mortals should be blinded for six months, heroic mortals should get a (Wits+Resistance) roll, Essence 2-3 supernatural beings should make a (Wits+Resistance) roll or be blinded for one day, and Essence 4+ supernatural beings make a (Wits+Resistance) or be blinded for one turn.


While a person can possess any ammount of empty spheres, they may only possess six occupied Spheres at any one time. Should they possess a Manse, excess Spheres are automatically transported to a vault in said Manse should they have their hearthstone somewhere on their person. This vault can be accessed remotely while meditating uninterrupted for over five minutes with the hearthstone. Otherwise, succesful captures are automatically released. While these vaults are practically unlimited in most games, Storytellers may impose a limit on the capacity of these vaults. In this case, these vaults are considered to have a maximum capacity of (Manse levelX5). At the Storyteller's discretion, a manse with definite statistics may have a specialised vault, increasing the capacity to X10.

This all sounds good.

You also probably want to rule that Incapacitated creatures cannot be captured.

Hope this all helps!


Incidentally, although Alchemical Akuma are usually impossible, what happens if we throw an Alchie into a vat of vitrol?

Same thing that happens if you throw a Solar or a normal mortal in a vat of vitriol.

We don't know.

The demons composing the vitriol lashing out at them makes a certain amount of sense (Malfeas doesn't control vitriol).


Because having the ultimate attack of a fate-themed martial art be easy to completely ignore leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus I think "You can perfect away this attack for free, but if you do your rolls are at +1 TN or +1 difficulty for about 6 actions" isn't terribly unbalanced.

I can see why this would bug you, but perfect defenses are a fundamental (probably the fundamental) aspect of high-level Exalted play, because it's undodgeable rocket tag at that point. Giving anyone a way to ignore them is a very very bad thing, unless you want to your style to be regarded as on the Zeal or Obsidian Shards of Infinity level.

Not to mention that even if this was acceptable, +1 TN or +1 difficulty for only six actions is an incredibly minor penalty for an attack that good.

[Tavar]

Because having the ultimate attack of a fate-themed martial art be easy to completely ignore leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus I think "You can perfect away this attack for free, but if you do your rolls are at +1 TN or +1 difficulty for about 6 actions" isn't terribly unbalanced.
Except, essence expenditure is, by canon, the thing that messes up fate. That's one reason the Exalted are so powerful; fate says one thing, and they can tell fate to stuff it. And perfect defenses are the pinnacle of that.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Except, essence expenditure is, by canon, the thing that messes up fate. That's one reason the Exalted are so powerful; fate says one thing, and they can tell fate to stuff it. And perfect defenses are the pinnacle of that.

Also, yeah, this.

It's also important to note that a style dealing with Fate isn't really appropriate for a Sidereal style philosophically.

Sidereal styles take a fundamental facet of existence, things like perceptions, dreams, reflections, movement, or entropy, and use it as a weapon and lens to view the world through.

They also have a tendency of emulating the principles and abilities of other sorts of beings. Obsidian Shards of Infinity (intentionally) emulates the Ebon Dragon, and Quicksilver Hands of Dreaming has some very close ties to the Fair Folk in powers and theme.

...really, it's a shame Sidereal styles tend to be so broken. They're awesome, both in powers and in thematics.

[TheCountAlucard]

Speaking of SMAs, would it be at all unreasonable if I refluffed or outright remade some of them in my games to be in-theme with the different Spheres of Magic in oWoD Mage?

Not really going anywhere with this yet, just an idea I thought I'd throw out there...

[Xefas]

Speaking of SMAs, would it be at all unreasonable if I refluffed or outright remade some of them in my games to be in-theme with the different Spheres of Magic in oWoD Mage?

Absolutely not. If you do, the homebrew police will break into your parents' place of residence and imprison your mom's soul in a giant robot.

You don't even wanna hear about the last guy that happened to.

[Kyeudo]

You don't even wanna hear about the last guy that happened to.

What do you mean? That guy got his own TV series! His fanbase is still going strong.

[Mr.Bookworm]

What do you mean? That guy got his own TV series! His fanbase is still going strong.

Yes, fanbase. *snrk* "Bitchbase" would probably be more accurate.

But speaking of all of this, go read up on the Eva units. Now flip to Chapter 6 of the Infernal book, and read up on hellstriders.

There is no way in Malfeas that wasn't intentional.


Speaking of SMAs, would it be at all unreasonable if I refluffed or outright remade some of them in my games to be in-theme with the different Spheres of Magic in oWoD Mage?

I don't know a lot about oWoD, but if you made SMAs as certain "aspects" of the Spheres, they could make a lot of sense.

The Border of Kaleidoscopic Logic is Mindrape: Martial Art Edition, Charcoal March of Spiders is entirely based around entropy with a little e, and Citrine Poxes of Contagion would work as some sort of Life/Spirit hybrid. The Prismatic Arrangement of Creation works very, very well as a Prime thing, and Quicksilver Hands of Dreams is probably another Mind one. Scarlet-Patterned Battlefield Style works well as martially-inclined Correspondence discipline. I would make Obsidian Shards of Infinity Sphere-less.

[Xefas]

There is no way in Malfeas that wasn't intentional.

*cough* (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9826545)

(To reignite the Abyssal hate) Hellstriders totally kick Bonestriders' collective asses.

[kts2008]

Hey! Some of us like the Abyssals. Damn Infernals getting all the love these days. . .:smallsmile:

[golentan]

Only because Infernals know more than one chord from the "It's Good to be Bad" Rock Opera.

[Tavar]

So, I might be running an exalted game IRL, mostly for newbies. Any tips on what I should/shouldn't do?

[Cyborg Mage]

Nitpicking of the nitpicking. I'm breakin' the universe, one step at a time.



Assuming these are intended to model Pokeballs, this should probably be more like Speed 6, Rate 1, and Range 10. They also don't apply magical material bonuses, as they are not attuned.

Yeah, sorry. I was using the only throwing weapon that came to mind. Concealed-Knife Brace knives.



[QUOTE]A better wording would be "non-mortal" instead of "non-human". Mortal is a Exalted term that does what you're trying to say here.

Thanks.


You need to use the standard Exalted roll format here, (Attribute+Ability). I would also add Essence to the target's roll. The target should be something like (Stamina+Integrity+Essence) against the user's (Dexterity+Thrown).
Okay, forgot that. I just thought it was (X+Y(+Z)).


OR, to represent how in Pokemon wounded creatures are easier to capture while they're low on HP, you probably want to do something with wound penalties. Maybe you could make the initial roll something like (Willpower+Essence), or something else that would generally result in a high dice pool. Then double wound penalties for this roll. So a Creature with Essence 4 and Willpower 8 would have a dicepool of 12 normally, which you're not going to beat even with maxed Dexterity and Thrown. Get it down to it's last healthbox, and it takes a -8 penalty to this roll, reducing it to a much easier to capture dicepool of 4.
... Crap. I had something in mind-creatures can only be captured with remaining health levels equal to, or lesser than, (8-Target Essence+User Essence), but that works too.


You probably don't want to use the word familiar here, as that's a pre-existing Merit with it's own baggage and rules.
I was wondering if that rule system would fill the idea of having a Pokemon. But it's probably quite different. Will change that.


"Required Virtue roll" needs some clarification, even if I think I see what you meant.
For example, passing a Compassion roll to prevent you from killing someone. Failing a Valor roll to punch Juggernaut in the face.


In Exalted, you would word this as opposing Intimacies or their Motivation. If you're, say, a zombie, you're "metaphysical nature" doesn't make you do anything, but you probably have a built-in Intimacy of hate and/or hunger towards living beings, or a Motivation of "Eat brains".
I was thinking metaphysical nature=(Neverborn-serving) GHOSTS CAN'T SAVE PEOPLE. Could factor the intimacies in, though. Gives a sense that the captured beings are still themselves.


You also need to reword the "integrity roll" as something like (Willpower+Integrity).
Hmm... Yeah. Okay. Even though that'll be quite a large pool.


Say "creatures of death" instead of "underworld denizens".
Thanks.


"Deva", "kami", and "examachina" are not Exalted terms. I don't know what you meant by those.
Just read over the article and found that deva is a practically obsolete term in storytelling. For reference, kami=Gaia's "demons, and examachina= Autochthon's "demons".


Also in the Moonsilver sphere entry, it should be "5 or more points of mutations".
Thanks.


Adamant Spheres should probably also give the penalty to Autochthonian gods. Or you could just say that the penalty applies to anything under the Design of the Maker.
As mentioned before, examachina=Autochthon's souls. Gods=2nd and 3rd circle "demons"=examachina.


I'd also suggest making Moonsilver Spheres apply their penalty to mundane animals, because relying on the Wyld for anything can be tricky depending on your ST.
Hrm. Mabye.


I would personally add a line saying that you can't capture a being with an Essence that's equal to or greater then your Essence plus two or three (except worded a bit more eloquently then that).
Hrm. Mabye. (Again)


This helps prevent power creep, and also fits in with the videogames pretty well. Also I am totally imagining Cecelyne making these, so go with (Essence+2).
Yeah, kinda see what you mean with the videogame thing.


You also might want to address creatures that can be quite a bit more powerful then their Essence makes them seem (Behemoths, primarily).
Creatures over Essence 5 or Strength or Stamina greater than, say, 7?


Also also, you probably should add that you cannot capture extras.
Don't those fall under "non-mortal"? Usually?


This is quite a bit over the top compared to similar effects.
Trying to get across what happens when you try to squeeze the Unconquered Sun into a ball no larger than your fist.


I'd work the blast something like this. Regular mortals should be blinded for six months, heroic mortals should get a (Wits+Resistance) roll, Essence 2-3 supernatural beings should make a (Wits+Resistance) roll or be blinded for one day, and Essence 4+ supernatural beings make a (Wits+Resistance) or be blinded for one turn.
Seems good.


This all sounds good.

You also probably want to rule that Incapacitated creatures cannot be captured.
Good idea.


Hope this all helps!
Me too?

[Xefas]

Just read over the article and found that deva is a practically obsolete term in storytelling. For reference, kami=Gaia's "demons, and examachina= Autochthon's "demons".


Not sure what you mean by "deva" being an obsolete term. It's the catch-all for subsidiary souls in the soul hierarchies of Primordials that have not been deemed Creatures of Darkness yet.

In addition, the First Age Solars categorized every Primordial soul hierarchy with its own set of names.

Malfeas: Nihilem
Adorjan: Sheridan
Ebon Dragon: Aphotes
Cecelyne: Lament
She Who Lives In Her Name: Trace
Kimbery: Barzinoi
Gaia: Kami
Autochthon: Exmachina

These are the ones that have been divulged so far.

[Cyborg Mage]

I mean that it's an obsolete term as in both free Primordials have their own specialised terms for their souls. The only place that capturing devas would make sense is in EXTREMELY early, or even pre-First Age. Really, how much material do we have on that?p

[Xefas]

Well, there's also Spooky Secret Plot Hook Primordial (I like to think that's actually his name) who is still out there in the Wyld. Not to mention the soul hierarchies of hypothetical Heretical Titans. Both of those cases would involve devas.

Really, I just don't see the point in being specific when there's literally no downside to being general.

[Cyborg Mage]

The downside is that some spheres would be better at catching things that have nothing to do with them. Really, what does Gaia have to do with Orichalcum?

[Terraoblivion]

Say, could any of you more rules focused people tell me where the alternate character creation for Lunars can be found. I might need it soon.

[Cyborg Mage]

If you're talking about Schaefer's rules,here. (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Peter_Schaefer_on_Lunar_Character_ Generation) I think the alternate rules are here. (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Alternate_Lunar_Character_Generati on)

[Terraoblivion]

I meant Schaeffer's didn't even know about the other set before posting.

[Kyeudo]

So, I might be running an exalted game IRL, mostly for newbies. Any tips on what I should/shouldn't do?

Well, one of my tips is that if you don't want backgrounds about how their characters fought off an entire army as they Exalted and yet the Wyld Hunt still doesn't know about them is to have them start unExalted and play through their Exaltations. It gives a little more depth to the characters. However, it takes a while and mortals have problems to deal with.

Starting with Solars is probably the best idea, as all the other Exalts have their particular niches to deal with and its hard to screw up a Solar completely.

[Tavar]

Good idea, thanks. And, yeah, besides the one experienced person, everyone else is limited to Solars.

[Cyborg Mage]

Now with 44% more errata.


Essence-Compressing Capture Sphere
Artifact ●,●● or ●●●●

Essence-Compressing Capture Spheres are roughly fist-sized metal orbs, split horizonntally in half and held together by a white metal stud and a hinge-like mechanism and covered in arcane symbols and occult patterns. They can be made from any material, require no attunement and are considered throwing weapons of speed 6, rate 1 and 10 ft range until they actually contain something. They cannot be attuned, but suffer no penalties as such. When they succesfully hit a spirit, elemental or non-human creature (Alchemicals and Jadeborn are considered human), instead of calculating damage, the target rolls (Willpower+Essence) against the user's (Dexterity+Thrown). On the target, wound penalties are doubled for this roll (Incapacitated creatures cannot be captured). Should the target fail the roll, they are converted into a stream of compressed essence and sucked into the Sphere. From then on, the creature or spirit is considered the owner's companion; they will automatically obey any order given to them by their master unless they fail or pass a required Virtue roll, or pass a (Willpower+Integrity) roll against an order that opposes one of their intimacies, or their arcane nature (Such as ordering a nephwrack to defend a living being). Additionally, though they can disagree with their master, they will not actively oppose them unless under the effects of unnatural mental influence, and if owned by a player character, their actions in combat are completely directed by the player. Captured beings automatically pass their rolls on future capture attempts. Whilst inside the sphere, beings heal and respire (For applicable beings) twice as fast, and are immune to environmental effects outside the sphere. For the purposes of respiration, creatures of death are considered inside the underworld whilst in a soulsteel Sphere.

As mentioned before, Spheres can be made of any material, and provide a -3 penalty to the rolls of the target creature should it be made of a specific material:
[LIST] Orichalcum and Starmetal Spheres apply the penalty to gods and other heavenly spirits.
Jade Spheres apply the penalty to elementals and kami.
Moonsilver Spheres apply the penalty to animals (Wyld, conventional or spirit) and those with over 5 points of mutations.
Soulsteel Spheres apply the penalty to all types of ghosts, and other creatures of death.
Adamant Spheres apply the penalty to Autochthonian elementals and examachina.
Any vitrol-corrupted Sphere applies the penalty to demons instead of their original targets.

Additionally, Spheres are much more common than other artifacts. A set of six Spheres of identical material can be purchased for Artifact ●● at startup, and Jade spheres can be purchased in most towns in a Second Age setting by any character with Resources ●●●+ or equivalent (purchasing more than 10 Spheres in a month subtracts one dot), with Spheres of other materials available from more specialized shops. In a First Age game, Spheres of any material (Excluding Soulsteel and, after Autochthon's exile, Adamant) can be purchased by Resources ●●+ or equivalent with no such restrictions. In Autochthonia, Spheres of any material can be purchased for resources ●●+ or equivalent (●●●+ in the Second Age).


A being using a sphere cannot capture creatures with Essence greater to their own plus 2. Beings above essence 5, or Strength/Stamina 7, require specialized Spheres for capture, which raises the artifact level to 4 and rendering them entirely unavailabe for purchase in the Second Age (They can be purchased in the First Age for Wealth 3 or equivalent). Attempting to capture beings of essence 6 or 7 with an unspecialized sphere imposes a -3 penalty to the user's rolls, while beings of 8+ impose a -5 penalty. Additionally, succesfully capturing an essence 8+ being with an unspecialized Sphere causes it to explode in a perfect 75 foot ball of shimmering, concentrated essence in the colour of its component material, glowing with the intensity of a star. Beings within 300 feet of the blast are blinded for six months unless underground or inside a windowless building (Heroic mortals or essence 2+ creatures may roll (Wits+Resistance). Beings of essence 2-3 are blinded for one day on failure, essence 4+ are blinded for one turn.), while those inside the blast suffer both this roll and 10 levels of unblockable, undodgable Aggrivated damage.

While a person can possess any ammount of empty spheres, they may only possess six occupied Spheres at any one time. Should they possess a Manse, excess Spheres are automatically transported to a vault in said Manse should they have their hearthstone somewhere on their person. This vault can be accessed remotely while meditating uninterrupted for over five minutes with the hearthstone. Otherwise, succesful captures are automatically released. While these vaults are practically unlimited in most games, Storytellers may impose a limit on the capacity of these vaults. In this case, these vaults are considered to have a maximum capacity of (Manse levelX5). At the Storyteller's discretion, a manse with definite statistics may have a specialised vault, increasing the capacity to X10.

[Lix Lorn]

Looks awesome.
I'm also considering making a game using DB-capturing versions soon. >_>

[Cyborg Mage]

Just control yourself, m'kay?

[SurlySeraph]

I can see why this would bug you, but perfect defenses are a fundamental (probably the fundamental) aspect of high-level Exalted play, because it's undodgeable rocket tag at that point. Giving anyone a way to ignore them is a very very bad thing, unless you want to your style to be regarded as on the Zeal or Obsidian Shards of Infinity level.

Not to mention that even if this was acceptable, +1 TN or +1 difficulty for only six actions is an incredibly minor penalty for an attack that good.

Well, that's the thing. The idea is it's basically just a way to slap a Descending Destiny on someone, and the "You can choose between being hit by an attack and having a Descending Destiny" is to make that fit in a martial art, because if inflicting the Destiny requires you to actually damage the target it's never going to work on another Exalt.


Also, yeah, this.

It's also important to note that a style dealing with Fate isn't really appropriate for a Sidereal style philosophically.

Sidereal styles take a fundamental facet of existence, things like perceptions, dreams, reflections, movement, or entropy, and use it as a weapon and lens to view the world through.

They also have a tendency of emulating the principles and abilities of other sorts of beings. Obsidian Shards of Infinity (intentionally) emulates the Ebon Dragon, and Quicksilver Hands of Dreaming has some very close ties to the Fair Folk in powers and theme.

...really, it's a shame Sidereal styles tend to be so broken. They're awesome, both in powers and in thematics.

Fair criticism. My concept was basically "There are Celestial martial arts that are about things in the sky. There should be a Sidereal martial art that's about stars. And is very fate-y and Sidereal-y."


(To reignite the Abyssal hate) Hellstriders totally kick Bonestriders' collective asses.

I wish I could deny this, but I can't. Infernals definitely get their fair share of awesome.

[Drascin]

Man, I probably shouldn't have accepted that invitation to a Fae game without having so much as acquired the supplement until yesterday. Trying to internalize the weirdness of the Fae in such short notice is hard - especially since I have to read with the GWM PDF on one window and the Scroll of Errata in the other... :smallsigh:

Have to say, if we went by fluff alone, Fae may climb to being my second favorite splat after reading this. Whoever wrote this piece, certainly knew how to keep someone interested :smalltongue:.

[Weimann]

Dr. Jenna Moran, previously Rebecca Borgstrom. Her style is quite unique.

Exalted really does suffer from the "5 different sources" problem these days, though. I feel you. Be happy though, because the errata is quite recent and I hear it improves the Fae experience a lot.

Edit: Or wait, maybe Dr. Moran was only involved in 1e Fae? I forget.

[Xefas]

Well, one of my tips is that if you don't want backgrounds about how their characters fought off an entire army as they Exalted and yet the Wyld Hunt still doesn't know about them is to have them start unExalted and play through their Exaltations. It gives a little more depth to the characters. However, it takes a while and mortals have problems to deal with.

Alternatively, take the distance and location into account. If they Exalt and kill an army in, say, the Hundred Kingdoms - that's somewhere between 3000 and 4000 miles away from the Realm. It's going to be a while before the word gets back to anyone capable of forming a Wyld Hunt, and by then, the word will have been warped by 3-4000 miles of travel (rumors do that - even if they're true). Then consider the state that the Realm is in and if they'd go that far on a questionably reliable word to kill one Anathema when their own motherland is at the breaking point and has plenty of Anathema in it to deal with already.

Now, if they, for instance, Exalted in an Immaculate Cloister in the Imperial City and then proceeded to beat up an army of their former monk-mates and then fly away - yes, I think that's good cause for a Wyld Hunt.

[Tavar]

What does it cost to raise an ability from 0 to one rank? Seems like it'd cost nothing, but I don't think that's right.

[a_humble_lich]

Unfortunately that's not right. :smallfrown:

It costs 3xp.

[Tavar]

Source? That sounds better, but I can't find any such ruling in the book.

[Reynard]

It costs 3 xp and a week's training time to get a dot in an ability you don't have a dot in. XP tables in the Core Book.

[Tavar]

The one on page 274? Cause that one doesn't say anything about that.

[a_humble_lich]

Yeah, that one. It is about the 9th line down from the top, right after "New Trait". I think there was a printing error in the book and the "New trait" line should have been boldfaced, so it is a little confusing. But a new ability (i.e. one at rank 0) costs 3xp.

[WalkingTarget]

The one on page 274? Cause that one doesn't say anything about that.

I think it's covered as simply "Ability" about halfway down the list (which has a flat rate of 3 XP). There should probably be a gap two lines up from that since it's actually two tables that have been scrunched together: Trait Increase vs. New Trait.

Edit - Yeah, what that Night Caste above me said.

[Xefas]

The one on page 274? Cause that one doesn't say anything about that.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/NewAbilityCost.png

[golentan]

Okay, so which other immaculate style would you guys say has the best synergy with Fire Dragon? I ask because the character I wrote is going to be making a line drive for grandmaster status, and if I'm going to be paying a one mote surcharge on everything I do by gum I'm going to make up for it in other ways.

Also, is there any downside to using Essence Igniting Nerve Strike on someone you know not to be a terrestrial as an immaculate monk? Because it seems to me that if they're not a terrestrial they're fine unless they're anathema, in which case you've just blasted an anathema pretty damn nastily.

[Xefas]

Also, is there any downside to using Essence Igniting Nerve Strike on someone you know not to be a terrestrial as an immaculate monk? Because it seems to me that if they're not a terrestrial they're fine unless they're anathema, in which case you've just blasted an anathema pretty damn nastily.

Other than the 5m, 1wp cost (which is nothing to sneeze at as a Terrestrial)?

Well, I think you'll end up blasting mortals who have had their essence enlightened somehow. Unlike Godbloods which only have Peripheral pools, I think mortals only have a Personal pool. The Immaculate Order employs mortal monks with enlightened essence, so it might not be a good idea to run around your cloister "flame checking" everyone ala the Pyro/Spy dynamic.

[golentan]

Other than the 5m, 1wp cost (which is nothing to sneeze at as a Terrestrial)?

Well, I think you'll end up blasting mortals who have had their essence enlightened somehow. Unlike Godbloods which only have Peripheral pools, I think mortals only have a Personal pool. The Immaculate Order employs mortal monks with enlightened essence, so it might not be a good idea to run around your cloister "flame checking" everyone ala the Pyro/Spy dynamic.

Not quite what I had in mind, but I like the image. :smalltongue:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/022/4/4/anaffma_by_golentan-d37t9vb.jpg

I had remembered mortals as having an undifferentiated pool a la spirits (who are explicitly immune), but it seems you're right. Oh well. It might have been fun if it might have worked.

[Xefas]

Some sort of Essence Sight might help you. I'm not certain, as it's amazingly ambiguous from source to source as to whether Solar/Primordial/Fire/Water/Death/etc Essence "looks" different when you can see motes and everything. I'd really like to know, definitively, myself.

EDIT: Also, the image is exactly what I had in mind, and it made me lol.

EDIT2: As for your other question, I wholeheartedly vote for Water Dragon after Fire Dragon. Not only because it has a Perfect Defense, but also because I think the Steam motif is cool.

[golentan]

I was kind of leaning towards water dragon. That or earth dragon, because everything's better with lava.

[Xefas]

If you go Water Dragon, you can stick in an intimacy of "Saunas and Hot Springs (Love)", and play that up as much as possible. :smallbiggrin:

Could be a very memorable character trait.

[Teln]

Golentan, do you mind if I repost that pyro motivator?

[golentan]

Golentan, do you mind if I repost that pyro motivator?

Have at.

The use of any intellectual property I am not actively selling is free, so far as I'm concerned.

[Tavar]

Well, unless they have a shaping defense, in which case you just attacked someone for no effect.

[golentan]

Well, unless they have a shaping defense, in which case you just attacked someone for no effect.

Well, you proved they have a shaping defense. That's worth something, no?

[Tavar]

Well, you proved they have a shaping defense. That's worth something, no?

Only if it's obvious. Otherwise, it's like you attacked any other mortal.

[tonberrian]

What do you think would happen if someone botched a roll to summon a demon via thaumaturgy?

[Tavar]

Hmm...depends. How about they summon the demon, but it's both angry and, more importantly, some distance away?

Or, you end up summoning more than one angry demon.

[Xefas]

What do you think would happen if someone botched a roll to summon a demon via thaumaturgy?

Do it D&D style! Have them roll on a table!

1d6
1 = Nothing Bad Happens; Yay!
2 = The Demon Is Summoned And Immediately Attacks You At All Costs Without Opportunity to Bargain
3 = Explosion! You take 15 dice of lethal damage
4 = You Accidentally Summon a Different Demon Than You Wanted
5 = You Are Inflicted With A Set of Random Mutations! Roll three times on table 1-B
6 = You Accidentally Summon Malfeas To The Mortal Plane Stripped Of All Of His Surrender Oaths

[The Glyphstone]

Do it D&D style! Have them roll on a table!

1d6
1 = Nothing Bad Happens; Yay!
2 = The Demon Is Summoned And Immediately Attacks You At All Costs Without Opportunity to Bargain
3 = Explosion! You take 15 dice of lethal damage
4 = You Accidentally Summon a Different Demon Than You Wanted
5 = You Are Inflicted With A Set of Random Mutations! Roll three times on table 1-B
6 = You Accidentally Summon Malfeas To The Mortal Plane Stripped Of All Of His Surrender Oaths

This is Exalted, though - on a 1d6 table, you need both a 0 result and a 7 result, depending on how well you Stunt your d6 roll.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Not sure what you mean by "deva" being an obsolete term. It's the catch-all for subsidiary souls in the soul hierarchies of Primordials that have not been deemed Creatures of Darkness yet.

In addition, the First Age Solars categorized every Primordial soul hierarchy with its own set of names.

Malfeas: Nihilem
Adorjan: Sheridan
Ebon Dragon: Aphotes
Cecelyne: Lament
She Who Lives In Her Name: Trace
Kimbery: Barzinoi
Gaia: Kami
Autochthon: Exmachina

These are the ones that have been divulged so far.

You learn something new every day. Is this from the Rolls of Glorious Divinity?

Though addressing Kami and Examachina is kind of obsolete, since Gaia is off running around in the Wyld with all of her souls, and Autochthon broke his soul hierarchy into a million pieces around the time he left.


This is Exalted, though - on a 1d6 table, you need both a 0 result and a 7 result, depending on how well you Stunt your d6 roll.

Well, stunts can't give negative dice, and they go from 1 to 3 dice, so presumably it would be a 1-9 table.

1 being "nothing happens and you throw yourself a party" and 9 being "Adorjan falls in love with you".

[Kris Strife]

Shouldn't the higher number be the better result, if we're adding stunt die? :smallconfused:

[Tavar]

You learn something new every day. Is this from the Rolls of Glorious Divinity?

Though addressing Kami and Examachina is kind of obsolete, since Gaia is off running around in the Wyld with all of her souls, and Autochthon broke his soul hierarchy into a million pieces around the time he left.


Well, some of Gaia's souls(greater elemental dragons), plus her Joten are still in creation. Plus, even if she's not in creation, why would it matter? Just because Malfeas is off in elsewhere doesn't mean the term Yozi is obsolete.

Not sure about Autochthon, but he still has his divine ministers, yes?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Shouldn't the higher number be the better result, if we're adding stunt die?:smallconfused:

True enough. Trying to fit D&D-style dice rolls into Exalted would be a horrible, horrible chore in any case.


Well, some of Gaia's souls(greater elemental dragons), plus her Joten are still in creation. Plus, even if she's not in creation, why would it matter? Just because Malfeas is off in elsewhere doesn't mean the term Yozi is obsolete.

Not sure about Autochthon, but he still has his divine ministers, yes?

Elementals are not spirits of Gaia. Greater elemental dragons were either made by the Primordials collectively, or are normal elementals who have reached Essence 10. Gaia has power over them, but they are completely unrelated to her soul hierarchy. Also, one of her joutens (the humaniform one) is in Yu-Shan, yes, but she never leaves, so that would be kind of oddly specific.

It's not made exactly clear what's up with Autochthon's souls, but the Ministers used to be his Third Circle souls, at the very least (with the Core as his fetich). It'll probably get explained some more in CoCD: Autochthon.

Also, are there any MA styles based around archery (with a little a)? There's Golden Exhalation and Righteous Devil for flamepieces, Thousand Wounds Gear and at least one other I can't remember for throwing weapons, but I don't think there are any MAs based around what seems like a fairly obvious style to showcase.

[golentan]

Wood Dragon has the Bow as it's form weapon, but doesn't give too many charms that synergize with it well.

And most elementals aren't part of her soul hierarchy, but I'm pretty sure she has souls which are part of the whole arrangement.

[Tavar]

Elementals are not spirits of Gaia. Greater elemental dragons were either made by the Primordials collectively, or are normal elementals who have reached Essence 10. Gaia has power over them, but they are completely unrelated to her soul hierarchy. Also, one of her joutens (the humaniform one) is in Yu-Shan, yes, but she never leaves, so that would be kind of oddly specific.

Here's the wiki on her:Gaia (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Gaia).

Her deva's are called Elemental Dragons there.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Wood Dragon has the Bow as it's form weapon, but doesn't give too many charms that synergize with it well.

I forgot about Wood Dragon, but yeah, it doesn't do it very well.


And most elementals aren't part of her soul hierarchy, but I'm pretty sure she has souls which are part of the whole arrangement.

You are mistaken. I think.

From my reading of it, Gaia was the one who created the dragon lines and was thus the primary creator of the elementals. So she regards them as her children and has a lot of power over them, but they are not actually a part of her souls.

I can't really see another reading that makes sense or doesn't blatantly contradict something we know to be true.


Here's the wiki on her:Gaia.

Her deva's are called Elemental Dragons there.

No offense, but I'm not going to take the Wiki's word for it when I have the books and stuff right here.

The problem is, I'm looking at several different ambiguous sources, at least one of which is simply in-universe knowledge (whoever the man that decided that it would be a great idea to have the writers never communicate needs to have Crack the Sky used on him). And some of this, and some of the readings, contradict canon, like the fact that Creation is not a jouten of Gaia.

Exalted is that girl who cheats on you all the time and may or may not have served time for manslaughter, only she's a chronic lier so you never find out the truth. But she has the Essence pool of a Yozi and the First Ebon Dragon Excellency, so goddamn it you still love her.

[golentan]

I'm sorry, but everything I've read seems to have been pretty consistent. The elemental dragons are embodiments of the elements, part of gaia, and were used as part of the funky thing the primordials did to create and stabilize creation. The Lesser elemental dragons are high essence elementals, and the greater elemental dragons are phenomenon involving a lesser elemental hitting maximum essence and turning ****ing insane.

That doesn't make creation Gaia's Jouten, it's its own thing, but her souls are a part of that.

[Kyeudo]

Um, the Roll of Glorious Divinity places the creators of the first elementals as being the Celestial Incarnae.

[Tavar]

Plus, aren't the Dragon-blooded some combination of mortals and Gaia's lesser souls? Unless you're saying that Gaia gave gods(instead of her own souls) permission to muck around with her soul to create the exalted, then the Elemental Dragons make much more sense as her third circle souls.

[Kris Strife]

Is there a way to weaponize raw essence without using an essence cannon?

[Tavar]

What do you mean by weaponizing raw essence?

[Kyeudo]

The Elemental Dragons are pretty much confirmed as Gaia's Third Circle Souls.

[Arcanoi]

From my understanding, there are Elemental Dragons, and then there are The Elemental Dragons. Elemental Dragons are excessively high-essence Elementals. The Elemental Dragons, who supposedly dwell at the various poles, are Third Circle Souls of Gaia.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Guess who finally remembered the multiquote button!


I'm sorry, but everything I've read seems to have been pretty consistent. The elemental dragons are embodiments of the elements, part of gaia, and were used as part of the funky thing the primordials did to create and stabilize creation. The Lesser elemental dragons are high essence elementals, and the greater elemental dragons are phenomenon involving a lesser elemental hitting maximum essence and turning ****ing insane.

That doesn't make creation Gaia's Jouten, it's its own thing, but her souls are a part of that.

Okay, looking back at it, I seem to have suffered from jumping around a bit too much.

I think I've got it now.

The Five Elemental Dragons are gods, specifically gods that Gaia created to help stabilize Creation along with the Poles and the dragon lines.

The Incarnae studied the Dragons with Gaia's permission, and created the five great Elementals to regulate the elements inside of Creation. At the onset of the Primordial War, the Primordials hit the elementals as an opening blow, shattering them and wreaking havoc with the geomancy of Creation. Their power spread out over the dragon lines, resulting in uneven distribution of power. Those pockets of power are what create elementals.

Fast forward later, and the elementals are growing in power. Many of them reach Essence 6, and fashion themselves into dragon forms in honor of their divine "parents".

The Dragons are flattered by this, and while he's holding court, the Dragon of the Pole of Wood declares that they should honor the elementals that take their shape, and issues a decree that all elemental dragons should be allowed to develop as they wish, and that the gods should treat them as the Five Dragon's favored children.

Fast forward again, and the Kukla hits Essence 10, becoming the first Greater Elemental Dragon. The Five Dragons are very, very pleased at this reflection of their forms, but the gods notice that the GEDs are kind of HOLY****ING**** powerful, and they bind them away into remote locations where they can't do any harm.

That seems fairly clear-cut, reading the RoGD.


Um, the Roll of Glorious Divinity places the creators of the first elementals as being the Celestial Incarnae.

This is correct, I was wrong.


Plus, aren't the Dragon-blooded some combination of mortals and Gaia's lesser souls? Unless you're saying that Gaia gave gods(instead of her own souls) permission to muck around with her soul to create the exalted, then the Elemental Dragons make much more sense as her third circle souls.

Well, under the story I lay out up there, the Dragon-Blooded are Exalted with a godly patron, just like the other Exalted.

This does contradict some other things, so let me go reread up on the DBs and I'll get back to you on that one.


Is there a way to weaponize raw essence without using an essence cannon?

In Exalted, this is kind of like asking if there's a way to weaponize raw atoms without using a weapon.

So, uh, no.

[Kris Strife]

What do you mean by weaponizing raw essence?

I thought saying without using an Essence cannon would have indicated my desired meaning. :smalltongue:

Is there some charm or CMA that will allow a character to attack using just his essence, without channeling it through an item?

[Tavar]

Well, do you count the various methods such as Blazing Solar Bolt or the elemental ones? What about the Elemental Anima effects?

Besides that...well, there's a hearthstone that kinda allows something like that.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I thought saying without using an Essence cannon would have indicated my desired meaning. :smalltongue:

Is there some charm or CMA that will allow a character to attack using just his essence, without channeling it through an item?

Nope.

There's no such thing as "raw Essence", anyway.

Essence is the building block of matter in Exalted (motes being the smallest unit, I believe). You can channel it do neat things, but even an essence cannon isn't using "raw Essence", it's channeling power to create a blast.

This is basically semantics, but every Essence weapon you find is going to be colored by whatever made it. A "raw" Essence weapon doesn't exist.

[Arcanoi]

I thought saying without using an Essence cannon would have indicated my desired meaning. :smalltongue:

Is there some charm or CMA that will allow a character to attack using just his essence, without channeling it through an item?

- Martial Arts charms. I hope you knew about this one.

In addition, most splats have some form of ability such as Glorious Solar [THING] or Claws of the Silver Moon (for Lunars) that let them make weapons out of Essence. There's also various bolt attacks such as Corpse Bolt (Abyssals) or Elemental Bolt (Dragon Bloods). Infernals also get Mind-Hand Manipulation and Star-Piercing Spear of Glory.

[Kris Strife]

Well, do you count the various methods such as Blazing Solar Bolt or the elemental ones? What about the Elemental Anima effects?

Besides that...well, there's a hearthstone that kinda allows something like that.

Blazing Solar Bolt, but without having to channel it through a weapon.

Basically, I want to know if you can hadoken/kamehameha/Spirit Gun/etc someone in Exalted.

[Tavar]

You can use the melee ability with martial arts weapons, so, yeah, you can.

[Kyeudo]

The Five Elemental Dragons are gods, specifically gods that Gaia created to help stabilize Creation along with the Poles and the dragon lines.


Just went and double checked my MoEP: Alchemicals. It pretty much closes the case on what the Five Elemental Dragons are. They are Gaia's Third Circle Souls.

[Xefas]

Basically, I want to know if you can hadoken/kamehameha/Spirit Gun/etc someone in Exalted.

There used to be a Solar charm for that, but it got replaced in the errata into something far more useful, and far less awesome.

But, as per usual, Infernals to the rescue! The Charm "Star-Piercing Spear of Glory" allows you to fire bolts of pure essence at-will from your hands/eyes/crotch-thrusts/whatever once you hit Essence 4. The stats for the blasts are Speed 5, Acc +2, Damage +8L, Rate 5, Range (Essence x 5 yards). They may be used with either Archery or Melee, deal Aggravated damage to Gods, and allow you to supplement any attacks made with them via Green Sun Nimbus Flare as an innate power.

Principle Invoking Onslaught will also let you do this, with the added bonus of allowing your hadokens to turn people into solid gold (or any raw material).

[Kris Strife]

There used to be a Solar charm for that, but I got replaced in the errata into something far more useful, and far less awesome.

But, as per usual, Infernals to the rescue! The Charm "Star-Piercing Spear of Glory" allows you to fire bolts of pure essence at-will from your hands/eyes/crotch-thrusts/whatever once you hit Essence 4. The stats for the blasts are Speed 5, Acc +2, Damage +8L, Rate 5, Range (Essence x 5 yards). They may be used with either Archery or Melee, deal Aggravated damage to Gods, and allow you to supplement any attacks made with them via Green Sun Nimbus Flare as an innate power.

Principle Invoking Onslaught will also let you do this, with the added bonus of allowing your hadokens to turn people into solid gold (or any raw material).

Has anyone homebrewed this for the other Exalted types? Or is there a Solar version of Green Sun Nimbus Flare?

[Cyborg Mage]

But, as per usual, Infernals to the rescue! The Charm "Star-Piercing Spear of Glory" allows you to fire bolts of pure essence at-will from your hands/eyes/crotch-thrusts/whatever once you hit Essence 4.

... I just got a mental image of Duffman firing lasers. I wonder what beer Infernal Duffman promotes...

[Lix Lorn]

I have to make Jareth as an Infernal now. Thanks a lot. :smalltongue:

[Kylarra]

There used to be a Solar charm for that, but it got replaced in the errata into something far more useful, and far less awesome.

But, as per usual, Infernals to the rescue! The Charm "Star-Piercing Spear of Glory" allows you to fire bolts of pure essence at-will from your hands/eyes/crotch-thrusts/whatever once you hit Essence 4. The stats for the blasts are Speed 5, Acc +2, Damage +8L, Rate 5, Range (Essence x 5 yards). They may be used with either Archery or Melee, deal Aggravated damage to Gods, and allow you to supplement any attacks made with them via Green Sun Nimbus Flare as an innate power.

Principle Invoking Onslaught will also let you do this, with the added bonus of allowing your hadokens to turn people into solid gold (or any raw material).Abyssals also have their crypt bolts, which, while not quite as good, are still applicable and is only a charm tree of 2 (3-4 to make it better) rather than 6 and usable at Essence 3, not 4. :smalltongue:

Crypt Bolt is Speed 5, Acc 0, Rate 2, Range (Thrown x10 yds), Damage (Ess x2)L; Upgraded version 1 adds your Whispers rating to Accuracy and damage and you can shoot them through your eyes by substituting Man for Dex and deals Aggravated to anything you specifically hate as an intimacy.

There's also a 1 action charm that gives you infinite rate and +2 acc with your crypt bolts for that action. This one has Ess4 prereqs, but all the others are Ess3.


:smalltongue:

[Reynard]

There's also a 1 action charm that gives you infinite rate Rate 5 and +2 acc with your crypt bolts for that action.

Errata'd. :smalltongue:

[Tavar]

Does that even really matter? I mean, from what I've seen, using flurries just means you're going to miss a lot more, due to how flurry penalties are decided.

[Reynard]

Does that even really matter? I mean, from what I've seen, using flurries just means you're going to miss a lot more, due to how flurry penalties are decided.

Yeah, but Infinite Rate means you can just keep going even after they have no DVs.

Even if you're rolling 1 or 2 dice, you only need 1 sux to hit.

Combine with Second Excellency, and destroy them utterly.

[Tavar]

Oh. Guess the danger there would be a counter attack charm. You'll probably run out of DV's first, after all.

[Cyborg Mage]

Has anyone homebrewed a charm tree for Elloge yet? I have a straaange desire to do so. Some might call it an urge.

[Jokasti]

Has anyone homebrewed a charm tree for Elloge yet? I have a straaange desire to do so. Some might call it an urge.

Didn't Revlid do that?

[Kylarra]

Errata'd. :smalltongue:Whatevs, I didn't check Scroll of errata. :smalltongue:

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah, but Infinite Rate means you can just keep going even after they have no DVs.

Even if you're rolling 1 or 2 dice, you only need 1 sux to hit.

Combine with Second Excellency, and destroy them utterly.

Yes, but Excellencies cannot create actions, established as early as Manual of Exalted Power: Dragon-blooded. If you run out of dice in your attack pool, pre-Excellency, you cannot attack at all. Which means you can attack a maximum of times equal to half your pre-Excellency attack pool.

Besides which, there are mundane weapons that can have a Rate of 6, so why is my magical rate limited to 5?

Man, I hate that errata.

[golentan]

Well, it's easy to ignore in your games if you can convince the ST.

Okay, so a primordial related question. How to they create new jouten, and what's the interconnection level between them? In short, is it sufficient to kill (any) one jouten to activate ghost eater and put the neverborn hurt on a titan, or is there a specific form you need to kill.

[Xefas]

Okay, so a primordial related question. How to they create new jouten, and what's the interconnection level between them? In short, is it sufficient to kill (any) one jouten to activate ghost eater and put the neverborn hurt on a titan, or is there a specific form you need to kill.

So far as I know (and I know that if I'm wrong, you'll hear about it swiftly and loudly), a Jouten is created from a Primordial learning a Shintai charm. Cecelyne's jouten that is physically an infinite desert is a manifestation of her knowing "Greater Shintai of the Endless Desert". Similarly, Malfeas probably has a "Demon City Shintai" and "Brass Dancer Shintai" out there somewhere.

Shintai charms are pretty rare, and the current Primordials/Yozis, being finite concept-entities, have already designed all the Shintai charms that their design space allowed.

And, yes, killing one Jouten with Ghost Eating Technique is enough to Neverborn them. A Jouten is the Primordial's body. Stabbing it to death stabs the Primordial to death.


Has anyone homebrewed this for the other Exalted types? Or is there a Solar version of Green Sun Nimbus Flare?

I don't think so. Solars just aren't cool enough. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, the Star-Piercing Spear of Glory used to also have Infinite Rate; I listed 5 because of the errata. Which is a shame, because its visual reminded me of the greatest name a DBZ technique ever had. "Continuous Die Die Missile" (which also strikes me as more than slightly Malfean).

[golentan]

I meant more "can they 'extrude' jouten in the forms they already know of" and how.

Second bit is useful to know.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Okay, so a primordial related question. How to they create new jouten, and what's the interconnection level between them? In short, is it sufficient to kill (any) one jouten to activate ghost eater and put the neverborn hurt on a titan, or is there a specific form you need to kill.

So far as I understand it, you need to kill only one of the joutens and activate a spirit-killing effect to slay a Primordial.

This generally isn't a problem, though, because I believe all Primordials/Yozis only have a single personal body (The Ebon Dragon, Adorjan), have a world-body (Szoreny, Autochthon), or have one of each (Gaia, Malfeas). I don't believe we've seen a Primordial with more then two joutens or more then one of each type.

That's just what we've seen, though. It's quite possible there is more.

And there's no mention of how they make jouten in the Ebon Dragon's write-up, which contains all of the Yozi charms, so I would assume they come into being at the same time the Yozi does.

[SurlySeraph]

What would happen to the world-body jouten if the personal body jouten was ghost eater'd? Would it merge into the same Neverborn tomb-body, or wink out of existence, or somehow live on, or what?

[Kyeudo]

What would happen to the world-body jouten if the personal body jouten was ghost eater'd? Would it merge into the same Neverborn tomb-body, or wink out of existence, or somehow live on, or what?

When a Primordial dies, all of its Charms are twisted into whatever remains as a Neverborn, so the world-body would die as well.

[Xefas]

Brings up a good point. Purely speculative; if you were to somehow kill Malfeas' Demon City World-Body, in which all the other Yozi are housed (except maybe Cecelyne - but she's anchored to it), what would happen to everyone else? He's supposedly their "prison", so would each Yozi just sort of float off into Elsewhere, forming their own separate world? Would some first age failsafe activate and have another Yozi nomnomnom all the others up and form a new prison-realm?

[golentan]

Or they all freak out because they're all suddenly living in a dead guy falling slowly into oblivion with no means of escape.

[Kris Strife]

So, would somehow destroying the Games of Divinity without destroying Creation be a good thing or a bad thing?

[Xefas]

So, would somehow destroying the Games of Divinity without destroying Creation be a good thing or a bad thing?

Well, there's no easy answer, as I'm fairly certain that, canon-wise, you can't (which just means it's up to the purview of the Storyteller to figure something else).

Even speculation is difficult, as there are conflicting theories about what the Games actually are. Some say that it's just the Divine Opium Den (with various theories about why the Primordials made such a thing), in which case destroying it would probably be a good thing. Some say it's an integral part of Creation, and that entities of Primordial or Incarna level power must constantly be playing it to keep the world from falling apart (this is if you want a less GRIMDARK setting, in which the Unconquered Sun isn't a crack addict). In that case, it would be bad.

So, really, it's up to you.

[Lix Lorn]

AFAIK, it is specifically said that the Games are NOT integral to creation. Think that's the only thing we know for a fact.

I think.

[Kris Strife]

Isn't Creation supposed to be the power source for the Games, which are inherently so addictive that the Incarnae don't care about Creation?