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Kerrin
2011-01-18, 09:38 PM
I'm thinking of making a level-5 rogue who primarily does combat as a wand wielder. I picture him as a rogue-ish, wild west, gunslinger with the wands replacing the guns (in a D&D fantasy campaign). He'd only use ranged weapons (bows, etc) and/or melee as a backup if he needs to.

Is the rogue a decent platform for making a non-wizard/sorcerer wand-slinger?

The books I own and have available are:

PHB
PBHII
DMG
CAdv
CDiv

I'm not thinking hyper-optimized 'cause that's not really my game, more curious for opinions if I'm starting on the right road or barking up the wrong tree (and alternative suggestions for trying a non-full-caster wand-slinger).

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-18, 09:52 PM
Yes, yes, yes.

Rogue (ask if you can use the pathfinder version) makes a quite decent wand wielder, though some will tell you bards make better ones. but never mind them.

magical Aptitude, (+2 to UMD and Spellcraft) as well as Skill Focus UMD (+3) is a good place to start.

Also, Wand Bracer (Dungeonscape if you can get a hold of it) will allow you to have up to 5 wands... all a swift action to draw. (300 gp)

Wand Chambers for weapons and shields, counts you as "wielding" the wand already, I believe. 100gp.

Dont forgot about scrolls... Though wands are useful and good to have around, and are easy to use, the true power of a UMD rogue is to be had with the use of scrolls. Caster Level x Spell Level x 25 gp for scrolls... Its worth it, especially because you can use metamagic on scrolls. Nothing like Quickened Improved Invisibility for under 3000 gold. Tis a rogues best friend.

I personally would suggest a rapier and buckler.. you can still use wands and scrolls in the buckler hand, and keep the AC bonus.

Volos
2011-01-18, 10:05 PM
Remember that if your wand's spell takes an attack roll you can apply sneak attack damage when it applies. Scorching Ray + Sneak Attack Dice = Awesome Sneak Attack. Rogues that wield offensive wands are better than rogues that busy themselves getting up close to stab people. The base damage from a weapon cannot compare to the damage from a simple wand.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-18, 10:06 PM
Also, wands that you want: Wand of Swift Invisibility (for sneak attacks) Wand of Acid Splash or ray of Frost (ranged touch Attacks) wand of True Strike (always handy!) Wand of Wraithstrike (for melee touch attacks) and possibly a Wand of Magic Missile. (for hitting incorporeal creatures, plus, almost nothing is immune to Force)

Urpriest
2011-01-18, 10:13 PM
Oooh sad. You don't have access to Complete Arcane. If you did, Double Wand Wielder is pretty much essential for this concept. A proper gunslinger must dual wield after all.

amisth
2011-01-18, 10:18 PM
It's a cool flavor idea, but I think you should consider that UMD is a charisma based class. With that in mind, a bard would suffer less from having a very high charisma score than a rogue, since you want to be putting as many points as possible into intelligence if you're going to be the skill monkey. Actually, they wouldn't suffer at all, since that's what they use for spellcasting/almost all of their class skills.

BiblioRook
2011-01-18, 10:20 PM
Ooh man, I keep hearing so many things about UMD Rogues, concitering I seem predestined by fate to play rogues weather I want to or not I'm really thinking my next character is going to be along these lines. :smallbiggrin:

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-18, 10:25 PM
Im just having so much fun with my UMD Rogue, it is silly. It perfectly fits the concept of the "any method to be prepared" that I like my rogues to have. Not to mention that it adds so much to your versatility.

Also, it isnt hard to have CHA as a rogue, a lot of your best skills are tied to it. Yes, you arent dependent on it as a bard is, but still. Besides, it is very easy to have minimum of 18 UMD even without a great CHA... recalling that 1 auto fail on UMD rolls, and thus all you need is a 2 to use any wand...

If your DM will let you, custom build a magical item: a ring of UMD that follows the rules for skill items, as per ring of Jumping and such items of that ilk.

Kerrin
2011-01-18, 10:26 PM
Yes, yes, yes.

Rogue (ask if you can use the pathfinder version) makes a quite decent wand wielder, though some will tell you bards make better ones. but never mind them.

magical Aptitude, (+2 to UMD and Spellcraft) as well as Skill Focus UMD (+3) is a good place to start.

Also, Wand Bracer (Dungeonscape if you can get a hold of it) will allow you to have up to 5 wands... all a swift action to draw. (300 gp)

Wand Chambers for weapons and shields, counts you as "wielding" the wand already, I believe. 100gp.

Dont forgot about scrolls... Though wands are useful and good to have around, and are easy to use, the true power of a UMD rogue is to be had with the use of scrolls. Caster Level x Spell Level x 25 gp for scrolls... Its worth it, especially because you can use metamagic on scrolls. Nothing like Quickened Improved Invisibility for under 3000 gold. Tis a rogues best friend.

I personally would suggest a rapier and buckler.. you can still use wands and scrolls in the buckler hand, and keep the AC bonus.
Thanks for the encouragement.

Definitely going to be pumping up UMD.

Where are wand chambers from?

Definitely going to have some scrolls too for those one-off occasions.

Rapier and buckler were looking good to me too!


Remember that if your wand's spell takes an attack roll you can apply sneak attack damage when it applies. Scorching Ray + Sneak Attack Dice = Awesome Sneak Attack. Rogues that wield offensive wands are better than rogues that busy themselves getting up close to stab people. The base damage from a weapon cannot compare to the damage from a simple wand.
For sneak attack damage, I'm assuming the target still needs to have been denied their Dex bonus to AC, right?


Also, wands that you want: Wand of Swift Invisibility (for sneak attacks) Wand of Acid Splash or ray of Frost (ranged touch Attacks) wand of True Strike (always handy!) Wand of Wraithstrike (for melee touch attacks) and possibly a Wand of Magic Missile. (for hitting incorporeal creatures, plus, almost nothing is immune to Force)
Sounds like wands with ranged touch attacks are going to be pretty handy as well as wands with no-save spells.


Oooh sad. You don't have access to Complete Arcane. If you did, Double Wand Wielder is pretty much essential for this concept. A proper gunslinger must dual wield after all.
Well, I could get Complete Arcane ... just a matter of ponying up the money if I really want to go that route.

Is Double Wand Wielder a feat? Is it otherwise impossible to hold a wand in each hand, or is it a matter of only having one standard action per round so only being able to get off one wand use per turn (without help like Haste, for example).

Kerrin
2011-01-18, 10:29 PM
It's a cool flavor idea, but I think you should consider that UMD is a charisma based class. With that in mind, a bard would suffer less from having a very high charisma score than a rogue, since you want to be putting as many points as possible into intelligence if you're going to be the skill monkey. Actually, they wouldn't suffer at all, since that's what they use for spellcasting/almost all of their class skills.
I was thinking about that, but with a rogue I'll be pumping a lot of skill points into UMD anyway. At some point the skill ranks will make the bonus from Cha less necessary.

Good thought though, a bard might make for a decent related concept sometime.

Kerrin
2011-01-18, 10:32 PM
Hmm, wondering, does it ever hamper a wand-wielding rogue that only up to fourth-level spells can be put into wands? (or am I misremembering that limitation?) :smalleek:

I can't imagine it would anyway because there are loads of great spells at fourth-level or below.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-18, 10:35 PM
Wand Chambers are also from Dungeonscape. I just checked, and yes, they allow wands to be "wielded" as long as you are holding the weapon or shield with the wand chamber installed in it.

thus with a Wand Bracer (also from dungeonscape) you have access to 7 wands at any given time: 2 of which are ALWAYS considered wielded, and 5 more of which can be wielded with a swift action. sadly, it takes a full action to "sheathe" a wand you draw from the Wand Bracer: thus, you will probably end up dropping it.

Also, there was a belt of potions in the Forgotten realms setting... allows you to draw potions as a free action.

There is also a "scroll organizer" in the same book, The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, IIRC.

I use a wand of swift invisibility and then a wand of acid splash for easy touch AC sneak attack... this is golden with the Craven feat. (champions of Ruin, i believe) 1d3+4d6+8 damage at level 8... fun times.

All this, while maintaining a decent AC with a mithril buckler. However, remember that UMD has Spell Failure Chance as per casting a spell. ( i believe divine spells dont count in that?)

easiest way around that is +1 Twilight Mithril Chainshirt for 5100 gp, I think?

Kerrin
2011-01-18, 10:35 PM
A related question ... Can the feat Quickdraw be applied to wands? (are wands weapons?)

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-18, 10:38 PM
Hmm, wondering, does it ever hamper a wand-wielding rogue that only up to fourth-level spells can be put into wands? (or am I misremembering that limitation?) :smalleek:

I can't imagine it would anyway because there are loads of great spells at fourth-level or below.

This why I recommended using scrolls... 4hth level spells are good and all, but you frankly aren't using UMD at its full potential until your rogue has scrolls strapped all over his body. :smallwink:

Its only a DC 20+ caster level to use a scroll, and it is possible to have a 25 in UMD by level 8 with a 16 CHA, a Ring of UMD +5, Skill Focus UMD, Magical Aptitude, and a pathfinder trait: Dangerously Curious, +1 UMD.

Im sure someoen has cheesier methods as well.

Shade Kerrin
2011-01-18, 10:39 PM
I promised we'd post in the same thread one day...

Double wand Weilder: Needs Craft wand and TWF.
Lets you use two wands in 1 round, but it costs an extra charge from the second wand.
Wand Chamber is from Dungeonscape
Many of the utility spells you want are 1~4, so the limit is not that bad, especially since 4th level spells are considered among the best for their class. Furthermore, staves use the same mechanic as wands for spellcasting. I remember playing a UMDer who had a collection of wands as little guns, with a staff as her heavy duty weapon.

Urpriest
2011-01-18, 10:39 PM
Is Double Wand Wielder a feat? Is it otherwise impossible to hold a wand in each hand, or is it a matter of only having one standard action per round so only being able to get off one wand use per turn (without help like Haste, for example).

It's a feat. You can hold a wand in each hand just fine, it is as you say a matter of a lack of standard actions. Do note that Haste doesn't give extra standard actions in 3.5, that was one of the more prominent changes from 3.0.

Double Wand Wielder requires Craft Wand, so it may be a little tricky to access for a pure Rogue, unfortunately. Unless I'm misremembering how it works.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-18, 10:40 PM
A related question ... Can the feat Quickdraw be applied to wands? (are wands weapons?)

Some consider wands as a "weapon-like object" so in that case, yes. varies from DM to DM though. I know in Pathfinder that specifically said no to wands, scrolls, and potions being Quick Drawn... drawed? something.

Kerrin
2011-01-18, 11:45 PM
I promised we'd post in the same thread one day...

Double wand Weilder: Needs Craft wand and TWF.
Lets you use two wands in 1 round, but it costs an extra charge from the second wand.
Wand Chamber is from Dungeonscape
Many of the utility spells you want are 1~4, so the limit is not that bad, especially since 4th level spells are considered among the best for their class. Furthermore, staves use the same mechanic as wands for spellcasting. I remember playing a UMDer who had a collection of wands as little guns, with a staff as her heavy duty weapon.
Nice to cross paths...

Thanks for mentioning staves, I hadn't even thought of them!

Kerrin
2011-01-18, 11:48 PM
It's a feat. You can hold a wand in each hand just fine, it is as you say a matter of a lack of standard actions. Do note that Haste doesn't give extra standard actions in 3.5, that was one of the more prominent changes from 3.0.

Double Wand Wielder requires Craft Wand, so it may be a little tricky to access for a pure Rogue, unfortunately. Unless I'm misremembering how it works.
Hmm, I may just have to settle for one wand use per turn.

Regarding the Haste spell... I'm always messed up when I'm thinking of it in 3.5 because I have the old AD&D version stuck in my head.

Kerrin
2011-01-18, 11:59 PM
Some consider wands as a "weapon-like object" so in that case, yes. varies from DM to DM though. I know in Pathfinder that specifically said no to wands, scrolls, and potions being Quick Drawn... drawed? something.
A dagger or sword in a sheath, a wand in a sheath, they sound the same to me. I'll have to see what my group wants to do with regard to this.

I was almost imagining a Quiver of Ehlonna stuffed with wands and using Quickdraw to get at them, well, quickly!

ericgrau
2011-01-18, 11:59 PM
The rogue sneak attack spell slinger is practically built into the system, with specific rules included on how to handle. You get touch attack sneak attacks, those are nice. The drawback (in core) is lack of multiple attacks later, except with quicken I suppose.

UMD is a bit hard to pump at 5th level though. You need a +18 to make it reliable. Even if custom items are allowed your level 5 wealth can barely afford a +5. 2 feats are expensive, at least in the long run when you won't need them later. With a decent cha you have a +10 to +12 right off the bat. So, I suppose 2 feats would get you close enough. Hmm, maybe if it's a short campaign or if you don't mind losing a couple feats for a cool concept. You may also dip a level of wizard for free wand use of any level, no check to roll. You can even acid splash sneak attacks. Or even go into arcane trickster or spellwarp sniper from there.

Thiyr
2011-01-19, 12:04 AM
Are you allowed to use web stuff? You may want to keep a wand of Kaupaer's Quickblast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a) onhand for swift-action wanding (for swift action sneak attacks, presuming you can keep them dex bonus-less).

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 12:08 AM
Alas wands have a minimum casting time of a standard action. Scrolls OTOH can cast swifts. They're a move action to draw (and can't be quick drawn since they don't have a weapon-like grip like wands do), but you can still get 2 spells per round that way. Or again he could dip 1 level of wizard if he wants.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-19, 12:11 AM
recalling that 1 auto fail on UMD rolls, and thus all you need is a 2 to use any wand...
A rolled 1 never automatically fails on any skill check. Use Magic Device will succeed just fine if you have a +19 modifier and roll a 1 to Use a Wand. It's just that when you fail and happen to have rolled a 1 that you've got a 24-hour timeout for that device.

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 12:15 AM
A rolled 1 never automatically fails on any skill check.
Though on UMD if you do fail on a 1 (modifier < 19) you can't use the item again for 24 hours. Ya, I hate all the excessive rules complications >_<. The OP might want to keep a backup wand until he gets a +19 modifier.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-19, 12:20 AM
Alas wands have a minimum casting time of a standard action. Scrolls OTOH can cast swifts. They're a move action to draw (and can't be quick drawn since they don't have a weapon-like grip like wands do), but you can still get 2 spells per round that way. Or again he could dip 1 level of wizard if he wants.

Rules Compendium states that wands can be cast as a per the spell (i.e. swift or standard action) Doesnt work for pathfinder though, i dont think... *sigh*

Thus, wands of Swift Invisibility are perfectly viable.

Also, you do fail on UMD checks if you roll a 1, and you can't use the item again for 24 hours.

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 12:46 AM
Are you sure it doesn't say that only for scrolls? If so that's a rules change rather than a clarification. The SRD says wands are standard or the original casting time, whichever is greater. That's very clear. For scrolls the SRD says standard in one place and original casting time in another, contradicting itself. I assumed the rules compendium clarified that mess.

Yeup once you hit a +19 modifier natural 1's don't matter.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-19, 12:52 AM
I am almost positive that wands use whatever the the spell uses as per casting time. Since i do not physically posses the said rules compendium, i cannot check this for you.

However, many peoples on the forum have made it clear to me multiple times that it is so. However, again, I cannot prove it, and am only going on hearsay.

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 12:55 AM
Hmm, found someone quoting rules compendium directly: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6981535&postcount=1

So it's pretty likely that what he says is accurate. Looks like they changed the rule. What's more a wand of feather fall isn't on the treasure tables but a scroll of feather fall is.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-19, 12:56 AM
yeah... so again, swift invisibility wand and a decent rogue = win.

Kerrin
2011-01-19, 01:31 PM
Thank you for the input, folks. I'll be working out my rogue in the near future. Can't wait to see how it turns out - should be lots of fun!

Kerrin
2011-01-19, 04:35 PM
You may also dip a level of wizard for free wand use of any level, no check to roll.
This is an interesting idea intead of having to pump UMD really high.

I'd lose a few skill points, a couple of hit points, and possibly a bit of BAB.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-19, 04:39 PM
This is an interesting idea intead of having to pump UMD really high.
The superior option is to dip a level of Cloistered Cleric, with the Magic domain, instead of Wizard. You'll be able to use all Wizard and Cleric wands. You'll also get (6 + INT mod) skill points, as well as the granted powers of Knowledge and one other domain. You'll get a boost to Fortitude saves, plus Lore. You'll also have turn undead attempts that you can use to power feats like Travel Devotion. That seems like a better deal than Summon Familiar and Scribe Scroll feats.

Kerrin
2011-01-19, 06:29 PM
Cloistered Cleric sounds interesting, but we don't usually play using Alternative Class Features.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

Curmudgeon
2011-01-19, 06:42 PM
Cloistered Cleric sounds interesting, but we don't usually play using Alternative Class Features.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
Regular Cleric with the Magic domain is still superior from the standpoint of wand use, because of access to both spell lists.

Kerrin
2011-01-19, 07:27 PM
Hey, thanks for the alternate cleric-y suggestion - sounds like an interesting possibility. And, you may have just given me a spark for a background for the character.

sreservoir
2011-01-19, 08:58 PM
The superior option is to dip a level of Cloistered Cleric, with the Magic domain, instead of Wizard. You'll be able to use all Wizard and Cleric wands. You'll also get (6 + INT mod) skill points, as well as the granted powers of Knowledge and one other domain. You'll get a boost to Fortitude saves, plus Lore. You'll also have turn undead attempts that you can use to power feats like Travel Devotion. That seems like a better deal than Summon Familiar and Scribe Scroll feats.

well, cloistered cleric also gets scribe scroll for free. so really just summon familiar. and it has another domain!

Curmudgeon
2011-01-19, 09:26 PM
well, cloistered cleric also gets scribe scroll for free.
I believe your memory is playing tricks on you. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

Cog
2011-01-19, 10:42 PM
well, cloistered cleric also gets scribe scroll for free. so really just summon familiar. and it has another domain!
You're likely thinking of Archivists; they do get Scribe Scroll.

Thespianus
2011-01-20, 12:15 AM
Or grab one single level of Wizard, which will completely nullify the need to take Feats that enhance UMD.

Everyone should have a level of Wizard. ;)

EDIT: Bah, ninjasages, everywhere

Kerrin
2011-01-20, 08:40 AM
Hmm, doing a quick comparison between taking a level of sorcerer/wizard vs cleric with magic domain...

With cleric I'd get better saving throw bonuses, not lose the few hit points and gain the ability to use wands with both divine and arcane spells without having to roll. On the down side, my character would be bound by their deity's whims.

With sorcerer/wizard I'd gain the ability to use wands with arcane spells without having to roll, plus a familiar (and scribe scrolls with wizard). On the down side, I'd not get quite as good a save boost as with cleric and lose a few hit points.

With either, I'm losing a few skill points and taking a hit on my BAB (I need to look up the to-hit mechanics with wands to determine if the loss of 1 BAB would hurt mich - hoping a good Dex would mitigate that some). Also with either I'd gain not having to spend feats to pump up UMD like crazy.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 10:09 AM
With cleric I'd get better saving throw bonuses, not lose the few hit points and gain the ability to use wands with both divine and arcane spells without having to roll. On the down side, my character would be bound by their deity's whims.
This is necessarily the case only in Forgotten Realms. In other settings your Cleric needn't be devoted to a deity.
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities.

Thespianus
2011-01-20, 02:20 PM
Hmm, doing a quick comparison between taking a level of sorcerer/wizard vs cleric with magic domain...

(...)

With sorcerer/wizard I'd gain the ability to use wands with arcane spells without having to roll, plus a familiar (and scribe scrolls with wizard). On the down side, I'd not get quite as good a save boost as with cleric and lose a few hit points.

Or, you go nuts with the Wizard ACFs that are around, and pick a specialized Conjurer with the Abrupt Jaunt ACF and the Wizard Fighter variant from UA. With the Wizard fighter-variant, you get a Fighter feat, that you can use to pick (for example) Improved Initiative, something that's a lot of fun for a Rogue Wand-wielder. :)

Kerrin
2011-01-25, 10:14 AM
Sticking with a mostly core Rogue 5, I can get UMD up to +17 via...

8 ranks + 4 charisma bonus + 3 skill focus UMD + 2 Magic Aptitude feat

However, that requires pumping up Charisma to 18 and burning two feats.

So, I'm most likely going to go with one level of either cleric (magic domain) or wizard. Makes using scrolls of higher than first level still require a UMD roll (at a lower bonus), but wands become a gimme to use.

Thanks for all the help and input! :smallsmile:

Now to go consider which feats to take since I won't need to spend them on pumping up UMD!