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vanyell
2011-01-19, 11:58 AM
I'm in a 4e group with mixed optimization levels. When I started the game I assumed a ranger would be safe enough, stand back and shoot a bit, and I should be pretty balanced. After about 2 sessions I was out-damaging my party members about 2-1 so I stopped using anything but at-wills (twin strike) and I'm still outperforming everyone.

My DM is getting rather frustrated, and I have offered to retire the character in exchange for something a little less powerful, but the DM said that my character has become "plot important" so I can't retire him.

Without massive retraining to nerf myself, how can I bring myself down to the rest of the party?

Party Composition

Me: Archery ranger, twin strike and that's about it

Rogue: Stacking +to hit and status effects (blind, stun, immobilize etc.)

Warlord: Playing as a tank, boosts his and everyone elses AC up the wazoo and does our healing

Wilder( think that's the name): Built as a tank, and does a small amount of damage not very optimized

All level 10, right near paragon

TL;DR version: my ranger is too powerful. how do I match my party a bit more without shooting myself in the foot?

Kurald Galain
2011-01-19, 12:04 PM
After about 2 sessions I was out-damaging my party members about 2-1 so I stopped using anything but at-wills (twin strike) and I'm still outperforming everyone.
You're a ranger: you should be out-damaging everyone. However, out-damage does not mean out-perform! Other characters have other areas of expertise.

For example, the rogue can blind and stun people; your ranger likely can't. The warlord makes a huge difference on most tables, but he does that by making other people better at their jobs, so this isn't necessarily obvious. The warden's job is to be unkillable and lock down enemies. You don't seem to have an area-effect specialist, but that's also a viable party role.

So I think what's wrong here is the DM's perception.

Ceaon
2011-01-19, 12:21 PM
To summarize: most damage =/= most valuable.
In 4E, healing, protecting, buffing, debuffing and other effects are all as important as dealing damage.

However, you can change weapons (two daggers? - that seems weak) and go into melee: the DM will want to attack you so the defender and leader will become more important, while the rogue will be able to flank more easily.

Arbitrarity
2011-01-19, 12:33 PM
Indeed. Damage isn't the only contribution to fights.
Consider talking to your party members, see how they feel about this. Additionally, the DM should probably be trying to focus fire on you a bit, and possibly increase the number of enemies to make doing so viable. By doing that, he gives other party members an extra chance to shine by protecting their relatively squishy damage.

vanyell
2011-01-19, 12:42 PM
the DM does focus on me, when he can, but both the warden and the wilder both mark whatever we're fighting (our DM likes to throw one big monster at us rather then swarms. for instance, he wanted to challenge us, so he threw a level 22 demon at us at level 10 rather then a solo and a bunch of minions). so swarms would probably be more effective in your opinion?

Ceaon
2011-01-19, 12:45 PM
Twelve Gods, yes.

An encounter consisting of a lurker, 10 minions, 3 brutes, 2 soldiers, 4 artilleries and two skirmishers is way more dangerous than an encounter consisting of a single solo, even if they are worth equal xp.

Squark
2011-01-19, 12:51 PM
Yeah, even from my limited knowledge of 4e tactics, this is wise. Strikers are supposed to do great at taking out a single target.


Make sure you approach telling him this the right way. Don't be critical, just suggest that these changes might help make the campaign more fun for everyone (better yet, ask someone else here how to do this)

vanyell
2011-01-19, 12:52 PM
I'll pass on the ideas

A couple of my party members were rather bored when he dropped the demon on us. Only 2 of the party couple hit it without rolling nat 20s.

Siegel
2011-01-19, 12:54 PM
I'm in a 4e group with mixed optimization levels. When I started the game I assumed a ranger would be safe enough, stand back and shoot a bit, and I should be pretty balanced. After about 2 sessions I was out-damaging my party members about 2-1 so I stopped using anything but at-wills (twin strike) and I'm still outperforming everyone.

My DM is getting rather frustrated, and I have offered to retire the character in exchange for something a little less powerful, but the DM said that my character has become "plot important" so I can't retire him.

Without massive retraining to nerf myself, how can I bring myself down to the rest of the party?

Party Composition

Me: Archery ranger, twin strike and that's about it

Rogue: Stacking +to hit and status effects (blind, stun, immobilize etc.)

Warlord: Playing as a tank, boosts his and everyone elses AC up the wazoo and does our healing

Wilder( think that's the name): Built as a tank, and does a small amount of damage not very optimized

All level 10, right near paragon

TL;DR version: my ranger is too powerful. how do I match my party a bit more without shooting myself in the foot?

And keep in mind, Twin Strike ist more or less THE most damaging at-will

Kurald Galain
2011-01-19, 01:15 PM
our DM likes to throw one big monster at us rather then swarms.

Well, there is the problem. Combat against a single big enemy should be the exception rather than the rule. A normal combat is against five or six monsters, or perhaps four with a bunch of minions.

Sipex
2011-01-19, 01:43 PM
Agreed with the others, you're doing fine and it sounds like your party is performing very well too (each fulfilling different roles). It's just the combination of big damage numbers (which always look flashy) and one target is what's putting you on top.

I definitely think if the DM threw more groups of monsters at you (with varying tactics and roles) that you would no longer find yourself overpowering your allies.

Grogmir
2011-01-19, 01:47 PM
I'll pass on the ideas

A couple of my party members were rather bored when he dropped the demon on us. Only 2 of the party couple hit it without rolling nat 20s.

:smalleek::smallfurious:

Seriously this isn't your character, Rangers are the most single damage class in the game yes - but they don't do anything else.

unfortunately and I say this as a DM - you main problem is the DM.

Its well known in 4th that Solo's don't work. ALWAYS are lots of minions for your BBEG.

As for giving a monster only Two players could only hit on a 20 thats a DMIng no no.

However there are a few things you can do.
Twin Strike: This is very powerful - double chance to hit / crit. Oh yeah. Consider using something else as a last resort.
Go to Melee more: RP out you offering to help the Rogue more with getting CA, Together you'll both get +2 to hit AND he'll be doing what 2d8? More on each turn.
Big up your Teammates: Its unfortunate but the +2 AC bonus the Warden gave that just saved your bacon doesn't get noticed as that hit you just did - but they are both just as important. When it happens RP it out. Thank them in game, describe how they just helped you.

Hzurr
2011-01-19, 01:57 PM
I'll echo what everyone else has said, I think the problem is one of perspective.

4E does very poorly when you're only fighting one monster (recent Solos in the MV and MM3 have answered a lot of those issues, however). Encounters are built so that you should be fighting groups of monsters, each with their own special role, just like PCs. Talk to your DM about encounter building, because things like throwing a lvl 22 against lvl 10 characters is bad encounter design. (I think the DMG explicitly says to never have a monster higher than Party Level +5, else no one will be able to hit and the monster will never miss).

As far as you doing too well, one issue is that you're a ranger, the highest single target damage dealer in the game (using the highest damage at-will in the game). However, if the monsters are unable to focus on you due to the Warden; this means that the Warden/Wilden is doing his job. He's a defender, his job is to keep those monsters off of his allies (which it sounds like he's doing). If the Warlord is keeping everyone one else on their feet this means the Warlord is doing his job. It sounds like you actually have a very effective party, especially since the rogue is taking on some controllery effects.

Try bringing these things up when you play with them. Feel free to comment to the Warden "Hey, thanks for keeping those guys occupied. They would have destroyed me if you weren't there." Tell the Warlord "Wow, if you hadn't been there to keep us all on our feet, that battle would have gone really, really bad." Point out to everyone that they are filling their rolls, just as you're filling your roll as a Striker.

As for the DM, encourage him to read the DMG/DMG2/EssentialsDM kit, and review how encounters are supposed to be designed. One of 4E's biggest strengths is it's encounter design. Make sure your DM is aware of what the underlining assumptions are, so that he can make challenging encounters. A few well placed lurkers, and he can really put the hurt on your ranger (which will require the defenders and the leaders to come to your aid, so they can feel useful)

TheEmerged
2011-01-19, 02:27 PM
Okay, I'll open by seconding some already-stated opinions.

1> You *should* be doing 2-1 damage over everyone in your group except the rogue. You're a striker, that's your job.

2> Yes, Twin Strike is one of if not the most damaging at-will out there.

3> Part of the problem is the type of encounters your DM is throwing at you; a single big target favors strikers. In the low paragon levels I found most encounters that worked had at least 4-5 opponents of various types.

-------------------

Now, for advice I'm not seeing from someone else.

1> If your DM wants to continue using single-hardened targets, s/he needs to make some changes. I have found Aura-type powers (effectively allowing the 'boss' to act out of turn) to be good at this.

2> Another thing that can help is to invoke a "bladeturn" type defense for the boss, allowing him to ignore a certain number of hits. A boss I used recently essentially had a "save" roll to make any physical attack miss (3 of the 5 party members use primarily physical damage), one success until the beginning of his next turn. I think I should have allowed 2 successes... This makes it more a matter of how many hits the boss takes than how big.

3> Your party lacks a controller. If I was DMing your group, I'd feel I wasn't doing my job if I wasn't making the party notice this. Monster defense scores should be going up, ranged minions should be more common (perhaps requiring 2 ranged hits or 1 melee hit to defeat).

4> I am somewhat stuck on the report you're doing 2-1 over the rogue. As I mentioned, the rogue in the party I DM is getting his sneak attack damage nearly every turn. Is this true of your rogue as well? If not, the rogue may want to look into power selection (does s/he have the Clever Strike at-will?), feat selection (take a special look at the feats expanding the conditions allowing combat advantage), and tactics (if you aren't getting CA for this attack, why are you making it?). Also, other members of the party may want to re-examine their power selection to see if there are ways they can grant CA to the rogue.

Fallbot
2011-01-19, 02:29 PM
It's definitely a question of perspective. I'm playing two characters at the moment, a ranger and an artificer and, while the ranger easily does twice as much damage, that's all he can do. Sure, dealing a ludicrous amount of damage with one shot is fun, but smugly telling the DM "Well actually Player X's attack did hit just now. Aren't you forgetting the +2 to attack I just gave her? Or the -1 to the target's AC? I thought so. Oh, and remember she deals an extra +somethingludicrous damage with that attack. Why? Because I said so :smallcool:" just cant be beat.

You just need to make sure the other players (and the DM!) appreciate they're contributing in other ways. Pretty much like everyone else has already said, so I don't really know why I felt the need to chime in.

Doug Lampert
2011-01-19, 03:30 PM
the DM does focus on me, when he can, but both the warden and the wilder both mark whatever we're fighting (our DM likes to throw one big monster at us rather then swarms. for instance, he wanted to challenge us, so he threw a level 22 demon at us at level 10 rather then a solo and a bunch of minions). so swarms would probably be more effective in your opinion?

If you think you're too strong just make sure you're not adding your ability modifier to twin strike damage. Twin strike does 1[W] per hit, NOT 1[W]+dex per hit. That's a mistake I've seen people make. Once you've checked that, take lots of interrupt and minor action attack powers for your encounters and dailies. Disruptive strike is golden. It lets you return the favor of other people protecting you.

As for the level 22 demon: Did your DM even READ the encounter design guidelines in the DMG? Did he even crack the book open to that chapter?

I mean seriously, they recommend monsters no more than 4 levels lower or 7 levels higher than the party. Level 22 vs. Level 10 is 12 levels difference. 12>>7, and note that seven is ALREADY pushing the bounds of what's really reasonable.

They also recommend GROUPS of monsters and interesting terrain. Terrain and cover can screw with an archer ranger, and groups of monsters let everyone play.

If he wants to TPK your group, then at least let him do it interestingly with a horde of minions of appropriate level backed by dozens of standards and elites of appropriate level. That can be a fun battle even when you don't have a real chance to win (especially if there's some other objective you can achieve like holding them off for enough turns for the ritual to finish or killing those blocking your escape route so you can run away from the others).

As others have said, your group is WORKING. Everyone is doing his job, it just happens that the Ranger's job is "kill things", and everyone else is built to "help the ranger stay alive and kill things", it's not surprising that you kill things.

Lanval26
2013-11-13, 07:06 PM
From one DM to another, I would tell your DM to deal with it. There's plenty of ways for your DM to allow his or her players to be the biggest baddest heroes they can be while not getting "frustrated" with them. For example: cheating. I cheat constantly as a DM; ESPECIALLY when it enhances the game for my players. My monsters crit 20, crit fail, accidentally kill their own minions, have stupid made up powers on the fly, take extra damage, and sometimes take no damage at all.

Roland St. Jude
2013-11-13, 08:53 PM
Sheriff: Thread necromancy is disfavored here.