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Hawkflight
2011-01-19, 04:26 PM
Hello everybody.

I'm about to begin an 8th-level D&D campaign set in a gladiatorial combat setting. In addition to 1v1 PvP battling, there will probably be stealth, trickery, and making alliances and betrayals as well, although the DM was very stingy with the details. (He said he didn't want to ruin the surprise, just to be ready for anything.) I've already decided on being a Tibbit Rogue with two levels in Swordsage. I've also taken a level of Scout for Skirmish, and a level of Swashbuckler was a no-brainer. (I only lose 1d6 of Skirmish for a bonus to Reflex Saves and AC, pretty sweet deal.) Naturally I took a couple of cross-class feats (Swift Ambusher and Daring Outlaw, I think), Improved Skirmish, and Shadow Blade to add my substantial Dex to my attacks. I also got the feat that adds your character level in damage to Sneak Attacks.

So I was wondering if anybody had any advice on this character? I'm willing to change a few things if it makes him better. Any published material is allowed. I am allotted 5,000 GP to spend on equipment, and have already purchased a couple of Wands (Mage Armor and Shield) in conjunction with the Use Magic Device skill. This leaves me with 3,500 GP to purchase weapons, armor, and other items. I've already decided to get a siangham or three and a crossbow, any other advice?

EDIT: I'm now considering using the Pathfinder Rogue and getting Minor Magic and Major Magic, allowing me to cast Mage Armor and Shield without having to use a wand. So this would increase my available GP to the entire 5,000. I'm also thinking of getting Wand Chambers, and maybe picking up a couple of somewhat more offensive wands, although I dunno if this would be better than using sianghams straight up, considering Shadow Blade and such. Thoughts?

MAJOR EDIT:


Not to spoil all your fun but those feats have Pre-reqs that ruin your plan.

Daring Outlaw (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daring_Outlaw) requires "Grace +1" which means you need 2 levels of Swash.

Swift Ambusher (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Swift_Ambusher) requires "Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC", Scout doesn't get the AC until 3rd level.

My recommendation is to drop Scout completely, take levels in Pathfinder Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue) with the "Scout" alternate features. At Rogue 4 you trade Uncanny Dodge to gain "Skirmish" like usage of your Sneak Attack.

Instead of Scout, take that extra level as Swash, this gets you the "Grace" needed for Daring Outlaw. Depending on your Int modifier, you may also want to take Swash 3 to gain Insightful Strike.

My two alternate builds are
PF-Rogue 4/Swash 4, with Daring Outlaw and "Scout" alt-Rogue
gets 4d10+4d8 hd, 7 Bab, 4d6 Sneak (4d6 "skirmish" on a charge), Grace 1, Dodge 1, 2 Rogue Talents, Weap Finesse, and Int to damage.

PF-Rogue 4/Swash 2/Swordsage 2, with Daring Outlaw, and "Swashbuckler" alt-Rogue
2d10+6d8 hd, 6 Bab, 3d6 Sneak, Grace 1, Dodge 1, 2 Rogue Talents, Weap Finesse, Swordsage Maneuvers. The "Swashbuckler alt-Rogue" trades Trapfinding/sense in exchange for the ability to take the combat trick rogue talent twice, and a +1 bonus to Acrobatics and Fear saving throws (to help counter-act the -2 from the Craven feat)

Might also want to sub in a level of Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1), take it instead of the 4th level of Swash (1st suggestion) or Rogue (2nd suggestion). If it replaces Swash 4 you'll lose a bab and a couple hp in exchange for a Will-save boost, an additional 1d6 Sneak, and the ability to steal>cast 0 or 1st level spells.
In the second example, you lose an hp, a Rogue Talent, and Uncanny Dodge, but gain back Trapfinding.

Oh wow, nice catch. Okay, opinions: Instead of ditching Scout, I ditch the Swashbuckler. I replace that level of Swashbuckler with a level of Rogue, and replace Daring Outlaw with Weapon Finesse to get said feat back. Then I ditch two levels of Rogue for two levels of Scout. I lose a d6 of Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, and a Rogue Talent, but gain Fast Movement, 4d6 Skirmish Damage and 3 AC Skirmish with the Improved Skirmish feat. It might seem like only having 2d6 Sneak Attack is a bummer, but I also gain 2d6 SA from Assassin's Stance and, more importantly, Craven.

Thoughts? It does seem a lot simpler, to me anyways. Though I will feel the loss of Major Magic, meaning I'll need a wand each of Mage Armor and Shield until I level up.

Also, no to Spellthief, it's not certain enough that I'll end up going against a spellcaster to make it worth it.

EDIT: Further thoughts: I can continue to advance in Rogue for the SA damage and the Talents, with the occasional dip into Swordsage when I absolutely must have the next-level maneuvers right away.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-19, 05:28 PM
Erm, best advice I can think of is remember that manuevers can be used in cat form?

Nothing more fun than using stone dragon maneuvers to break down a stone wall while having the size, shape and general temperament of a housecat.

Hawkflight
2011-01-20, 12:49 PM
Thanks. The major difficulty I'm having right now is choosing my equipment. The question is, with only 5k to spend (8k if I start out a level lower), do I get a good dagger and crossbow and some other handy equipment, or do I get a wand of Scorching Ray and get just a regular average dagger, just for the purpose of using maneuvers?

grarrrg
2011-01-20, 01:43 PM
I've also taken a level of Scout for Skirmish, and a level of Swashbuckler was a no-brainer. (I only lose 1d6 of Skirmish for a bonus to Reflex Saves and AC, pretty sweet deal.) Naturally I took a couple of cross-class feats (Swift Ambusher and Daring Outlaw, I think),

Not to spoil all your fun but those feats have Pre-reqs that ruin your plan.
Daring Outlaw (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daring_Outlaw) requires "Grace +1" which means you need 2 levels of Swash.

Swift Ambusher (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Swift_Ambusher) requires "Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC", Scout doesn't get the AC until 3rd level.

My recommendation is to drop Scout completely, take levels in Pathfinder Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue) with the "Scout" alternate features. At Rogue 4 you trade Uncanny Dodge to gain "Skirmish" like usage of your Sneak Attack.

Instead of Scout, take that extra level as Swash, this gets you the "Grace" needed for Daring Outlaw. Depending on your Int modifier, you may also want to take Swash 3 to gain Insightful Strike.

My two alternate builds are
PF-Rogue 4/Swash 4, with Daring Outlaw and "Scout" alt-Rogue
gets 4d10+4d8 hd, 7 Bab, 4d6 Sneak (4d6 "skirmish" on a charge), Grace 1, Dodge 1, 2 Rogue Talents, Weap Finesse, and Int to damage.

PF-Rogue 4/Swash 2/Swordsage 2, with Daring Outlaw, and "Swashbuckler" alt-Rogue
2d10+6d8 hd, 6 Bab, 3d6 Sneak, Grace 1, Dodge 1, 2 Rogue Talents, Weap Finesse, Swordsage Maneuvers. The "Swashbuckler alt-Rogue" trades Trapfinding/sense in exchange for the ability to take the combat trick rogue talent twice, and a +1 bonus to Acrobatics and Fear saving throws (to help counter-act the -2 from the Craven feat)

Might also want to sub in a level of Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1), take it instead of the 4th level of Swash (1st suggestion) or Rogue (2nd suggestion). If it replaces Swash 4 you'll lose a bab and a couple hp in exchange for a Will-save boost, an additional 1d6 Sneak, and the ability to steal>cast 0 or 1st level spells.
In the second example, you lose an hp, a Rogue Talent, and Uncanny Dodge, but gain back Trapfinding.

Darrin
2011-01-20, 01:44 PM
Thanks. The major difficulty I'm having right now is choosing my equipment. The question is, with only 5k to spend (8k if I start out a level lower), do I get a good dagger and crossbow and some other handy equipment, or do I get a wand of Scorching Ray and get just a regular average dagger, just for the purpose of using maneuvers?

Gloves of the Uldra Savant (3100 GP, MIC p. 107). Ray of frost at will, 3/day add the frost property to any melee weapon held in your hand. Cats can wear gloves, too.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-20, 01:48 PM
Do Tibbits qualify for Cat Feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)?

Hawkflight
2011-01-20, 04:05 PM
Not to spoil all your fun but those feats have Pre-reqs that ruin your plan.

Daring Outlaw (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daring_Outlaw) requires "Grace +1" which means you need 2 levels of Swash.

Swift Ambusher (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Swift_Ambusher) requires "Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC", Scout doesn't get the AC until 3rd level.

My recommendation is to drop Scout completely, take levels in Pathfinder Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue) with the "Scout" alternate features. At Rogue 4 you trade Uncanny Dodge to gain "Skirmish" like usage of your Sneak Attack.

Instead of Scout, take that extra level as Swash, this gets you the "Grace" needed for Daring Outlaw. Depending on your Int modifier, you may also want to take Swash 3 to gain Insightful Strike.

My two alternate builds are
PF-Rogue 4/Swash 4, with Daring Outlaw and "Scout" alt-Rogue
gets 4d10+4d8 hd, 7 Bab, 4d6 Sneak (4d6 "skirmish" on a charge), Grace 1, Dodge 1, 2 Rogue Talents, Weap Finesse, and Int to damage.

PF-Rogue 4/Swash 2/Swordsage 2, with Daring Outlaw, and "Swashbuckler" alt-Rogue
2d10+6d8 hd, 6 Bab, 3d6 Sneak, Grace 1, Dodge 1, 2 Rogue Talents, Weap Finesse, Swordsage Maneuvers. The "Swashbuckler alt-Rogue" trades Trapfinding/sense in exchange for the ability to take the combat trick rogue talent twice, and a +1 bonus to Acrobatics and Fear saving throws (to help counter-act the -2 from the Craven feat)

Might also want to sub in a level of Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1), take it instead of the 4th level of Swash (1st suggestion) or Rogue (2nd suggestion). If it replaces Swash 4 you'll lose a bab and a couple hp in exchange for a Will-save boost, an additional 1d6 Sneak, and the ability to steal>cast 0 or 1st level spells.
In the second example, you lose an hp, a Rogue Talent, and Uncanny Dodge, but gain back Trapfinding.

Oh wow, nice catch. Okay, opinions: Instead of ditching Scout, I ditch the Swashbuckler. I replace that level of Swashbuckler with a level of Rogue, and replace Daring Outlaw with Weapon Finesse to get said feat back. Then I ditch two levels of Rogue for two levels of Scout. I lose a d6 of Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, and a Rogue Talent, but gain Fast Movement, 4d6 Skirmish Damage and 3 AC Skirmish with the Improved Skirmish feat. It might seem like only having 2d6 Sneak Attack is a bummer, but I also gain 2d6 SA from Assassin's Stance and, more importantly, Craven.

Thoughts? It does seem a lot simpler, to me anyways. Though I will feel the loss of Major Magic, meaning I'll need a wand each of Mage Armor and Shield until I level up.

Also, no to Spellthief, it's not certain enough that I'll end up going against a spellcaster to make it worth it.

EDIT: Further thoughts: I can continue to advance in Rogue for the SA damage and the Talents, with the occasional dip into Swordsage when I absolutely must have the next-level maneuvers right away.

Hawkflight
2011-01-20, 04:06 PM
Gloves of the Uldra Savant (3100 GP, MIC p. 107). Ray of frost at will, 3/day add the frost property to any melee weapon held in your hand. Cats can wear gloves, too.

AND it replaces the need for a wand! Nice one, I'll have to consider it.

Hawkflight
2011-01-20, 04:07 PM
Do Tibbits qualify for Cat Feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)?

Oh, that article! I actually did have a Collar of Perpetual Attendance. Lovely how I'm actually using an item from a joke article.