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View Full Version : [3.5] What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?



Endarire
2011-01-19, 05:58 PM
My groupmates are pondering this. If an optimized Conjurer5/Malconvoker5 (Complete Scoundrel 48) has all the appropriate summonling buffs (Augment Summoning, Ehlonna's Brooch, Fury, Worldmeet Glade, and Fiendish Legion), what can a human Warblade10 fairly offer that's significantly better?

I've been through Tome of Battle and read the Warblade's abilities and maneuvers. Save swap maneuvers, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, and Hearing the Air (30' Blindsight) are seemingly his best tricks.

Toliudar
2011-01-19, 06:04 PM
Well, yes. But I believe we've covered this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

The obvious answer, to me, is: their ideas. Either the warblade is a PC, or an NPC hanging around with the group. Having another perspective on a problem, someone to talk things out with, is usually much more helpful than more muscle.

Aside from the maneuvers that you list, you can also add into consideration WBL gear, and the ability to hang around and contribute all day long.

Force
2011-01-19, 06:05 PM
You're comparing a Tier 3 character to a T1 (possibly high-end T2) class. There's not much contest.

Granted, the T3 character has the advantage of probably being faster to play than the T1 and his legions of summoned minions...

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 06:07 PM
You're comparing a Tier 3 character to a T1 (possibly high-end T2) class. There's not much contest.He's not comparing the warblade to the malconvoker itself...

Toliudar
2011-01-19, 06:08 PM
Really? Well, then, the answer is: "to stick around for more than two minutes."

Beelzebub1111
2011-01-19, 06:09 PM
Staying Power. The warblade can go all day, the wizard will eventually run out of spells and force the party to rest. This is especially handy for multi-floor dungeon crawls.

Jayabalard
2011-01-19, 06:25 PM
Really? Well, then, the answer is: "to stick around for more than two minutes."I mean, that's how I read his question (the summonling)

SurlySeraph
2011-01-19, 06:32 PM
Staying power, versatility once present (he'll usually have more versatility with his maneuvers than any particular summon has in its abilities), some useful skills that neither the Malconvoker nor his summons are likely to have (Knowledge [local] and Martial Lore, for example), reliability (Warblades don't disappear in antimagic fields and can't be banished), its own WBL for any handy items the Malconvoker can't afford, and a guard that you can keep with you at all times without arousing suspicion or getting torch-wielding peasants after you.

Endarire
2011-01-19, 07:37 PM
Warblade Benefits
The main things I've heard are Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, and separate wealth by level. These are true.

From a pure melee perspective, let's compare.

The Malconvoker
A Conjurer5/Malconvoker5 with Augment Summoning, Ehlonna's Brooch, Fury, and Worldmeet glade gets this on his Evil summons:

Summonling Bonuses
+7 HP/HD
+6 melee damage. (+4 on other weapon damage, and +2 on spell damage.)
+4 melee accuracy
+2 Fortitude
+2 on saves, skill checks, and all other d20 rolls. (I also account for this +2 in the melee accuracy.)

And he gets 2 of these things.

Sample Stat Summary: Fiendish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm) Giant Crocodile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm)
Huge Animal; 15' space but only 10' reach
106 HP
16 AC, 9 Touch AC, 15 Flat
Bite: Overcomes DR/Magic, +15 accuracy, 2d8+18 damage (plus Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) and a +25 Grapple modifier)
Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +5
Other misc. bonuses

And he gets 2 of these things.

Toliudar
2011-01-19, 07:44 PM
Endarire, I'm assuming that you're saying that a well-equipped summoner can bring in a creature that can stand toe-to-toe in combat with a warblade and stand a good chance of winning. If that's your point...okay. I don't feel like crunching the numbers. I believe you. I like summoners a lot, and I think they're great.

Is there a larger point that you're trying to make? Because we offered the things that are actually advantages of the warblade - the fact that they're real, a person contributing to the game, are there to react when an unexpected situation happens, and have wealth by level - and the only one of these points that you acknowledged are WBL.

Smiling Knight
2011-01-19, 07:53 PM
{Scrubbed]

JeminiZero
2011-01-19, 08:11 PM
I've been through Tome of Battle and read the Warblade's abilities and maneuvers. Save swap maneuvers, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, and Hearing the Air (30' Blindsight) are seemingly his best tricks.

More precisely, they are his most obvious tricks, based on taking each maneuver or stance on its own merit. You would obviously need to pull off a some optimization-fu of putting the bits together to form a greater sum, to get him to punch on par with a Fiendish Dire Crocodile, let alone an optimized Malconvoker.

For example, lets say you have a Dragonborn Warblade with:
-Leading the Charge Stance
-Pouncing Charge

At this level, Dragonborn lets him fly for 10 minutes per day, and more importantly, allows him to execute a Diving attack on a charge to deal double damage with a piercing weapon. He can hence use this with Leading the Charge and Pouncing Charge for semi-ubercharger damage. Note that this setup is *reasonably* low on investment in that it does not require anything more than a racial template (and an admittedly solid one at that given how it provides flight, the one thing Warblades can't do well), as well as one stance and maneuver.

Example with Numbers: Lets say our Dragonborn has 18 Str, which is kinda piddly for a Warblade at this level. While attacking 2 handed with a halberd, he deals 1d10+6 damage base, or 11.5 on average. On a Pounce, he adds Leading the Charge for +10, and can double all of that with a Diving Charge for 43 per hit. He can attack as many times as his iterative allows (2x default at this level, 3x if he gets haste).

And all this is without power attack or weapon enhancement yet (and he could probably do with a lot better than 18 str). Power Attack in this case adds +4 per -1, due to double damage from 2 hander and double that damage from diving charge. Ergo, a Warblade thus optimized could realistically drop 1 crocodile in 1 round.

Besides that, all the above Diamond Saves/IHS tricks come into play, letting the Warblade shrug off effects that could cripple the Malconvoker.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 09:23 PM
Also, Warblade brings additional utility with Clarion Call (feat), activating sneak attacks for all flanker-types in the party.

Plus, Rabid Mongoose + Time Stands Still... yes, I have a two-handed sword that I'm full-power-attacking with. With more attacks than most TWFing builds. For full Shock Trooper level damage.

Plus, a Warblade can be build more than halfway competently. Something which most summoned critters can't say for themselves. Even with raw number boosts.

Ytaker
2011-01-19, 09:27 PM
Staying Power. The warblade can go all day, the wizard will eventually run out of spells and force the party to rest. This is especially handy for multi-floor dungeon crawls.

The warblade has limited healing magic. Since we're around level 10 here, the summoner will probably have enough juice to outlast the healing of the priest who has an entire party to heal and buffs to cast.

Fighters are just inherently inferior to casters.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 09:29 PM
The warblade has limited healing magic. Since we're around level 10 here, the summoner will probably have enough juice to outlast the healing of the priest who has an entire party to heal and buffs to cast.

Fighters are just inherently inferior to casters.

Warblade has a lot of ways to be not hurt in the first place, starting off with around a 1k damage potential per round to keep opponents from hurting him, and ways to flat guarantee he'll go first against anything except a Wizard specifically tailored to go first.

Ytaker
2011-01-19, 09:33 PM
And Malco can summon a lot of creatures. If the warblade is lucky he might outlast him, but only by draining a lot of clerical magic.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-19, 09:54 PM
And Malco can summon a lot of creatures. If the warblade is lucky he might outlast him, but only by draining a lot of clerical magic.

Kinda hard to hurt the warblade when you're dead...

Last Laugh
2011-01-19, 10:02 PM
And Malco can summon a lot of creatures. If the warblade is lucky he might outlast him, but only by draining a lot of clerical magic.

I seem to remember that Malconvoker's can summon unicorns, or some creature with healing abilities. Can anyone verify this? (let's assume arcane)

Ytaker
2011-01-19, 10:30 PM
Kinda hard to hurt the warblade when you're dead...

Generally encounters are designed with multiple enemies, and often have a mix of ranged and melee opponents.

Also, 1000 damage a round is a bit optimistic for a level 10 warblade, isn't it?

Also, unicorns- summon nature ally 4, druid spell.

JeminiZero
2011-01-19, 10:56 PM
And Malco can summon a lot of creatures. If the warblade is lucky he might outlast him, but only by draining a lot of clerical magic.

At this level of optimization, either the Cleric has already persisted mass lesser vigor on the whole party, or else they have some other infinite out of combat healing trick.

Elfin
2011-01-19, 11:17 PM
Three words, my friend.
Iron Heart Suuuurge!

Beelzebub1111
2011-01-20, 12:31 AM
The point I was trying to make was that, in a Multi-level Dungeon (RtCG, RttToEE, etc.) a fighting class like warblade would be able to get through more rooms while the wizard is starting to run out of spells and having to rest\

Not that one would outlast the other in a one on one fight.

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 12:40 AM
Also, Warblade brings additional utility with Clarion Call (feat), activating sneak attacks for all flanker-types in the party.

Plus, Rabid Mongoose + Time Stands Still... yes, I have a two-handed sword that I'm full-power-attacking with. With more attacks than most TWFing builds. For full Shock Trooper level damage.

Plus, a Warblade can be build more than halfway competently. Something which most summoned critters can't say for themselves. Even with raw number boosts.

How are you full power attacking and hitting? Nothing you mentioned gives you your attack bonus back...unless you are fighting against mooks with no AC/miss chance.

I do agree that a well made warblade is generally better than summons.

Ytaker
2011-01-20, 12:47 AM
The point I was trying to make was that, in a Multi-level Dungeon (RtCG, RttToEE, etc.) a fighting class like warblade would be able to get through more rooms while the wizard is starting to run out of spells and having to rest\

That's not necessarily true. A warblade has limited health, just as a summoner has limited spells. A wizard can use a few spells to dominate an encounter, and keep going through a lot of rooms. This prestige class is especially good at using less spells as they have a special ability that means they summon 1+creatures.

Also, the wizard is fighting at a much higher level than the fighter, being tier 1. They can simply use their lower level spell slots to fight at a similar level to fighters if they run out of high level spells.

Kyuu Himura
2011-01-20, 12:47 AM
OK, so, it is warblade vs summoned muscle, right??

If you mean that as it is written, that is, that you compare a 10th level warblade with a creature you summon for fighting and taking hits for you The warblade comes out on top. Fighting creatures are like Fighters, probably with better numbers. I see this crock of yours and offer you the next strategy....

By level 10 a human warblade can take all of the next feats:
Power Attack (1)
Improved Bull Rush (human)
Stand Still (3)
Ironheart Aura (bonus)
Storm Guard Warrior (by level 6)
Shock Trooper (9)
And a bonus... I don't know, I would go for Imp. Initiative, Combate Reflexes or Blind Fight

Said human warblade with 20 strenght (modest, in my opinion) and a +1 Iron heart and Diamond Mind longspear gets an attack roll of +19, 1d8+8 damage. Now, in the first round of combat he can use the Leading the Charge stance with a Bounding Assault Strike to get an attack roll of +23, he can power attack for full for a +23 and -10 AC; 1d8+38 damage, with bounding assault, he can charge in any direction and even tumble, so the crock doesn't get an AoO, there is a 95% chance that the crock takes an average of 42 damage, almost half it's hit points. The warblade still has his swift action for a wall of blades, since it is an Iron Heart Maneuver, he gets a +2 on that for a total +25, So it's quite possible that the crock doesn't get to bite him.
In round 2, Warblade changes to Dancing blade form with a swift action and then uses Ruby nightmare Blade and power attacks for full, the Concentration check should be easy, since any warblade maximizes concentration, 13 ranks and a humble 16 CON tells that this check doesn't fail. The attack roll should be like a +13 (85% chance of hitting), damage becomes (1d8+28) x2, for an average of 64, if we add that to the 42 it had already taken, we have 106 damage. Crock poofs away.

The warblade, while numerically inferior, has many options the crock lacks, and can dish out good damage even without the improved grab thing.

Flickerdart
2011-01-20, 01:02 AM
Ok, it takes the Warblade two rounds to kill the thing. While two are chomping on his face (or grappling with their impressive modifiers) and a wizard is somewhere doing wizardy things. Warblade is significantly down on action advantage here unless he can act before the crocodiles are summoned.

Kyuu Himura
2011-01-20, 01:18 AM
wasn't it a 10th level caster?? that's summon monster 5 if I'm right... so only 1 crock....

Ytaker
2011-01-20, 01:19 AM
They get 1+ evil creatures. Which is very overpowered.

Kyuu Himura
2011-01-20, 01:23 AM
Also... it wasn't warblade vs summoner, it was Warblade vs Summoned creature. I think I proved that a Warblade can fight better than a summon, of course, an army of the things eat the warblade, but an army of the things eat pretty much everything but a caster of the same tier than the summoner...

Kyuu Himura
2011-01-20, 01:32 AM
Also... pouncing charge (instead of bounding assault), a potion of haste (previously ingested, or dancing mongoose, that works too) and leap attack instead stormguard warrior could kill a croc in one round.

The sequence would be +23/+23/+18 at 1d8+48 each.... ouch.

I suppose the malconvoker could summon 2 of this bad boys every round, but then it is not the crock that outperforms the warblade, it is the caster summoning it, which we already knew was the case, as I put in my sign...

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 01:55 AM
Also... pouncing charge (instead of bounding assault), a potion of haste (previously ingested, or dancing mongoose, that works too) and leap attack instead stormguard warrior could kill a croc in one round.

The sequence would be +23/+23/+18 at 1d8+48 each.... ouch.

I suppose the malconvoker could summon 2 of this bad boys every round, but then it is not the crock that outperforms the warblade, it is the caster summoning it, which we already knew was the case, as I put in my sign...

You cannot use dancing mongoose during a charge. You have to use it before or after (unless charge benefits work on attacks after the charge action). Dancing mongoose is extra attacks for a swift action not a swift action add to your full attack action.

Kyuu Himura
2011-01-20, 02:14 AM
That's the usual reading, I guess... at least it works like that in my group.... but fair enough, one onf those attacks loses 10 points from Leading the charge, Leap Attack says it just "increases the bonus damage from power attack" so that one stays, that makes it 1d8+48; 1d8+48; 1d8+38 for a total of 3d8+134.... I suppose I am making a point here, math aside.
Something you summon with Summon Monster V is not better than a Warblade by itself, the summoner however.... well, read my sign.

Fouredged Sword
2011-01-20, 12:20 PM
Give the warblade a lance and a mount. Now add in spirited charge and mounted combat. Now the mount charges with a White Raven move and gets to attack as well as the rider. Both get bonuses and you get triple damage with the lance. Now you are looking at 150ish damage in a single attack. Dip barbarian and now you kill both summons in a round by charging at a space you an reach both from.

Dip bloodstorm blade and you could make those ranged melee attacks with all the chargeing bonuses with a 10ft move. Now you don't need to wory about reach.

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-20, 12:41 PM
{Scrubbed}

SurlySeraph
2011-01-20, 01:28 PM
You cannot use dancing mongoose during a charge. You have to use it before or after (unless charge benefits work on attacks after the charge action). Dancing mongoose is extra attacks for a swift action not a swift action add to your full attack action.

No, that's incorrect. It's a swift action to activate, and its duration is until the end of the turn. It says "After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield." Pouncing Attack gives you a full attack at the end of a charge, so you make those attacks as part of your full attack, which is part of your charge.

EDIT: That is, it's incorrect to say that it's extra attacks as a swift action rather than extra attacks added to your full attack.

Swooper
2011-01-20, 03:10 PM
How are you full power attacking and hitting? Nothing you mentioned gives you your attack bonus back...unless you are fighting against mooks with no AC/miss chance.
Shock Trooper.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-20, 03:25 PM
The flying Warblade could simply fly over to the Malconvoker and kill it. Sure the crocs kill him afterwords, but this looks like a draw to me.

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 03:37 PM
No, that's incorrect. It's a swift action to activate, and its duration is until the end of the turn. It says "After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield." Pouncing Attack gives you a full attack at the end of a charge, so you make those attacks as part of your full attack, which is part of your charge.

EDIT: That is, it's incorrect to say that it's extra attacks as a swift action rather than extra attacks added to your full attack.

Yea it says you can make additional attacks it does not say that they are part of the same attack action. Further there is no limit on what kind of attack action can allow for the use of the boost. Dancing mongoose can be used off of a standard action attack action, full attack actions, even after using a strike maneuver. In order for it to be used as part of the full attack action (which really only applies on a charge since otherwise why would you care) it would have to say something to the effect of "When you use a full attack action you can initiate this maneuver to add additional attacks to your full attack". There is no mention of any particular kind of attack action and nothing in it says you can add it to a charge (though nothing prevents you from using it after the charge). In fact since the charge has to be used before you use the boost (mongoose requires an attack of some sort since it says you can make additional attacks) it can not be part of the charge since the charge has already happened and swift actions are not interrupts.