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View Full Version : After the Heel Face Turn: How to keep newly good npcs badass



Paseo H
2011-01-19, 09:49 PM
As I'm sure many of you have noticed, a badass evil character, if they switch over to the side of good, might lose what awesome they had.

This doesn't really make any sense, because as my rival puts it, evil is NOT sexy. It's like looking into the pits of hell itself.

What do you recommend to go against Tarquin's observation that people always like the villain better?

Okay, here's an exercise for you...

Rhiannon is a student at a military academy, who is well versed in the use of a special empathic weapon. The drawback of the weapon is that it causes feedback with your primary emotion, causing it to be even stronger than usual.

Rhiannon's primary emotion is noticeable but manageable nihilist tendencies. However, with the influence of the weapon, her nihilism turns into a callous disregard for sentient life, thus turning her into that sort of psychopath you see in every crime movie that ideally crime syndicates should know better than to hire.

It's not that she takes any particular pleasure in it, it's just that she treats killing a human inconvenience the same way normal humans might deal with an insect. Without a higher authority or someone more powerful to bully her into doing otherwise, she will resort to murder for convenience.

However, if certain things are done, she can become free of the link to her empathic weapon, and snap out of her nigh sociopathic disregard for others.

How would you make sure she stays badass after this?

Popertop
2011-01-19, 11:31 PM
You could have her retain her ruthlessly efficient method of dealing with problems. Instead of having complete disregard for human life, she could have disregard for people's expectations and feelings for her, which enables her to accomplish much, unrestricted by the trappings of deep personal connection.
I'm struggling to come up with an example for you, the closest I can think of right now is Mandalore, but even that isn't totally what I have in mind...

I think you see what I'm getting at though.

As far as people liking the villain better, I can't really think of anything right now. But you can look into really badass heroes that are straight up good, and think about why they are so awesome.

Urpriest
2011-01-19, 11:46 PM
Her badass trait seems to be her tendency to cut Gordian Knots. This can be preserved without the weapon, you just need restrictions on which knots to cut. Also, she could use the knowledge she gained while nihilist to enhance her abilities as a combatant while keeping good-aligned values. Example:


"My my, having a hamstring severed hurts, doesn't it?"
<Puts her face very close to the enemy on the ground>
"I could just finish you here...but I have no reason to. Perhaps you will get in my way again. I can take that risk now. I've grown. You, on the other hand, won't risk this desert so easily without the support of your right leg. So perhaps we had best cooperate, hmm?"

Cerlis
2011-01-20, 03:38 AM
generally stuff Evil is seen as badass cus it is either very clever, or because they do something you wouldnt expect and it is often cruel and unecessary, possibly very effective.

I'd look at characters that are Anti heroes. i think there are probably alot of those that are reformed villians and badass.

They keep their badassery by not backing down, creative combat, and going where no one would dare to go.

possiblities are

Violence where violence is not needed: Innkeeper doesnt want to serve customer. Customer breaks table with one hand. Innkeeper now serves customer. (possibly replace Table with someones face. Edit* Ultra bonus points if its the face of an annoying bard that wont shut up!)

Unnecessary powerful display coupled with restraint: a begger annoying you? Teleport them onto a nearby house. Do it without even looking at them or acknowledging their existance. Bonus points if you do it in the middle of a conversation with someone else.

Badass, pseudo sacrificial attack action when there is no other alternative (or possibly cus your ex-villian just hates them that much). Such as getting annoyed with the cocky BBEG, Sticking your hand into a vial of acid, pulling out the magic sword and slicing him in the face getting acid all over his cocky, and now screaming, face in a single move.
Also, Byron the Berserker got lots of heck from fans for being a push over. He regained badass points by stabbing the bad guy in the chest with a spear that issticking out of his own chest
http://guildedage.net/webcomic/chapter-8/chapter-8-page-20/

Rasman
2011-01-20, 03:51 AM
It's...not like I'm posting in this tread because I want to give you some advice or anything. I'm just bored, so don't get the wrong idea. I was just in a good mood and figured a lowly, pathetic mortal like yourself could use the help. I doubt you'll understand anyway, considering it's you, but I'll tell you anyway, since I feel like it. So, you'll listen, ok?

Make her a Tsundere. The personality type seems to fit. Tsundere via Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere) or the MUCH better Tsundere via TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere)

That would be my suggestion. The first paragraph from TVTropes is the epitome of what a Tsundere is, not to mention my version, and it seems to fit the character's personality from what I've read.

Ah...the Glory of a Tsundere......

:smallannoyed:

Don't give me that look...

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-20, 05:57 AM
Her badass trait seems to be her tendency to cut Gordian Knots. This can be preserved without the weapon, you just need restrictions on which knots to cut. Also, she could use the knowledge she gained while nihilist to enhance her abilities as a combatant while keeping good-aligned values.

Particularly like this idea. The NPC seems like a tough customer, gritty, takes no nonsense for an answer, that kind of character.

What I see is that she doesn't HAVE to be Good, but she could be tough on empathy. She might still find it difficult to link things such as "association", "relationship" and "dealing with someone" with empathy, but she could learn soon enough. Going with the idea of TV Tropes, make her an Ice Queen and slowly defrost her, keeping her nihilist tendencies as a driving point. A good-aligned nihilist is the kind of person who has no regrets for life, so it will be hard to have her face any regrets. Thus, by correcting her mistakes while using the empathic weapon, she may end up defying the fate that everything ends in nothing, probably with a smile in her face as she confronts her own death (that doesn't mean that she will be redeemed through death, but that she doesn't care about dying so as long as others don't have to do so).

She could start still harsh and acclimating to being a much nobler person, then much later she could be showing some empathy, but still heavy on the sarcasm and the nihilism. As she defrosts a bit and starts trusting others, she may develop the idea of doing things that may seem reckless to some and extremely dangerous to others, knowing that staying in one place and trying to avoid that fate is pointless; however, she might just be curious as to how her fate might be written in stone. By the time she makes her final choice to become a Good person, she will be a noble, albeit dark, woman who has a peculiar vision about death and the afterlife. A good quote for her would be something along the lines of "you can't alter your fate, but that doesn't mean it's not a hella fun ride to face it. Life is what you make of it, so make sure you do it while you can."

So, in a nutshell: defrost the ice queen and make her a noble daredevil. Someone cocky, daring, whom when confronted with despair accepts it as part of her unavoidable fate instead of dwelling on it.

Rasman
2011-01-20, 06:17 AM
Particularly like this idea. The NPC seems like a tough customer, gritty, takes no nonsense for an answer, that kind of character.

What I see is that she doesn't HAVE to be Good, but she could be tough on empathy. She might still find it difficult to link things such as "association", "relationship" and "dealing with someone" with empathy, but she could learn soon enough. Going with the idea of TV Tropes, make her an Ice Queen and slowly defrost her, keeping her nihilist tendencies as a driving point. A good-aligned nihilist is the kind of person who has no regrets for life, so it will be hard to have her face any regrets. Thus, by correcting her mistakes while using the empathic weapon, she may end up defying the fate that everything ends in nothing, probably with a smile in her face as she confronts her own death (that doesn't mean that she will be redeemed through death, but that she doesn't care about dying so as long as others don't have to do so).

She could start still harsh and acclimating to being a much nobler person, then much later she could be showing some empathy, but still heavy on the sarcasm and the nihilism. As she defrosts a bit and starts trusting others, she may develop the idea of doing things that may seem reckless to some and extremely dangerous to others, knowing that staying in one place and trying to avoid that fate is pointless; however, she might just be curious as to how her fate might be written in stone. By the time she makes her final choice to become a Good person, she will be a noble, albeit dark, woman who has a peculiar vision about death and the afterlife. A good quote for her would be something along the lines of "you can't alter your fate, but that doesn't mean it's not a hella fun ride to face it. Life is what you make of it, so make sure you do it while you can."

So, in a nutshell: defrost the ice queen and make her a noble daredevil. Someone cocky, daring, whom when confronted with despair accepts it as part of her unavoidable fate instead of dwelling on it.

A good resource to look at for someone like this might be The Book of Bantorra, if you can find it that is. The main "Heroine" is almost exactly like this. It's also just a good watch.

Fishman
2011-01-20, 06:43 AM
I dunno. This person sounds pretty much like the kind of person you find in the Special Forces. Even good guys need black ops, eh? You can always cast this person as someone initially presented as an antagonist who later turns out to always have been on their side.

Paseo H
2011-01-20, 09:25 AM
I generally despise tsunderes in general, for personal reasons.

Anyway yeah, at the moment she's perfect for the sort of mission that requires the agent to say 'no witnesses' in a sinister manner before coldly killing all bystanders. But at the moment she will need to respect her other teammate and not kill without good reason. Yes, I intend for this to become a problem for them later. :smalltongue:

Aldizog
2011-01-20, 12:42 PM
You could have her retain her ruthlessly efficient method of dealing with problems. Instead of having complete disregard for human life, she could have disregard for people's expectations and feelings for her, which enables her to accomplish much, unrestricted by the trappings of deep personal connection.
I'm struggling to come up with an example for you, the closest I can think of right now is Mandalore, but even that isn't totally what I have in mind...

This sounds rather like Scorpius, from Farscape. Ruthlessly efficient, few emotional connections, completely unbothered by other peoples' perceptions of him, and yet he must value the lives of "his side" enough to go to the lengths that he does. Individual innocent lives, however, are quickly evaluated on the basis of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one."

Paseo H
2011-01-20, 03:45 PM
I should also note, that she does have moments of normalcy.

For instance, when the party first meets her, she'll be praying at a temple, and then she will seem to quietly take a liking to the leader.