PDA

View Full Version : Critique my Swordsage Monk



Yorae
2011-01-20, 02:42 AM
I've been working on a monk-type character using the unarmed swordsage variant and thought you guys might have some useful feedback/advice.

Been working on this for a bit and this is what I've got:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9079/monku.png

Some things that might be a little obscure:
Since both Monk and Swordsage grant Evasion, I took an alternate class feature, Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil), that lets me turn invisible as an immediate action for one round, with a 3 round cooldown. I thought this would be handy for setting up Shadow Hand maneuvers, aside from the obvious benefits.

The Paralyzing Fists from Drow of the Underdark states that you can strike enemies with multiple stunning fists and, if they are successful, the target must save again (with an increasing DC for each stunning fist they were hit with) or become paralyzed for 1d2 rounds. The DM ruled that the wording of the feat implies that it overrides the "only one stunning fist per round" clause on that feat (which seems to have been conveniently forgotten when this feat was written). I'm aware that that makes Paralyzing Fists strictly superior to Rapid Stunning from Complete Warrior. I figure that I could combine this with Falling Sun Attack (make stunning attack along with a Setting Sun maneuver) and Snap Kick (which can add an additional attack to any attack, including maneuvers) for some extra kick.

Any alternate feats, features, maneuvers, etc. that jump out for this guy? I know Weapon Finesse seems natural here, but assume that he has a strength score high enough to make it irrelevant.

I wanted to make sure that I didn't miss any obviously great maneuvers or pick any that are terrible without realizing it, etc. One of the problems with Falling Sun Attack is that... well... there aren't very many Setting Sun strikes that AREN'T throws.. and the ones that aren't tend to suck (e.g., Strike of the Broken Shield).

Tornado Throw isn't as effective without the Monk's Fast Movement (which I don't gain with the two-level dip), but I'm attempting to make up for that with a pair of Boots of Expeditious Retreat.

Any advice welcome.

Darkfire
2011-01-20, 05:07 AM
I don't think you qualify for Improved Natural Attack: Based on your feat selection at 1st, I'm assuming that your character is either a Human or Strongheart Halfling so won't have a natural weapon. Consider Superior Unarmed Strike instead.

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 05:37 AM
I am sure that the OP is applying imp. natural attack to his unarmed strike which is legal.

Superior unarmed strike would also be nearly useless since the op already has 18 levels of monk unarmed damage (assuming they do not stack in game which they might).

Yorae
2011-01-20, 05:49 AM
I am sure that the OP is applying imp. natural attack to his unarmed strike which is legal.

Superior unarmed strike would also be nearly useless since the op already has 18 levels of monk unarmed damage (assuming they do not stack in game which they might).

Exactly this. Superior Unarmed Strike is good, assuming you take no more than 16 levels of a class that gives unarmed strike damage progression. It doesn't give any benefit past that and the "normal" progression catches up. It just lets you get the upgrades 4 levels earlier.

Devmaar
2011-01-20, 07:04 AM
Why bother with monk at all? Stunning fist and Flurry of Blows can't be combined with manoeuvres and there's a Shadow Hand boost that can gives you the short-term invisibility benefit without trading in Evasion.

You may also want to consider Shadow Garrotte or Shadow Noose for a chance to do something from range.

Darkfire
2011-01-20, 07:14 AM
Whoops, I completely forgot about that clause in Unarmed Strike about getting to treat it as a natural weapon. :smallredface: Shows how often I play with monks. I take it you'll switch over to the Large monk damage progression as a result?

Prime32
2011-01-20, 07:16 AM
Why bother with monk at all? Stunning fist and Flurry of Blows can't be combined with manoeuvres.Yes they can. :smallconfused: Stunning Fist and Flurry of blows have no rules against combining them with other abilities (they just modify an attack and a full attack respectively, and don't require an additional action). Heck, Falling Sun Attack even makes your Stunning Fist stronger when you deliver it through a strike.

Devmaar
2011-01-20, 07:23 AM
Yes they can. :smallconfused: Stunning Fist and Flurry of blows have no rules against combining them with other abilities (they just modify an attack and a full attack respectively, and don't require an additional action). Heck, Falling Sun Attack even makes your Stunning Fist stronger when you deliver it through a strike.

My mistake, I thought Stunning Fist took an action. I'm right about Flurry of Blows though:


A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows

A strike is a separate action, so it can't be combined with a full attack. It could be used with Time Stands Still for example, but not any of the 'Gemstone Blade' line.

Unless I'm reading it wrong :smalltongue:

FMArthur
2011-01-20, 08:10 AM
They are admittedly a bit high level, but a couple of Tiger Claw boosts can replicate Flurry of Blows.

Prime32
2011-01-20, 09:00 AM
They are admittedly a bit high level, but a couple of Tiger Claw boosts can replicate Flurry of Blows.As can the Snap Kick feat. But better, since you can use it whenever you make one or more attacks. (Double Flyby Attack? Double AoO?)

Yorae
2011-01-20, 02:02 PM
The Shadow Hand maneuver that lets you turn invisible can't be reused unless you use Adaptive Style and burn a whole turn to re-ready your maneuvers -- Invisible Fist can. Flurry of Blows amounts to being able to use Flashing Sun over and over without recharging it, which is okay, I guess, but I was thinking that it would be nice to be able to flurry -> paralyzing. I'm not sure if flurry can be combined with other maneuvers that are full round attacks.

Monk also lets me pick up Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, without meeting the requirements. Otherwise, you need a +8 BAB to take it.

As for ranged... well, that's what Leaping Flame and Shadow Blink are there for, not to mention Balance on the Sky -- so I don't need to be ranged.
Also, maybe a friendly arcane caster that can cast Blood Wind, maybe? Or maybe some kind of magic item with that effect?

I like the "Mongoose" line of Tiger Claw maneuvers that add extra attacks, but it feels like so much of their effect is wasted, since this guy isn't a TWF-er.

Devmaar
2011-01-20, 03:00 PM
Ask your DM if you can TWF with unarmed strikes.

Yorae
2011-01-20, 03:28 PM
Ask your DM if you can TWF with unarmed strikes.

That would be awesome, especially since unarmed strikes are always light weapons. Isn't there some kind of clause, though, about how Imp. Unarmed Strike means that you "have no off hand" or something like that?

Edit: Found it -- how does this play into possibly using TWF for unarmed strikes?



At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

I see this working one of two ways --

It's either totally awesome, since the Monk could TWF with no penalty on the second attack and apply full STR mod to it... or it makes it impossible for a Monk to TWF with unarmed strikes.

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 03:42 PM
That has always been a testy subject though most things I have seen say it is allowed, especially since you could wield a weapon in your main hand and you are for sure allowed to attack with an unarmed attack in addition to it by two weapon fighting. There are some that think that sentence was about how a monk could use any part of their body to deliver an unarmed attack and they were all equally effective. This would be seen as required if you think that such a clarification would be needed so DMs could not say "hey a head butt would not be as main hand as your fist so you will treat it as an off hand weapon for penalties even though you are not getting an extra attack". Seen stuff like that happen before.

Yorae
2011-01-20, 05:48 PM
So, after reading up on it, it looks like a Monk can TWF with unarmed strikes, which is pretty neat. I'll take a flaw at first level and pick up the feat.

The extra attacks also make Stunning/Paralyzing Fists a bit better. This makes Flurry of Blows less attractive, but the levels of Monk are still very attractive to me because of the the bonus feats and Invisible Fist, which I still think could be very powerful.

Even if Flurry stacks with TWF and Snap Kick... that's going to be a -6 to all attacks, since Flurry won't get any better... and aside from Time Stands Still, I'm probably going to mostly be using strikes instead of full-round attacking over and over.

Maybe there's some other alternate class feature I can trade Flurry for that would be more useful?

I'll see if I can find anything like that and also rework my maneuvers, now that Tiger Claw is a much more attractive discipline.

Yorae
2011-01-20, 07:30 PM
I found a nice alternate feature in Dragon #310 -- Raging Monk. I'd lose Flurry of Blows and gain Rage 1/day as Barbarian, which would be nice to help counteract the attack roll penalty on the extra attacks with the strength bonus. Maybe I can sneak in Extra Rage somewhere, somehow? Falling Sun Attack doesn't seem to be doing too much good, so maybe I'll switch that one out.

JaronK
2011-01-20, 07:41 PM
There's actually an FAQ on the topic of Monks and Unarmed Strikes (the main one, IIRC), which says you can. So there's that.

JaronK

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 07:53 PM
Whoops, I completely forgot about that clause in Unarmed Strike about getting to treat it as a natural weapon. :smallredface: Shows how often I play with monks.
This has got nothing to do with Monks. Unarmed strike is never anything other than a natural weapon. Monks also get to treat unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon, which it clearly is not.

Yorae
2011-01-20, 08:33 PM
I just realized that being in a rage prevents you from using Tumble.... how lame.

Arg... found an awesome alternative to rage that gives STR/DEX instead of STR/CON and fits very well... but you have to give up all variants of rage (which I could give up)... and, for some reason, Indomitable Will (which I would never gain and can't give up). Meh.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-20, 09:11 PM
They are admittedly a bit high level, but a couple of Tiger Claw boosts can replicate Flurry of Blows.


As can the Snap Kick feat. But better, since you can use it whenever you make one or more attacks. (Double Flyby Attack? Double AoO?)

Well, if you have both the boost and Snap Kick, you can make Flurry of Blows work even better. The thing is that you'll have a poor attack ratio (-4 to hits), but you'll add pretty much 2-3 hits on a full attack, which is as much as you'd do with TSS normally.

With TSS, though, is a different matter. Normally, you'd get 3 hits; with Snap Kick and Flurry of Blows, you'd get 5 hits per full attack, for a grand total of 10 hits. If you have a good way to hit with them all, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip is phenomenal; heck, if you can land at least 6 hits, you'll deal quite a lot of damage (and if you notice, Flurry of Blows AND Snap Kick both add one damage at your highest attack bonus). If you want more hits, though, Raging Mongoose is slightly better. The only lamentable thing is that you wouldn't get Double Boost, since Raging Mongoose and GWFR on the same attack action is utterly devastating when combined with TSS. Recall also that Flurry of Blows (and Snap Kick) work with Pouncing Charge, hence allowing a Flurry-Pounce every few turns.

Still: good call on Invisible Blade. You already get Evasion, so why not kick it up a notch. Invisibility every 3 turns is really, really, really good, and helpful when you want to raise your attack ability (plus it combines real well with Assassin's Stance). Odd that I don't see Pouncing Charge, tho. And I'm not sold on getting Combat Reflexes, considering you could get to qualify for different feats: if you have PHB II, you could get Fiery Fist (a measle 1d6 fire damage with each attack for 1 turn, but it allows you to use Stunning Fist when the enemy is immune to stunning and you can use your multiple attacks for it); if you have Oriental Adventures (a rare call, but it happens), you can replace your bonus feats for the list of bonus feats in the book. However, if there's no other choice, Combat Reflexes is kinda nice if you get a way to exploit it.

Draz74
2011-01-20, 09:21 PM
This has got nothing to do with Monks. Unarmed strike is never anything other than a natural weapon. Monks also get to treat unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon, which it clearly is not.

Can you point me to a source for unarmed strikes being a natural weapon? Because I don't know of anywhere in the rules that supports that, other than the Monk clause that unarmed strikes can be enhanced as if they were natural weapons. I've never seen anything about unarmed strikes fitting into the primary/secondary system of full attacking for natural weapons.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 09:27 PM
Can you point me to a source for unarmed strikes being a natural weapon?
Here are some of the citations.
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).
Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) teat.

Yorae
2011-01-20, 09:50 PM
Well, if you have both the boost and Snap Kick, you can make Flurry of Blows work even better. The thing is that you'll have a poor attack ratio (-4 to hits), but you'll add pretty much 2-3 hits on a full attack, which is as much as you'd do with TSS normally.

With TSS, though, is a different matter. Normally, you'd get 3 hits; with Snap Kick and Flurry of Blows, you'd get 5 hits per full attack, for a grand total of 10 hits. If you have a good way to hit with them all, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip is phenomenal; heck, if you can land at least 6 hits, you'll deal quite a lot of damage (and if you notice, Flurry of Blows AND Snap Kick both add one damage at your highest attack bonus). If you want more hits, though, Raging Mongoose is slightly better. The only lamentable thing is that you wouldn't get Double Boost, since Raging Mongoose and GWFR on the same attack action is utterly devastating when combined with TSS. Recall also that Flurry of Blows (and Snap Kick) work with Pouncing Charge, hence allowing a Flurry-Pounce every few turns.

Still: good call on Invisible Blade. You already get Evasion, so why not kick it up a notch. Invisibility every 3 turns is really, really, really good, and helpful when you want to raise your attack ability (plus it combines real well with Assassin's Stance). Odd that I don't see Pouncing Charge, tho. And I'm not sold on getting Combat Reflexes, considering you could get to qualify for different feats: if you have PHB II, you could get Fiery Fist (a measle 1d6 fire damage with each attack for 1 turn, but it allows you to use Stunning Fist when the enemy is immune to stunning and you can use your multiple attacks for it); if you have Oriental Adventures (a rare call, but it happens), you can replace your bonus feats for the list of bonus feats in the book. However, if there's no other choice, Combat Reflexes is kinda nice if you get a way to exploit it.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is TSS?

Good argument for actually keeping Flurry of Blows, though, especially with the Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, that could get interesting. My problem with that is that the attack penalty for using all of them is pretty severe and it would probably just turn into a Flurry of Misses.

Wouldn't I get a -6, not -4? -2 from flurry, -2 from TWF, -2 from Snap Kick?

I'm also planning on picking up Pouncing Charge when I revise my maneuvers to pick up more Tiger Claw.

JaronK
2011-01-20, 10:13 PM
TSS = Time Stands Still, a VERY nice high level maneuver if you wanted more attacks.

JaronK

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 10:15 PM
Can you point me to a source for unarmed strikes being a natural weapon? Because I don't know of anywhere in the rules that supports that, other than the Monk clause that unarmed strikes can be enhanced as if they were natural weapons. I've never seen anything about unarmed strikes fitting into the primary/secondary system of full attacking for natural weapons.

It is one of those "level" problems in D&D. As in you know how the game uses the term "levels" to mean a lot of things (caster level, character level, class level, etc) the same is true of unarmed attacks and the term natural weapon. In those spells and such unarmed strike is being referred to as a "natural weapon" which in this case stands for a non-manufactured weapon. This is contrasted with the fact that unarmed attacks do not follow the rules for natural weapons in use (unarmed strikes do not have secondary natural attacks and they do use iterative attacks rather than natural attack routine). It is one of those confusing things in 3.5.

Yorae
2011-01-20, 11:40 PM
Our DM has okay'd this guy taking the "Ferocity" alternate feature from Cityscape as an alternative the rage he would get from Raging Monk, even though he wouldn't have Indomitable Will.

Instead of the normal rage (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC, no Cha/Dex/Int/Concentration skills, fatigued at end of rage, lasts 3 + new con mod rounds)

he'd get an alternative rage (+4 Str, +4 Dex, -2 on ranged attack rolls past 30 yards, no Cha/Int/Concentration skills, sickened at end of rage, but can be activated as an immediate action, lasts 4 + unmodified con mod rounds)

This lets me retain the use of Dex-based skills, has no AC penalty, and has some synergy with Shadow Blade as well, at the cost of lasting one fewer round, no extra HP, and having a substantially worse "tired" effect. I'm thinking of picking up a Novice Iron Heart Vest to meet the requirements for Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge, especially since it would only be 3,000g to do so. I could use Surge to cancel the Sickened (or just about anything else -- it's a really awesome maneuver to have around anyway)

Hmmm....

There's another ACF from the same Dragon that gives Raging Monk...

Gain: Can choose Monk bonus feats from Fighter bonus feat list, Intimidate is a class skill.
Lose: -1 skill point per level, No Knowledge skills as class skills

I can trade out Combat Reflexes for Martial Study for a low-level Iron Heart maneuver to qualify for Iron Heart Surge via the Vest.

Edit: Hey, now that I'm TWF-ing, I'm eligible for Bloodclaw Master, which is looking pretty awesome.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-21, 02:31 AM
Good argument for actually keeping Flurry of Blows, though, especially with the Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, that could get interesting. My problem with that is that the attack penalty for using all of them is pretty severe and it would probably just turn into a Flurry of Misses.

Wouldn't I get a -6, not -4? -2 from flurry, -2 from TWF, -2 from Snap Kick?

I was actually working under the idea you wouldn't go with TWF. Since the issue on whether it works or not is so shifty (IMO, I believe TWF stacks but not Multiweapon Fighting, but not every DM will agree with it), I declined adding TWF to the explanation. Hence, it would be -4, an already tough idea when you have 14 BAB (with TWF you'd indeed have a -6 to hits, but about 4 high attack bonus strikes).

However, it shouldn't be so bad to deal with that. First, you can use Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species, if you have it) to add an enhancement bonus to your unarmed strikes (as well as weapon special qualities). Adding Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds, adds Wisdom to attack rolls with simple weapons which include unarmed strikes, but the Exalted tag might be too much) or Weapon Finesse might aid a lot with the attack bonus, as well as attacking people while invisible or denying their Dexterity bonus to AC (considering you have Assassin's Stance, it's perfectly reasonable you want to take advantage of that). With a high score (which will apply to attack and damage rolls, thanks to Shadow Blade), the attack bonus penalty might be minimal.

Then again, that is if you decide to use FoB. For what I can see, you won't, so...

Yorae
2011-01-21, 03:36 AM
Yeah, I decided not to use FoB. The advice is still sound, though. =)

I do have a question to propose....

How does Improved Two-Weapon Fighting interact with the Bloodclaw Master's Superior Two-Weapon Fighting class feature (which states that you do not take the penalty for TWF)?

As an aside: Oskar, if the "T.G." in your name is a reference to T.G. Cid (aka Cid "Thundergod" Orlandu), you win +9999 awesome points.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-21, 06:11 AM
Yeah, I decided not to use FoB. The advice is still sound, though. =)

I do have a question to propose....

How does Improved Two-Weapon Fighting interact with the Bloodclaw Master's Superior Two-Weapon Fighting class feature (which states that you do not take the penalty for TWF)?

It's pretty specific: you don't take the -2 penalty for fighting with two weapons. However, the -5 penalty on the second attack with ITWF still stands.

Essentially: if you have BAB+10, then you go ITWF, the full attack will be +8/+8/+3/+3, without counting for Strength (or Dexterity) modifiers. With Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, the full attack AB will be +10/+10/+5/+5. Basically, you remove the penalty for fighting with light weapons (since you're assumed you're going for the least penalty), but the second attack gained from ITWF is considered an iterative attack, and hence not reduced. If you were fighting with two one-handed weapons, the penalty would still appear (since it states it reduces the -2 penalty, not the -4 penalty), but since you'll be probably using unarmed strikes or Shadow Hand weapons (including and not limited to kama), the only penalty to which it'll apply is to the -2 penalty.


As an aside: Oskar, if the "T.G." in your name is a reference to T.G. Cid (aka Cid "Thundergod" Orlandu), you win +9999 awesome points.

Yes and no. It's partly honoring the Thunder God, and partly because of a weird overpowered character concept I have.

Darrin
2011-01-21, 08:08 AM
This has got nothing to do with Monks. Unarmed strike is never anything other than a natural weapon. Monks also get to treat unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon, which it clearly is not.

Not always so. For the purposes of most of the combat rules, unarmed attacks are treated like manufactured weapons. This means you can make iterative attacks with them, and they can be used as an off-hand weapon for TWF.



Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon


and:



Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).


For the purposes of targeting an unarmed strike with a spell effect, they are treated as natural weapons, as Curmudgeon has noted.

If all unarmed attacks were treated as natural weapons, then you could only make one attack per round with your unarmed strike and you could not use it as an off-hand weapon (it would be treated as a secondary attack with a -5 penalty).

(As far as the Fanged Ring is concerned, I chalk that up to "designer didn't know the rules/editor didn't catch it", and hand-wave it via Rules As Intended.)

Curmudgeon
2011-01-21, 08:13 AM
Not always so. For the purposes of most of the combat rules, unarmed attacks are treated like manufactured weapons.
Unarmed strikes are only natural weapons. (Let's face it: no blacksmith is forging head butts in their smithy, so it's absurd to even think of unarmed strikes as being "manufactured".) They're just a unique natural weapon that uses the iterative attack rules.

Darkfire
2011-01-21, 03:13 PM
They're natural certainly but they're definitely not Natural Weapons as defined here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons). Breaking it down (text quoted from link):

"Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature."
TRUE
"A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
FALSE - Unarmed strikes provoke an AoO unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike.
"Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach."
FALSE - Without Improved Unarmed Strike, you are considered unarmed and therefore cannot threaten any squares.
"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."
FALSE - You do gain additional attacks from a high BAB with unarmed strikes.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-21, 03:55 PM
Unarmed strikes are unique, definitely. They don't share the properties of most other natural weapons. And yet the rules say they're natural weapons, and never anything else (though Monks can treat them as if they were also manufactured).

MeeposFire
2011-01-21, 06:28 PM
Like I said unarmed attacks are natural weapons because they are not manufactured weapons (unless you are warforged:smalltongue:).

They are however not natural weapons in terms of use or for most rules outside of the act they are not manufactured. It is just a lack of imagination on the part of the developers that they did not do a better job defining their terms (just like with levels, heck the comic here lampoons this issue).

begooler
2011-01-26, 01:20 AM
On the TWF. Yes you can with your unarmed strike, and its pretty cool. You can do it while using a flurry of blows as well, but the flurry adds a main hand attack only.

In the monks entry on Flurry of blows:

When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1-1/2 or × 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands.
What situation do you get 1/2 str to an attack other than a secondary attack?

Then there's also the previously mentioned in this thread "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes."

I would keep the flurry and combine it with maneuvers that can be used on a full attack, such Desert wind boosts that add the fire damage on each attack (yeah some things won't be affected by it, but do something else in that situation,) or Dancing Mongoose since it's not going to give you an additional penalty on your attacks. Strikes I would save for situations where you won't be able to get your full attack, such as if you have to move, and even then what you might want to do is Sudden Leap, then take a full attack.

And another thing to try, which may not actually end up being that viable since unarmed strike's crit range doesn't start off good, is to increase your threat range by an available means of your choice and use Blood in the Water. With all those attacks, you've got to be critting at some point. You'll then get bonuses that stack up and help with all the penalties you have on your attacks.