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Gnaritas
2011-01-20, 04:42 AM
So my DM has decided that for our next campaign we will all be dragons, i am not too fond of this, but that's another discussion.

He put us at ECL 12. Looking at the chart in Draconimicon (which will be used), the lowest ECL dragons are:

White Wyrmling (3 RHD, LA +2, ECL 5)
+2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha
Breath weapon: 1d6 cone of cold
Movement: Land 60 ft, Swim 60 ft, Fly 150 ft (Average), Burrow 30 ft
+2 Natural Armor
Ice walking, Immunity to Cold, Vulnerability to Fire

Brass Wyrmling (4 RHD, LA +2, ECL 6)
+2 Con
Breath weapon: 1d6 line of fire, cone of sleep
Movement: Land 60 ft, Fly 150 ft (Average), Burrow 30 ft
+3 Natural Armor
Speak with animals, Immunity to Fire, Vulnerability to Cold

Copper Wyrmling (5 RHD, LA +2, ECL 7)
+2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Breath weapon: 2d4 line of acid, cone of slow gas
Movement: Land 40 ft, Fly 100 ft (Average)
+4 Natural Armor
Spider Climb, Immunity to Acid

Black Wyrmling (4 RHD, LA +3, ECL 7)
+2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Breath weapon: 2d4 line of acid
Movement: Land 60 ft, Swim 60 ft, Fly 100 ft (Average)
+3 Natural Armor
Immunity to Acide, Water breathing

Currently i am considering the Copper Wyrmling with 5 levels of Cleric and DMM to get two spells persistant (using all my feats, a holy symbol and a nightstick, don't know which spells yet).

Other options i am considering:
Melee
A level of Barbarian to get Pounce (1 Bite, 2 claws), but the damage would still be horrific.
Swordsage or Warblade and maximize concentration to get good saves and with a Ring of Diamond Mind to get get Greater Insightful Strike (2x Concentration) to deal damage (about 70).

Anyone got any other fun ideas?

JeminiZero
2011-01-20, 04:55 AM
How about Dragonwrought Kobold. You are technically still a True Dragon. Less LA and RHD means more caster levels.

Mystic Muse
2011-01-20, 04:56 AM
Well, Cleric seems like a better Idea than barbarian since you don't get a boost to strength, and the mental boosts don't particularly help a Barbarian. You could also be a wizard or a Sorcerer since you get a boost to Charisma and Intelligence.

What is it you want to do with this character exactly?

Also, depending on what the white dragon is trying to do I'd ask him to reconsider. A -4 to intelligence and charisma may not be worth the one less hit die.

You could also try and convince your DM to allow homebrew. These classes are made to be much more playable than the normal dragons.

Blue Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7941947&postcount=2) - by Oslecamo
Bronze Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9261499&postcount=189) - by Gorgondantess/Oslecamo
Fang dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9317804&postcount=320) - by unknown
Golden Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9260930&postcount=187) - by Oslecamo
Green Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9260954&postcount=188) - by un_known
Red Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439&postcount=1) - by Oslecamo
Purple Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8927061&postcount=949) - by Oslecamo
Pyroclastic dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9264141&postcount=212) - by Kyuubi/Oslecamo
Silver Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8002450&postcount=108) - by Oslecamo
Styx Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9905425&postcount=158) - by Kyuubi/Oslecamo
White Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9324083&postcount=355) - by un_known



How about Dragonwrought Kobold. You are technically still a True Dragon. Less LA and RHD means more caster levels.
Seems like a fairly bad abuse of the rules, and it sounds like it isn't what the DM intended at all.

Gnaritas
2011-01-20, 05:16 AM
Well, Cleric seems like a better Idea than barbarian since you don't get a boost to strength, and the mental boosts don't particularly help a Barbarian. You could also be a wizard or a Sorcerer since you get a boost to Charisma and Intelligence.

What is it you want to do with this character exactly?

Also, depending on what the white dragon is trying to do I'd ask him to reconsider. A -4 to intelligence and charisma may not be worth the one less hit die.

You could also try and convince your DM to allow homebrew. These classes are made to be much more playable than the normal dragons.

Seems like a fairly bad abuse of the rules, and it sounds like it isn't what the DM intended at all.

The homebrew as well as the Kobold will not be allowed.
I considered Wizard, but the Dragon itself has Cleric casting and that will stack with my own cleric casting and given the little information we had from the DM, we should eventually get there.

What i want with the char, i am not sure. I want to see what my options are.

Mystic Muse
2011-01-20, 05:21 AM
The homebrew as well as the Kobold will not be allowed.
I considered Wizard, but the Dragon itself has Cleric casting and that will stack with my own cleric casting and given the little information we had from the DM, we should eventually get there.


You don't get any casting until the young age category as far as I can tell, and that's a little out of your range.

Coidzor
2011-01-20, 05:29 AM
You have to be a True Dragon? Not something like an Ambush Drake?

I think a Steel Dragon(ed2:Dragons of Faerun? thanks Kyuubi) might be of interest to you, those were mentioned as having good stats to HD to LA value for the younger forms. (ed2: since you're thinking melee, IIRC, fangs are another possible contestant there)

Edit: Totemist 1-2 would be of use to you if you're looking to fill the melee role. Since you're already going with natural weapons anyway, might as well take it up a notch.

A possibility as well, from Lords of Madness, is getting a Mouthpick weapon (+1 property) from the Beholder section, though it would preclude the use of your breath weapon while you were wielding it in place of your bite attack (and since it gives auto-proficiency, you can have it be an exotic weapon that's better than your bite attack in some or multiple ways)

Mystic Muse
2011-01-20, 05:33 AM
According to wikipedia, sounds like Steel are in the book Dragons of Faerun.

Coidzor
2011-01-20, 06:02 AM
Surprisingly, I've seen this topic come up before but could only find this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8609.00) on Brilliant Gameologists about a steel dragon gish using sovereign archetypes.

Though it does raise the question, LA buy-off or no?

Greenish
2011-01-20, 10:14 AM
Surprisingly, I've seen this topic come up before but could only find this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8609.00) on Brilliant Gameologists about a steel dragon gish using sovereign archetypes.Well, there's also this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3070.0).

Coidzor
2011-01-20, 10:33 AM
Well, there's also this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3070.0).

Thank you. I actually tried to find that one and had my searching faculties completely fail me. x.x

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-20, 10:38 AM
I'm starting into one of these myself, except we are starting at EC 18, and can't take class levels until we hit Young Adult HD.

Honestly, there aren't really any classes better than Dragon HD except for spellcasting ones, which is a high cost to pay for power (d4 instead of d12 HD for arcane, d8HD for divine, lose two good saves, lose 6+int skills, and starting at a low spellcaster level for your ECL...)

Gnaritas
2011-01-20, 10:50 AM
Class abilities are worth a lot, consider a ECL 18, 12 Racial HD that takes a level of Warblade, it can take level 4 maneuvers from the get go. Who cares that it loses 2 skillpoints and a bit of saves.

LA cannot be bought off in our games.

Heliomance
2011-01-20, 10:50 AM
I was iin an amazing dragons game, adapted from the 2nd ed Council of Wyrms. We were essentially gestalt, dragon HD on one side, classes on the other.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-20, 10:51 AM
I second (or third, or whatever) steel wyrmling, they are the best dragons for these kind of games, and with the Loredrake sovereign archetype you can functions as a pretty good gish, and best of all you only lose 1 HP on average (I think). Continue advancing with classes such as Abjurant Champion or which ever is your favourite gish prestige class.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 09:34 AM
Come to think of it... You might be able to enter Master of Many Forms or Warshaper almost straight away.

This has gotten me thinking about trying out a Steel Wyrmling myself for an ECL 9 game, actually.

So, what are you thinking now, OP?

Edit: Some useful medium/small humanoid and animal forms (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528526/updated_Master_of_Many_Forms_Bible__official_wild_ shape_rules&post_num=2#331922218)from the Master of Many Forms bible.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 11:32 AM
Urgh, Dragons have a horrible amount of HD and LA.

Warshaper needs more than alternate form though, so no go there.

EDIT: Wyrmling also is bad for melee. Usually very small. Those that aren't have very high ECL.

Might as well go for fast + strafing Breath weapon

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 11:40 AM
Warshaper needs more than alternate form though, so no go there.

So polymorph is fine but the equivalent of an SLA of it isn't, interesting. Ah well, so much for thinking outside of the box.


Urgh, Dragons have a horrible amount of HD and LA.

Well a Steel Dragon with Loredrake makes it like they're a sorcerer-based 4th level Eldritch Knight with 2 LA. So it's not too horrible. Or give all that much beyond the alternate form.

Heliomance
2011-01-22, 11:40 AM
If everyone's a dragon, then the LA is somewhat irrelevant.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 11:46 AM
So polymorph is fine but the equivalent of an SLA of it isn't, interesting. Ah well, so much for thinking outside of the box.



Well a Steel Dragon with Loredrake makes it like they're a sorcerer-based 4th level Eldritch Knight with 2 LA. So it's not too horrible. Or give all that much beyond the alternate form.

Actually... Alternate form is not really a SLA equivalent of Polymorph. Alternate form is usually limited to a less forms than Polymorph. If you do have a SLA of Polymorph, you qualify for Warshaper.

I'm not familiar with Steel Dragon, so I can't say.

As for irrelevant LA... it does have a small effect from challenges (as they don't have the LA)

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 12:00 PM
You want to be a steel dragon. You really want to be a steel dragon.
ECL 6 for wyrmling, with 4 dragon hit dice, sorcerer 1 casting, alternate form for any humanoid and anymal form and a good flying speed.
With 6 levels to play with, just take whatever full BAB class 1/Abjurant Champion 5. Take Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species and spend your day fighting as a legendary ape (Str 30!).
For bonus points, call yourself the Dragon Monkey King.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 12:04 PM
... Steel Dragons seems powerful... None of the others are even near it in power.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 12:15 PM
... Steel Dragons seems powerful... None of the others are even near it in power.Well, Mist and Mercury aren't so bad, either.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 12:15 PM
... Steel Dragons seems powerful... None of the others are even near it in power.
Mercury dragons are pretty good with their hit-and-run tactics as well. They have a ridiculously high fly speed as wyrmlings and are around the same ECL as mercury dragons. Get high initiative, Improved Flight, Flyby Attack and make the sky your bitch! Bonus points if you are a Warlock, a Dragonfire Adept or if you focus on your Sorcerer side and breath spells. Oooh yeah. Call yourself Blitzkrieg and go to town humming 'hey go let's go' as you devastate everything with the unholy fire of awesomeness.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 12:17 PM
Get high initiative, Improved Flight, Flyby Attack I don't think you can improve maneuverability from perfect.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 12:19 PM
I don't think you can improve maneuverability from perfect.
I could swear they started with good maneuverability.
Well, even better then.

Gnaritas
2011-01-22, 02:07 PM
It could be that the Dragons from Dragons of Faerun are not allowed.

In that case the Steel Dragon is out. I have the following alternatives:

1. Pyroclastic Dragon Wyrmling Barbarian 1: focused on his Disintegrating Breath. With Heighten Breath, Ability Focus and Barbarian and a base CON of 22 the DC will be 28 (32 when raging). Plus i will be medium now and large after 3 RHD which will make me a bit of a decent melee-er.
2. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warlock 3 Swordsage 2: with Darkness, Devil's Sight and Assassin's Stance i can make 2d6 ranged touch attacks with 2d6 sneak attack.
3. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warblade 1 Sorcerer 1 Abjurant Champion 3:
Using the regular Wraithstrike + Power Attack i am still doing a measly 1d4+9 with a (touch) bite attack. But with a full attack this does get better.

Czin
2011-01-22, 02:13 PM
It could be that the Dragons from Dragons of Faerun are not allowed.

In that case the Steel Dragon is out. I have the following alternatives:

1. Pyroclastic Dragon Wyrmling Barbarian 1: focused on his Disintegrating Breath. With Heighten Breath, Ability Focus and Barbarian and a base CON of 22 the DC will be 28 (32 when raging). Plus i will be medium now and large after 3 RHD which will make me a bit of a decent melee-er.
2. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warlock 3 Swordsage 2: with Darkness, Devil's Sight and Assassin's Stance i can make 2d6 ranged touch attacks with 2d6 sneak attack.
3. Shadow Dragon Wyrmling Warblade 1 Sorcerer 1 Abjurant Champion 3:
Using the regular Wraithstrike + Power Attack i am still doing a measly 1d4+9 with a (touch) bite attack. But with a full attack this does get better.
Shadow Dragons give me nightmares....

...So much...level drain....the horror...the horror!

Spam level draining attacks with your shadow dragons like there is no tomorrow, doing anything else doesn't do the dragon type justice.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 02:22 PM
Spam level draining attacks with your shadow dragons like there is no tomorrow, doing anything else doesn't do the dragon type justice.
Yes. Yes!
Spam like there is no tomorrow, because there is no tomorrow... for them!

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 02:28 PM
Shall we start fearing the Wight-apocalypse?

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 02:31 PM
Shall we start fearing the Wight-apocalypse?

You can't become a wight if you get et. :smallamused: Saves on food bills, which with a dragon might actually be an inconvenience.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-22, 02:48 PM
Shadow Dragons give me nightmares....

...So much...level drain....the horror...the horror!

Spam level draining attacks with your shadow dragons like there is no tomorrow, doing anything else doesn't do the dragon type justice.

You do realize that Shadow wyrmling breath grants only 1 negative level. And Reflex Save is 1/2 (it says 1/2 of 1 is 0).

Ethereal Dragon is only 4 HD/2La, Force Breath. No one has immunity to it.
Battle dragon is 5 HD/2 la, sonic breath or fear breath (4d6 round shaken).

Czin
2011-01-22, 02:49 PM
You do realize that Shadow wyrmling breath grants only 1 negative level. And Reflex Save is 1/2 (it says 1/2 of 1 is 0).

Ethereal Dragon is only 4 HD/2La, Force Breath. No one has immunity to it.
Battle dragon is 5 HD/2 la, sonic breath or fear breath (4d6 round shaken).

But can they start the wight-apocalypse with their breath weapons like the Shadow dragon can? No? Then be quiet. :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 06:05 PM
Of the metabreath feats, what are your favorites/worthwhile ones? Or are these a distraction for actual dragon PCs as opposed to DFAs?

edit: now to figure out what the heck I was thinking of...

Starbuck_II
2011-01-22, 06:39 PM
Of the metabreath feats, what are your favorites/worthwhile ones? Or are these a distraction for actual dragon PCs as opposed to DFAs?

How do DFAs use Metabreaths, they don't a D4 dely they breath at will?
Entangling Exhaustation doesn't rely on dely dice so that works on DFAs.

Heliomance
2011-01-22, 07:11 PM
Dragon Shamans use Metabreath feats.

JaronK
2011-01-22, 07:53 PM
If you want, here's a few absuses that fix your LA problems.

1) As per Races of the Dragon, a Dragon "automatically qualifies" for any feat, PrC, ACF, or pretty much anything else that includes as a prerequisite being Dragonblooded. This means you ignore all other prerequisites for anything that requires Dragonblooded... and you can get some SERIOUS boosts that way. If you take just one level of Sorcerer, you can sub it out for the level 7 Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution, which still gives the same casting (because ACFs that advance casting always advance it "as though you'd gained a level in the class") but you get 3 BAB and some very nice saves, because saves and BAB are a lookup table. Note that if you take any more levels of Sorcerer, your BAB would be reset to the lower value, because you always look at the last level you took of the class to know your BAB. You can pull the same trick with Dragonblood Cleric, getting 6 BAB from a single level. This can help you catch up greatly in BAB and thus qualify for nice PrCs much earlier. Taking both classes in two levels grants 9BAB, which should be enough to get you into some otherwise very high level PrCs (Dragon Ascendant, perhaps?), or at least catch you up nicely.

2) Dragons of Eberron has Sovereign Archetypes, which were designed to help with this very problem. Wyrm of War is amazing for any martial type (5 bonus feats over 20 levels, full martial weapon and heavy armor proficiency, all at the cost of any access to Cleric spells you might have had in your native casting). Loredrake is great if you were going to be a Sorcerer anyway. There's some other nice ones too.

3) There are some other nice dragons out there, like Wyrmling Mercury Dragons with their huge movement speed. Steel Dragons are pretty cool too, IIRC.

JaronK

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-22, 08:22 PM
you can sub it out for the level 7 Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution, which still gives the same casting (because ACFs that advance casting always advance it "as though you'd gained a level in the class") but you get 3 BAB and some very nice saves, because saves and BAB are a lookup table.

I seriously doubt that works that way by RAW, but it certainly isn't going to fly with any DM that doesn't also allow Pun Pun, bucket healing, and acting while dead.

JaronK
2011-01-22, 08:28 PM
I seriously doubt that works that way by RAW, but it certainly isn't going to fly with any DM that doesn't also allow Pun Pun, bucket healing, and acting while dead.

It does work that way by RAW, see page 4 of Races of the Dragon. Note that the rule that makes this work is in the same book that gives those ACFs. In fact, the only things that rule applies to are those ACFs and one feat (Improved Dragon Wings). It even says "racial substitution levels" are one of the examples. There might be something hidden somewhere that I've yet to find.

It seems that rule (along with Sovereign Archetypes) was specifically made to boost True Dragons, who are otherwise too weak in general. Given that fact, it's hardly the same as Pun Pun... it brings you up to normal levels, but isn't going to overpower you. On a Kobold obviously it's a whole other deal, but that's true of a lot of things. In an all dragon game, it might be too much of course, but in general it's just a balancing thing.

The specific rule, by the way, is "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

JaronK

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 08:32 PM
In fact, the only things that rule applies to are those ACFs and one feat (Improved Dragon Wings).

Huh? That seems off somehow. Surely there's more than two substitution levels and a single feat that require the dragonblood subtype... Something that would be useful for something other than setting BAB > HD...

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-22, 10:41 PM
but you get 3 BAB and some very nice saves, because saves and BAB are a lookup table.

This is the part I take issue with. 1 level never equals +3 BAB and + (whatever level 7 saves are for that).

You'd get +1 BAB if that is a level that advances BAB, and +1 to saves that advance at that level for that class. Not + (whatever is on the chart for a 7th level sorcerer).

Anything else is exploiting a loophole at best, and more likely just plain not getting it right in the first place.

I'm not questioning that they qualify for the substitution level, just the way you are misreading and/or abusing the way substitution levels work.

Waker
2011-01-22, 10:54 PM
but you get 3 BAB and some very nice saves, because saves and BAB are a lookup table.
While you are correct in assuming that dragons are allowed access to racial substitution levels, you don't get to just pick which level you want. You still have to progress the class to those levels in order to gain the benefit of the substitution levels. True, "A dragon does know and cast spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in it's variety description..." according to the MM, but it doesn't say that they actually have levels in sorcerer.

RandomLunatic
2011-01-23, 01:03 AM
It does work that way by RAW, see page 4 of Races of the Dragon. Note that the rule that makes this work is in the same book that gives those ACFs. In fact, the only things that rule applies to are those ACFs and one feat (Improved Dragon Wings). It even says "racial substitution levels" are one of the examples. There might be something hidden somewhere that I've yet to find.

It seems that rule (along with Sovereign Archetypes) was specifically made to boost True Dragons, who are otherwise too weak in general. Given that fact, it's hardly the same as Pun Pun... it brings you up to normal levels, but isn't going to overpower you. On a Kobold obviously it's a whole other deal, but that's true of a lot of things. In an all dragon game, it might be too much of course, but in general it's just a balancing thing.

The specific rule, by the way, is "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

JaronK

They may "qualify for" them, but you would still actually have to be able to take the xth level of the class in question. Just because my human qualifies for Fighter does not mean I can, at first level, just take the 20th level of fighter for a bonus feat, +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB, and base saves of +12/+6/+6. That would just be silly.

tyckspoon
2011-01-23, 01:48 AM
Of the metabreath feats, what are your favorites/worthwhile ones? Or are these a distraction for actual dragon PCs as opposed to DFAs?


Nah, they're pretty awesome for true dragons too. I'm fond of Heighten+Clinging+Maximize/Quicken, depending on how obnoxious you want to be- that gets you a crazy high DC (your dragon is buffed with/wearing the highest-value +Con item it can get, isn't it?) that does good damage for another 10+ rounds, either reliably high damage if you went for Maximize or completely as a free action if you went with Quicken- it doesn't appear that they ever reprinted/updated this one to a Swift action like the other Quicken mechanics, so this is a potent source of action economy for a dragon. If you have enough effective sorcerer levels, you can combine that alpha-strike breath with mass debuffing by using the breath-effect spells- Blinding Breath and Dispelling Breath are quite nasty, especially Blinding Breath added to a fully-Heightened breath. Sure, you won't be breathing again for a couple of minutes, but why would you need to?

JaronK
2011-01-23, 04:33 AM
Huh? That seems off somehow. Surely there's more than two substitution levels and a single feat that require the dragonblood subtype... Something that would be useful for something other than setting BAB > HD...

Feel free to find something. I've yet to do so. There's a few spells that give you +1 caster level if you're Dragon Blooded, and one that you can cast faster if you're Dragonblooded... but neither of those are prerequisites. The thing is, the Dragonblood type only exists in a few books (Races of the Dragon being one of those few). I think there might be an Incarnum thing somewhere, but I haven't found it.

Normally, you couldn't just take the 20th level of Fighter because you only qualify to take that if you already have 19 levels of Fighter. Here, you can get around that. The result is your BAB catching up with your level rather nicely.

And yes, it's a TO trick. When used in this situation, it's not too bad. When used with a Dragonwrought Kobold, it's rather ridiculous of course, and certainly shouldn't be allowed.

JaronK

Ravens_cry
2011-01-23, 05:24 AM
A case where INCREASING your level in a class will DECREASE your BAB is the rankest Limburger, overpowered or not. As they say, it is the principle of the thing.

JaronK
2011-01-23, 05:50 AM
One could say the same about the Blighter (increasing your level decreases your spellcasting) or the Warhulk (increasing a level decreases your skills) or the Ur Priest (if you had Cleric levels, increasing your level decreases your spells there too).

I did say it's a TO trick. It certainly is cheesy.

JaronK

true_shinken
2011-01-23, 12:17 PM
Feel free to find something. I've yet to do so.
This is not a TO trick. This is purposefully misreading the rules. That paragraph means 'dragon stands for dragonblood subtype for requirements'. It's a very clean and obvious reading. Blatantly twisting words for squeezing cheese out of it is down there with bucket healing.

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 12:48 PM
Found something. Dragon Tail [ed: Feat, page 98] from Races of the Dragon. If you're not going to become a large-sized dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm), this is a way to add a tail slap natural weapon. Giving Small dragons 4 natural weapons and Medium dragons 6 natural weapons. A level or two of Totemist for girallon arms and that's 8 and 10 respectively...

Practical and Accelerate Metamagic look like they could be grabbed as well if one pumps casting with loredrake and has a particular metamagic that's favored, if Dragon qualifies for everything but having the base metamagic feat to apply it to due to that dragonblood subtype clause.

What do you guys think of Exhaled Barrier from Races of the Dragon? Useful or too limited in where it can cover?

2xMachina
2011-01-23, 01:42 PM
Mind you, Girallon Claws overlap with your own claws.

Personally, I like Entangling Exhalation.

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 02:04 PM
Mind you, Girallon Claws overlap with your own claws.

Huh. :smallconfused: Thought it added 4 quasi-real clawed arms. Whoops.


Personally, I like Entangling Exhalation.

Definitely is looking like it's one of the best options for early feats for a low HD/LA dragon.

Gnaritas
2011-01-23, 05:04 PM
Found something. Dragon Tail from Races of the Dragon. If you're not going to become a large-sized dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm), this is a way to add a tail slap natural weapon. Giving Small dragons 4 natural weapons and Medium dragons 6 natural weapons. A level or two of Totemist for girallon arms and that's 8 and 10 respectively...

Practical and Accelerate Metamagic look like they could be grabbed as well if one pumps casting with loredrake and has a particular metamagic that's favored, if Dragon qualifies for everything but having the base metamagic feat to apply it to due to that dragonblood subtype clause.

What do you guys think of Exhaled Barrier from Races of the Dragon? Useful or too limited in where it can cover?

Do you mean Ghostly Tail? i found that one, but it's only for AoO....

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 05:19 PM
Do you mean Ghostly Tail? i found that one, but it's only for AoO....

Well, I found it via a search for feats that have dragonblood as a flag on realmshelps. Calls it Dragon Tail and says it's from Races of the Dragon. Didn't give a page number though, sadly, but another search for "dragon tail feat," yielded a first result that says it's on page 98.

Additionally, this would allow for one to take the prehensile tail feat (savage species / serpent kingdoms?) and wield a weapon using one's tail, though it has TWF as a pre-requisite making it not all that worth it as is. I'd argue that since one already had to pay a feat for Dragon Tail though, that the feat tax has already been taken care of, especially since there's no way for most dragons to take advantage of TWF in their dragon form anyway without houseruling that being able to use claws for somatic gestures extends to using a dragon's clawed forelimbs to wield weapons.

Gnaritas
2011-01-23, 05:26 PM
Well, I found it via a search for feats that have dragonblood as a flag on realmshelps. Calls it Dragon Tail and says it's from Races of the Dragon. Didn't give a page number though, sadly, but another search for "dragon tail feat," yielded a first result that says it's on page 98.

Additionally, this would allow for one to take the prehensile tail feat and wield a weapon using one's tail, though it has TWF as a pre-requisite making it not all that worth it as is. I'd argue that since one already had to pay a feat for Dragon Tail though, that the feat tax has already been taken care of, especially since there's no way for most dragons to take advantage of TWF in their dragon form anyway without houseruling that being able to use claws for somatic gestures extends to using a dragon's clawed forelimbs to wield weapons.

Ah right, a feat, got it, this is one to consider in certain builds, thanks.