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ffone
2011-01-20, 02:01 PM
We have a 'daring outlaw' character (rogue-4 swashbuckler-X with a feat that stacks the class levels for sneak attack, and the swashbuckler's modest dodge / reflex save bonuses; the main point of this build is full sneak attack with 19 BAB over 20 levels) which may soon enter epic levels.

Picking are much slimmer for epic feats (especially if you aren't a traditional single-class character - most epic feats have elaborate prerequisites closely mirrored to a certain archetype). I am seeking advice on taking this build epic, and on feats.

Current feats are Craven, Daring Outlaw, Darkstalker (hide from tremor/blindsense/sight etc.), Improved Critical (kukri), Sacred Strike (more sneak attack dmg vs evil), Staggering Strike (stagger on sneak attacks), Telling Blow (crits are sneak attacks), TWF and ITWF, Weapon Finesse. Some retraining is allowed if anyone has pre-epic alternate suggestions. The character has the Penetrating Strike ACF and some move + full attack items (like belt of battle and quicksilver boots).

Dilemmas going forward are both class after 4+16 and epic feats. There is no official Swashbuckler epic progression (although using Epic Duelist and substituting its precise strike progression for the dodge progression might be allowed). So the class choice after 4+16 is basically

1. ask about a homebrew progressions
2. go back to Rogue (after 20th level, the rogue's lower BAB is irrelevant)
3. find some other (prestige) class, preferably one that advances sneak attack.

- Swashbuckler-19 has an attractive class feature (WOonding Crit; deal 2 Con damage on a crit; and this is a 15-20 threat range character). Swash-20 for a Daring Outlaw is a dead level (only gives the 'stacked' dodge/grace features).

- Swashbuckler-17 gets 'slippery mind', useful for a character with a lowish will save. This class feature is also the prereq for 'Dextrous Will', an epic feat for substituting your Reflex save mod for your Will mod (for this character, this is about a +15 boost).

- It would take 6 more rogue levels to start getting RSAs (rogue special abilities) every three levels; the rogue-themed epic feats mostly have one as a prereq.

- Trap Sense (make passive search checks for traps, like an elf with doors) requires 25 Search and Spot ranks, which the character could have after 3 more rogue levels, so potentially for the level 24 feat if she resumed Rogue after Swash-17 (foregoing WOunding Crit). Is there some spell or item to get this effect? It smells like the sort of thing magic can probably do better somehow.

- Lingering Damage (sneak attack damage is 'repeated' the round after the attack, if the target still lives) seems the most attractive (almost effectively doubles sneak attack damage). It requires the Crippling Strike RSA, so getting at L24 would require resuming rogue after Swash-16 (which would cost a point of BAB as well as qualifying for Dextrous Will at 21).

- Sneak Attack of Opportunity (attacks of opportunity are sneak attacks) requires opportunist (another rogue ACF), so it's in a similar boat to Lingering Damage.

- Self-Concealment (10% miss chance, stacks additively up to 5 times) requires improved evasion.

- Epic Dodge (auto-negate one hit from Dodge buddy each round) requires defensive roll, improved evasion, and Dodge.

So possible paths are:

Rogue-4 Swash-14 Rogue-6 Swash-5: get Trap Sense at 21 and Lingering Damage at 24, probably then back to swash for slippery mind + Dextrous Will at 27 and Wounding Crit at 29. Main downsides are losing a point of BAB and getting the attractive Dextrous Will and Wounding Crit late. Main upside is getting the attractive Lingering Damage earlier.

Rogue-4 Swash-17 Rogue-6 Swash-2: get slippery-mind + Dextrous Will at 21, Trap Sense at 24, Lingering Damage at 27 and Wounding Crit at 29 again. Delays Lingering Damage three levels but better BAB and good Will defenses earlier. Wounding Crit late again.

Rogue-4 Swash-19 Rogue-6: get slippery-mind + Dextrous Will at 21, Wounding Crit at 23. Wouldn't know what epic feat to take at 24; probably other epic feats are delayed three levels vs second build (Trap Sense at 27, Lingering Damage at 30).

Cieyrin
2011-01-20, 03:34 PM
Actually, once you hit BAB 16, when you get your 4th attack, I don't find the other 3 points of BAB that necessary, especially once you get into epic. If you're after the Rogue special abilities, I'd switch back to Rogue at the BAB 16 mark and look into Savvy Rogue (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Savvy_Rogue) for buffing those abilities alongside the epic feats, especially Opportunist with Savvy Rogue and Sneak Attack of Opportunity.

I'd do something along the lines of Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 13/Rogue till you get the Special Abilities you want and then maybe back to Swash for ability damage crits, though you'll come up with the issue of dealing with ability damage immune enemies at those levels making it rather moot.

As for the epic PRCs, they're not so good, really, so you may want to go after Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) into perhaps Unseen Seer so you're not left behind in the magic death match that Epic really starts to become.

ffone
2011-01-20, 04:59 PM
Actually, once you hit BAB 16, when you get your 4th attack, I don't find the other 3 points of BAB that necessary, especially once you get into epic. If you're after the Rogue special abilities, I'd switch back to Rogue at the BAB 16 mark and look into Savvy Rogue (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Savvy_Rogue) for buffing those abilities alongside the epic feats, especially Opportunist with Savvy Rogue and Sneak Attack of Opportunity.

I'd do something along the lines of Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 13/Rogue till you get the Special Abilities you want and then maybe back to Swash for ability damage crits, though you'll come up with the issue of dealing with ability damage immune enemies at those levels making it rather moot.

As for the epic PRCs, they're not so good, really, so you may want to go after Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) into perhaps Unseen Seer so you're not left behind in the magic death match that Epic really starts to become.

Thanks for the Avenger reference, I didn't know about it. The character is nonchaotic and nonevil (LG in fact) so the Avenger, which AFAICT is Assassin except nonchaotic instead of evil, is a nice one (esp. if I am allowed to expand their spell list with the non-core Assassin spells such as Sniper's Shot).

Unseen Seer might also be attractive after a level of wizard. Taking a bunch of non-BAB levels after 20th is fine, and even a very low Wizard casting level
can be useful (since there are nice buff spells with low spell level and irrelevant caster level, like Sniper's Shot, Wraithstrike, and well pretty much any swift-action spell).

What's the importance of BAB 16 by 20th? Is it that epic attack bonus doesn't grant iteratives, so if you don't reach 16 by 20, you can never get that fourth attack?

Good point about ability damage immunity becoming more common (inc. among non-undead/construct things like the Tarrasque). Also thanks for the Savvy Rogue reference.

Bakkan
2011-01-20, 07:50 PM
What's the importance of BAB 16 by 20th? Is it that epic attack bonus doesn't grant iteratives, so if you don't reach 16 by 20, you can never get that fourth attack?

Yes, that is correct. The epic attack bonus never grants more iterative attacks, so if you don't have 4 attacks by level 20, you never will.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 08:05 PM
Cieyrin's point about Rogue special abilities and Savvy Rogue feat is a good one.

The Avenger is actually an April Fool's joke. If you're thinking seriously about pursuing the class I recommend telling your DM that lest they find out some other way and take it out on you. :smallyuk:

What you really, desperately need is a good form of Hide in Plain Sight. Assassin or Avenger gets this at level 7, by which time (class level 27) I'd expect your character to be long dead. HiPS is something you need, mostly so you can Hide all the time and avoid being targeted by spells, somewhere about level 10.

elonin
2011-01-20, 08:37 PM
I'll recomend at least one level of shadow dancer which grants hips all by itself. The feat requirements are steep but may be worth it to get hips earlier.

sombrastewart
2011-01-20, 08:49 PM
I always recommend the Dark template over taking Shadowdancer. It's LA +1, but you get HiPS and bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, a little cold resistance and an increased base speed.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 08:54 PM
I always recommend the Dark template over taking Shadowdancer. It's LA +1, but you get HiPS and bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, a little cold resistance and an increased base speed.
However, it's not even half of what you need. The regular Dark Creature template Hide in Plain Sight is Extraordinary and only removes the "not being observed" requirement to Hide. The Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight of Assassins and Shadowdancers also lets you Hide when there's nothing to hide behind (i.e., no cover/concealment). Dark Creature HiPS also fails entirely when there's bright light.

Huge difference.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-20, 09:01 PM
Curmudgeon: IIRC there is an "updated" Dark template in one of the Forgotten Realms books (I think it is Cormyr tearing of the way); which is functionally identical to ToM except it gratns (Su) Hide in plain sight.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 09:04 PM
Curmudgeon: IIRC there is an "updated" Dark template in one of the Forgotten Realms books (I think it is Cormyr tearing of the way); which is functionally identical to ToM except it gratns (Su) Hide in plain sight.
Yes, I'm aware there is a FR-only version; that's why I referred to the "regular Dark Creature template". In any other setting that's the only version that's available.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-20, 09:06 PM
Didn't notice the regular part; my bad.

Draz74
2011-01-20, 09:08 PM
Is there a reason you can't start into a third base class? Because Tome of Battle is about the closest thing an epic swashbuckler type can find to an epic progression of their class. I'm guessing no ToB allowed, though, or you probably would have mentioned it somewhere.


However, it's not even half of what you need. The regular Dark Creature template Hide in Plain Sight is Extraordinary and only removes the "not being observed" requirement to Hide. The Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight of Assassins and Shadowdancers also lets you Hide when there's nothing to hide behind (i.e., no cover/concealment). Dark Creature HiPS also fails entirely when there's bright light.

Huge difference.

However, if you care about it, it's not too hard to get constant concealment and constant non-bright-light effects just via equipment. In combination, the Dark template can be pretty adequate.

Greater Blurring Armor (MIC) and a Dark Lantern (ToM), for example.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 09:24 PM
However, if you care about it, it's not too hard to get constant concealment and constant non-bright-light effects just via equipment. In combination, the Dark template can be pretty adequate.

Greater Blurring Armor (MIC) and a Dark Lantern (ToM), for example.
I'm not sure "adequate" is the term I'd use. Your nearby presence will be immediately broadcast by the 60' radius of magical shadowy illumination you carry around. Then a Daylight spell, or Acid Fog with Widen Spell applied, will make things rather uncomfortable.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-20, 09:28 PM
Combat reflexes and Sneak attack of opportunity.:smallwink:

Draz74
2011-01-20, 09:29 PM
I'm not sure "adequate" is the term I'd use. Your nearby presence will be immediately broadcast by the 60' radius of magical shadowy illumination you carry around. Then a Daylight spell, or Acid Fog with Widen Spell applied, will make things rather uncomfortable.

So don't carry the Dark Lantern with you. Leave it 30' from the intended battlefield. Widened Acid Fog still will be tough, but ... that's a Level 9 spell slot. It's going to be a big resource expenditure for the caster, and we're starting to get into "casters beat noncasters. period." territory. And it would still be a problem for someone with the [Su] Hide in Plain Sight too.

Also, I forget what book they're from, but I've heard of a cheap expendable (alchemical?) item called Night's Extract that's supposed to be pretty amazing for the anti-bright-light requirement.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-20, 09:35 PM
Widened Acid Fog still will be tough, but ... that's a Level 9 spell slot. ... And it would still be a problem for someone with the [Su] Hide in Plain Sight too.
The big difference is that the presence of the magical shadowy illumination is what gets the spellcaster to dump Acid Fog in the area. Supernatural HiPS doesn't give the spellcaster a clue.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-20, 11:47 PM
For 22,000 gp you can get a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic which grants the Dark Creature template, which grants Hide in Plain Sight, +10 ft. movement, considerable bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, and some other benefits. Definitely worth getting for this type of character.

A Rogue 16/ Swashbuckler 4 gets +16 BAB, but your HP is considerably lower although you get much better skills and those nice Rogue special abilities. If you go Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) you can get the Ranger version of Hide in Plain Sight, which is actually quite good.

I'm a big fan of the Martial Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant, which gets fighter bonus feats at 1st and every even-numbered level instead of sneak attack. Sneak attack is extremely unreliable especially in the higher and epic levels, and bonus feats allow for greater customization and combat tricks besides just dealing damage. If you want to go the route of extreme cheese, you could get Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to qualify for Daring Outlaw, and still get the full sneak attack progression out of the build in addition to all the bonus feats. In this case you would be much better off going Martial (Wilderness) Rogue 16/ Swashbuckler 4 since it would grant 10d6 sneak attack and nine fighter bonus feats, plus those rogue special abilities.

Yet another option if you insist on using sneak attack would be to go Psychic Rogue (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 4/ Swashbuckler 6/ Psychic Assassin (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 10, which will still get 9d6 sneak attack at 20th, but you would need to spend a feat on Practiced Manifester. That gets a +16 BAB at level 20, and every sneak attack you make deals 2 points of Int damage with Mind Cripple, and you would have Hide in Plain Sight. You would have 3rd level Psychic Rogue powers as well, which I'd pick Hustle along with lower level utility powers. It would be reasonable to remove the 'evil' prerequisite of assassin-type classes by also removing the death attack class feature, which isn't very useful anyway. Psychic Rogue can also take Mind Cripple if you want to invest 11 levels in it, but you would lose a lot of sneak attack dice. You could instead go for something like Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 10/ Psion 1/ Psychic Assassin 5. You can spend the Psion 1 bonus feat on Practiced Manifester to qualify, and it still gets +16 BAB, but no Hide in Plain Sight and only 2nd level powers, but that's an option if it's too late to switch your Rogue levels to Psychic Rogue.

ffone
2011-01-21, 03:58 AM
Cieyrin's point about Rogue special abilities and Savvy Rogue feat is a good one.

The Avenger is actually an April Fool's joke. If you're thinking seriously about pursuing the class I recommend telling your DM that lest they find out some other way and take it out on you. :smallyuk:

I feel silly now...I *did* think it was a little silly that they just palette-swapped the Assassin, but, since WotC is in the business of churning out as much stuff as possible I didn't put it past them.



What you really, desperately need is a good form of Hide in Plain Sight. Assassin or Avenger gets this at level 7, by which time (class level 27) I'd expect your character to be long dead. HiPS is something you need, mostly so you can Hide all the time and avoid being targeted by spells, somewhere about level 10.

Thanks for highlighting the importance of HiPS. And the Assassin's does seem like the best version (takes care of both requirements, and Ex so it works in AMF). My thoughts:

- I hadn't been to intent on HiPS b/c hiding still requires moving, which (usually) precludes getting full attacks. Even with swift movement / pounce, you're unhidden after the first attack, and typically you need to move before the attack rather than after (always with pounce, and usually with swift movement, to get into (flanking) position), in which case you'd be un-hidden when the enemies' turns come up for casting spells. Is the idea that I should get a Spring Attack like ability too? Or using ranged sneak attacks and then moving to hide after?

- If I hide all the time, allies will just get targeted instead. I kinda figured with Evasion and Dextrous Will it might be worth taking spells for the team....

Thanks for bringing up HiPS though. Since it seems to be popular, I figure there must be a way to do the move-after-full-attack (so you're untargetable between your turns) I've overlooked.

If the Cormyr:TotW dark template version is as good as assassin/shadowdancer, that's a possibility (this is Faerun).


Is there a reason you can't start into a third base class? Because Tome of Battle is about the closest thing an epic swashbuckler type can find to an epic progression of their class. I'm guessing no ToB allowed, though, or you probably would have mentioned it somewhere.


Yeah, no ToB....but what's the skinny on ToB sneak attacking? I recall something about Assassin's Stance for +2d6, some feat to get Dex-to-damage with certain weapons while in it, and some low level manuever to swift-action-summon little flanking buddies (Distracting Embers) so you can pretty much always get sneak attack (and the swashbuckler's +4 flanking attack bonus)?



Greater Blurring Armor (MIC) and a Dark Lantern (ToM), for example.

If Blur satisfies the concealment part of the Hide requirement, that's quite attractive. I've heard miss chance is better than AC for high level defenses anyway?



I'm a big fan of the Martial Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant, which gets fighter bonus feats at 1st and every even-numbered level instead of sneak attack. Sneak attack is extremely unreliable especially in the higher and epic levels, and bonus feats allow for greater customization and combat tricks besides just dealing damage. If you want to go the route of extreme cheese, you could get Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to qualify for Daring Outlaw, and still get the full sneak attack progression out of the build in addition to all the bonus feats. In this case you would be much better off going Martial (Wilderness) Rogue 16/ Swashbuckler 4 since it would grant 10d6 sneak attack and nine fighter bonus feats, plus those rogue special abilities.

Hmm, so you're saying that the Martial rogue ACF combined with Daring Outlaw would give you 'back' the sneak attack and you'd double up? Can you provide more detail or insight on the RAW (since I can see my DM saying 'the rogue and swash levels stack for sneak attack, and since these rogue and swash levels have no sneak attack to stack, that half of the feat is negated in this case')?

Thanks for the note on Wilderness Rogue. Seems like a no-brainer since I wasn't using any of the 'removed' skills, and you get new skills + new class features (but don't lose any class features).



Combat reflexes and Sneak attack of opportunity.:smallwink:

Combat Reflexes + opportunist + Savvy Rogue + sneak attack of opportunity does seem very tempting....so would that let me sneak attack a foe every time an ally hits it, up to 1 + Dex mod times a round? (And since a rogue wants to be in a flanking position anyway, hopefully I'd be threatening the foe the ally is hitting.)

Hmm, was there an item that granted Combat Reflexes? I'm getting a deja vu there is...

Curmudgeon
2011-01-21, 04:51 AM
Thanks for highlighting the importance of HiPS. And the Assassin's does seem like the best version (takes care of both requirements, and Ex so it works in AMF).
You might want to re-read that:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
I only know of one Extraordinary version of Hide in Plain Sight that works the same way, and that's tough to acquire: Eye of Lolth (Drow of the Underdark, page 80) @ level 6.

ffone
2011-01-21, 04:59 AM
Oops, thanks. Still the best overall.

I see that the Cormyr:TotW version works w/o cover or concealment (but is still a bit weaker b/c of the not-in-light condition)...although I couldn't actually find the template directly in that book, just its application to a lot of stat blocks. (Also it's a Su in the book.) Does Cormyr:TotW constitute an alternate version of the template, or just an application of it which (consistently throughout the book) disagrees with the template itself?

Curmudgeon
2011-01-21, 08:09 AM
The Dark Creature template is on page 152 of Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave, in the "Templates" section of the Appendix. As it's in a Forgotten Realms-specific adventure setting, this constitutes an FR-only update for campaigns that use that book.

ffone
2011-01-21, 08:35 PM
Thanks Cur! This happens to be Forgotten Realms and that version would be allowed, esp. if more recent.

With LA buyoff the template would be a no-brainer (even if it's not the best form of HiPS, w/ 3.5 XP you eventually catch up completely from a reduced ECL, as I'm sure you know). We're not doing that, and I don't think I can retcon 8 levels of avenger/assassin anytime soon (although it might be possible to take Dark and a LA +1, and then once the character reaches assassin-7, retrain Dark away for assassin-8), so hmm...

OTOH the ring of the darkhidden is allowed (invisible to darkvision), which would kick in in many of the same situations as the Dark HiPS, without needing to take the movements for the hide checks.

1. Shadowdancer gets a good version at L1 but as there items for granting its prereq feats (Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes)? I seem to vaguely recall a Mobility armor in MIC. Combat Reflexes is decent anyway if I want to eventually do opportunist + sneak attack of opportunity + savvy rogue (although I'd have to burn an epic feat slot for savvy rogue). Dodge less so.

2. Is there a reliable way to get full attacks and take advantage of HiPS?

Even with pounce or swift movement, the movement is typically before the attacks (always with pounce), and attacking un-hides you (the sniping post-attack hide is a move action with a -20 penalty). So, only you first attack gets hidden status - you'd need another reason to get sneak attack for the others, like flanking or blink - and you won't be hidden at the conclusion of your turn (so it doesn't help vs being targeted by enemies).

Do I want to simultaneously get Pounce and swift movement? (Psionic) Lion's Charge is a swift action, competing with most free-move methods (Belt of Battle, Quicksilver Boots, Anklet of Translocation, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, Travel Devotion, etc.). So am I looking at the inevitable Pouncebarian-1 dip that all nonspellcaster optimization seems to lead to?

Should I be using a ranged approach to take advantage of HiPS? Greater Manyshot for multiple precision-damage missiles, possibly with a chamberd wand of Sniper's Shot to sneak attack without the 30' range limit, then move?

Right now I'm mostly using 'magical / item' approaches to hide / invoke sneak attack damage, such as the Ring of the Darkhidden or Ring of Blinking to get invisible-attacker treatment, or swift-movement items such as the Belt of Battle, Quicksilver Boots to get into flanking position, or Lion's Charge to get to a flat-footed foe on surprise / first rounds. It's been working, but is dependent on the item wealth of high levels and generous item availability ('MagicMart') and the ring of blink takes a round to activate (I don't quite feel cheesy enough to declare the character reactivates it every few rounds outside of combat so that it's in-effect with some duration to go when random encounters start.) Maybe I should use that MIC rapier with the 2/day swift-action blink.

Urpriest
2011-01-21, 10:52 PM
My understand is that hiding during an attack (including a full attack) is possible with a -20 penalty. No need for extra movement. However my understanding of the stealth rules is hazy. This is one of those things Curmudgeon probably has a pre-written file on, so when he pops by this thread again he'll be able to give a more detailed explanation.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-22, 03:11 AM
(I really should save a writeup, but I like to customize the response to the issues actually being addressed.) In this case, the important thing is that Hide is piggybacked on some other action, so the check occurs while attacking. So if you weren't hidden when you started the attack, a successful Hide check (with -20 penalty) piggybacked on your attack would both boost this attack (+2 to hit; target denied DEX bonus to AC) and you would remain hidden afterward. Moving (and piggybacking a Hide check) and attacking (and piggybacking a Hide check) are different actions, and your enemy gets a reactive Spot check in each case. But once you succeed on a Hide check while attacking you're probably hidden for the full attack because of this:
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. The "something" term is vague, and DMs could interpret either broadly (you, doing whatever) or narrowly (you, in the same place and taking the same action), but standing in the same spot and taking the same attack repeatedly is pretty much always going to be regarded as the same "something". That means that, since the enemy can only make move action Spot rechecks on their turn, you're guaranteed to stay hidden through the rest of the full attack once you succeed the first time.

Mobility is indeed available as an armor enhancement which grants the feat. You can add this enhancement to either Bracers of Armor (Arms slot) or robes with an armor enhancement (Body slot); it doesn't require actual armor (see Magic Item Compendium and Arms and Equipment Guide for the rules). I don't know of any magic items that would grant Dodge. Combat Reflexes is granted by Serpent Armor (Savage Species), a specific armor. That feat adds 10,500 gp over the other armor costs, so perhaps your DM could allow Combat Reflexes to be added for the same cost to your Bracers of Armor or enhanced robes. (The price is correct, but custom items are always subject to DM approval.)

olentu
2011-01-22, 03:18 AM
Actually I recall that the DMG says that when one comes upon a contradiction in the rules one thing to remember for help with ruling the situation is that rules in published adventures never override those in rulebooks except when dealing with something strictly limited only to the adventure itself. Which I would say means that since the template is a general one as it is found in tome of magic should I be remembering correctly then the version of the template in the tearing of the weave adventure would seem to be incorrect.

Edit: I think I will just leave the hiding argument alone so as not to clutter the tread with more than one discussion of mine.

ffone
2011-01-22, 03:31 AM
Thanks. Yeah, adding the Combat Reflexes (computing its implicit 'flat add-on' cost from the item) onto Mobility armor would probably be allowed, leaving only Dodge, which is also a prereq for the Epic Dodge epic feat. One feat might be doable.

A List of Stuff for feats would be really nice. I've only found one, and it was quite short and incomplete.

Although, when using magic items to satisfy for prereqs - I've read that for other feats, etc., you'd simply lose their benefit if the magic item is taken off / suppressed by AMF / etc. When it's a whole class whose prereqs are being spoofed, what happens? Do you lose the HD and skill points? Are prereqs instantaneous by RAW and so dependent things aren't suppressed at all? (I was also interested in using Gloves of the Balanced Hand for Improved TWF and then taking Greater TWF as a feat.)

Being able to hide as part of a full attack would be very attractive. The Hide entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) gives me the impression it's part of movement, not part of any action (and for sniping, it's explicitly an extra move action after the ranged attack), so could it really be piggybacked onto the full attack?

Although, even if it can't, hmm: I always assumed that attacking 'un-hides' a character, and I see people state this frequently, but suddenly I realize I can't actually find this stated (except the sniping rule sort of implies it). Is it perhaps the case that attacking breaks the 'not being observed' condition and so a character with HiPS isn't automatically un-hidden by attacking?



Actually I recall that the DMG says that when one comes upon a contradiction in the rules one thing to remember for help with ruling the situation is that rules in published adventures never override those in rulebooks except when dealing with something strictly limited only to the adventure itself. Which I would say means that since the template is a general one as it is found in tome of magic should I be remembering correctly then the version of the template in the tearing of the weave adventure would seem to be incorrect.

Edit: I think I will just leave the hiding argument alone so as not to clutter the tread with more than one discussion of mine.

Thanks for the input. Although it seems to me to be not so much a contradiction of rules (rules being applied differently, etc.) as a different version of a thing (which is frequent from manual to manual, and I thought 'more recent takes precedence' was the rule).

olentu
2011-01-22, 03:43 AM
Thanks for the input. Although it seems to me to be not so much a contradiction of rules (rules being applied differently, etc.) as a different version of a thing (which is frequent from manual to manual, and I thought 'more recent takes precedence' was the rule).

Well if there was no contradiction neither would take precedence since both would work at all times. If there is a matter of precedence then that sort of requires a disagreement between the rules that can only come about if one contradicts the other on some point. At least that is how I would interpret the matter.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-22, 03:58 AM
When it's a whole class whose prereqs are being spoofed, what happens? Do you lose the HD and skill points?
Generally speaking, nothing happens.

However, there are two books with exceptions: Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. Those books each have rules (which are substantially different) specifying that you lose prestige class abilities if you fail to continuously maintain all entry requirements. Thus if you ever get DEX damaged/drained below 13, you would never again have access to any Complete Warrior prestige class features if the class requires Dodge for entry (Darkwood Sniper, Dervish, Drunken Master, Gnome Giant-Slayer). Similarly you would lose all Hulking Hurler class features if hit by Reduce Person or Polymorph to drop you down below Large size. Neither of these books provides any way to regain those lost class features; they're gone permanently.

The rules are on page 16 of Complete Warrior and page 17 of Complete Arcane. The principal difference: Complete Warrior has you lose everything but BAB, hit points, and saving throw improvements; Complete Arcane only loses class special abilities (those under the Special heading in the class tables) and retains all boosts to BAB, hit points, saving throws, Spells per Day/Spells Known, and Seeker Music (Seeker of the Song). Since Complete Arcane prestige classes mostly advance spellcasting, this rule is much less damaging than the Complete Warrior rule.

Thespianus
2011-01-22, 06:47 AM
Generally speaking, nothing happens.

However, there are two books with exceptions: Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. Those books each have rules (which are substantially different) specifying that you lose prestige class abilities if you fail to continuously maintain all entry requirements.

No, on Page 16, CW says that you lose the benefits of the prestige class class feature. You don't actually lose the class feature.

(However, CA, page 17, does say that you lose the class features. In the case of CA, you are right)

While it is not explicitly stated on page 16 that you regain the class feature after a temporarily lost requirement, it seems reasonable to assume that is what is intended, just as you dont permanently lose your Dex-bonus to AC when you are flat footed. ;)

olentu
2011-01-22, 03:14 PM
Edit: Bah I said only one discussion and the last has not been resolved having not received a response or an ignore.

ffone
2011-01-22, 07:22 PM
Well if there was no contradiction neither would take precedence since both would work at all times. If there is a matter of precedence then that sort of requires a disagreement between the rules that can only come about if one contradicts the other on some point. At least that is how I would interpret the matter.

Except it's not two "rules" "contradicting" each other. it's two versions of a thing - which is very frequent: WotC often spits out new versions of stuff.

You couldn't have "both work at all times" unless your DM let you take both versions of the template (which on one would do, and since one version strictly sups the other, you'd effectively just have the better one.)

I think your confusion is this: Hide in Plain Sight is not 'one' ability that works the same way irrespective of how you get it. There are a number of (prestige) classes or templates that get an ability with that name. Each one is a separate ability. They are very similar but not identical. (Ranger's is also different, for example.) The two entries are not contradictory explanations for how a common thing works...they are two different things.

Hence, the two versions of Dark are not 'contradicting' each other on how HiPS works. The two entries re not pointing to the same DnD concept and giving contradictory explanations of how it works. Rather, WotC gave each version a slightly different ability. (Pretend they have different names. It makes no difference.)

I guess you could call it a 'contradiction', but that's just semantics. Is there anything we're debating other than semantics? Are you claiming that the two existing versions of the things causes some inherent contradiction in the rules that requires any other action than "take the more recent one" or "use whichever one your DM tells you to / lets you"?

olentu
2011-01-22, 08:35 PM
Except it's not two "rules" "contradicting" each other. it's two versions of a thing - which is very frequent: WotC often spits out new versions of stuff.

You couldn't have "both work at all times" unless your DM let you take both versions of the template (which on one would do, and since one version strictly sups the other, you'd effectively just have the better one.)

I think your confusion is this: Hide in Plain Sight is not 'one' ability that works the same way irrespective of how you get it. There are a number of (prestige) classes or templates that get an ability with that name. Each one is a separate ability. They are very similar but not identical. (Ranger's is also different, for example.) The two entries are not contradictory explanations for how a common thing works...they are two different things.

Hence, the two versions of Dark are not 'contradicting' each other on how HiPS works. The two entries re not pointing to the same DnD concept and giving contradictory explanations of how it works. Rather, WotC gave each version a slightly different ability. (Pretend they have different names. It makes no difference.)

I guess you could call it a 'contradiction', but that's just semantics. Is there anything we're debating other than semantics? Are you claiming that the two existing versions of the things causes some inherent contradiction in the rules that requires any other action than "take the more recent one" or "use whichever one your DM tells you to / lets you"?

Er yeah two versions of the same thing where in one says that the rules work one way and the other says something different causes a contradiction between the two versions. If there was no contradiction then both would be applicable which I can see working two possible ways off the top of my head. Either there are actually not two versions on the template but rather two separate templates with the same name that are however not the same template or the template gains both benefits. However if one does not agree with those and thinks that the second template is saying that the first is wrong about what sort of hide in plain sight ability is given and vice versa then the two versions of the template are contradicting each other.

Really the only reason why there needs to be any rule for deciding precedence in the case of multiple versions of the same thing is because the rules in one place contradict the rules in another. If they did not contradict there would be no need to decide precedence.

ffone
2011-01-23, 07:18 PM
(My last post on this point, since this discussion is semantic and isn't going to teach anyone anything about actual DnD rules:)

Except they are not saying something different about "the rules." There is no common "the rules" there. The mechanics of Hide in Plain Sight are not a common ''rule' shared across all classes/templates which grant it. The text in each version of HiPS is not an explanation of some preexisting rule - they are *defining* how some specific thing works.

It's really semantics. I guess you could say they "contradict each other's rules", in the same way that every update / reprinting of something that changes the thing does - such as many spells in Spell Compendium or magic items in Magic Item Compendium.

But I think that, within the DnD community, if you said to someone "I found a contradiction in the rules", they would get the wrong impression about what you meant, and then when showed them what you meant, their reaction would be "that's more of an update / new version".

olentu
2011-01-25, 01:23 AM
(My last post on this point, since this discussion is semantic and isn't going to teach anyone anything about actual DnD rules:)

Except they are not saying something different about "the rules." There is no common "the rules" there. The mechanics of Hide in Plain Sight are not a common ''rule' shared across all classes/templates which grant it. The text in each version of HiPS is not an explanation of some preexisting rule - they are *defining* how some specific thing works.

It's really semantics. I guess you could say they "contradict each other's rules", in the same way that every update / reprinting of something that changes the thing does - such as many spells in Spell Compendium or magic items in Magic Item Compendium.

But I think that, within the DnD community, if you said to someone "I found a contradiction in the rules", they would get the wrong impression about what you meant, and then when showed them what you meant, their reaction would be "that's more of an update / new version".

Yeah I agree that this is not going to go anywhere as we seem to be much to entrenched and should be ended so as not to waste time. I am not going to even bother attempting to make a counterpoint.