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View Full Version : BBEG: Contingent Counter-Time Stop?



DragonSinged
2011-01-20, 05:04 PM
So, I had an idea about Time Stop, which prompted a few questions about Time Stop which may or may not be related. I'll get the questions out of the way first.

So, according to the fluff of Time Stop, it doesn't actually just stop time, it actually speeds up the caster so much that it seems like time is stopped for everyone else. Is it just me, or does that not really match with the effects of the spell? It seems to me like they wrote the spell, then said, "Wait, stopping time? That's way too powerful. Let's just refluff it so it really speeds up the caster." but didn't change the effects of the spell. If it were just speeding up your caster, first of all, why can't you do any direct damage to anyone? (Note that I'm not suggesting that you should, I understand why for mechanics reasons.)
Also, why do the effects of your spells progress at normal time for you, until the Time Stop runs out, and then progress at normal time for everone else?

Eh, I had a bunch of other questions, but they're really kind of pointless, so on to the ACTUAL POINT!


I was thinking, "Dang, DragonSinged, Time Stop is kind of a powerful spell! If you've got a wizard in your game who really likes to cast that spell, what's the BBEG gonna do? That is a crazy spell! Krazy, even!"

And then it hit me!

BBEG Special: Contingent Counter-Time Stop!

Basically, if Time Stop works by making the caster "speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen" then if one could somehow cast Time Stop at precisely the same moment that someone else cast Time Stop, you would, in essence, have everything and everyone on the battlefield seem to suddenly freeze in place, except for these two characters, who suddenly get the universe to themselves for a few rounds to duke things out between the two of them.

How epic would that be?

The only downside I see is that it's going to put the rest of the party on hold for the duration of this private battle.

However, if your wizard hasn't researched the enemy enough ahead of time to know that s/he's capable of pulling this off, it could potentially seriously put that wizard in his place.

As a note: Time Stop: "Other Creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."
I would rule that if two characters manage to cast time stop at precisely the same time, they are both fair targets for each other.

So yeah, what do you think? Like? Do not like? Thoughts?

TalonDemonKing
2011-01-20, 05:45 PM
Love it, using it, wish I came up with it myself

Toliudar
2011-01-20, 05:48 PM
There's an epic feat that, I think, does exactly what you're describing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway)

Urpriest
2011-01-20, 05:51 PM
It's a decent ruling. However:

If the BBEG is epic level (if the Wizard has Time Stop this is moderately likely) then you might as well just use the feat Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). It's generally interpreted to do what you're describing.

Also, things like Celerity (and for that matter, Instantaneous Rage :smallbiggrin:) can interrupt the Wizard's precious Time Stop.

Safety Sword
2011-01-20, 06:01 PM
So, I had an idea about Time Stop, which prompted a few questions about Time Stop which may or may not be related. I'll get the questions out of the way first.

So, according to the fluff of Time Stop, it doesn't actually just stop time, it actually speeds up the caster so much that it seems like time is stopped for everyone else. Is it just me, or does that not really match with the effects of the spell? It seems to me like they wrote the spell, then said, "Wait, stopping time? That's way too powerful. Let's just refluff it so it really speeds up the caster." but didn't change the effects of the spell. If it were just speeding up your caster, first of all, why can't you do any direct damage to anyone? (Note that I'm not suggesting that you should, I understand why for mechanics reasons.)
Also, why do the effects of your spells progress at normal time for you, until the Time Stop runs out, and then progress at normal time for everone else?

Eh, I had a bunch of other questions, but they're really kind of pointless, so on to the ACTUAL POINT!


I was thinking, "Dang, DragonSinged, Time Stop is kind of a powerful spell! If you've got a wizard in your game who really likes to cast that spell, what's the BBEG gonna do? That is a crazy spell! Krazy, even!"

And then it hit me!

BBEG Special: Contingent Counter-Time Stop!

Basically, if Time Stop works by making the caster "speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen" then if one could somehow cast Time Stop at precisely the same moment that someone else cast Time Stop, you would, in essence, have everything and everyone on the battlefield seem to suddenly freeze in place, except for these two characters, who suddenly get the universe to themselves for a few rounds to duke things out between the two of them.

How epic would that be?

The only downside I see is that it's going to put the rest of the party on hold for the duration of this private battle.

However, if your wizard hasn't researched the enemy enough ahead of time to know that s/he's capable of pulling this off, it could potentially seriously put that wizard in his place.

As a note: Time Stop: "Other Creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."
I would rule that if two characters manage to cast time stop at precisely the same time, they are both fair targets for each other.

So yeah, what do you think? Like? Do not like? Thoughts?

I would do it this way too. Think of it as a "time bubble" that both characters are sitting in. Imagine the look of horror on your PC spell caster when he realises that the BBEG is not standing there waiting to get pounded.

I might even go as far as rolling initiative for the "time bubble"

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-20, 08:39 PM
I think Time Stop was intentionally named to seem far more powerful than it actually is, sort of like the World Enlarger (http://www.wowhead.com/item=18660) which actually just shrinks your character. It would be like renaming the spell Giant Size into something like Shrink Universe, because like Time Stop, that's what it does from the caster's perspective.

In the Baldur's Gate 2 expansion the very last boss who I won't name for spoiler reasons has a similar ability. If one of your mages casts Time Stop, everything but that character and the boss freezes for the duration, and the boss just runs over and wrecks your mage's face.

At least your characters aren't using Astral Projection to go adventuring, or using Genesis to create a pocket plane where a week goes by for every round on the material plane, then casting Gate to throw a week's worth of spells into the material plane battle in a single round.

Spell Stowaway: Time Stop is just plain mean on someone who has a particularly strong charge and/or full attack. Give him a Contingency: Mislead for whenever his Spell Stowaway triggers and the illusion of him stands still just like everyone else, so he can take the caster of the Time Stop completely by surprise! (Nondetection can thwart See Invisibility, True Seeing, etc. and should be used by all BBEGs.)

Runestar
2011-01-20, 09:11 PM
Bear in mind that for spell stowaway, you must be able to cast the spell in question, so fighter types tend to be screwed in aspect.

Imagine a party of 4 wizards. One timestops, the rest all timestop automatically...:smallcool:

Morquard
2011-01-20, 10:18 PM
So, according to the fluff of Time Stop, it doesn't actually just stop time, it actually speeds up the caster so much that it seems like time is stopped for everyone else. Is it just me, or does that not really match with the effects of the spell? It seems to me like they wrote the spell, then said, "Wait, stopping time? That's way too powerful. Let's just refluff it so it really speeds up the caster." but didn't change the effects of the spell. If it were just speeding up your caster, first of all, why can't you do any direct damage to anyone? (Note that I'm not suggesting that you should, I understand why for mechanics reasons.)
Well I guess the reason for the fluff to be this way is simple: Scale.

If you would stop time, then you would essentially bring the entire freaking universe to a standstill for a few seconds, including such beings like gods etc.
If you speed up yourself, you're just effecting yourself. Much smaller scale, much smaller chance of messing up the universe, much more likely to be pulled of by a puny little mortal.

Koury
2011-01-20, 10:27 PM
Well I guess the reason for the fluff to be this way is simple: Scale.

Plus, if it actually messed with time, how would it work on, say, the Astral Plane?

Psyren
2011-01-20, 10:36 PM
There's an epic feat that, I think, does exactly what you're describing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway)

Quoting for posterity

If your BBEG is a Psion and you have Hyperconscious, the Mindscape will also pop up between the two of you the moment you become aware of each other.

Kelvara
2011-01-20, 11:40 PM
Bear in mind that for spell stowaway, you must be able to cast the spell in question, so fighter types tend to be screwed in aspect.

Imagine a party of 4 wizards. One timestops, the rest all timestop automatically...:smallcool:

I think I just threw up a little.


I like the original idea of two simultaneous timestops having both casters be in the time bubble. Would be very cool if the BBEG pretends to be frozen, then next round, when the PC mage goes to cast, BBEG just counter spells and gives an evil laugh as he reveals he's inside the time stop.

Though, remember, if they both cast timestop they might have different durations, since it's 1d4+1, so one could go back into normal time before the other.

Erom
2011-01-21, 12:20 AM
Though, remember, if they both cast timestop they might have different durations, since it's 1d4+1, so one could go back into normal time before the other.
The monster seems to accelerate, moving faster than the mage thought possible, and he realizes with creaping horror that his time stop is wearing off, but the monsters... isn't.

Seatbelt
2011-01-21, 12:27 AM
I could see this being really cool in a larger encounter. The PC mage casts timestop, the NPC mage casts his readied timestop. Now the two mages are locked in an epic battle of rocket tag while everyone else is frozen. The mages can drop AOEs like nobody's business because everyone is immune to damage. The fighter becomes a literal meat shield who grants cover. When timestop ends, one of the mages is dead. The other is stunned/unconscious/whatever and has to recover from the intense expenditure of magical energies while the party deals with the rest of the NPCs.

It could slow things to a crawl and some players might not enjoy it. But if done well I think it could be badass.

Runestar
2011-01-21, 01:11 AM
Wonder if there is a way to be even faster than timestop?

Anyone watched Kamen Rider Kabuto movie: God Speed Love? They go "Clock up", then the villian goes "Hyper clock-up" and proceeds to own them. :smallcool:

FelixG
2011-01-21, 01:40 AM
The monster seems to accelerate, moving faster than the mage thought possible, and he realizes with creaping horror that his time stop is wearing off, but the monsters... isn't.

Both player and BBEG activate time stop. BBEG wins initiative for the small battle. BBEGs first action: Cast time stop again! :smallbiggrin: