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Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-20, 08:02 PM
How much would it affect the balance (however tenuous it is) to allow a character to switch her casting stat from charisma to say...wis.

I ask this because, there has been sometimes when I really regret that most spontaneous casting classes, key it of Cha, it is not really a power concern (due the stupid amount of ways to use cha for everything, check personman's X to Y thread if you don't believe me); but there are sometimes that it just doesn't fit role-playing wise, and it makes extremely hard to make a competent character without jumping through a lot of hoops.

For example; a few months ago I was toying with a Mystic Ranger/Suel Arcanamach/ Arcane Hierophant build; it would have been a pretty good build gishy build in my opinion Good martial progress (16 Bab by level 20) 5th level casting from rangers and suel list, good CL, and if I managed a good int I could serve as a secondary skill monkey; but because Suel cast of Cha, either I begged for a high point buy or rolled extremely well; or some other stat would have suffered.

This may not bee a good example, since gish builds are MAD by default (with some exceptions such as a psy-gish using control body and solicit psicrystal trick)]; but I think this bears mentioning.

By the way I know about those feats in some dragonlance book (academic priest or something) that let's clerics key of their casting from other stat; my question is would it change the balance that much to add such an ability as a feat or something for other casters.

Thurbane
2011-01-20, 08:07 PM
There's a feat in the 3rd party 3.0 Bastards and Bloodlines that does this:

LOST TRADITION [GENERAL]
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.
Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.
For example, Meishel Ellazen is a houri cleric. She takes the Lost Tradition feat and chooses to base her clerical spellcasting on Charisma instead of Wisdom. She now uses her Charisma score to determine her bonus spells, spell save DCs, maximum spell level she may cast, and any other calculation regarding her cleric spells.
Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.

ericgrau
2011-01-20, 08:10 PM
It is certainly no more powerful than other X to Y feats, but then again a lot of those are pretty powerful.

The main game balance concern when going from cha to wis is the big boost you got to your will save. The feat is now better than iron will x 2. Solution: make it 2 feats :smalltongue:. One feat could switch over spells per day and the other could switch over save DCs. If OTOH your group plays with those crazy X to Y feats or others on par with them, forget what I said and I'd say if anything you're getting shortchanged by paying an entire feat when there are crazier X to Ys out there.

EDIT: Hmm, actually save DCs are better than bonus spells. I'd also tack on "minimum stat needed to cast a spell at all" on the same feat as the bonus spells feat, to help even it out. Along with anything else I might have forgotten.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-20, 08:10 PM
Nice... it is a shame it only works at first level, I am a fan of starting gish builds using Ranger for skill points... though the wording Implies I can select the spellcasting class without levels in it (or at least it doesn't outright denies that).

Thanks Thurbane, that is just what I wanted, now I need to for my GM to green lighting it (yeah...this wasn't a selfless idea)

But, now another question, how much do you think it would affect the game balance?

Edit: @ericgrau: Assuming you are talking about my MR/SA/AH idea... I was originally thinking on changing SA casting to Int; which is my favourite casting stat (which is weird considering I don't play wizard... prepared casting gives me headaches)

FatJose
2011-01-20, 08:15 PM
I always thought Constitution was a better casting stat for Sorcerers, considering their powers came directly from their bodies. And Con isn't used for much of anything besides Fort, HP and Concentration. Wisdom makes sense because of the "Instinct" angle. Really, it shouldn't unbalance things as long as you aren't abusing it to the point of having a character that does everything with one single stat.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-20, 08:17 PM
As I said, this came up from my love of gishes, and that many of the better gishy class use charisma, when I would prefer wis or even better int (me <3 skill points)

Thespianus
2011-01-21, 07:01 AM
There's a feat in the 3rd party 3.0 Bastards and Bloodlines that does this:

LOST TRADITION [GENERAL]
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.
Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Outstanding! I key my Wizard casting to Con, coz I cast as much spells I can stomach! ;)

Also, for a Duskblade, keying the casting to Strength would be yumyum too.

Sweet! :smallsmile:

Psyren
2011-01-21, 09:03 AM
Outstanding! I key my Wizard casting to Con, coz I cast as much spells I can stomach! ;)

Also, for a Duskblade, keying the casting to Strength would be yumyum too.

Sweet! :smallsmile:

You raise an interesting point... that feat should specify "mental ability scores." :P

Callista
2011-01-21, 09:08 AM
Favored Soul focused entirely on charisma would be cool... But, y'know, I kind of thing my clericky characters should have some kind of a Wisdom score.

Combat Reflexes
2011-01-21, 09:15 AM
LOST TRADITION [GENERAL]
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.
Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.
For example, Meishel Ellazen is a houri cleric. She takes the Lost Tradition feat and chooses to base her clerical spellcasting on Charisma instead of Wisdom. She now uses her Charisma score to determine her bonus spells, spell save DCs, maximum spell level she may cast, and any other calculation regarding her cleric spells.
Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.

How the hell would you key spellcasting off Dexterity?

"I'm very nimble and dexterous, so I get more spells per day that are harder to resist!":smallamused:

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-21, 09:21 AM
You raise an interesting point... that feat should specify "mental ability scores." :P

Totally agreed, though the idea of a gestalt war hulk/cancer mage//Wizard keying spellcasting of strength... is quite scary.


Outstanding! I key my Wizard casting to Con, coz I cast as much spells I can stomach! ;)

Also, for a Duskblade, keying the casting to Strength would be yumyum too.

Sweet! :smallsmile:

Constitution makes some sort of sense, the strength on the other hand... not so much


Favored Soul focused entirely on charisma would be cool... But, y'know, I kind of thing my clericky characters should have some kind of a Wisdom score.

I prefer wisdom as casting stat, I don't like charisma that much


How the hell would you key spellcasting off Dexterity?

"I'm very nimble and dexterous, so I get more spells per day that are harder to resist!":smallamused:
... you move your fingers so fast you can tear holes in the reality.

Thespianus
2011-01-21, 09:27 AM
Constitution makes some sort of sense, the strength on the other hand... not so much

"I'm so strong, I tear holes in the fabric of the universe. Mooar ssspellss!!" ?!? ;)

Would make for a fun Duskblade, though

Psyren
2011-01-21, 09:29 AM
Favored Soul focused entirely on charisma would be cool... But, y'know, I kind of thing my clericky characters should have some kind of a Wisdom score.

*Shugenja waves*


How the hell would you key spellcasting off Dexterity?

"I'm very nimble and dexterous, so I get more spells per day that are harder to resist!":smallamused:

Breakdancing, obv :smalltongue:

Actually, it could potentially make sense for a Shadowcaster; Mysteries are somatic-only (while they are still spells, anyway.)

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-21, 09:30 AM
Definitely fun; but the mental image seems weird.... like something out of DBZ

Edit: this is in reference to the Strentgh based duskblade BTW

:shakes fist at psyren: Don't post something that will make my own post seem incongruous :smallyuk:


:smalltongue:

Thurbane
2011-01-21, 06:00 PM
Totally agreed, though the idea of a gestalt war hulk/cancer mage//Wizard keying spellcasting of strength... is quite scary.
True...it would make more sense if it specified mental stats.

You can still break casting without it though...for example, an Illumian spellcaster with the Aeshkrau sigil and a Cancer Mage dip can potentially get near infinite STR, with bonus spells keyed of his STR bonus.

Zaydos
2011-01-21, 06:08 PM
I'm a druid that casts off of Strength.

Ernir
2011-01-21, 06:12 PM
A feat or two, as Ericgrau suggested, sounds like an appropriate cost.

Why a feat and not for free? Because this cracks the SAD-potential of some builds way open.

How the hell would you key spellcasting off Dexterity?
By being an Uurkrau Illumian, from Races of Destiny. They have one for Strength as well.

Only works for bonus spells, but still.

EDIT: Swordsage'd by minutes...

true_shinken
2011-01-21, 06:48 PM
How the hell would you key spellcasting off Dexterity?

"I'm very nimble and dexterous, so I get more spells per day that are harder to resist!":smallamused:

Your lost tradition is an intrincate dance.