Tsukiko's Ritual

[Nevereatcars]

So, uh, I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I just had a nerdpiphany and realized that the ritual Tsukiko was copying for Xykon, with half Arcane and half Divine magic in it, was most likely the Gate Rituals that Redcloak was taught when he put on the Mantle. Thoughts.

[Leecros]

So, uh, I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I just had a nerdpiphany and realized that the ritual Tsukiko was copying for Xykon, with half Arcane and half Divine magic in it, was most likely the Gate Rituals that Redcloak was taught when he put on the Mantle. Thoughts.

now all they have to do is get the divine part out of Redcloak and he(Redcloak) becomes expendable...

[KillItWithFire]

If Tsukiko learns the divine half of the ritual than Redcloak is going to become a lot less essential very soon. I see little doubt that the ritual in question was in fact the gate ritual and especially after reading Start of Darkness I have held every expectation that Redcloak is going to be killed by Xykon.

EDIT: took a level in ninja did you?

[Morquard]

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what everyone thinks it is.

Also she wasn't copying it she was studying it. And it was only half the ritual, so probably only Xykons half. Most likely he gave it to her to find out what it really does.

[KillItWithFire]

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what everyone thinks it is.

Also she wasn't copying it she was studying it. And it was only half the ritual, so probably only Xykons half. Most likely he gave it to her to find out what it really does.

if an epic level sorcerer can't find what an arcane ritual does when a mid-high level mystic theurge can... I'm pretty sure he wants her to actually learn the ritual. Personally I think the fact that Tsukiko can learn both parts of the gate ritual makes her extremely dangerous, kind of like the two keys for the nuclear missiles thing in The Hunt for Red October, you don't want one man to be able to arm the missiles.

[Nevereatcars]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, that Redcloak is probably going to feel quite... rotten, very soon. (figure out the pun, I'll give you a cookie.)

[KillItWithFire]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, that Redcloak is probably going to feel quite... rotten, very soon. (figure out the pun, I'll give you a cookie.)

Are you proposing a Redcloak zombie?

[Leecros]

EDIT: took a level in ninja did you?

I don't get much at this level, but next level i get Ghost Step, and then it gets interesting.(See: Reworked Ninja)




the fact that Tsukiko can learn both parts of the gate ritual makes her extremely dangerous

Yes, yes it does. I agree. Although her greatest weakness is the fact that i doubt she's higher level than the order(although i could be easily wrong)

[Nevereatcars]

Are you proposing a Redcloak zombie?

"Yes, you have gleaned my intentions perfectly. Have a cookie."

[Morquard]

if an epic level sorcerer can't find what an arcane ritual does when a mid-high level mystic theurge can... I'm pretty sure he wants her to actually learn the ritual. Personally I think the fact that Tsukiko can learn both parts of the gate ritual makes her extremely dangerous, kind of like the two keys for the nuclear missiles thing in The Hunt for Red October, you don't want one man to be able to arm the missiles.
a) Xykon is lazy, b) Xykon can't concentrate on one thing for more than 5 minutes c) Xykon is a sorcerer, not a wizard. and most importantly d) Xykon has no clue whatsoever about divine magic.

Since the ritual requires arcane and divine magic to do anything, the thing wouldn't make sense to him in the first place. If he ever get past a) and b).
c) means he doesn't study magic, it comes naturally to him. He's been looked down on by wizards all his life, I think he sort of takes pride in doing things differently. Sitting down and studying arcane magic? Naw, never.
So he gave it to Tsukiko since she has knowledge of arcane and divine magic.

I don't think it's RC's half, because I assume RC is guarding that part jealously, since as was pointed out before he'd become obsolete if Xykon gets his bony fingers on that too.
(He might not even have his part written down, through the crimson mantle he might not have to, as the Dark One could do the ritual for/through him, or at least tell him what to do)

[Nevereatcars]

Okay, now I want to go read through the strip in question again, but I can't find it. Who wants to link it?

[ADHD]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html

[Nimrod's Son]

Thoughts.
Pleasingly, you're within a few hours of being exactly a year late (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139072) with your realisation. :smallsmile:

[Felixc-91]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html this one is also relevant 700 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html)

[Felixc-91]

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what everyone thinks it is.

Also she wasn't copying it she was studying it. And it was only half the ritual, so probably only Xykons half. Most likely he gave it to her to find out what it really does. yep, i agree. i wonder what :xykon: is going to do to redcloak once he learns what the spell actually does. or will tusiko actually figure it out? i mean we know it requires really powerful (read as high level) casters to pull off... perhaps its above her head.

[factotum]

b) Xykon can't concentrate on one thing for more than 5 minutes

That's incorrect...he spent years decoding Serini's diary to find the location of the gates, for example. When he has a need to concentrate on something he can do it just fine, he just has no ability to concentrate on subjects that don't interest him (e.g. troop dispositions at the battle of Azure City). Your other points are good, though.

[Mecharious]

Xykon also spends 8 hours a day making magic items. So he can concentrate on a task; his goofing around is just alleviating boredom.

[Morquard]

Xykon also spends 8 hours a day making magic items. So he can concentrate on a task; his goofing around is just alleviating boredom.
That was needed to find the location of the next gate.
Making magic items was needed for protection etc.
Understanding the ritual is not so much "needed" as "Hmm lets see if Redcloak was telling the truth"-interesting. Sure he would love to know, but spend time on it?

Also again: No wizard. His "Knowledge: Arcane" probably is pretty low too.

[Kish]

Actually, if he performs the ritual without knowing what it does, it will turn control of the Gate over to the Dark One and Xykon's unlife expectancy will drop to seconds.

If he suspects that, confirming it before he performs the ritual is at least as important as spending eight hours a day making magic items.



Also again: No wizard. His "Knowledge: Arcane" probably is pretty low too.
I doubt that very much. Knowledge: Arcana is a class skill for sorcerers as much as for wizards, and sorcerers get the same number of class-based skill points as wizards. Xykon doesn't have as many skill points as a high-Intelligence character of the same level would, but it's unlikely that he has a small number of skill points.

[DeltaEmil]

That is doubtful. To be able to cast epic spells, one has to have 24 ranks in spellcraft, and in the case of an arcane spellcaster like Xykon, also 24 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana).

Xykon is a extremely capable arcanist. One should never make the mistake that he's supbar to a wizard if it comes to magic. He has the spells, the necessary knowledge and the magical items to beat the best of them (and if necessary, by spamming Energy Drain again and again).

He won't have much in Knowledge (Religion), which is needed to know about the divine magic part of the ritual.

[faustin]

Actually, I see Tsukiko as a convenient pawn. The ritual is powerful and dangerous, so better for Xykon and RC to let her take the risk of being vaporized. Also, she is a villainess in love with the Big Bad (and heartless) Guy, so the drama laws demand she gets betrayed for X while asking him to save her life.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Actually, I see Tsukiko as a convenient pawn. The ritual is powerful and dangerous, so better for Xykon and RC to let her take the risk of being vaporized. Also, she is a villainess in love with the Big Bad (and heartless) Guy, so the drama laws demand she gets betrayed for X while asking him to save her life.

Oooo, good call Imageless deal with a devil named buddy!!!

[Morquard]

Actually, if he performs the ritual without knowing what it does, it will turn control of the Gate over to the Dark One and Xykon's unlife expectancy will drop to seconds.

If he suspects that, confirming it before he performs the ritual is at least as important as spending eight hours a day making magic items.

While you're right of course, what tells you that Xykon suspects that the Ritual will turn over command to the DO?
The way I see it there are two possibilities why Xykon has Tsukiko research the spell or doing any research of his own:
a) He suspects RC didn't tell him the full truth about the ritual and wants to find out
b) He wants to get rid of RC but can't yet, because he's the only one that knows the divine part of the ritual, and won't tell. So he hopes that Tsukiko, being a arcane and divine caster might figure out the missing divine half when she studies his ritual.

Nothing says those two are mutually exclusive. Why he uses Tsukiko and doesn't do it himself? He's lazy, she's there, she's in love with him and won't betray him (for now anyway), and if she does she's not nearly high level enough to pose a threat.


I doubt that very much. Knowledge: Arcana is a class skill for sorcerers as much as for wizards, and sorcerers get the same number of class-based skill points as wizards. Xykon doesn't have as many skill points as a high-Intelligence character of the same level would, but it's unlikely that he has a small number of skill points.
Ok, I guess you're right, also since he apperently needs it for epic spells, he probably has the skills he would need.
But again, he has most likely ZERO in Knowledge: Divine magic. Which would hamper his chances at success to figure out the divine half considerably.

[Leecros]

The way I see it there are two possibilities why Xykon has Tsukiko research the spell or doing any research of his own:
a) He suspects RC didn't tell him the full truth about the ritual and wants to find out
b) He wants to get rid of RC but can't yet, because he's the only one that knows the divine part of the ritual, and won't tell. So he hopes that Tsukiko, being a arcane and divine caster might figure out the missing divine half when she studies his ritual.

I feel both of those are most likely...likely. The question is how will Xykon get the other part of the ritual out of him? I don't see it as something that Redcloak would give up at all.

[Felixc-91]

I feel both of those are most likely...likely. The question is how will Xykon get the other part of the ritual out of him? I don't see it as something that Redcloak would give up at all.some one with sufficient knowledge religion and arcana (a requirement for mystic theurges) might be able to logic out the other half of the spell...

[Leecros]

some one with sufficient knowledge religion and arcana (a requirement for mystic theurges) might be able to logic out the other half of the spell...

Maybe, but that would depend on whether she was high enough of a level to have sufficient enough knowledge to make the checks.

[Felixc-91]

Maybe, but that would depend on whether she was high enough of a level to have sufficient enough knowledge to make the checks.indeed, but it may not be that far fetched given that she has the time to take 20 on all her checks. hmmm, the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) puts her at a minimum of level 14 (if I'm reading that right) so 14+3+20=37 for a maxed out skill... so once she takes the time she just might know enough to figure it out.

[Zevox]

I doubt that very much. Knowledge: Arcana is a class skill for sorcerers as much as for wizards, and sorcerers get the same number of class-based skill points as wizards. Xykon doesn't have as many skill points as a high-Intelligence character of the same level would, but it's unlikely that he has a small number of skill points.
Actually, it's very likely that Xykon has a small number of skill points. That number of class-based skill points that both wizards and sorcerers get is a meager 2+int. Wizards tend have a high number of skill points because they have to have high intelligence. Sorcerers, not so much, and Xykon in particular definitely did not have impressive intelligence before becoming a Lich, and probably isn't much above average even now. Since gaining intelligence does not retroactively add skill points, he most likely gained only 1 or 2 points for the majority of his levels, up until aging and Lich boosts started seriously kicking in.

Zevox

[Leecros]

indeed, but it may not be that far fetched given that she has the time to take 20 on all her checks. hmmm, the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) puts her at a minimum of level 14 (if I'm reading that right) so 14+3+20=37 for a maxed out skill... so once she takes the time she just might know enough to figure it out.

Hey...i was looking for that....:smalltongue:

[Shoelessgdowar]

Actually, it's very likely that Xykon has a small number of skill points. That number of class-based skill points that both wizards and sorcerers get is a meager 2+int. Wizards tend have a high number of skill points because they have to have high intelligence. Sorcerers, not so much, and Xykon in particular definitely did not have impressive intelligence before becoming a Lich, and probably isn't much above average even now. Since gaining intelligence does not retroactively add skill points, he most likely gained only 1 or 2 points for the majority of his levels, up until aging and Lich boosts started seriously kicking in.

Zevox

Totally agree.

BTW, love your "Blind Bandit" pic, sooooooooo awesome!!!

[Morquard]

Maybe, but that would depend on whether she was high enough of a level to have sufficient enough knowledge to make the checks.
Yes, but she has a better chance than Xykon would have.
Also really only one way to find out, and that's trying.

It's possible that the entire "give control to the Dark One" part of the ritual is hidden in the divine part of it, so Xykon doesn't accidently figure it out when he studies his piece. Whihc would mean that Tsukiko might actually come up with a divine filler that does NOT do that.

[faustin]

Call me crazy, but in my mind I imagine the scene from V for Vendetta between V and Creedy in the greenhouse: "Come now, Mr. Creedy, you knew this was coming. You knew that one day, it'd be you or him. That's why Sutler's been kept underground, for "security purposes". That's why there are several of your men close to Sutler. Men that could be counted on. All you have to do is say the word. "


It´s easy to translate Creedy for RC and Xykon for Sutler (although X is substancially more difficult to kill, the phylactery is still his Achilles heel). The problem is I don´t see any character to play V (Haley?).

[Felixc-91]

Call me crazy, but in my mind I imagine the scene from V for Vendetta between V and Creedy in the greenhouse: "Come now, Mr. Creedy, you knew this was coming. You knew that one day, it'd be you or him. That's why Sutler's been kept underground, for "security purposes". That's why there are several of your men close to Sutler. Men that could be counted on. All you have to do is say the word. "


It´s easy to translate Creedy for RC and Xykon for Sutler (although X is substancially more difficult to kill, the phylactery is still his Achilles heel). The problem is I don´t see any character to play V (Haley?).huh... nice catch, i can definitely see it. although in this case we may see the entire Oots preforming the role of V. if it had to be one character then either Roy or Haley (i expect Belkar to be dead before this point in the story, Elan isn't smart enough to pull it off, Varsuuvius already tried to kill Red Cloak and probably could not get him to cooperate, and Durkon... lawful humble who doesn't take the center stage {when he can avoid it})

[Shoelessgdowar]

huh... nice catch, i can definitely see it. although in this case we may see the entire Oots preforming the role of V. if it had to be one character then either Roy or Haley (i expect Belkar to be dead before this point in the story, Elan isn't smart enough to pull it off, Varsuuvius already tried to kill Red Cloak and probably could not get him to cooperate, and Durkon... lawful humble who doesn't take the center stage {when he can avoid it})

Presuming Belkar isn't dead... I'd say he's nearly perfect... sadistic, check... blades, check... mad fighting skills, check... total disregard for laws, check... willing to kill the right people for the right reasons but not really caring about the reasons, check.... Surprising skill at overacting, check... cooking skills, check... Yup, Belkar is near perfect.