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MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 12:50 AM
What makes a character dangerous in an anti-magic field? What features, abilities, or stats make them formidable when magic has been removed from the equation?

EDIT - I should clarify, I'm think about frontlining melee guys here. Not how to keep magic users dangerous. What makes melee guys dangerous in an AMF? what abilities, stats, and qualities stand out the most in an AMF?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-21, 12:53 AM
If your a sorcerer you can take the Draconic Heritage feat and then Draconic Breathe to do okay damage inside of an Anti-magic field. You max out at 18d6, which is kinda crappy, but the fact your enemy can't cast at all is nice.

Draz74
2011-01-21, 12:59 AM
Being able to do magic anyway.
Being able to win the action economy: lock down the opponent (grapple?) or add extra actions to himself (Factotum?) or his allies (White Raven Tactics?).
Being able to dish out and take a LOT of damage.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-21, 01:03 AM
What makes a character dangerous in an anti-magic field? What features, abilities, or stats make them formidable when magic has been removed from the equation?

Being a better fighter than your enemy :smallwink:.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 01:08 AM
If your a sorcerer you can take the Draconic Heritage feat and then Draconic Breathe to do okay damage inside of an Anti-magic field. You max out at 18d6, which is kinda crappy, but the fact your enemy can't cast at all is nice.

Draconic Breath? I'm not seeing that feat in Dragon Magic.



Being able to do magic anyway.
Being able to win the action economy: lock down the opponent (grapple?) or add extra actions to himself (Factotum?) or his allies (White Raven Tactics?).
Being able to dish out and take a LOT of damage.



Fair enough. And how would you go about doing that?
Action economy. Excellent. :smallsmile:
Fair enough...anything more specific? High attck vs Power attack vs bonus damage dice vs DR vs AC etc?



Being a better fighter than your enemy :smallwink:.

Yes. How? :smallamused: What would be your recommended tactics?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-21, 01:09 AM
Its in Complete Arcane. Most of them aren't very good, but I like the breathe weapons since they give you a blasting ability that works despite spell resistance and in AMF.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 01:10 AM
Its in Complete Arcane. Most of them aren't very good, but I like the breathe weapons since they give you a blasting ability that works despite spell resistance and in AMF.

I'm afraid it states that Draconic Breath is a supernatural ability, which means it is suppressed in an AMF. :smallfrown:

Tvtyrant
2011-01-21, 01:13 AM
I'm afraid it states that Draconic Breath is a supernatural ability, which means it is suppressed in an AMF. :smallfrown:

Curses, I missed that part. Well that feat is utterly useless. Sorry to waste your time :(

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-21, 01:14 AM
As far as casting in AMF...

The Initiate of Mystra feat allows you to cast in an Antimagic Field, as does Invoke Magic. The Twice Betrayer of Shar is a build that uses this sort of AMF abuse as part of its shtick.

Other things that only sort of count:

Certain spells, like Wall of Force, Prismatic Wall/Sphere, and most instantaneous conjurations can be cast into an AMF (from outside the AMF).

The Archmage's Mastery of Shaping and the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat both allow you to sculpt an AMF so that you're not technically in it.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 01:14 AM
Curses, I missed that part. Well that feat is utterly useless. Sorry to waste your time :(

Hey, no waste here! Just adding to the knowledge pool. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2011-01-21, 01:19 AM
What makes a character dangerous in an anti-magic field? What features, abilities, or stats make them formidable when magic has been removed from the equation?

EDIT - I should clarify, I'm think about frontlining melee guys here. Not how to keep magic users dangerous. What makes melee guys dangerous in an AMF? what abilities, stats, and qualities stand out the most in an AMF?
Step 1: Acquire sword.
Step 2: Acquire AMF.
Step 3: Acquire enemy you wish to hurt. Place in AMF.
Step 4: Grab enemy by the face. Yell something warrior sounding. Thrust sword through enemies face.
Step 5: Repeat Step 4 until enemy is dead.
Step 6: Repeat Steps 3-6 until out of enemies.
Step 7: Have a "Conan" moment.
Step 8: Drink lemonade.


EDIT: Ok, a less funny answer. The real answer is to be your fairly standard Barbarian Pounce Charger smashystabbitywahey character, and just ensure you're always in an AMF and so are they. Your damage output is entirely non-magical in nature, so as long as we're assuming you and he are both in the AMF for the stabbity moment, they're going to die.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-21, 01:19 AM
Yes. How? :smallamused: What would be your recommended tactics?

Essentially, you do it the old fashioned way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-pUc49fV4A&feature=related

If all magic has genuinely been removed (there's a spell in Lords of Madness called spark of magic or something that lets you cast low level spells even in an anti magic field) then it boils down to who's better at fisticuffs :smalltongue: (or sword swinging, grappling, tripping etc, as the case may be).

tyckspoon
2011-01-21, 01:28 AM
It helps to be a monstrous race, really, because that means a larger portion of your stats does not come from magic, and you probably have some natural weapons and natural armor that you can lean on while your gear is shut down. One of the best options is of course to be a dragon, but the ECL required to get AMF combined with being a sufficiently dangerous dragon is punitively high (that, and area emanations do some pretty weird stuff when you're bigger than the area of the spell.)

For a little lower end optimization that doesn't involve huge RHD+LA, consider the Swiftblade. Straightforward gish, relatively weaker for all the lost caster levels involved, but it does some really neat things with Haste and has one important advantage in this field: At level 6, its Haste spell (and all the attendant bonuses it gets for Hasting itself) becomes Extraordinary. So it can free-cast Haste, cast Antimagic Field, and proceed to chew you up with its enhanced full attacks and 50% miss chance. And enhanced speed, just in case you felt like trying to leave. Oh, and it's an arcane-based gish, so it's probably packing Improved Trip and a reach weapon in there somewhere, and your magical flight is disabled. Enjoy your next few rounds.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-21, 01:32 AM
Well, there is always Wildshape; Dire Tigers work in an AMF just fine.

tyckspoon
2011-01-21, 01:33 AM
Well, there is always Wildshape; Dire Tigers work in an AMF just fine.

Supernatural. Gets turned off. Dire Tigers do work, but Druids pretending to be Dire Tigers don't (their Animal Companions, on the other hand, can go in and eat face just fine.)

Tvtyrant
2011-01-21, 01:35 AM
Supernatural. Gets turned off. Dire Tigers do work, but Druids pretending to be Dire Tigers don't (their Animal Companions, on the other hand, can go in and eat face just fine.)

I'm fairly sure the transforming is, not the shape. Wow, my answers are sucking today. Fine, case Planar Binding and bind something to fight in the AMF.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2011-01-21, 01:36 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

The last two panels sum it up.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-01-21, 01:37 AM
A high Intimidate skill plus Imperious Command can keep an enemy cowering for an entire encounter. If you can demoralize without spending your standard action, or if you can demoralize and also attack, then your opponent is as good as dead. The Intimidating Rage feat in CW, or the Fighter 9 Zhentarim Soldier (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution level, or if you want to waste 13 levels to get CW Samurai 14, you can keep an opponent cowering in the AMF and you'll eventually hit them enough times to kill them unless they have some kind of natural regeneration or if your Rage runs out in the case of Intimidating Rage.

Jothki
2011-01-21, 01:39 AM
Anyone can be dangerous in an antimagic field. All you need is two chunks of uranium kept apart by a magical barrier.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 02:03 AM
Good replies, thanks. Sounds like it is mostly what I expected the answer to be - hit things and be beefy. :smalltongue:

Scary note on the Swiftblade, I love that PrC. Monstrous races are a good idea. And I love that comic. :smallbiggrin:

Fishy
2011-01-21, 05:02 AM
AMF affects a ten foot radius, which means that it can be defeated by 'walking briskly in one direction'. In order to be effective, you either have to kill them in one round with huge non-magical damage, or pin them in place by non-magical means.

Grappling and Tripping help, as do nets, lassos, mancatchers and harpoons.

ericgrau
2011-01-21, 05:15 AM
Ya grapple foe, foe stays in antimagic field. Get good light weapon damage or unarmed damage through feats or class features. Hmm maybe grapple + sneak attack. Ideally you can two man it or else use improved feint. Put strength before dex if you're doing both.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 09:16 AM
There are two spellcasters I wouldn't mind having while in an Antimagic Field.

1) Wizard 5 / Swiftblade 6 - Haste then becomes an extraordinary ability and still functions inside an antimagic field. If you dip 1 level of fighter to obtain weapon and armor proficiencies, then you can rule combat inside an an antimagic field.

2) Wizard 8 / Effigy Master 5 - Constructs work normally inside an antimagic field, so they could still kick major butt. You just need to make sure you've made several effigys. I normally have a mount effigy, and several combat effigies with me at all times.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-21, 10:11 AM
A Soulknife keeps his mindblade magic with DC20 check (he can retry every round). Now that means he can still do decent damage.
Good thing most DR's are turned off by Antimagic field (except material ones and DR/-).

HunterOfJello
2011-01-21, 10:14 AM
Iron Heart Surge. (Even though I don't allow it in my games and doubt many DMs do.)


Also, poisons are fun.

Toliudar
2011-01-21, 12:35 PM
If you're a melee specialist using AMF's to kill casters, the trick seems to be being able to reach them (assume that they're off the ground, and a fair distance away from you), and then killing them before they have a chance to move out of the AMF.

A level-adjusted race that gives you decent flying will help with the first of these. An ubercharger build or lockdown specialist might both be reasonable ways to deal with the second.

Lateral
2011-01-21, 01:06 PM
Generally, when you use an AMF for melee, you either are some kind of lockdown build, or you cast a Wall spell beforehand to box them in. (Can you say 'cage match'?)


Iron Heart Surge. (Even though I don't allow it in my games and doubt many DMs do.)

Wait, what? Iron Heart Surge is one of the best things about being a Warblade! Why the hell would you ban it?
Never mind, you meant that you don't let IHS negate AMFs, didn't you. My bad. :smallredface:

Beheld
2011-01-21, 01:11 PM
Bottom line. Nothing makes a melee character dangeous in an AMF.

Pick a monster from the MM, one of those ones that punches things, maybe a giant, or a glabrezu, or whatever.

Compare it to a melee build with no magic items.

What do you have? Well, you have a monster from the MM, and a bag of paste.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-21, 01:14 PM
A level-adjusted race that gives you decent flying will help with the first of these.
It's better to go with grafts, since they're not magical (mostly; some of them produce spell-like effects a few times daily). Check Fiend Folio for a couple of options: Feathered Wings and Membranous Wings.

Ernir
2011-01-21, 01:15 PM
Be a dragon.

CaeruliusVentus
2011-01-21, 01:20 PM
Not much of a good idea for PC's but certainly good at killing them:
Master specialist abjurationist casting AMF on a frenzied berserker goliath with an oversized sword. The berserker's AC ends up in the single digits, but it is immortal while raging (can be >10 rounds with feats) and can deal enough damage to make a dwarven defender fall apart. If the abjurationist casts dimension anchor, then there is no hope but to try to outrun the berserker.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-21, 01:45 PM
Be a dragon.
I wouldn't call that a great suggestion. Most dragon abilities are either Supernatural or Spell-like, including breath weapons. Their flight gets worse (clumsy maneuverability) as they gain more HD. You might make it work with a whole bunch of feats:

Improved Flight
Hover
Dodge (prerequisite)
Maneuverability (prerequisite)
Flyby Attack
Improved Flyby Attack

Zen Monkey
2011-01-21, 01:46 PM
Mobility and range. As a lot of low-level characters have learned (a fairly low magic environment on its own) some quick archers are trouble, worse if stealth is involved too.

Squark
2011-01-21, 02:45 PM
You know, It's always bothered me that Constructs and Undead still work in an AMF. Elementals, Abberations? Sure. But Constructs and Undead really ought to fall over like a sad sack of bones/metal.


I suppose it's to stop cheese kills, but still.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-21, 09:29 PM
It's better to go with grafts, since they're not magical (mostly; some of them produce spell-like effects a few times daily). Check Fiend Folio for a couple of options: Feathered Wings and Membranous Wings.

Beat me to it. I'm personally fond of Grappling Tentacle myself. Or Long Arm. Ideally, you want long reach, and hope that they don't have Freedom of Movement. Otherwise, find some way to enchant your tentacles so that there's an AMF projected from their tips.

Oh yes, an (Half-)Illithid(Body Tamer) works just fine in an AMF. I can still eat your brains!:smallamused:

Somebody should really give the Mage Slayer Feats/Prestige Class the ability to project an AMF (Constitution mod) times a day(with radius determined by your HD). Being able to project an AMF in a 200' wide sphere around yourself, now that is a real Mage Slayer.:smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2011-01-21, 09:56 PM
You know, It's always bothered me that Constructs and Undead still work in an AMF. Elementals, Abberations? Sure. But Constructs and Undead really ought to fall over like a sad sack of bones/metal.


I suppose it's to stop cheese kills, but still.

The official explanation is that they are magically created but not magically sustained. In order the causes are soul of an earth elemental, raw power of unlife, raw power of the element itself, it's an alien from a far off dimension. i.e., what's so special about your living soul animating all 4 elements from this dimension? Though ya it does stink of "supernatural but not supernatural" or maybe "magic but not magic".

Ranger Mattos
2011-01-21, 10:22 PM
I find it's fun to acquire an item of AMF (either command word or x/day), and then spend all your WBL on non-magical improvements, like special materials, tomes with inherent bonuses, and constructs (greater stone golem is 196,000 gp). Add ToB initiators for extra fun.

Ytaker
2011-01-21, 10:32 PM
The prohibition of antimagic working on negative energy is a little inconsistent.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Drain,_Negative_Levels,_and_Level_Loss# Energy_Drain_.28Su.29

Energy drain is a supernatural ability, and is suppressed in an antimagic field. Why should it be, if undead can be powered by energy drain and still fight?

Endarire
2011-01-22, 02:24 AM
Anti-Antimagic (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104.0).

Now that Sevenfold Veil Initiate with his Indigo Veil can go melee as his Very Magical Form while almost everyone else is stuck with nonmagical stuff.