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View Full Version : Item creation and dungeon economy: Qs for 3.5 DMs



Edhelras
2011-01-21, 05:13 AM
I have some problems with the rules concerning item creation and aspects of dungeon economy, and would like to hear how DMs handle these in their games. The queries are separated into three posts for simplicity.

Edhelras
2011-01-21, 05:15 AM
1. Scribing scrolls. The party wizard is adept at using the Web spell for area control, and many-a-time he has saved the party’s butt by the timely use of this spell. He would like to scribe a Web scroll to have one or two as a back-up, in case his memorized one fizzles or maybe he needs a second usage of it in one encounter/day.

However, scribing a scroll takes 1 day per each 1000 Gp in its base price. The base price of a Web scroll at the lowest level (CL 3rd) is 2 (spell lvl) x 3 (lowest CL needed) x 25 Gp = 150 Gp. So even though scribing the CL3 Web scroll costs only 150 Gp in base price (that is, 6 Xp and 75 Gp for the wizard), he spends as much time as if he was scribing a CL10 Fireball (10d6 damage and a range of 800 ft), which requires 3 (spell lvl) x 10 (CL) x 25 Gp = 750 Gp. Actually he could with the same time consumed create a Black Tentacles spell at CL10, which covers the same 20 ft. spread as the Web, lasts 10 rounds, has a grapple attack bonus of 10 and a grapple check modifier of 18, dealing 1d6+4 damage to all creatures caught.

So, even though a CL 3 Web spell can come in pretty handy for the party, it seems illogical to me that it should take as much time to create as those much more damaging spells I mentioned.

Moreover, the time requirement is a major hazzle when trying to keep the adventure flowing. Staying put for an entire day for scroll scribing means that I have to find something for the other party members to do, that’s both fun and realistic to the situation. Frequently, conjuring a side quest for the non-scribing PCs would result in either social or combat Xp for them, thus making the wizard trailing even further behind in Xp. It can also create trouble with the plotline, the actions of opposing forces etc.

The result of this is that I rarely find the time to allow scribers scribe their scroll, thus making this ability less useful that it could be. How do you handle this in your games? Do you have any useful house rules that I can copy, that aren’t unbalancing the game?

I would suggest two solutions:
1. Simply reducing the time required to scribe a low-lvl low-CL scroll proportionately, into fractions of a day.
2. Allowing ”rushed” scribe attempts, for instance using a Spellcraft check. The DCs and time spared I haven’t figured out yet. I would prefer method 1 for sake of simplicity.

Comments?

Edhelras
2011-01-21, 05:17 AM
2. Potion brewing. I have a problem with the Xp cost for brewing potions and other consumable magic items, when it comes to explaining the relative abundance of these items all over Faerun.

Even though the Xp cost of creating one potion is relatively low, over time it seems to me the Xp drain would cause a real problem for NPCs dedicated to potion brewing. A CL1 Cure light wounds costs 2 Xp, a CL3 Bull’s STR costs 12 Xp, and a CL5 Remove disease costs 30 Xp. How do temple staff and other potion vendors keep churning out these potions, also considering the time requirement (they can make no more than one potion a day, unless they have feats that speed up production).

How do the NPCs earn the Xp to resupplement what they lose from potion brewing? I realize that hunting down even a few rats, kobolds or golbins might earn the NPC valuable Xp. But adventuring to earn Xp takes time, and also carries the risk of either a dangerous random encounter, or even low-lvl prey may be lucky and cause you great harm. Moreover, many of the trade wizards and temple staff are adapted towards a peaceful way of life, often concentrating on buffing or curative spells rather than offensive ones.

My suggestion would be to either further reduce, or to remove altogether the Xp cost for consumable magic items – at least low-level ones. Potions, which can at most carry 3rd lvl spells, are a natural example. The time consumed and gold expended should alone be sufficient to prevent abuse from greedy NPCs.
This could also include wand creation, although I’m less sure about it since these items have multiple, but not unlimited, uses.

Comments?

Edhelras
2011-01-21, 05:19 AM
3. Traps. I find it hard to understand the high costs and Craft: trapmaking DCs related to even simple, everyday traps. How can the common humanoid tribes afford or accomplish to make even the simplest traps to protect their lairs?

Craft:trapmaking DCs range from 20 to 30, with additional +5 or +10 if you want proximity triggers and/or automatic reset. Even if the tribe has access to a dedicated trapmaker, say with a Skill focus: Craft:trapmaking and maxed out Craft skills and even an extra point in INT, his maximum Craft:trapmaking skill modifier will be 8 for a lvl 1 Expert, 10 for a lvl 3 Expert and so on. The lvl 3 Expert would probably have masterwork tools to get a Craft:trapmaking modifier of 10. It seems to me that creating even the simplest of traps would be quite a challenge for the typical NPC tribe.

More problematic is the Gp cost of traps. For instance the CR1 traps Basic Arrow Trap (Market price: 2000) and Camouflaged Pit Trap (market price: 1800) are both single-target, manual reset traps that deal 1d6 damage (provided that either the attack roll at +10 hits, or that the intruder doesn’t make his DC20 Reflex save to fall into the pit). Why would the kobold tribe spend 1800-2000 Gp on a trap that can target only one intruder once and dealing only 1d6 damage? Of course they could use a poison arrow or dig a deeper pit with smoother walls, but that would increase the cost even further.

It seems to me that the sheer Gp cost of building these simple traps is so high that I cannot understand why the creatures would bother. An ambush would be more worth-while. Moreover, it seems implausable to me that these traps can be so expensive to make (digging a pit and covering it?) compared to what you get for a similar amount of Gp. For instance, if you could choose between a +1 Longsword (2315 Gp) or a trap that deals 1d6 damage and has to be reset each time – what would you pick?

So, when you’re designing your dungeons, how do you handle this? Reducing Gp requirements, or simply ignoring the issue altogether?

Saph
2011-01-21, 05:21 AM
The result of this is that I rarely find the time to allow scribers scribe their scroll, thus making this ability less useful that it could be. How do you handle this in your games? Do you have any useful house rules that I can copy, that aren’t unbalancing the game?

First point to note: You can have multiple spells on one scroll (check the DMG). So the wizard can put 6 Web spells on that scroll for a total item value of 900 GP, in one day.

Remember that item creation is very powerful in 3.5. A PC's wealth by level is a big part of their power, so creating items should have some kind of drawback. Often the time requirement on making items is the only limitation that matters. However, at low levels this isn't so big a deal, so if it's a problem I'd go with solution 1: reduce the time proportionately, so that it takes (cost/1000) x 8 hours to make an item. (I'd keep the one-item-per-day limit, though).

Edhelras
2011-01-21, 05:24 AM
First point to note: You can have multiple spells on one scroll (check the DMG). So the wizard can put 6 Web spells on that scroll for a total item value of 900 GP, in one day.
...
However, at low levels this isn't so big a deal, so if it's a problem I'd go with solution 1: reduce the time proportionately, so that it takes (cost/1000) x 8 hours to make an item. (I'd keep the one-item-per-day limit, though).

All right, good point there, I didn't think about that, actually. Still hard for a wizard to prepare 6 Web spells for one day, though. So I would still go for solution 1 then, to allow the Wiz to make some use of himself beside making a scroll with say 3 Webs.

Saph
2011-01-21, 05:29 AM
How do the NPCs earn the Xp to resupplement what they lose from potion brewing? I realize that hunting down even a few rats, kobolds or golbins might earn the NPC valuable Xp. But adventuring to earn Xp takes time, and also carries the risk of either a dangerous random encounter, or even low-lvl prey may be lucky and cause you great harm. Moreover, many of the trade wizards and temple staff are adapted towards a peaceful way of life, often concentrating on buffing or curative spells rather than offensive ones.

Roleplaying experience would seem to be the best answer. Maybe they get a small XP bonus from following their career path or giving adventurers quest hooks. :)

In all seriousness, this is one of those things that the designers never really thought out fully. It's ironic that the best way to make a crafting spellcaster in 3.5 is to have them be an adventurer - that way you get a steady stream of XP to make up for what you lose. If it's a problem, you could switch to the Pathfinder system of item creation (which includes a Spellcraft check, rules for bypassing prerequisites, and removes XP costs.)

Re potions in general: They're overpriced. Level 1 potions are useful, but beyond that I rarely use them. However, they're one of the only ways for non-casters to get easy access to spells, so they'll always have a niche.

Re traps: The DMG rules for trap pricing are horrible. Ignore them. Yeah, I've got nothing positive to say about the rules here. :)

LansXero
2011-01-21, 05:31 AM
Wasnt there an item that wrote the scrolls for you? Something like a magic scribing quill I think? Other than that, as long as you keep the 1/day restriction, the most sensible solution seems to be to use a proportional fraction of the day according to the actual low level cost.

Godskook
2011-01-21, 05:43 AM
2. Allowing ”rushed” scribe attempts, for instance using a Spellcraft check. The DCs and time spared I haven’t figured out yet. I would prefer method 1 for sake of simplicity.

Here's my suggestion:

Step 1: Spellcraft is now Craft(spell)

Step 2: Magic items may now be crafted in silver per hour or gold per day, in the same way that normal items are crafted in silver per week or copper per day. Use these numbers only if better than current rules. DCs are 10+2*spell level. You can not 'take 10'.

Result: A level 1 wizard could theoretically make a scroll in an hour, but it comes at a risk typically, since a DC 12 check isn't a sure thing. By level 5 though, he's making it on a natural 1.

If you think this overpowers item creation in general, you can limit it to certain types of items, like scrolls, or 'consumables'.

Kaww
2011-01-21, 05:46 AM
Wasnt there an item that wrote the scrolls for you? Something like a magic scribing quill I think? Other than that, as long as you keep the 1/day restriction, the most sensible solution seems to be to use a proportional fraction of the day according to the actual low level cost.

Quill of scribing 1,750 gp

Complete Mage

Edhelras
2011-01-21, 06:11 AM
Quill of scribing 1,750 gp

Complete Mage

Now I remember having heard about that one, yeah. It could be a problem-solver. Although it would be beyond the reach of the PCs I was most concerned with; the low- and mid-lvl ones, who could have trouble affording such a costly item. BTW, do you remember if it's able to scribe on its own? Can you leave it at the inn or in your camp while you go goblin-killing?

As for the "RP reward for creators" I really think that makes sense. That's why, in a way, I think it's a bit strange that item creation comes at an Xp cost. You might just as well think that performing the great act of creating a magic item should award you Xp, not drain it.
Thinking about Bruenor's forging of the warhammer for Wulfgar: Surely it was draining on him, but it was a process through which he was developed as a character and a craftsman, it was the type of achievement that would be expected to forward him in his life story and powers.

Glad to hear others are frustrated by the craftmaking rules. It may not be a big deal since noone's really keeping track of the NPCs economics, but I like it to be a degree of consistence and believability (within the confines of the fantastical DnD universe, that is) to my game world.

Kaww
2011-01-21, 06:20 AM
It works on it's own, best used while you are sleeping, since it can't get too far away from you, I think...

You can easily reduce the price by 37%, and if you have a crafter in the party it's really cheap and made in a day. (1750gp*31.5%)

Necroticplague
2011-01-21, 12:37 PM
Also, on the wizards website, their was some series of clockwork objects, one of which was an autoscriber, increased XP cost, could only learn to make a few different scrolls, decreased time.

Corronchilejano
2011-01-21, 01:01 PM
Scribe Scroll
I handle it with fractions. Anyone with the feat can create a "scroll roll" which is a VERY long scroll in which they can scribe a single spell as many times as they want. In their downtime, they scribe as many spells as time would allow (no more than 1000gp worth of scroll) per day, and use it in battle as a move action to take out and a standard to read. Money can be spent on a magical scroll that magically sticks to another scroll that has the same spell as written on the new one, so he only needs one roll per spell.

For instance, a level 2 cleric takes a full day to write 20 cure light wound spells on a spell roll (for a total of 12.5gp x 20 = 500gp). He uses 7 next day, and at night he has a couple of hours to spare. 2 hours is 1/4 of 8 hours, so he can write 250gp worth of cure light wounds at caster level 1, just adding the spells to the scroll he already has. Now his spell scroll has 20 - 7 + 5 = 18 cure light wounds scribbled in them. All he needs is to have materials handy to write at any moment (which can be bought in advance in towns or obtained from certain magical creatures), and he's set.

Brew Potion and the Xp issue
Brew potion works exactly as scribe scroll fraction wise. That is, as long as you're brewing something for less than 1000gp, you can take the fraction of the time from 8 hours. However, for the Xp, I house ruled that it's not necesary for the "caster" to spend it, but rather he can use other creatures and use their life force. That's how casters can use adventurers, animals, or whatever to obtain Xp from them, example:

A potion brewer in a BIG city and with good morals wants to make some potions. He obtains a license from the king and can now ask soldiers that go frequently to battle to lend him energy to brew his thing. Since there's so many soldiers, a couple of Xp here and there never hurts.

Another potion brewer in a smaller and off the way town wants to make potions. Since he doesnt' have adventurers readily accesible, he pays for the energy he needs from traveling adventurers, at a rate of 5gp per xp point. Obviously, this price is trasnfered towards the PCs, which now wonder why magic items in far away towns are more costly.

Another potion brewer, in a savage land has no qualms in obtaining his energy from animals, so he just sacrifices animals to obtain energy from them. In this case, I rule that every animal provides Xp based on his CRm so higher CR monsters provide more energy. Killing creatures for this purpose however disipates most of its Xp, so he only receives 1/10 of what he would usually receive from it, so a Donkey gives him 1/60 of 300 = 5xp. This only applies to creatures killed with no danger whatsoever for the magic item creator, creatures which would yield him no Xp.

That's why some people also pay hefty prices for captured monsters in my campaings.

PS: Also, remember that if your character is making 20-30 scrolls of a single spell... that's what WANDS are for.

Kaww
2011-01-21, 01:12 PM
I was under the impression that writing a scroll requires you to cast it on the scroll? At least that's how we play it...

Corronchilejano
2011-01-21, 01:21 PM
I was under the impression that writing a scroll requires you to cast it on the scroll? At least that's how we play it...

True, but I take a scroll with many spells (hence, only THAT spell repeated many times) as a single magic item.

Again, that's why I stated that's how I handled it. Otherwise, scribe scroll genuinely becomes better than craft wand.

Edhelras
2011-01-21, 06:09 PM
Corronchilejano - your take on this is truly innovative! But... I do think there ought to be some kind of limit to spells recorded per day. Your example with writing 20 CLW spells on a scroll, that would cause inflation wouldn't it, even if the deity would actually allow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html) the caster that much healing in a case of no-emergency.

But now I start wondering - is there a 1/day limit to spells scribed on scrolls, or does that only apply to potions?

Corronchilejano
2011-01-22, 01:11 AM
Corronchilejano - your take on this is truly innovative! But... I do think there ought to be some kind of limit to spells recorded per day. Your example with writing 20 CLW spells on a scroll, that would cause inflation wouldn't it

Considering the price? It's not worth it, but you're free to spend all your greenies on it. Again, crafting a wand is a better option, but this helps for those spells that are generally usefull.


But now I start wondering - is there a 1/day limit to spells scribed on scrolls, or does that only apply to potions?
RAW, as long as its 1000gp or less and you can spend 1 spell per spell on scroll, you're good to go.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-22, 02:14 AM
I also always go with the "another person can contribute the XP to the guy with the feat." After all, we've already shown that another person can contribute spells for the purpose of the feat, so why not?

As for NPCs with it, IIRC, NPCs don't actually use the experience-point system. I realize that's a bit of a cop-out, but still...

One houserule I'd been kicking around in my head was suggesting that after you get to a certain level, creating certain magic items would just plain not cost you XP anymore. For instance, the aforementioned potions of Cure Light Wounds and such shouldn't really be a problem for a 10th-level character to whip up, so why should it? Now, since this houserule hasn't seen any use, I don't know how well it would fly...

A semi-related tangent: one houserule I ended up trying was granting XP for certain good out-of-game behavior. The XP could only be used for item creation (though remember, anyone with XP can contribute to item creation in my games), but it solved two issues: the PCs could now make magic items without having to sock away the points they would normally level with, and it got the players bringing books, snacks, extra dice, and other things that made the game more convenient.

And I've gotta agree with the concensus about the standards for pricing traps: the DMG is stupid-wrong about 'em.

Endarire
2011-01-22, 02:19 AM
1
I rule you can make 1000G of items per 8 hours. The amount of time spent is proportionate to the cost.

For example, a 150G item requires 150/1000 requires 1.2 hours (72 minutes) to make.

2
Consumables, potions especially, are too expensive. For the price of 2.5 cure light wounds potions, I can get a cure light wounds wand with 50 charges!

3
Traps just are. No one makes them.

Ionizer
2011-01-22, 03:21 AM
Remember that using the Craft Skill, you only need to spend 1/3 of the market price in raw materials. Not to mention, that you can push down the price of traps by making them easier to find and/or disable. You can theoretically have a trap that costs just 33 gold (and some change) to create. Perhaps the traps are easy to spot, but not easy to get around. If an intruder decides not to risk springing the obvious trap and leaves your lair alone, that's just as good as if your trap had killed him.

For example, a trap with a Search DC of 15 (-500 market price and -1 CR), a Disable Device DC of 20 (+0), manual reset (+0) and a location trigger (+0) that shoots 4 arrows at a single target with an Attack bonus of +10 (+0) each for 1d6 damage per arrow (14 average damage, +2 CR) is a CR 1 trap that costs 500 gp, or 166.6...7 gp to craft. Even if someone finds the trap, possibly getting shot with 4 arrows is still a nice deterrent, and it can be reset as often as needed. As a 1-time investment for defense, that's not bad. That same trap could be just 33 gold (and change) to create if it broke itself (No Reset = -500 market price, but market price can't go below 100gp *CR) after it's first use (for example, if it was in a location not likely to be used by intruders often).

And as for the Craft DCs, well, there's no limit to the amount of people who can Aid Another to add +2 to the main Trap Maker's check.

Edhelras
2011-01-22, 05:58 AM
Hm. I'm kind of intrigued by your calculations, there. Maybe I was too focused on the traps listed in the DMG? But still I'd like to try this out in practice, so far I haven't been using traps very much, mostly because I found it hard to justify in low-lvl settings.
I still feel the cost is somewhat prohibitive, though, compared to the low effectiveness/lethality of the traps. Wouldn't you agree that compared to the dangerous traps of fantasy literature and adventure tropes, the traps in the DMG are somewhat weak?
BTW that goes for poisons as well, I think. They generally seem to be less deadly than I envision poisons to be. Mostly the CON damage poisons can kill you, but usually required that you roll high damage and perhaps that you have a low CON from the start.

Gnoman
2011-01-22, 06:19 AM
3.5 poisons are really powerful, especially against living thingsPCs. Depending on your class, 1d4 CON damage can take 1/8 to 1/4 of your max HP in a single attack. Any PC dependant on heavy armor or lots of other gear can easily be immobilized by STR damage. A caster? That INT/WIS/CHA poison just robbed you of your highest level spell slots. Like dodging attacks? Too bad your AC plummeted because you failed your fort save gainst that DEX poison.

FelixG
2011-01-22, 06:28 AM
Well, I would note that Pathfinder removed the XP cost from crafting items, so you could too without any real issue and fits things more in line with how the world seems to work for everyone but the PCs.

Also the Fade to Black effect works really well for 1-2 day item creation times. "You all have been fighting hard for a long while, you are given room and all the drink you can partake of for saving the village, the festival lasts several days of marry making."

Lets you pass a few days, if need be. Heck, a 40 hour a week job where you dont risk your life gives you 2 days off each week (normally) so adventurers should take some days off here and there! :smallbiggrin:

SillySymphonies
2011-01-22, 09:20 AM
1) Scribe scroll time requirement: just have some 'downtime' in which the rest of the party recuperates and the wizard scribes his scroll. Not every ingame day needs to be played out.
2) NPC xp economy: it's a bit of a cop-out, but it's best to assume xp-rules as presented in the PHB apply to PCs only.