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Myth
2011-01-21, 09:53 AM
This is a simple thought exercise. What is:

- The highest Spellcraft check attainable by a single character at ECL21?
- The highest Spellcraft check that works RAI and that could be passed by any sane DM, also ECL21? (Feats, Items, Int bonuses, class abilites etc.)

Bonus: what shennaingans and legitimate ways do you use or know of to mitigate Epic spell Spellcraft DCs?

I need this information to gauge how/if my players are cheesing it up too much in a forthcoming Epic game. Or two.

fractal_uk
2011-01-21, 10:23 AM
If you're going to optimise epic spellcasting, then optimising your spellcraft modifier is unimportant. You should never make an epic spell with a spellcasting DC higher than 1, it's horrendously inefficient to do so when you can mitigate down the DC so easily.

The easiest ways to do that are generally to get help, if other people can provide spell slots then you're set.

You can use, for example, the Shadow (I think that's what it's called) seed from Lost Empires of Faerun to create duplicates of yourself with all of your spellcasting abilities.

They key is building up slowly. You can use simulacra (and the rest of the party) to power up weaker epic spells before moving on to progressively better and more Shadow Seed epic spells.

Once you have a few dozen duplicates of yourself, you're laughing.

The epic spells should be long duration buffs designed to make you virtually unstoppable, rather than combat spells as those are too hard to mitigate down. Plus you can do more than enough in combat with metamagic enhanced non-epic spells.

Bear in mind that going this route means that your stats quickly become an iterative process whereby your character's power is proportional to the amount of downtime you have to prepare. Epic spells are horrendously abusable and the power level can only really be controlled by some significant house-ruling or by everyone deciding where they want to place the limits in the given game.

I once played in a fairly standard epic rules game and it was an interesting experience for a one off but I wouldn't want to do it again in a hurry.

Myth
2011-01-21, 10:28 AM
Heh I know that but thank you for the reply. I will be handing already researched Epic spells done via consulting my players to achieve what they want within reason.

Reducing costs via donated slots is great but they'll have to use NPCs or party members. No gated Solars, no Simulacrums and the likes. Using Magic to power more powerful Magic is like using a fan to blow wind so it can turn a windmill. So I will stay on top of this as a DM.

fractal_uk
2011-01-21, 10:43 AM
Heh I know that but thank you for the reply. I will be handing already researched Epic spells done via consulting my players to achieve what they want within reason.

Reducing costs via donated slots is great but they'll have to use NPCs or party members. No gated Solars, no Simulacrums and the likes. Using Magic to power more powerful Magic is like using a fan to blow wind so it can turn a windmill. So I will stay on top of this as a DM.

In that case, what are your thoughts on the magic item rules in the DMG for players to create their own items? I believe that skill bonuses are priced at bonus squared* 100gp. A +50 spellcraft item is very easily affordable by people of that level if they're really going all out for it.

To answer at least half of your original question, I'd probably place the typical region a Sane DM would let you have at somewhere between 40-50. That's probably where I'd place the limit if a high spellcraft was actually going to be a significant advantage. The 20th level Psion i'm playing at the moment has +39 (23 ranks +14 int +2 synergy, I don't really need a huge psicraft all that much) while our wizard is a short way ahead on around +45.

Corronchilejano
2011-01-21, 10:50 AM
In that case, what are your thoughts on the magic item rules in the DMG for players to create their own items? I believe that skill bonuses are priced at bonus squared* 100gp. A +50 spellcraft item is very easily affordable by people of that level if they're really going all out for it.

To answer at least half of your original question, I'd probably place the typical region a Sane DM would let you have at somewhere between 40-50. That's probably where I'd place the limit if a high spellcraft was actually going to be a significant advantage. The 20th level Psion i'm playing at the moment has +39 (23 ranks +14 int +2 synergy, I don't really need a huge psicraft all that much) while our wizard is a short way ahead on around +45.

A +50 magic item would be epic (anything over +30 skill is epic) and this would be 2500 * 1000 = 2.500.00 gp. Not as affordable as 250.000gp.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-21, 11:01 AM
A +50 magic item would be epic (anything over +30 skill is epic) and this would be 2500 * 1000 = 2.500.00 gp. Not as affordable as 250.000gp.
You know, you either forgot a zero or those are exactly the same number. 2.500.00 isn't really a number, but 250.000 is.

Corronchilejano
2011-01-21, 11:07 AM
You know, you either forgot a zero or those are exactly the same number. 2.500.00 isn't really a number, but 250.000 is.

Sorry, this keyboard has a problem with the numeric part. 2.5 Million gp is what I meant.

Myth
2011-01-21, 11:22 AM
Ok let's do some math:

24 base ranks at CLVL 21.

20 starting int (best you can have at ECL0) + 5 from tome + 5 from levels + 6 from Circlet = 36 int, or a +13 bonus

+2 from Regional feat or 2/2 feat. I believe there are several different feats that grant bonuses to Spellcraft but are not worth it unless granted for free (Regional)

+3 from SKill Focus: Spellcraft (needed for AM)

+30 from custom Goggles of whatever.

+20 from whatever that Cleric spell was that granted a bonus. question can that spell be made permanent or persisted?

So far: +92 obtained in absolutely RAW/RAI way. Invested: Int (not really), Regional feat (free), SF: Spellcraft (bad, but requried for Archmage so jstyfiable in some builds), 90,000 gp for an item, a casting of Limited Wish to get the Cleric spell. < might not work if it's a single discharge only.

Corronchilejano
2011-01-21, 11:33 AM
+20 from whatever that Cleric spell was that granted a bonus. question can that spell be made permanent or persisted?

What spell is that? Because if it gives an enhancement bonus, it doesn't stack with the item.

Toliudar
2011-01-21, 11:40 AM
Well, I suppose you could start to invent different kinds of bonuses that an item could apply. Most items apply a competence bonus to skills, but you could also apply a circumstance bonus, an insight bonus...at +30 each, this can get out of hand very quickly.

Edit: the cleric spell you're talking about is probably Divine Insight, which gives an insight bonus to one skill check, but which also caps at +15.

Keld Denar
2011-01-21, 11:43 AM
Guidance of the Avatar, its an Insight bonus. Its on the wizards website. You could also get at least +15 Insight bonus from Divine Insight, borrowed from a divine caster via IWIN Stone of Spellstoring.

Also...needs more Item Familiar...if you're trying to get the highest bonus possible, doubling your ranks is epic! +48 before you start adding stats and other bonuses.

Corronchilejano
2011-01-21, 11:43 AM
Well, I suppose you could start to invent different kinds of bonuses that an item could apply. Most items apply a competence bonus to skills, but you could also apply a circumstance bonus, an insight bonus...at +30 each, this can get out of hand very quickly.

Price-wise? Totally. Since other bonuses are 2000gp times squared bonus and aren't listed for skills, so there's no telling what the limit for them is... but even if it +30, a +30 luck based item would be 1.800.000gp. Not something I'd call cheap.

PS: I made a mistake with the item bonus. It's competence, not enhancement.

Myth
2011-01-21, 11:56 AM
Guidance of the Avatar, its an Insight bonus. Its on the wizards website. You could also get at least +15 Insight bonus from Divine Insight, borrowed from a divine caster via IWIN Stone of Spellstoring.

Also...needs more Item Familiar...if you're trying to get the highest bonus possible, doubling your ranks is epic! +48 before you start adding stats and other bonuses.

Blast these Item Familiars! I see them all the friggin time and I've never gotten around to actually reading up on them. Where doth they resideth?

Necroticplague
2011-01-21, 12:25 PM
I don't know the original book (although i'll bet it's unearthed arcana), but I found this link about them (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)

gbprime
2011-01-21, 01:24 PM
I'm a big fan of making sure that one of your underlings is a Marshall, then giving him a CHA boost item. Motivate Intelligence will give the Marshall's CHA modifier as a circumstance bonus on all INT based checks, and Determined Caster will do the same thing for rolls to overcome SR. (then there's the ever-popular Motivate Charisma and using this underling as your voice in anything requiring diplomacy...)

That's good for another +8 or so.

fractal_uk
2011-01-21, 01:36 PM
What about starting the chain with something like this:



Supreme Intelligence
Transmutation
Cost to develop: 9000
XP to Develop: 360
Spellcraft DC: 1 (17 base, +4 triple duration, +54 additional 27 int, -20 increase casting time by 10 minutes, -2 personal effect, -51 Three 9th level spells, -1 One first level spell)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: 60 hours;
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The spellcaster gains a +28 enhancement bonus to Intelligence.


Let's assume a party of four or five spellcasters, each with their own version of this spell (It doesn't have to be for a wizard but let's assume that at least a few are, since it's convenient to be a wizard and have your primary casting stat boost up your spellcraft).

Three 9th level spells and a first level spell are required to power it up but once cast it lasts for two and a half days.

Assuming all the spellcasters in the party do something similar, they effectively get another 22 INT (once you factor in the +6 enhancement bonus that will overlap). For that price, they get the useful +11 to spellcraft checks which makes more powerful epic spells possible to develop; more crucially however, they gain 22/8 = 2.75 spells of every level they can cast.

Just the additional 9th level spells pay for an additional two epic spells of a similar design to be cast per day.

This method is less quadratic in buildup than the duplicate method but still has the potential to quickly enhance party capabilities.

***

Some other points:

I think the spellcraft DC needs to be made to actually cast the epic spell (it doesn't seem to state that you need to meet the DC to develop it), that means things like Divine Insight should be feasible to use. You keep them up and ready to use before you cast the spell, ready to gain the maximum +15 bonus.

Moment of Prescience is also an option, it's fairly easy to get up to the maximum +25 bonus there by boosting your caster level a little.

There is also a 1st level Bard spell called Improvisation (Spell Compendium) that gives you a pool of points you can assign to various things including skill checks. You get two points per caster level.

Assuming you managed caster level 25, that's +50 you can add to a single spellcraft check if you really need to. Also, it's a luck bonus so it stacks with most of the other bonuses mentioned.

gbprime
2011-01-21, 01:44 PM
Moment of Prescience is also an option, it's fairly easy to get up to the maximum +25 bonus there by boosting your caster level a little.

Moment of Prescience has to be an attack roll, saving throw or OPPOSED check. We're not talking about opposed checks here.


There is also a 1st level Bard spell called Improvisation (Spell Compendium) that gives you a pool of points you can assign to various things including skill checks. You get two points per caster level.

Assuming you managed caster level 25, that's +50 you can add to a single spellcraft check if you really need to. Also, it's a luck bonus so it stacks with most of the other bonuses mentioned.

The spell specifies that you cannot use more than 1/2 your caster level for any single roll. So that 25th level bard could only hand you a +12 (but four of them), not a +50. Plus... it's range is personal. So you'd have to pull some fu to use it if you're not a bard yourself.

gbprime
2011-01-21, 01:57 PM
Oh, almost forgot, you could burn a Limited Wish to make sure your roll on the skill check is a '20'.

Corronchilejano
2011-01-21, 01:58 PM
Oh, almost forgot, you could burn a Limited Wish to make sure your roll on the skill check is a '20'.

Back in 3.0, it was awesome with the Warrior wielding a Blessed Sure Striking Mercurial Greatsword.

Welknair
2011-01-21, 02:13 PM
Spell Familiars can be found in Unearthed Arcana. (Great book)

It would take a feat, but would allow you to get additional bonuses on Spellcraft (and other chosen skills) as well as a bonus spell slot, which is never bad. Only problem is you lose a bunch of XP if you lose said item.

NichG
2011-01-21, 03:15 PM
So with all that has been posted, the best I can figure without going too nuts is a final check result of around 160-170 (variability depends on the availability of an optimized follower). It requires being a Ruby Knight Vindicator to get enough swift actions to discharge a series of spells (divine insight, surge of fortune, and improvisation, which all require swift actions to activate), and being buddies with a kitted out Marshal (preferably of a race that gives a good Cha boost). It also requires a caster level 24 Miracle (to cast Improvisation) and that you spend your single epic feat on epic skill focus.

Of course, there are ways to get it arbitrarily high using Masochism and Indomitability or something along those lines. Using Masochism alone you might get another +10 or +20 out of it without throwing off too many warning signals.

Of course, a lot of this doesn't work for an extended check like spell research.

Toliudar
2011-01-21, 04:02 PM
Price-wise? Totally. Since other bonuses are 2000gp times squared bonus and aren't listed for skills, so there's no telling what the limit for them is... but even if it +30, a +30 luck based item would be 1.800.000gp. Not something I'd call cheap.

The magic item guidelines suggest that, in other areas, a non-standard form of bonus (armour for AC, enhancement for saves, etc) costs about twice as much. I don't think it's too much of stretch to suggest that, if a competence bonus to saves costs 100gp x bonus squared, that a different type of would be 200gp x bonus squared.

gbprime
2011-01-21, 04:18 PM
I don't think it's too much of stretch to suggest that, if a competence bonus to saves costs 100gp x bonus squared, that a different type of would be 200gp x bonus squared.

Except that gets abusive quickly. Imagine the caster (or.. shudder... artificer) who can crank out +4 stat enhancement items for everyone, followed by +4 luck items, +4 sacred items, +4 competence items...

Toliudar
2011-01-21, 05:03 PM
Which is why the magic item creation guidelines are guidelines. Since the first sentence of this thread was "This is a simple thought exercise", theory seemed fine to me. And once we're into the realm of epic spells, we need to move the goal posts back a bit just to make this the same game.

ericgrau
2011-01-21, 08:23 PM
24 ranks + ~11 int + ~15 feats (2 pre-epic, 1 epic) + 10 epic magic item + ~4 (2?) synergy = 64 off the top of my head. So around 65 should at least be a nice ballpark figure. Beware of custom magic items, which are supposed to have DM approval anyway, adding another +15 or +30 or so. Not to mention stacking with and being literally 20 times cheaper than the epic magic item that only works on epic spells.

EDIT: Yeup, lot of posts with custom magic items. Remember these are guidelines not rules, and new items should be on par with existing ones. Why exactly do they have a listed 200k, less versatile +10 item if they expect players to also buy an unlisted +45 item for the same price?

gbprime
2011-01-21, 08:35 PM
Which is why I listed the Marshall trick. When you're 21st level, having a 5th level non-caster working for you is pretty much a "yes" from your DM. (Though you might want him a BIT higher level if you plan to bring him anywhere near a fight...)

fractal_uk
2011-01-21, 09:06 PM
Plus... it's range is personal. So you'd have to pull some fu to use it if you're not a bard yourself.

Limited Wish makes it pretty easy to get as a wizard. For the clerics, Miracle is almost more useful for replicating spells because though higher level, it doesn't cost xp to pull off. Not that Limited Wish xp is going to be significant compared to the gain from an epic combat anyway.

Godskook
2011-01-21, 09:25 PM
Limited Wish makes it pretty easy to get as a wizard. For the clerics, Miracle is almost more useful for replicating spells because though higher level, it doesn't cost xp to pull off. Not that Limited Wish xp is going to be significant compared to the gain from an epic combat anyway.

And let's not forget that archivists just plain win at this, what with having access to divine bard spells and to cleric domain spells such as Anyspell and Greater Anyspell.

Alleran
2011-01-21, 10:12 PM
I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but you can pile on a 20,000 XP hit to your epic spell with mitigation and then use the Supernatural Spell ability of the Dweomerkeeper to completely nullify that XP cost (since the spell is turned into a (Su) and thus there won't be an XP cost involved). It's a bit limited, though, in that you need to give it a casting time of a standard action, so increasing casting time for extra mitigation won't work.

gbprime
2011-01-21, 10:40 PM
Elf Generalist Domain Wizard Dweomerkeeper with Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos... dieties come to him and say "please" when they want something. :smallamused:

fractal_uk
2011-01-22, 04:46 PM
I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but you can pile on a 20,000 XP hit to your epic spell with mitigation and then use the Supernatural Spell ability of the Dweomerkeeper to completely nullify that XP cost (since the spell is turned into a (Su) and thus there won't be an XP cost involved). It's a bit limited, though, in that you need to give it a casting time of a standard action, so increasing casting time for extra mitigation won't work.

I don't know as there as any precedent for turning epic spells into supernatural abilities. Given that epic spellcasting functions quite differently from normal spellcasting I think it's very iffy as to whether it would work.

Even if you can cast the spell as a supernatural ability it's arguable as to whether XP mitigation is really an XP cost for the spell. Note that the mitigation doesn't say that you're adding an XP cost but that you "burn XP during casting."

I'd certainly argue it's against the RAI, given that backlash (damage) from epic spells specifically states that the damage cannot be avoided in any way.

gomipile
2011-01-22, 09:04 PM
Sorry, this keyboard has a problem with the numeric part. 2.5 Million gp is what I meant.

Except that 250,000 is the correct number in the first place.

50x50=2,500

2,500x100=250,000

A +160 to spellcraft item would cost 2,560,000 gold.

Alleran
2011-01-22, 09:10 PM
I don't know as there as any precedent for turning epic spells into supernatural abilities. Given that epic spellcasting functions quite differently from normal spellcasting I think it's very iffy as to whether it would work.
"Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise."

(Taken from the d20SRD.)

It's most certainly not RAI, but supernatural abilities don't use XP, and nothing is stated about epic spells being a specific override that I can see offhand, so by RAW it should work. Not that a DM would be likely to allow it.

Siosilvar
2011-01-22, 09:13 PM
Except that 250,000 is the correct number in the first place.

50x50=2,500

2,500x100=250,000

A +160 to spellcraft item would cost 2,560,000 gold.
Swing and a miss.


In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item. ... Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30. ... Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.

Market Price
Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.

gomipile
2011-01-22, 09:33 PM
Swing and a miss.

Ah. I forgot to look that up. Although, there was never a true 3.5 epic handbook, only an update document and the SRD so...

Myth
2011-01-24, 06:28 AM
So considering that most published Mythals have a DC of around 200-300 or so, it is entirely feasible for the prepared Wizard/Archivist/Cleric etc. to hit a DC of 200 reliably by level 21? Significant monetary investments are needed but nothing else really. I say chain gating and other shenanigans are not needed if you can just make your Spellcraft check.

Not to mention that you can cram complete immunity to most things in that DC.

NichG
2011-01-24, 02:41 PM
I'd say you would have to optimize pretty heavily and use some shady tricks to pull it off. If you have a view of the game that most people don't 'pick' their feats/abilities consciously and aren't aware of rules interactions then I'd say its extremely unlikely verging on impossible that a level 21 caster could pull off a DC 200 spellcraft check without using another epic spell designed specifically to help them with that check.

If on the other hand, you're dealing with people who are very optimized (because they're the particular set of people that made it to Lv21, because they can retrain until they get it right, because ...) then its still going to be difficult.

Once custom epic skill-boosting items and unlimited gold are introduced then sure, anyone can do it.

For mythals, especially given their history, I'd probably say that its the work of a cabal of 50 epic or near-epic mages collaborating on the research, using the resources of an entire nation. 49 aid anothers for a +98 to the check closes the gap nicely.

Myth
2011-01-25, 05:39 AM
That's because WOTC are about as good at using their own characters as a zombie is at playing the harpsichord.

Blackstaff had to sacrifice himself to complete a Mythal. A nobody CL21 Wizard can hit the required DC for that as is evident here.

It requires no shenanigans or questionable RAW interpretations. Just a cheap item (~90k gold), an Item Familiar (absolutely RAI legal), and the casting of several spells, all which can be replicated via Limited Wish. Everything else (buffining your Int score, taking a regional +2/2 feat etc.) is what any sane caster would do anyway.

Malachei
2011-01-25, 08:23 AM
I think Item Familiars are highly questionable :)

Douglas
2011-01-25, 10:20 AM
EDIT: Yeup, lot of posts with custom magic items. Remember these are guidelines not rules, and new items should be on par with existing ones. Why exactly do they have a listed 200k, less versatile +10 item if they expect players to also buy an unlisted +45 item for the same price?
If you are referring to the Epic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#epicSpellcaster) rod, the reason that item is so expensive is the type of the bonus, not its magnitude. Insight bonuses are unusual and therefore stack with almost everything. Getting that rod gets the same bonus as increasing a normal skill boosting item from +30 to +40 but costs a lot less.