Sorcerors and Wizards

[seraine]

I only have the core books and I'm working with a wizard or sorcerer(only core) build. I'm wondering whether a sorcerer or wizard is better. It seems like the main consensus is that wizards are better, but I'm wondering why.

If wizards get 2 new spells per level, a sorcerer would know more 2nd level spells, basically the same 3,4,and 5 spells known, and almost the same 6,7,8,and 9 spells known with more spells per day and able to cast any of them unless the wizard learns new spells from scrolls and such.

Is the wizard better because he can learn new spells and the bonus feats? Because it almost seems like sorcerers are better.

Also, what would be some pretty good(core only) optimization for a sorcerer or wizard?

[Tvtyrant]

Wizards can be better because they have the ability to cast spells that are only useful once in a blue moon and then swap them for more commonly useful spells the next day, while a Sorcerer is stuck with his choices until he levels.

Also, with School Specialization the amount of slots a Wizard can cast from goes up.

[Emperor Ing]

Be Wizard

Use only spells from the SRD list

Dominate the universe forever

In all seriousness though, Wizards get quicker spell progression than Sorcies (Sorcerers get their 9th level slots at 18th level, wizards get it at 17th level) and their Int as their casting stat means that it has to be high. High Int means more skills and bonus languages, but that's moot compared to the unlimited power you will have. In addition, Wizards get bonus feats.

[truemane]

What's been said are the reasons. Better primary casting stat, bonus Feats, the ability to know ALL the spells, in theory.

However, if you can get both in the same party, they synergize VERY well. You give the Sorc all the Heavy-duty spells that you can't do with out (Grease, Colour Spray, Haste, all that) and that frees the Wizard to represent a more varied array of utility spells that they could normally manage.

[Corronchilejano]

I only have the core books and I'm working with a wizard or sorcerer(only core) build. I'm wondering whether a sorcerer or wizard is better. It seems like the main consensus is that wizards are better, but I'm wondering why.

For Wizards:
- Wizards are always "one level ahead" regarding spell levels.
- Wizards can have spells for every occassion. Hell, they can potentially have every spell ever, so they can meet every challenge rather well.
- Wizards have more feats.
- Wizards primary stat (inteligence) is also good for having more skills (and those skills also benefit from high inteligence).
- Wizards have more knowledge skills that directly benefit what they know about things.
- A specialist wizard is only 1 spell slot away per level from the sorcerer's ammount of spells per day.

For Sorcerers:
- They can cast 2 more spells per day.
- They have bluff.
- They are better at social skills?

As you can see, Wizards aren't really that far away from sorcerers. Most sorcerers I've seen in play are blasters because spamming evocations is quite good, otherwise, the small ammount of spells they can learn really hurts. Wizards have a lot more variety and with new spells the wizard, if he doesn't like what he's doing, can pretty much change his emphasis every day.


If wizards get 2 new spells per level, a sorcerer would know more 2nd level spells, basically the same 3,4,and 5 spells known, and almost the same 6,7,8,and 9 spells known with more spells per day and able to cast any of them unless the wizard learns new spells from scrolls and such.

You can BUY those scrolls and pass them to their spellbook. Hell, investigating a new spells takes 2 weeks per spell level, and in downtime is pretty easy to do. At higher levels, money isn't an issue.


Also, what would be some pretty good(core only) optimization for a sorcerer or wizard?

Archmage probably. Although a Wizard can go fully to 20, there's no real reason not to become anything else with a Sorcerer. Maybe Eldritch Knight is a better option for a battle Sorcerer.

[DarthCyberWolf]

If wizards get 2 new spells per level, a sorcerer would know more 2nd level spells, basically the same 3,4,and 5 spells known, and almost the same 6,7,8,and 9 spells known with more spells per day and able to cast any of them unless the wizard learns new spells from scrolls and such.

Is the wizard better because he can learn new spells and the bonus feats? Because it almost seems like sorcerers are better.

Wizards can scribe scrolls from other spellbooks into their own for, I think, 100 gold per spell level. Defeat an evil wizard? Loot his spellbook and start copying. In a big city with a mage's guild or something? Could probably get access and start copying.

This is how wizard's end up with much more spell's known than sorcerer's.

[grimbold]

wizards are stronger but sorcerors are more fun and less book keeping

[Corronchilejano]

...but sorcerors are more fun and less book keeping

Why more fun?

Some people LIKE book keeping.

[hangedman1984]

- A specialist wizard is only 1 spell slot away per level from the sorcerer's ammount of spells per day.

And a focused specialist has the same number of spell slots as a sorc, actually more slots at some levels

[pinwiz]

Sorcerers only have access to whatever spells they choose as spells known, which is about 3-5. In making a sorcerer i always try to pick spells that are always going to be useful, no matter what, but that's hard.

Wizards on the other hand have the same amount of spells known in a day, but the next day they can change it. so if they run into a roadblock that can't overcome tuesday, they can just wait for wednesday and pick the spells to completely own that challenge.

[Volos]

I can't belive no one has mentioned this yet, but at higher levels when you can start being effective with your metamagic casting a wizard will beat out the sorcerer every time. If a sorcerer wants to cast a spell modified by metamagic it takes a full round action (unless you have some non core feats). Which means you will never quicken your spells. Wizards? They will not only quicken a hold person on you, but drop a maximized fireball ontop of you once your paralyzed. Oh yeah. :smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

Sorcerers are more than powerful enough for most any campaign so really either is very good. Just take note

1) Think it through and decide what sounds more fun-preparing spells, book keeping, the ability to switch out spells, great at knowledge skills. Or do you like having a caster that has a few more spells per day, great at social skills, having all your spells available to you all the time (until you run out of slots this ability is very fun for many people), not have to deal with the huge number of spell options every time you rest.

2) If you decide sorcerer then you need to be careful to pick great spells because if you choose poorly it hurts a lot more than the wizard. So ask for the best spells for you.

Both are great.

[Drakonzeta]

Well, really, it depends on what kind of campaign you're running. If its a fast, kick-in-the-door campaign, wizard. Cha. has no place there, and wizards can just prepare a whole bunch of bash spells and fly. More social, sorcerer, due to the fact that high cha. would allow you to interact better, while still having about the same blasting capacity as wizards if there is a monster to kill. I really don't know why people are saying whenever a sorcerer takes non-blasting, it doesn't work out. They can take a summon monster and work fine.

[Leon]

Both have good points and bad points.

I find Wizards boring and needlessly complex with the spellbook.
I'd rather sit down and have a good think about the type of spell's id like to cover and make a Sorcerer list for that.

[Corronchilejano]

Both have good points and bad points.

I find Wizards boring and needlessly complex with the spellbook.
I'd rather sit down and have a good think about the type of spell's id like to cover and make a Sorcerer list for that.

The WIzard is like this... but every day.

I love it.

[Scarlet-Devil]

I'm sure it's already been said to death but:

Wizards are more powerful because of their versatility and greater selection of spells.

Sorcerers are more powerful because they have more spells per day and can spontaneously cast any spell they know if they have the appropriate spell slots available.

Wizards are more work, so I generally recommend sorcerer to someone who hasn't played a full, arcane caster before.

[valadil]

Why more fun?

Some people LIKE book keeping.

I think sorcerers are more fun, but I wouldn't assert that that's universally true.

What makes sorcerers fun to me is mix and matching my metamagic on the fly. As long as I have rapid metamagic available, giving me 4 metamagic feats and 20ish spells, and telling me to find the single best option for the current set of circumstances is just plain awesome. As a wizard, I'd have to have thought of that circumstance (or one very much like it) already and prepared for it. I don't enjoy that as much.


Wizards are more work, so I generally recommend sorcerer to someone who hasn't played a full, arcane caster before.

They're more work, but they're also more forgiving. A newb sorcerer might take burning hands, scorching ray, and fireball before realizing that having other damage types might be nice. Wizards can buy more scrolls and fix that problem. Sorcerers have to wait a few levels to even begin to fix things. I think the set in stone nature of a sorcerer will make them more difficult for an arcane newbie.

[Urpriest]

They can take a summon monster and work fine.

That's a pretty massive chunk of your spells known taken up on keeping updated with summon monster. Sorcerors can do decent battlefield control, but with spells that age well, not summon monster.

[Corronchilejano]

What makes sorcerers fun to me is mix and matching my metamagic on the fly. As long as I have rapid metamagic available, giving me 4 metamagic feats and 20ish spells, and telling me to find the single best option for the current set of circumstances is just plain awesome.

Bear in mind, you're talking about a mid-high level Sorcerer. A level 6 sorcerer has enough trouble picking feats he probably won't use in quite a while just so he can use metamagic "somewhere in the future". At level 9 grabing rapid metamagic means you won't have a new feat until level 12!

So, working with metamagic means sacrificing everything else, that's what I dislike about him.

[cfalcon]

I definitely feel that the sorceror is more newbie friendly. Sure you CAN misbuild horribly, but generally when it's time to level, everyone wants to talk about levelling. There's a pause in the action- in my games you have to "train" for several days, and many games go by the rules where you need downtime in some fashion. In other words, you won't kill an orc, DING, and have one combat round to decide, and generally most of your party will level at the same time. A sorc at level 4 who seems lackluster will normally get some tips such that by level 5 they'll have some better stuff.

I've also seen sorcerers really start contributing heavily in the midgame, while the wizards tend to take a few more levels. As a sorc, you'll often have a spell that will HELP. As a wizard, you'll have the PERFECT spell, but you might not have memorized it- or you might benefit from it more than once, but you only have one copy of it in your head. Meanwhile, the sorc is happy to switch from fireballs to dimension door when he's focussed, but you can run the wizard out of that stuff. Your sorc is under attack? Use your defensive spells, over and over. They are letting you freecast? Control the hell out of them, and blow them up. The wizard can't contribute in that way until much later, when he effectively has multiple copies of different spells for different roles.

The sorcerer class has weaknesses, as this whole thread will quickly consist of. Briefly:
1- Delayed access to spells.
2- Nothing besides spell and familiar advancement
3- Sharply limited spells known at any time

The STRENGTH of the sorcerer casting method is what isn't discussed much. And that is, if you run into something that takes extra damage, or is easily controlled, you just don't have to stop casting that spell. If you walk into a situation that you have ANY answer for, you have MORE answers than the wizard does, unless he was gambling that morning and got REAL lucky. Sure, if you are hunting a young adult white dragon, the wizard will have fire spells for several rounds. But the sorcerer who knows one fire spell had that covered, and has it covered if the dragon pops out at you.

I think a lot of the superiority of wizards is due to subconcsiously metagaming DMs and the fact that the wizards get around it. I don't do this unless the enemies KNOW the PCs in game (and have reasons for it, and usually the PCs at least have some tricky items), but too often I see DMs dismiss encounter design that would play to their sorcerer early on ("well, I can't use the frost giant because Harv has fireballs every round for the whole thing, lemme replace them with something else.."). If your DM does this, definitely don't play a sorc.


Anyway, in the end, both are really cool. My games have seen a lot more sorcerers than wizards. I have the following things that I do for sorcs in my games:

1- d6 hit die
2- A chance to learn an "augmented version" of any spell they pick. I don't recommend this unless you are comfortable with on the fly stuff, but examples have included a slightly faster fly, a green fireball that did a little extra damage, and higher level caps in the case of a few spells that have that. I only reward these for players who actually get the spell through a sorcerer level (not a prestige class).
3- I have items that "know" a spell or two. This obviously gets around the largest restriction of the sorc, and should be used very sparingly.

PLENTY of other buffs for sorcerers are out there- both on the boards, and in company produced stuff (check out Pathfinder PRD for instance). The general idea is that they need to be a bit stronger, but if you play them exactly as written, they are still quite strong.


On a different note- does anyone remember which splatbook has the rules for spellbooks of different materials? I thought it was Complete Mage, but couldn't find it in there.

[Welknair]

That's a pretty massive chunk of your spells known taken up on keeping updated with summon monster. Sorcerors can do decent battlefield control, but with spells that age well, not summon monster.

Beat me to it.


I concur with what has generally been said.

Wizards are generally better than sorcerers, save for the Sorcerer's high Charisma. If you aren't in an intrigue-campaign with lots of talking and negotiating, then Wizard really takes the cake.

There are some non-core feats (namely the Heritage Feats) that can allow Sorcerers to cool some neat tricks, but by Core, they really don't have much going for them.

Major points: Wizards can switch their spells to cope with upcoming challenges. Wizards can potentially obtain every spell. Wizards don't need to spend a full-round to cast a metamagic spell (which become VERY IMPORTANT at higher levels). Wizards generally have a more useful key stat.

Sorcerers don't have to think ahead each day (They only have to do that when leveling. And when they do that, they need to think pretty far ahead). Sorcerers don't have to specialize to get a high-number of slots (They're limited number of spells-known kinda negates this). The girls love Sorcerers (Except the Wizard could easily obtain a Dominate...).

Yeah, I'd say go Wizard.

Edit: Look at me not reading the post before me. The book was Complete Arcane.

And yes, that aspect of the sorcerer is about the only thing going for them. When they have the spell for the job, they have the spell. But if the Wizard has any sort of prior information, the Wizard could prepare the needed spells. Either way, this allows Sorcerers to tend more towards a blaster as they don't have to worry about "Preparing" sissy utility spells. They just know a few, and tend to blast the crud out of whatever the obstacle is.

[Greenish]

Wizards are generally better than sorcerers, save for the Sorcerer's high Charisma. If you aren't in an intrigue-campaign with lots of talking and negotiatingWell, if you are, beguiler can give either a run for his money. Besides, Forgery is int-based, and wizard has more skillpoints to burn. :smallwink:

[Welknair]

Well, if you are, beguiler can give either a run for his money. Besides, Forgery is int-based, and wizard has more skillpoints to burn. :smallwink:

Point. But why not just Charm the person requesting the papers? Any of those three should have that spell known or prepared.

[ericgrau]

I only have the core books and I'm working with a wizard or sorcerer(only core) build. I'm wondering whether a sorcerer or wizard is better. It seems like the main consensus is that wizards are better, but I'm wondering why.

Uh oh, you're gonna get a heavily biased opinion here. As in "wizards are the pwnzors." And then in a group I was in they say the sorcerer is "obviously" better.

Basically the sorcerer is better on the fly, the wizard is better with preparation. A wizard who always prepares the same spell list is better off playing a sorcerer, because the sorcerer will have more options after the wizard has burned a couple spells and lost those options. It's not as easy for a wizard to ban a school in core so that limits his spells per day and combat options further. Situational spontaneous metamagic like still spell get more useful on a sorc too, though still not necessarily better than non-situational options. I've had fun making extremely flexible, minimal tedious preparation battlefield control sorcerers before. Every round of combat is interesting as I have 15 options to choose from, without needing to worry about whether or not I'll need one later or having less later on.

The wizard is also half a spell level higher and gets quicken, which are better for churning out high level high power spells quickly (but also burning up your resources quickly). This is often good for blasting as those spells are more level dependent, whereas even lower level control spells are good. Though either class can do any style.

Do be extra careful when picking your spell list if going sorcerer because you can't change them later. Search these forums (e.g. google "site:www.giantitp.com spell list"). For either class grab a lot of low level scrolls to become even more prepared for random situations. As for which to pick in core I'd say it's up to you. Pick your style: careful preparation ahead of time and spell switching with more options at that time or carefully thought out battles with more options at that time.

[Welknair]

Do be extra careful when picking your spell list if going sorcerer because you can't change them later.

...

Yes you can, 1 spell every... 4 levels, was it? Or was it every other? Either way, you can change your choices, you just don't get many opportunities to do so.

[Kylarra]

...

Yes you can, 1 spell every... 4 levels, was it? Or was it every other? Either way, you can change your choices, you just don't get many opportunities to do so.Yeah at 4th and every even level after that you can swap out a spell known of spell level n-2 or less, where n is the highest level spell you can cast.

[valadil]

Bear in mind, you're talking about a mid-high level Sorcerer. A level 6 sorcerer has enough trouble picking feats he probably won't use in quite a while just so he can use metamagic "somewhere in the future". At level 9 grabing rapid metamagic means you won't have a new feat until level 12!

So, working with metamagic means sacrificing everything else, that's what I dislike about him.

Even middle level sorcerers can be decent with metamagic. Also, I highly recommend the PHB2 variant rather than the rapid metamagic feat. It lets you swap out your familiar to get fast metamagic instead of burning a feat and waiting till level 9. That said, if I were starting at level 1 and the PHB2 option weren't around, I'd probably find another class to play. Fast metamagic means that much to me on a sorc. I also aim for featful PrCs with this type of sorc, because I know how feat starved an MM sorc can be.

Last sorc I played took Sculpt Spell at level 3. It was useless until level 4, but then I was sculpting Grease and Color Spray every round, which is downright angry at that level. Beyond that I just got more and more choices and options.

[Corronchilejano]

Even middle level sorcerers can be decent with metamagic.
Not with core.


Also, I highly recommend the PHB2 variant rather than the rapid metamagic feat. It lets you swap out your familiar to get fast metamagic instead of burning a feat and waiting till level 9.
3 times plus inteligence modifier.


That said, if I were starting at level 1 and the PHB2 option weren't around, I'd probably find another class to play. Fast metamagic means that much to me on a sorc.
That's what I meant. Core Sorc is lacking.


I also aim for featful PrCs with this type of sorc, because I know how feat starved an MM sorc can be.
Correct, there's really no reason to stay with a Sorcerer.


Last sorc I played took Sculpt Spell at level 3. It was useless until level 4, but then I was sculpting Grease and Color Spray every round, which is downright angry at that level. Beyond that I just got more and more choices and options.
My last sorcerer (one of my favorites) used a house ruled Arcane Thesis (not errata'd, allowed for feats to add max +0 to spell level) on Stone Rain (I think that's the name, 1d4 per level, no save on 5ft radius). Then I just went crazy with metamagic: Empower, sculpt, energy substitution and admixture, all applied to that specific spell. It was all kinds of awesome.

The rest of my spells where divination. That sorcerer wouldn't have been posible with core only.

[Greenish]

Point. But why not just Charm the person requesting the papers?Because Charm Person isn't really mind-control. It makes someone friendly to you, but that just means they "wish you well" and might offer limited help.

Say, you want to go to a lord's ball. The doorman could be friendly to you, and still decline entrance without an invitation (since he'd lost his job if caught).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A core only game still has the polymorph and planar binding lines. Those are the spells, wizard or sorcerer, you only pull out when you REALLY need to, because the smell of stinky cheese is awful.

I'd make something like Wizard 7/Loremaster 6/Archmage 3 or 4/Loremaster the rest of the way. It gives you a variety of neat class features, and while the prerequisites are feat-intensive, the spell focuses and metamagic feats are the best you can do in core anyway. The skill focus feats are bad, but Loremaster at least makes up for one of them with a bonus feat.

As far as the whole wizards v sorcerers debate goes, IME wizards are glaringly better at the odd levels, and it's mostly a wash at the even levels.

[ericgrau]

...

Yes you can, 1 spell every... 4 levels, was it? Or was it every other? Either way, you can change your choices, you just don't get many opportunities to do so.

Every other. Ya that's not many. You still need to be very careful with most of your spells. Probably all of them, because even after being careful you'll still make a mistake or two.

[John Campbell]

It's also cheaper and easier for Wizards to use items to make up their weaknesses than it is for Sorcerers. Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free, and bonus feats that can be used to take other item creation feats. This means the Wizard can take some downtime and create scrolls or other items of those spells in the back of their spellbook that come in handy every so often but aren't worth preparing every day, or that they might feel the need to spam more often than they have slots for.

Sorcerers, on the other hand, can't make up their deficiency in spells known this way. Not only do they not get the bonus feats to do it, so have to spend some of their precious, precious general feats if they want item creation at all, but you have to be able to cast a spell to craft an item of it. That means that you can't use item creation to expand spell selection, and the Sorcerer's main problem is the extremely limited spell selection. (And delayed spell progression... the Sorcerer's two main problems are extremely limited spell selection, delayed spell progression, and screwage over metamagic. Among the Sorcerer's problems... I'll come in again.) They can, of course, still buy scrolls or wands or whatnot, but it costs twice as much that way (the XP cost of crafting is practically meaningless, due to the way the 3.x XP award system works) - and if the DM is being conservative about scroll supplies to keep the Wizard from filling his spellbook, it bites the Sorcerer here, too.

[ericgrau]

Eh low level scrolls are cheap enough that either should use them and mid to higher level scrolls are expensive enough that neither would even craft them. I've loaded up on scrolls on both my sorcs, and was crazy prepared both times. Scribe scroll saves you a few hundred to a few thousand gold or so depending on level. Low level scrolls are dirt cheap and beyond that your money is best spent elsewhere anyway.

I've seen magic item creation as mostly optional, not even in 2/3 of the builds out there. The only useful application I can see for crafting more spells is craft staff, which is highly underrated. So underrated, in fact, that nobody ever builds a character with that feat. So... um, ya.

[seraine]

What have I done...:smalleek: I've created a monster.. a two page monster!

On a serious note, what would be the best core wizard/ sorcerer race? I am thinking either Gnome or human. I think a good PrC for wizards would be the Loremaster, but the 4 feats needed aand 20 skill points (knowledge), would be a pain.

For sorcerors, if a wizard's advantage is those obscure, once in a blue moon spells, wouldn't low level spells often remedy that? For example, a bag of holding could hold all the once in a blue moon spells you'll ever need, or that backpack that the needed item is always on top, could probably solve that without a 8 hour wait.

Being able to use a spell repeatedly would be a huge advantage in many encounters, because if you have the spell it'll be used to a much greater effect than if a wizard had it. Not only that, preparing all those spells sounds like a bore.

EDIT: Adding on to once in a blue moon spells, once scrolls start getting expensive limited wish should take everything else.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Normally human is the best due to the feat and the skill points, but core feats aren't as good by themselves. Gnome is the best unless you're banning illusion.

[Cerlis]

if a wizard specializes twice, he gets just as many spells as a sorcerer, but he's limited to like 2-3 schools. VEEERY simular to a sorcerer who often picks a theme and goes with it.

The nicety of a sorcerer is if you want to do one or two things, and do it alot.

best if the party already has a wizard.

[dextercorvia]

if a wizard specializes twice, he gets just as many spells as a sorcerer, but he's limited to like 2-3 schools. VEEERY simular to a sorcerer who often picks a theme and goes with it.

The nicety of a sorcerer is if you want to do one or two things, and do it alot.

best if the party already has a wizard.

Only the changeling wizard can dual specialize and he still has 5 schools.

[Urpriest]

Only the changeling wizard can dual specialize and he still has 5 schools.

He means Focused Specialist.

[ericgrau]

What have I done...:smalleek: I've created a monster.. a two page monster!

1. On a serious note, what would be the best core wizard/ sorcerer race? I am thinking either Gnome or human. I think a good PrC for wizards would be the Loremaster, but the 4 feats needed aand 20 skill points (knowledge), would be a pain.

2. For sorcerors, if a wizard's advantage is those obscure, once in a blue moon spells, wouldn't low level spells often remedy that? For example, a bag of holding could hold all the once in a blue moon spells you'll ever need, or that backpack that the needed item is always on top, could probably solve that without a 8 hour wait.

3. Being able to use a spell repeatedly would be a huge advantage in many encounters, because if you have the spell it'll be used to a much greater effect than if a wizard had it. Not only that, preparing all those spells sounds like a bore.

4. EDIT: Adding on to once in a blue moon spells, once scrolls start getting expensive limited wish should take everything else.
1. One gives a feat one gives con, AC and AB for rays. Both are excellent options for both classes. Loremaster is a so-so prc for wizards and way too expensive to get into for sorcerers. Pick it if you want its abilities (and you're a wizard), spend your feats and spells elsewhere if you don't. Archmage is awesomesauce for either class once you reach the level for it.
2. The lower level spells are not an advantage as both classes should have them on scrolls. The wizard gets more mileage out of the higher level once in a blue moon spells, which are even more rare. Really it's the +1/2 spell level and the ability to do things on his off days like scry or prepare ice spells for the dungeon with a big sign in front that says "Fiery Volcano of Magma Fire Doom". For unknown encounters or if you're too lazy to gather intelligence before going somewhere spell preparation doesn't really help.
3. Ya picking the right spell for the situation, out of an array of 15 non-decreasing options, then using it as many times as you want is handy. Again it all boils down to versatility in the morning or versatility during the fight, take your pick.
4. Interesting idea. Only 3,775 gp which is a lot to burn at a whim but affordable if you save it for that one day when you're up against the wall and don't have what you need, you pop it. I'd get just 1.

[seraine]

4. Interesting idea. Only 3,775 gp which is a lot to burn at a whim but affordable if you save it for that one day when you're up against the wall and don't have what you need, you pop it. I'd get just 1.

What if Limited Wish actually was one of your known spells?

[Gnaeus]

I've seen magic item creation as mostly optional, not even in 2/3 of the builds out there. The only useful application I can see for crafting more spells is craft staff, which is highly underrated. So underrated, in fact, that nobody ever builds a character with that feat. So... um, ya.

Craft wands is wonderful as well. Wizards can craft a couple of non DC or level dependent spells into wands and never memorize them again, while still using them at will just like a sorcerer.

Craft wondrous items is even better. A uses/day flight or enlarge or polymorph item for the fighter prevents the wizard from having to prep those spells, and lets the fighter function without direct wizard support. Even if the rules for custom items are not allowed, + Stat items, movement items (to allow more full attacks), flight items, energy resistance, haste items, items to detect invisible creatures, etc are all possible with this one feat, and they all free up spaces in the wizards spells/day for whatever he feels will be most useful.

And don't forget quasi-item creation. Utility spells like Shrink Item are unlikely to beat out standards like Haste, Slow and Fly on the sorcerer's spell list, but a wizard can prepare and cast them on quiet days and let everyone walk into the dungeon with a campfire, a boulder, and a wall in their pockets. Likewise, something like Extended Greater Magic Weapon, cast in the evening before entering the dungeon, is unlikely to be on the sorcerer's list but lets the wizard get a lot more punch on the first day of a dungeon crawl.

[dextercorvia]

He means Focused Specialist.

Who still gets at least 5 schools.

If you start after level 5, a Focused Diviner using the Spontaneous Diviner ACF and Versatile Spellcaster, only loses 2 schools. I wouldn't want to play through 5 levels of FS Diviner without some way of casting different spells -- there aren't [i]that[/t] many good Divinations. So if I started earlier, I would have to burn a feat to qualify for VS, which isn't that bad really, since you essentially spending a feat on Spontaneous Divination, anyway.

[MeeposFire]

Unless I am forgetting something as a focused diviner with spontaneous divining you will have to have 3 of your spell slots dedicated to divination spells per spell level and you will be using your other slots to power more divinations?

I hope you really like those types of spells because I would be bored fairly quickly.

[Sr.medusa]

And Perls of power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower), the wizzard can use them for casting spells like a soccerer (even more), and unfairly, the soccerer only can use them as a expensive sling bullets :smallannoyed::smallannoyed:.

[MeeposFire]

There is an alternative for pearls of power for sorcs though I am not sure where it is...

[Thespianus]

Unless I am forgetting something as a focused diviner with spontaneous divining you will have to have 3 of your spell slots dedicated to divination spells per spell level and you will be using your other slots to power more divinations?

I hope you really like those types of spells because I would be bored fairly quickly.

Spontaneous Divination is best suited for Wizards who specialize in other schools. If you specialise in Divination and grab Spontaneous Divination, you'll indeed be real bored with Divination spells and your party members will start doing "Yo dawg, I heard you liked divination spells"-jokes

[nedz]

Wizards are more powerful than Sorcerors, but then both are more powerful than most other classes. That said Sorc 1 is more powerful than Wiz 1, but Sorc 2 is a bit crap, so the Wizard is ahead from level 3.

I think, for what its worth, that it comes down to what you find more fun.

Wizards are a lot more work during the game, but Sorcerors probably require more homework.

There are a number of spells around that are flexible in their usage, these can add to a Sorc's flexibility, which is a useful thing for them.

I'm currently playing a couple of Sorc's

For one of them I wanted a Gnome Illusionist since I've not played one recently. From previous play I knew that I would only want a few spells known to fill this role (about 2-3 per spell level) and so a Sorc would be a good choice.

[Greenish]

That said Sorc 1 is more powerful than Wiz 1What, why? Does a free feat really hurt that much?

[dextercorvia]

You missed the point. You take Spontaneous Divination, or Alacritous Cogitation to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster. Then it doesn't matter what all of those slots were intended for, you can cast anything you want with them. But, you only lose two schools.

Now that I think about it, I do like Alacritous Cogitation (or Uncanny Forethought) better than Spont. Div. for this character. It helps to swap out another divination with your highest level spell slots.

[ericgrau]

What if Limited Wish actually was one of your known spells?

Bad idea to waste a spell known for a sorcerer because either he doesn't get much mileage out of it or he loses a lot of xp. Often a bad idea for the wizard to prepare because it either eats up a slot or he loses xp. Maybe if he could prepare it a day in advance, but then only if he doesn't have the specific spell he needs. Ya, maybe either could get it if they run into the unexpected a lot, but that's a high price to pay for preparedness. It better be worth it. That's why I liked the scroll idea. You save it for weeks and weeks until the day finally comes where something is so wtf that no spell you know is good for it.


Craft wands is wonderful as well. Wizards can craft a couple of non DC or level dependent spells into wands and never memorize them again, while still using them at will just like a sorcerer.

Craft wondrous items is even better. A uses/day flight or enlarge or polymorph item for the fighter prevents the wizard from having to prep those spells, and lets the fighter function without direct wizard support. Even if the rules for custom items are not allowed, + Stat items, movement items (to allow more full attacks), flight items, energy resistance, haste items, items to detect invisible creatures, etc are all possible with this one feat, and they all free up spaces in the wizards spells/day for whatever he feels will be most useful.

And don't forget quasi-item creation. Utility spells like Shrink Item are unlikely to beat out standards like Haste, Slow and Fly on the sorcerer's spell list, but a wizard can prepare and cast them on quiet days and let everyone walk into the dungeon with a campfire, a boulder, and a wall in their pockets. Likewise, something like Extended Greater Magic Weapon, cast in the evening before entering the dungeon, is unlikely to be on the sorcerer's list but lets the wizard get a lot more punch on the first day of a dungeon crawl.
I'd think craft wand would get even less mileage than scribe scroll. I mean invisibility is good and besides that there's um... invisibility. You can't effectively use anything with a save DC or caster level dependent effects or, in the case of wands, anything that won't get used 50 times. That severely limits your options. Hence why I like craft staff (but no one ever gets it so it's not good for comparison) or straight-up buying staffs.

Crafting permanent items is great, don't get me wrong, but still optional.

I had a sorcerer with shrink item with caster-level items on a caster-level day rotating cycle, thus eating up only 1 spell per day. Quite useful for him too; you don't need downtime. As an added advantage he could also shrink item whatever the party found, including corpses, or if not then he uses the spell/day for something else.

[Coidzor]

Oh man. pokeball undead minions....x.x

[seraine]

Bad idea to waste a spell known for a sorcerer because either he doesn't get much mileage out of it or he loses a lot of xp.

Limited wish can duplicate any wizard/sorcerer 6th level spell, with no XP cost unless the original spell costs XP. You will be able to cast any 6th level or below sorcerer spell, though unfortunately there's only so many times you can cast a 7th-8th level spell a day, but having lots of spells per day is one of the sorcerer's big advantages.

But it may have been changed for 3.5, I only own 3.0.

EDIT:spelling mistakes

[dextercorvia]

Limited wish can duplicate any wizard/sorcerer 6th level spell, with no XP cost unless the original spell costs XP. You will be able to cast any 6th level or below sorcerer spell, though unfortunately there's only so many times you can cast a 7th-8th level spell a day, but having lots of spells per day is one of the sorcerer's big advantages.

But it may have been changed for 3.5, I only own 3.0.

EDIT:spelling mistakes

In 3.5, Limited Wish always costs 300XP.