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Benson
2011-01-21, 12:14 PM
What makes an artificer so broken that DMs will often ban it from some of their games? I hear/read about this class usually being a game breaker, how so? Enlighten me.

Ernir
2011-01-21, 12:22 PM
Their (seemingly) intended trick was to multiply the party's wealth. So your party is getting more powerful magic items faster, and more importantly, with a greater degree of customization than what would be available from most DMs.

They have quite a few ways to not pay for metamagic costs when using their items.

They get access to spells faster than Wizards do. They also get all of them. They are therefore a Tier 1 class under JaronK's tier system, which carries a tag of its own.





That being said, I'd consider them significantly harder to break than, say, Wizards. Most Artificers I've seen (as well as the one I've played) have ended up as little more than Wizards who have to pay to use their spells.

gbprime
2011-01-21, 12:24 PM
Well apart from being the ultimate buffing class and being able to "cast" pretty much any spell, they can cannibalize existing magic items in order to make new ones. From a wealth by level point of view, it is exceedingly efficient. A party with an artificer tends to be OVER-equipped with custom-tailored items.

Elvenoutrider
2011-01-21, 12:34 PM
and a wand weilding artificer can easily out dps the barbarian, out crowd control the wizard, completely replace the party rogue, and heal better than a cleric. This class can replace an entire party by itself, and then it can take the craft contruct feat and build an army of effigies...

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-21, 12:48 PM
Because it's nuts. WBL is the most powerful part of the game when used right. Artificiers can in general double or more the value of their wbl.

Ytaker
2011-01-21, 12:53 PM
Efficient Progress (Ex): The Artificer is well adept at the crafting of magical items. At every even level, the Artificer is able to reduce the amount of time, gold and xp expended on the creation of a magic item by the indicated number (Increments of 10%)

That is why. Custom crafted items at a much, much lower cost.

Kaww
2011-01-21, 01:01 PM
Efficient Progress (Ex): The Artificer is well adept at the crafting of magical items. At every even level, the Artificer is able to reduce the amount of time, gold and xp expended on the creation of a magic item by the indicated number (Increments of 10%)

That is why. Custom crafted items at a much, much lower cost.

Which book is this? :smallconfused:

Ernir
2011-01-21, 01:18 PM
Efficient Progress (Ex): The Artificer is well adept at the crafting of magical items. At every even level, the Artificer is able to reduce the amount of time, gold and xp expended on the creation of a magic item by the indicated number (Increments of 10%)

That is why. Custom crafted items at a much, much lower cost.

Isn't that from this homebrew (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Artificer_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29)?

Greenish
2011-01-21, 01:18 PM
It is often said of ToB, especially warblades, that they're very easy to do competently, but have somewhat low ceiling in how powerful they can be made by optimization.

Artificers are the polar opposite.

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-21, 01:21 PM
That's not RAW abilities, they have the craft reserve to do that kind of thing.

However, they can access about a dozen things that let them craft things at a fraction of the cost. Especially wands.

Trekkin
2011-01-21, 03:26 PM
If anything, I think the problem with the Artificer is a much larger version of the problem with the Factotum and the Archivist: giving a class a blank check for "all" of something, be it skills or spells, is dangerous in a setting with this much published source material. On the Factotum end, we get Iajitsu(sp?) Focus and Autohypnosis allowing effects that probably aren't intended but aren't gamebreaking, either; on the Artificer end, we get people pulling in, say, Dragon Compendium to write scrolls of Animate Dead at level one, because Death Masters get it at CL 3. There are worse excesses, of course, but the spirit of the problem is the same: a player with access to "all" of some class of content has a huge library from which to choose, more so than most other characters. Even wizards, whose spell selection only grows as new books are brought in, have a limited number of slots in which to put those spells and a very limited two spells per level before they have to actually find them in the world; artificers are bound only by their gold, time, and craft reserve (which ceases to be as much of an issue once they can cannibalize items).

The other issue is simply that item creation rules need firm DM adjudication to work as intended, and many DMs I've known don't want to spend a disproportionate amount of time with a single player making sure his items are free of abuse and cheese or impose hugely limiting restrictions on the player to save time, so they end up unintentionally letting broken things be made.

It's not a bad class,in my opinion; I've played them myself to great fun all around the table, and I've DMed parties including them with little issue, but they need a few things to work:

1. The books from which the artificer can draw need to be restricted, especially in games where every player wants to play a class from a different splatbook. This makes it much easier to limit potential abuse, and can be a fun exercise in creativity as well.
2. The item rules need to be thoroughly understood by both players involved.
3. WBL and especially time need to be controlled; even with a Dedicated Wright, having only a few days in which to make something can help stop the Artificer showing up with a hundred wands and Metamagic Spell Trigger-ing them into magic nukes.
4. Most importantly, everyone in the party needs to understand that this is one of those classes that's dangerous. It really can break the game without even trying, but the ones that try not to break the game are generally successful.

That all said, they're a really fun class that has some wonderful builds out there, and one of the most compatible with player creativity I've known.

stainboy
2011-01-21, 05:12 PM
The artificer's abilities aren't presented in a user-friendly way. The class says "you can do all the things on these tables in the back of the DMG" which makes it easy to skim the class without understanding all the things it can do.

For example, a 5th level artificer can spend an infusion to gain the ability to cast Control Undead. Not Command Undead, the good one that regular casters don't get until 13th level. Is that game-breaking? Probably not if the DM knows about it in advance, but it surprised the hell out of me.

The best way to get a class or ability banned is to surprise the DM with it in the middle of combat. That's easy to do if the DM hasn't read the Artificer class carefully, then cross-referenced it with the infusion list, then the item creation feats in the PHB, then a dozen magic item tables spread out over half the DMG, then every other sourcebook he allows that contains magic items.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-21, 05:18 PM
I'd like to know what infusion the 5th level Artificer is using to get a 7th level spell.

stainboy
2011-01-21, 05:29 PM
Greater Armor Enhancement grants an armor special ability with a market value of up to 100,000 gp. The Undead Controlling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#undeadControlling) property has a market value of 49,000 gp. For the duration, the artificer has unlimited castings of Control Undead, so long as he controls no more than 26 HD at one time.

The Etherealness special property has the same market value, also casts a 7th level spell, and is given as an example of use in the text of Greater Armor Enhancement. There's no ambiguity about whether these uses were intended.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-21, 05:39 PM
Hey, neat.

golem1972
2011-01-21, 05:44 PM
Essentially an artificer can spend xp to increase the parties wbl.

Sell the parties magic items (half market price) and build them the items they wanted (half market price - gp reducing feats). If a party of four has 10000gp each the artificer can turn that into 20000 gp (market price) each in magic equipment. If the 10k gp was all magic items, theres no gp gain for the party, just customization. If it's all cash, you've essentially doubled their WBL. If you kept the reduced gp difference for yourself, you've doubled your wbl + 2x the total cost savings.

Blastificers can pump out a lot of damage for a commensurate gold piece cost (I stay away from that myself).

Buffificers can easily out do DMM Clerics.

Me personally, I tend to minimize my expendable magic items and stick mostly to long term use items. Basically for me it's the difference between a potion of cure serious and a healing belt. Same cost, one has a much better benefit. And I only use retain essence on magic traps or similar items: xp is a river, gps are power.

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-21, 06:00 PM
Well, here's the thing. In D&D, spells can do things quickly and easily. If you have "Build a wall" prepared, then it's the best way to build a wall. If you have "Knock" it is the best way to unlock a door or chest.

Artificers have access to every spell, every enchantment, and every magic item.

With enough spreadsheets, that becomes very broken.

Halae
2011-01-21, 06:07 PM
And after all that, all a player needs to do is look at the Cost Reduction Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0) to send WBL far over the edge. Of course, it's very rare that any reasonable DM would allow this sort of thing, but the potential is there, like it is for any sufficiently rules aligned player.

The point is, if someone wants to play an artificer, it should be a lot like someone wanting to play an evil character or... I don't know, a red wizard. The point is, yes, it can work, but it's so easy to send things past their limit that it becomes very easy to disrupt the game. this is the territory where DMs shuld have a chat with their player in order to keep them from going that far

Da Beast
2011-01-21, 08:53 PM
I think it should be noted that artificer is probably the most complicated class to play effectively and requires more book keeping than just about anything else you could make. If someone has the expertise and wants to put in the time and the effort artificer can be insanely broken with access to any ability in the game and getting spells before the classes that actually cast them. If you don't know what you're doing you'll probably fall behind a blaster wizard in terms of unused potential.

true_shinken
2011-01-21, 08:55 PM
It is often said of ToB, especially warblades, that they're very easy to do competently, but have somewhat low ceiling in how powerful they can be made by optimization.

Artificers are the polar opposite.

This is so very true.
The artificer in my game has to flip through about 10 pages of notes everytime he does anything other than iaijutsu (because he multiclassed so as not to have 'artificer work' to do all the time; he's still the most powerful character in the group).

Endarire
2011-01-22, 02:38 AM
Artificers have 4 main weaknesses:

-High wealth dependency. It may be cheap, but it ain't free!
-High time dependency, at least until they have a Dedicated Wright to work for them.
-High need for DM supervision.
-You need to be an expert at D&D to optimize one and play one well.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 05:26 AM
Even when you get a Dedicated Wright, it still costs time. Sure, now you don't have to sit down and do nothing but craft, but your item STILL won't be ready for a while.
If you're on the clock, the item may not be finished until after the campaign ends.

Also, Artificers can expect to be a lvl or 2 lower than the rest of the party for XP. Eating items are ok, but you lose gold from that. Say, item is worth A Xp and B gold. You get A Xp to make another item. Nice, but you need to use B gold and crafting time to make it into an item you want.

Artificer's spell casting ALSO eats WBL. I believe the conversion of WBL to spell should reign back the WBL.

Artificers have a LOT of flexibility. Will probably Out-god God Wizards themselves. Prepared spells? No need, just reach into your Bag of Holding for the spell you want. You probably have a wand for that.
Need to kill a BBEG? You can, so long you spend as much as you can expect to find from the loot.

JaronK
2011-01-22, 06:00 AM
Note that if you're playing with action points, it's not too hard to have Artificers capable of casting spells off wands without using charges, since there's a feat (IIRC) that lets you spend an action point instead of a charge, and Artificers can persist a spell that gives one action point per round.

JaronK

Innis Cabal
2011-01-22, 06:42 AM
Artificers have 4 main weaknesses:

-High wealth dependency. It may be cheap, but it ain't free!
-High time dependency, at least until they have a Dedicated Wright to work for them.
-High need for DM supervision.
-You need to be an expert at D&D to optimize one and play one well.

The last of those being an opinion only.

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-22, 09:26 AM
so easy to send things past their limit that it becomes very easy to disrupt the game.

Well, I wouldn't really say *easy.* You still need to do huge amounts of paperwork to make it happen.

I can't really see an artificer becoming hideously broken without trying.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 10:02 AM
No one cheeses so much Cost reductions in a real game anyway.

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-22, 10:04 AM
Doc Roc did. He has a campaign journal up with a Gnome artiicier by the name of Bree.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 10:06 AM
Most DM's won't allow it. If they allowed it, they're OK with it, so no problem there either.

Ernir
2011-01-22, 10:34 AM
Doc Roc did. He has a campaign journal up with a Gnome artiicier by the name of Bree.

Not even he used the full set, though.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-22, 10:59 AM
Golly gee whilikers! Can we learn why the S-to-P Erudite is busted next?

Shouldn't it be obvious after just a quick skim?

FelixG
2011-01-22, 11:09 AM
The easy answer OP: Artificiers are about as broken as anything else in the game. If you put your mind to it, you can break them.

Most GMs ban aritificers out of knee jerk uninformed reactions like ToB or Psionics. Their fear stems from things they dont understand so they puff up their chests and say "Nu it are brokzors, you willz rueen mah game!"

Most players will be normal, they will be a bit above the WBL because they can make their things if you give them the time to do it. Long travels via wagon can give them time to work on their toys.

But a lot of the toys I have seen artificiers break out are expendables which get used up then have to be created again.

Some bad players may try to break it, but those same players will do it with any class they can, from Wizard to Cleric to Druid.

awa
2011-01-22, 11:12 AM
no need to be sarcastic
we still have long threads on why monks are as god as wizards. because most people play unoptimized games that never get to high level many people who do not realize what makes a class broken.

if a person thinks vow of poverty is over powered and many people do than the artificers brokenness is far less obvious

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 11:26 AM
Is StP really busted? As far as I can tell, they know lots of powers.

Depending on which Unique Powers/Day reading you take, they either suck or rock. If you take Total, then you end up with every power known, but can only use a very small fraction of it.

Even if you do take the UPowers /lvl/day, what they're good at is just utility. Yeah, you got the power for the job.

Weaknesses of STP: Quite a sum of Xp spent learning the Spells and powers you want. (Really now, there are tons of spells and powers you want to learn.) Access to Spells is hindered, so you cap out at lvl 8 spells, and you get them 2 lvls late anyway.

Spells also do not scale. Your fireball to deal 15d6 damage? Costs as much as a lvl 8 spell. Wizards get it off a cheap slot of lvl 3.

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-22, 11:32 AM
Psionic action economy breakage, added to the utility and power of spells, makes it a bit ridiculous.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 11:40 AM
If we don't use the Linked Synchronicity, or cheese like that... I don't think it's that bad. As for Schism casting, that's nothing it can't already do.

But yes, they would out-god the God wizard. Their power in spells would be lacking though (lack of scaling).

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-22, 11:47 AM
Then it's 'merely' a spontaneous Wizard (plus other arcane spells).. A wizard's power is that it can prepare to solve any threat....the next day. It has to prepare the right tools for the job.

Erudite? Not so much. Oh, and it can ignore material compents at the cost of an additional 2 PP.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 12:02 PM
I don't have much experience with choosing spells as a wizard. For me, combat spells are pretty much fixed, whatever the opponent is. (Unless it's one of those highly specific spells. Pwn if right, useless otherwise.)

But out of battle? Yeah, the wizard could do with spontaneously casting any spell off their spellbook. (Though, you can try Mage of the Arcane Order, or Alacritous cogitation + versatile spellcaster, to turn into a semi-spontaneous caster)

Radar
2011-01-22, 12:17 PM
I don't have much experience with choosing spells as a wizard. For me, combat spells are pretty much fixed, whatever the opponent is. (Unless it's one of those highly specific spells. Pwn if right, useless otherwise.)

But out of battle? Yeah, the wizard could do with spontaneously casting any spell off their spellbook. (Though, you can try Mage of the Arcane Order, or Alacritous cogitation + versatile spellcaster, to turn into a semi-spontaneous caster)
Uncanny Forethought (a feat from Exemplars of Evil) is so broken, it's hilarious (it let's you swap prepared spells for other in your spellbook).

CycloneJoker
2011-01-22, 12:54 PM
Dude, they're spontaneous wizards that also know Psionics. Really, what is NOT busted about that? They can beat batman at batman-ing.

Also, I vaguely remember a divine S-to-P, throw that on, and, well...:smallsigh:

Erudite>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wizard.

Bayar
2011-01-22, 05:57 PM
Golly gee whilikers! Can we learn why the S-to-P Erudite is busted next?

Shouldn't it be obvious after just a quick skim?

For someone that claimed that "Erudite is a ****ty class" on Brilliant Gameologists it wasn't because a sorcerer can do the same thing. Needless to say, the whole thread was a flamewar.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-22, 11:44 PM
For someone that claimed that "Erudite is a ****ty class" on Brilliant Gameologists it wasn't because a sorcerer can do the same thing. Needless to say, the whole thread was a flamewar.

First of all, why are you implying I said that? Second of all, that's a ****ty argument. Third, what was the point of that? Did you leave something out, or something?

SurlySeraph
2011-01-23, 01:33 AM
I don't think Bayar meant to imply that; I think he's just noting that big differences of opinion exist even on seemingly obvious points.

Though I'm reading that sentence as "For someone that claimed that 'Erudite is a ****ty class' on Brilliant Gameologists, it wasn't, because a sorcerer can do the same thing." It is worded a bit oddly.

bloodtide
2011-01-23, 03:32 AM
Broken 1 An artificer can use an infusion to make a temporary magic item. Any magic item, with in only a few vague limits. The classic example is a Bane magic weapon. What ever creature the artificer is fighting they can pull out a Bane weapon. Bane magic weapons are 'cheap' as they have limited usefulness, as they are only good against one type of creature. But when you can make a bane weapon, at will balance goes right out the window.

And this is true of a lot of weapon and armor infusions. Does the group need an ability? The artificer can make one. A ghost is attacking? Here is a ghost touch weapon. Lots of minions? Here is a mighty cleaving weapon. And so forth.

Broken 2 With even a small amount of down time, an artificer can create a huge amount of magic items. And their class ability allows them to make any item too.

0Megabyte
2011-01-23, 04:25 AM
Note: Personal Weapon Augmentation, the infusion generally used to do the whole Bane thing, requires a minute to cast.

However, you can use an action point to cast it as a full round action.

This is slightly more limited, as you generally have to know what you'll be dealing with beforehand, or have action points left, to use it. And Artificers seem like they go through action points really quickly.

lord_khaine
2011-01-23, 04:52 AM
And its not even sure if action points are used, it being an optimal rule and all.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 04:54 AM
And its not even sure if action points are used, it being an optimal rule and all.

Well normally it is expected since it is an Eberron class and Eberron does use action points, but yes that ability is lost if you disallow action points in a game with an artificer (and frankly artificers are more likely to cause a problem, at the very least they can slow down a table big time).

Volthawk
2011-01-23, 04:54 AM
And its not even sure if action points are used, it being an optimal rule and all.

Well, they're standard for Eberron.

Halae
2011-01-23, 05:11 AM
unfortunately, there's a feat in magic of eberron that changes the casting time of an infusion once per day to 1 full round action

2xMachina
2011-01-23, 05:12 AM
But in non-Eberron games, Artificers power do get cut down. They are built around action points. No action points... and it's harder to break. (I don't think there are ways to break artificer without action points. There's WBL doubling, but for me, extra WBL is mostly spent on making wands for spellcasting)

There's a few nice tricks though.
Greater Magic Weapon + Greater Weapon Augmentation + Magic weapon (+1 +9 abilities)
You end up with a +5 +14ability weapon. Costs some time to set up, and is quite expensive, but hey, +19 weapon!

They also have some built in Persist tricks. 3rd lvl infusion for 1 free metamagic on wand (so long you have the feat). Also, spending 1 extra wand charge for each metamagic lvl change. Or UMD scrolls (like Incantatrix uses Spellcraft) to metamagic spells.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 05:16 AM
unfortunately, there's a feat in magic of eberron that changes the casting time of an infusion once per day to 1 full round action

Yep and there are feats that really help them in other ways too.

Artificers are unique in that they are the only base class in 3.5 that is tier 1, is not a PHB class (or a slight variation of one such as the archivist), and does not require a web enhancement to give it tier one power. It is the most unigue class in tier one.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-23, 06:28 AM
Archivists are non-core, tier 1, and don't require a web enhancement to make them so.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 06:30 AM
Archivists are non-core, tier 1, and don't require a web enhancement to make them so.

That is what I said:smallconfused:. That is what makes them cool (among other things).

2xMachina
2011-01-23, 06:34 AM
She probably missed the 'variation' part.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 06:49 AM
She probably missed the 'variation' part.

That and I thought that Yuki wrote "Artificer" not "Archivist" woops on my part.

That is true in my opinion archivists are a variant of either clerics or wizard. The important part is that they are broken because of access to 9th level spells which are the reason clerics and wizards are broken. It is really the same problem with a different name.

Artificers are broken from item creation and use that nobody else can do. This is a unique method to brokenness in the game unlike 9th level spells.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-23, 07:09 AM
No, Cloistered Clerics are variants - Archivists are a thing unto themselves.

Unless you think Druids are a variant of Cleric, in which case...

(They were variant Priests in previous editions, but..)

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 07:15 AM
No, Cloistered Clerics are variants - Archivists are a thing unto themselves.

You are missing the point. The point is that artificers are unique in that they break the game in a way that is not found in the core game.

Archivists are a separate class but in design they are really just a wizard that casts divine spells (with a few interesting class features too that are not the issue considering brokenness). More importantly what makes the archivist broken is the same reason that wizards, clerics, sorcerers, and druids are broken. They all have 9th level spells from a high powered list. Without that core D&D issue archivists are not broken. Since they have the same type of brokenness as the core classes, for the purpose of classifying the brokenness I list it as a variant of the core D&D 9th level spell casting.

Bayar
2011-01-23, 09:13 AM
First of all, why are you implying I said that? Second of all, that's a ****ty argument. Third, what was the point of that? Did you leave something out, or something?

I guess that writing posts when depraved of sleep might not be a good idea.

I was reffering that S-t-P erudite is not obviously busted to everyone, because some people choose to be ignorant of such things. The example I gave was of a guy that acted obnoxious (although hilarious) trying to convince everybody that they are idiots if they think StP Erudite is any better than a sorcerer (and failing at it).

It wasn't meant to be an argument, just a random internet trivia.

MeeposFire
2011-01-23, 09:29 AM
I guess that writing posts when depraved (deprived:smallwink:) of sleep might not be a good idea.

I was reffering that S-t-P erudite is not obviously busted to everyone, because some people choose to be ignorant of such things. The example I gave was of a guy that acted obnoxious (although hilarious) trying to convince everybody that they are idiots if they think StP Erudite is any better than a sorcerer (and failing at it).

It wasn't meant to be an argument, just a random internet trivia.

YOUR SLEEP IS EVIL I MUST SMITE! YOUR DEPRAVED SLEEP WILL NOT ESCAPE MY WRATH!

VehemtlyYours
2011-01-23, 09:39 AM
Note that if you're playing with action points, it's not too hard to have Artificers capable of casting spells off wands without using charges, since there's a feat (IIRC) that lets you spend an action point instead of a charge, and Artificers can persist a spell that gives one action point per round.JaronK

Please, could you tell me the name of the spell and feat? That sounds crazy awesome.

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-23, 10:18 AM
as you generally have to know what you'll be dealing with beforehand

To be fair though, "Goblins stole my cattle" is likely to be featured right there in the quest description.

It is funny to watch as the DM remembers you can Bane and changes "Goblins stole my cattle" to "A multiracial band of humanoids stole my cattle"


unfortunately, there's a feat in magic of eberron that changes the casting time of an infusion once per day to 1 full round action


Yep and there are feats that really help them in other ways too.

Artificers are unique in that they are the only base class in 3.5 that is tier 1, is not a PHB class (or a slight variation of one such as the archivist), and does not require a web enhancement to give it tier one power. It is the most unigue class in tier one.


Please, could you tell me the name of the spell and feat? That sounds crazy awesome.

Uh, isn't it like, Rapid Spell or something?

Bayar
2011-01-23, 10:44 AM
Please, could you tell me the name of the spell and feat? That sounds crazy awesome.

The feat is called Wand Surge. Forgot the name of the spell, although it might be Unfettered heroism.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-23, 10:00 PM
The feat is called Wand Surge. Forgot the name of the spell, although it might be Unfettered heroism.

I found Unfettered Heroism in Races of Eberron, but I cannot locate Wand Surge. What book is it in?

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 06:38 AM
I found Unfettered Heroism in Races of Eberron, but I cannot locate Wand Surge. What book is it in?

Magic of Eberron, IIRC

CycloneJoker
2011-01-24, 10:20 AM
Magic of Eberron, IIRC

So it is. Out of idle curiosity, did anyone at Wizards ever think about what they were making?

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-24, 10:27 AM
They put Gnome Illustionist, Shadowcraft Mage and Earth Spell in the same book.

No.

2xMachina
2011-01-24, 10:38 AM
So it is. Out of idle curiosity, did anyone at Wizards ever think about what they were making?

Action points were supposed to be VERY limited. You only get a few at each lvl up. Use them all, and you're dry. In that setting, Action Points also have other good uses, so it is a rather OK feat.

The problem was they forgot they made a spell that gives 1 action points per round.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-24, 11:02 AM
I was referring to the spell, not the feat. The feat looks like it sucks without the spell.

Also, I forgot about Void Disciple and Ur-Priest when I asked.

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-24, 11:06 AM
Oh, they're not the scary ones.

Tainted Scholar, Dweomerkeeper, Beholder Mage, and Illithid Savant are the scary ones.

Halae
2011-01-24, 11:10 AM
where is beholder mage anyways? I've never been able to find it

CycloneJoker
2011-01-24, 11:21 AM
Oh, they're not the scary ones.

Tainted Scholar, Dweomerkeeper, Beholder Mage, and Illithid Savant are the scary ones.

Agreed, except Tainted Scholar. I can't figure out how it works, though I haven't had much of a chance to more than skim the book.


where is beholder mage anyways? I've never been able to find it

Lords of Madness.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 11:27 AM
Agreed, except Tainted Scholar. I can't figure out how it works, though I haven't had much of a chance to more than skim the book.Tainted Scholar basically gets arbitrarily large score to the spellcasting stat, meaning huge numbers of bonus spells/spell slots and huge save DCs.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-24, 11:32 AM
Tainted Scholar basically gets arbitrarily large score to the spellcasting stat, meaning huge numbers of bonus spells/spell slots and huge save DCs.

Oh, I see. Wouldn't he also be dependent on high wisdom, though?

2xMachina
2011-01-24, 11:41 AM
No. They cast based on Taint. Which they get when they cast spells... And they ignore the bad effects of their self-acquired taint (except for some crazyness)

No one mentioned Planar Shepperd yet?

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-24, 11:46 AM
Plana Shepherd and Incantrix have a limited number of gamebreaking abilities, whereas the 4 I mentioned rapidly decay into an infinite resource situation.

CycloneJoker
2011-01-24, 11:49 AM
No. They cast based on Taint. Which they get when they cast spells... And they ignore the bad effects of their self-acquired taint (except for some crazyness)

No one mentioned Planar Shepperd yet?

Yes, but they need wisdom to get more taint without repeatedly muttering (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadnessMantra)"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081505/quotes)

shadow_archmagi
2011-01-24, 12:28 PM
Yes, but they need wisdom to get more taint without repeatedly muttering (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadnessMantra)"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081505/quotes)

I believe the solution to that was

Step 1. Be an undead
Step 2. There is no step 2 you're done now you're immune to all side effects of taint.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 12:55 PM
I believe the solution to that was

Step 1. Be an undead
Step 2. There is no step 2 you're done now you're immune to all side effects of taint.

And you radiate evil like no one's business. Good clerics will gang up on you and turn you really soon. Tainted Scholar gives you high DCs and a lot of spell slots, but even that might not be enough against a bunch of higher level clerics.
Have fun with your unholy engine of destrucion, it might last one session or two.

Of course, most DMs would just apply the DMG forcefully upon your head.

Myth
2011-01-24, 01:06 PM
Nitpick: Beholder Mage is a TPK machine. It's basically a more subtle "Rocks Fall" beatstick, because it can go supernova and wipe the party in one round.

I'ts still not infinite resources like it's buddy the Illithid Savant and it's "Eat your brain = get your class levels" power.

Greenish
2011-01-24, 01:15 PM
And you radiate evil like no one's business. Good clerics will gang up on you and turn you really soon. Tainted Scholar gives you high DCs and a lot of spell slots, but even that might not be enough against a bunch of higher level clerics.
Have fun with your unholy engine of destrucion, it might last one session or two.Most anything can be killed by an encounter sufficiently deadly, and anything can be killed by DM fiat.

That doesn't mean that the PrC wouldn't be broken.

term1nally s1ck
2011-01-24, 01:18 PM
When you can cast an unlimited amount of AoE save or dies with a nigh-infinite DC, it's rare that any number of clerics could kill you without A) Divine intervention, or B) CAtching you at a lower level.

true_shinken
2011-01-24, 01:22 PM
Most anything can be killed by an encounter sufficiently deadly, and anything can be killed by DM fiat.

That doesn't mean that the PrC wouldn't be broken.

Did I ever say it wasn't broken?
While anything can be killed, undead can be very easily killed by good clerics. An encounter with a priest of Pelor, a bad initiative roll and you're already dead.

Psyren
2011-01-24, 02:10 PM
Yes, but they need wisdom to get more taint without repeatedly muttering (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadnessMantra)"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081505/quotes)

Which is why you go Subverted Ardent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a), for tainty goodness and Wis-based casting :smalltongue:

mootoall
2011-01-24, 03:45 PM
Which is why you go Subverted Ardent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a), for tainty goodness and Wis-based casting :smalltongue: Psyren, is there anything you don't know about psionics?

Psyren
2011-01-24, 04:05 PM
Psyren, is there anything you don't know about psionics?

Lots! For starters, I don't know why Blues love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch.

mootoall
2011-01-24, 06:25 PM
Lots! For starters, I don't know why Blues love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch.

Is it because it sparkles like Maenid skin?

CycloneJoker
2011-01-24, 07:23 PM
Which is why you go Subverted Ardent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a), for tainty goodness and Wis-based casting :smalltongue:


Lots! For starters, I don't know why Blues love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch.

Did I mention I love you in the most non-homo way possible?