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Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 04:14 PM
I'm playing in a gestalt game currently. My question is this...

1. Should we give people bonuses for playing a poor tier combos?

EXAMPLE: Fighter(tier 5) / Soulknife(tier 5) or Ninja(tier 5) / Paladin(tier 5)

I'm playing a Wizard(tier 1) / Bard(tier 3), so I'm starting to outpace the lower tier combos.

2. If we give a bonus to these people, what should the bonus be?

One last question.

3. If you were in a non-gestalt game, would you as a dungeon master give bonuses to the person that chose to play a weak class?

snoopy13a
2011-01-21, 04:18 PM
I don't think you need to give out bonuses or anything and you shouldn't have a problem if:

1) The DM is able to adjust NPC difficulty correctly to reflect weaker PCs
2) The weaker PCs are fine with being overshadowed

Just give the players a heads-up that their potential characters are weak and if they are fine with it, let it go. If they aren't fine with it then they should be allowed to re-roll more effective characters.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 04:24 PM
I don't think you need to give out bonuses or anything and you shouldn't have a problem if:

1) The DM is able to adjust NPC difficulty correctly to reflect weaker PCs
2) The weaker PCs are fine with being overshadowed

Just give the players a heads-up that their potential characters are weak and if they are fine with it, let it go. If they aren't fine with it then they should be allowed to re-roll more effective characters.

The problem with out group is this...

No one knows about the tier system except for me and one other person. Even the dungeon master is ignorant about the tier system.

The two people that know about the tier system have Tier 1/Tier 3 characters. Everyone else has Tier 3/Tier 5 or Tier 4/Tier 5. We are only level 6 now, but I know the power level spread is only going to widen as we go up in levels.

I was going to try to inform my DM what the tier system is and that he should give bonuses of some kind to the people with a weak teir combo. I just don't know what to suggest.

Re-rolling characters is just not feasable for the sake of the story.

Godskook
2011-01-21, 04:26 PM
Personally, I would suggest similar classes which sit in a higher tier, but fulfill the same rough mechanics. For that fighter//soulblade, suggest a warblade//psychic warrior with the Soulbound weapon ACF. For the Ninja//Paladin, suggest a Crusader//Factotum, Crusader//Swift Hunter, Crusader//Swordsage, Crusader//Rogue or a Crusader//Arcane Rogue(If your DM allows hybrids in gestalt)

Emperor Ing
2011-01-21, 04:28 PM
It's gonna make everything complicated. I would suggest talking to your DM (and only your DM) about this and discuss ways to adjust encounters to play to their gestalt class concept's strengths. The worst that can happen is that one or both of your Tier 1/Tier 3 characters are better at their strengths.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 04:28 PM
Personally, I would suggest similar classes which sit in a higher tier, but fulfill the same rough mechanics. For that fighter//soulblade, suggest a warblade//psychic warrior with the Soulbound weapon ACF. For the Ninja//Paladin, suggest a Crusader//Factotum, Crusader//Swift Hunter, Crusader//Swordsage, Crusader//Rogue or a Crusader//Arcane Rogue(If your DM allows hybrids in gestalt)

I can make suggestions to what classes they should play if their characters die, but like I said before, re-rolling characters won't work for story reasons. We might be able to convince the DM to allow us to do a re-build quest, but that won't be for several more levels since we are in the middle of a dungeon.

Even if I make suggestions, there is no gaurantee they would accept the suggestions.

Should we help them if they decide to play another Tier 5 / Tier 5 gestalt character?

Greenish
2011-01-21, 04:33 PM
The two people that know about the tier system have Tier 1/Tier 3 characters. Everyone else has Tier 3/Tier 5 or Tier 4/Tier 5. We are only level 6 now, but I know the power level spread is only going to widen as we go up in levels.:smallconfused:

You know about tiers, and then decided to play higher tiers than the others?

Anyhow, have you had actual problems? I mean, tiers don't reflect the power of individual characters, but the potential of the class.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 04:35 PM
:smallconfused:

You know about tiers, and then decided to play higher tiers than the others?

Anyhow, have you had actual problems? I mean, tiers don't reflect the power of individual characters, but the potential of the class.

None of us knew what everyone else was playing. The DM wouldn't let us share that information with each other. All we were allowed to say was, "I'm playing the healer", or "I'm playing the tank", etc...

And yes, the last two sessions we have had problems. Both of us Tier 1 players have started to take over the downtime stuff and the combat. I just know it's going to get worse.

Greenish
2011-01-21, 04:37 PM
None of us knew what everyone else was playing. The DM wouldn't let us share that information with each other. All we were allowed to say was, "I'm playing the healer", or "I'm playing the tank", etc...That seems like a cue to head for the lower tiers. :smallamused:

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 04:39 PM
That seems like a cue to head for the lower tiers. :smallamused:

You mean re-roll a character? We can't due to story reasons. I have a "quarter" ready, and it's a Tier 3 / Tier 3 combo in case my character dies.

Greenish
2011-01-21, 04:41 PM
You mean re-roll a character?I meant this is something you should've thought when making the character.

But, have the tier discrepancies actually disrupted the fun?

grimbold
2011-01-21, 04:44 PM
tiers are an integral part of the game, sometimes you just have to deal. Thats the way it is, you play a tier 5 character, well at higher levels it kind of sucks.

however a good way to add power is to have a lot of magic items for the warriors

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 04:46 PM
I meant this is something you should've thought when making the character.

But, have the tier discrepancies actually disrupted the fun?

Not for me or the other tier 1 player. I have a blast because I'm so powerful, and unless we have an uber difficult fight, I don't see my character dying, so I doubt I'll ever bring in my weaker tier quarter.

I'm not sure how much fun the tier 3-5 players have. I do know that during combat, my turn takes 5-10 minutes and the tier 3-5 players turn takes only 30 seconds to a minute.

aquaticrna
2011-01-21, 04:52 PM
an option for you in particular (don't know about the other high tier player) is to change your spell selection so that you focus more heavily on buffs and some crowd control, so the other players feel like they're being really effective even though it's all the work of the high tier characters.

Greenish
2011-01-21, 04:54 PM
I do know that during combat, my turn takes 5-10 minutes and the tier 3-5 players turn takes only 30 seconds to a minute.:smallbiggrin: What in nine hells are you doing?

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 05:01 PM
an option for you in particular (don't know about the other high tier player) is to change your spell selection so that you focus more heavily on buffs and some crowd control, so the other players feel like they're being really effective even though it's all the work of the high tier characters.

That would be a great idea, however I'm playing a Transmutation Focused Specialist Wizard with Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromance as barred schools. I don't have much in the way of crowd control. Right now I can animate 9 colossal sized weapons at the same time, and then I can make them do even more damage by casting Greater Magic Weapon and other spells to increase the damage of weapons. This is kind of my gimic, but it's a powerhouse in combat. Plus, I have a ton of stuff I do outside combat (Fabricate, Unseen Crafters, Hardening, Explosive Rune bombs, etc...)

On the other side, I'm playing a Bard that is focused on Inspire Courage. In fact, almost all my feats or spells are about boosting my bardic music (Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Inspirational Boost, etc...). As a bard, I have a few healing spells and utility spells, but nothing usable for combat or crowd control.

Everyone seems to want to avoid answering my original questions. :smallconfused:

1. Should we give people bonuses for playing a poor tier combos?

2. If we give a bonus to these people, what should the bonus be?

3. If you were in a non-gestalt game, would you as a dungeon master give bonuses to the person that chose to play a weak class?

JaronK
2011-01-21, 05:05 PM
None of us knew what everyone else was playing. The DM wouldn't let us share that information with each other.

This situation is exactly why I hate it when DMs do this... unless they're willing to give the power they want from the builds when they do it. In other words, they have to know about the Tiers.

For now, an obvious suggestion would be to have the DM "randomly" drop loot that makes the weaker players more awesome, and for the stronger characters to just let them have it. For example, I bet that Fighter/Soulknife or Paladin/Ninja would love a nice +1 Valorous Lance, and the latter character has horrible MAD so if a Belt of Magnificence dropped that might be quite good. Maybe a few custom items, like a blessed Katana that only works for Paladins or a book of ancient Ninjutsu secrets that gives extra uses of Ki to Ninjas?

Meanwhile, the stronger classes should focus on debuffing enemies (not too much though, or it'll get obvious who's really doing the fighting) and buffing allies. Perhaps you could take Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, and other Inspire Courage boosting abilities, and focus pre buffing with Wizard spells (Greater Magic Weapon, for example) and then using Inspire Courage as your primary thing in combat? Effectively, the idea is to channel your power through your allies, making them a conduit so they don't feel out of the loop. Polymorph the Ninja/Paladin into a 12 Headed Hydra so he gets to go nuts in the surprise round or something like that. Plus, the DM could make sure the loot you get helps them... like magical Masterwork War Drums that increase Inspire Courage bonuses.

JaronK

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 05:09 PM
Meanwhile, the stronger classes should focus on debuffing enemies (not too much though, or it'll get obvious who's really doing the fighting) and buffing allies. Perhaps you could take Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, and other Inspire Courage boosting abilities, and focus pre buffing with Wizard spells (Greater Magic Weapon, for example) and then using Inspire Courage as your primary thing in combat? Effectively, the idea is to channel your power through your allies, making them a conduit so they don't feel out of the loop.

Did I just "Ninja" you? :smallbiggrin:

That's exactly what I'm doing. My turn still takes a lot more time though and I'm outpacing my companions in damage. Combat normally lasts less than 5 rounds, so my first round is when I use the inspire courage effect. After that, I mop up the enemies typically.

Godskook
2011-01-21, 05:22 PM
Everyone seems to want to avoid answering my original questions. :smallconfused:

Cause your actual questions are more difficult to respond to than your situation is.


1. Should we give people bonuses for playing a poor tier combos?

That really depends on a lot of things, the most important of which is if everyone is having fun or not.


2. If we give a bonus to these people, what should the bonus be?

Don't know, depends on your group, and the optimization levels of the higher-tier players.


3. If you were in a non-gestalt game, would you as a dungeon master give bonuses to the person that chose to play a weak class?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and often would depend on how much optimization the group is using versus the players who are in the lower tier classes. My current campaign consists of:

Wizard 3 - He's planning on being a gish, and is working towards it, but for now, he's got most of the high-powered options available, but is suffering from his poor chassis and running out of spells despite being a focused specialist(work days sometimes last that long at my table)

Warblade 2 - Made of potency in this group, and is going to stay strong for quite a few levels without any effort.

Scout 2 - He's going for Swift Hunter, and I gave him one beneficial houserule. He gets the Rogue skill list. Since he's the only skill monkey, he controls his own usefulness, and is doing quite well, but I think the rogue list has helped a little here.

Artificer 2 - I've allowed him to make scrolls on the fly(read: less than full-day's work), and I houseruled action points into a game that didn't have them before for him, but "gets to use class features he was already supposed to have access to" isn't much of a boon as it is allowing him to play his class.

Cleric 2 - New to the group, and might not be long for it either.

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 05:27 PM
For arguments sake, lets say that the Tier 3-5 classes arn't having as much fun as the Tier 1-2 players.

Should we give a bonus of some kind to the tier 3-5 players? Also, what should that bonus be?

More experience? More items? Bonus feats? Bonus ability points?

Greenish
2011-01-21, 05:29 PM
For arguments sake, lets say that the Tier 3-5 classes arn't having as much fun as the Tier 1-2 players.

Should we give a bonus of some kind to the tier 3-5 players? Also, what should that bonus be?

More experience? More items? Bonus feats? Bonus ability points?I very much doubt there's a "one size fits all" solution to this.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-21, 05:36 PM
Well, in the one game I played where we pretended to give a **** about the tier system, the DM had us use point buy for ability scores, with the number of points being based on the character's tier (it was a very high powered campaign). I'm sure the chart he used is floating around in the murky abyss of the internet somewhere...

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 05:36 PM
I very much doubt there's a "one size fits all" solution to this.

But you do agree that they should be helped in some fashion?


Well, in the one game I played where we pretended to give a **** about the tier system, the DM had us use point buy for ability scores, with the number of points being based on the character's tier (it was a very high powered campaign). I'm sure the chart he used is floating around in the murky abyss of the internet somewhere...

That's kind of what I was leaning toward. Giving the weaker tier characters bonus ability score points.

Kylarra
2011-01-21, 05:42 PM
To be honest, any number of minor numerical bonuses aren't going to do much to bridge the gap between tier 1/2 and everything else, since spells> all.

claricorp
2011-01-21, 05:48 PM
A simple way to do it is to give rather meaty magic items to the less powerful character, however make sure that the character is going to truely want the item and that the more powerful dont use it.

Another more simple way to do things is to give a bit more spell/energy resist to encounters, as most higher tier characters are casters, which seems to hold pretty true for your group at least.

As the player, try to self limit your power slightly, for example a cleric could refuse to cast spells that slow movement, as it is against there religion of freedom for all or whatever. As a wizard, avoid conjuration/illusion/divination magic, it makes your character uncomfortable. Still use it in do or die situations, but not in your average encounter or day.

JaronK
2011-01-21, 05:48 PM
Did I just "Ninja" you? :smallbiggrin:

No, you're playing T1-3. You Artificer//Swordsaged me.


That's exactly what I'm doing. My turn still takes a lot more time though and I'm outpacing my companions in damage. Combat normally lasts less than 5 rounds, so my first round is when I use the inspire courage effect. After that, I mop up the enemies typically.

Consider doing less mop up to conserve spells? Also consider the War Weaver PrC so you can better buff allies.

JaronK

Kansaschaser
2011-01-21, 05:49 PM
To be honest, any number of minor numerical bonuses aren't going to do much to bridge the gap between tier 1/2 and everything else, since spells> all.

True. I could just forego telling the DM about the tier system and we could continue on our merry way.

Greenish
2011-01-21, 05:50 PM
But you do agree that they should be helped in some fashion?If everyone isn't having fun, something ought to be done, and it's everyone's duty to try to help everyone have fun.

Chambers
2011-01-21, 05:54 PM
You mean re-roll a character? We can't due to story reasons. I have a "quarter" ready, and it's a Tier 3 / Tier 3 combo in case my character dies.

I second the suggestion to change the characters. The Crusader//Factotum sounds really cool.

You don't have to view it as re-rolling a character. The character's personality, background, etc can all be the same. All you're changing is the game mechanics, and the new mechanics can be fluffed in whatever way would fit for the character.

So, I wouldn't recommend giving the 5//5's a bonus that the higher tiers don't get. I'd recommend changing the characters classes. They'd play the same character but with better mechanics.