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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5e, PEACH] Warlock Fix



Fable Wright
2011-01-21, 05:03 PM
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Invocations|Eldrit ch Enhancement
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Eldritch Blast 1d6, Detect Magic, Least Invocations|1|0
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Arcane Mimicry, Mettle|2|0
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|Eldritch Blast 2d6, Damage Reduction 1/Cold Iron|2|0
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Deceive Item|3|1
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Eldritch Blast 3d6|3|1
6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|Lesser Invocations, Pact Ward|4|1
7th|+5|+2|+2|+5|Eldritch Blast 4d6, Pact Blessing, Damage Reduction 2/Cold Iron|4|2
8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|Fiendish Resilience 1|5|2
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|Dual Blast, Eldritch Blast 5d6|5|2
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|Pact Ward|6|3
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7|Eldritch Blast 6d6, Greater Invocations, Damage Reduction 3/Cold Iron|7|3
12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Imbue Item, Pact Blessing|7|3
13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Eldritch Blast 7d6, Fiendish Resilience 2|8|4
14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|Offer Pact, Pact Ward|8|4
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Eldritch Blast 8d6, Damage Reduction 4/Cold Iron|9|4
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Triblast, Dark Invocation|10|5
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Eldritch Blast 9d6, Pact Blessing|10|5
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|Pact Ward, Fiendish Resilience 5|11|5
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Eldritch Blast 10d6, Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron|11|6
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Dark Ascension|12|6[/table]
Eldritch Blast (Sp): As the warlock ability.
Invocations: As the warlock ability.
Arcane Mimicry: At Second level, the Warlock gains a modicum of Arcane power. By studying the tomes of knowledge of other spellcasters, the warlock can attune their energy to one form of magic, and through their studies, wield it. Select one class: Dread Necromancer, Warmage, or Beguiler. When you gain this ability, and again at every time you gain a warlock level, select two spells on the spell list of the class you chose. These spells may not be of a level higher than 1/2 your warlock class level. A number of times per day equal to 1+ your charisma modifier, you may cast one spell from your list of spells known. You must have an intelligence score equal to or greater than 10+ the spell's level to cast the spell. Save DCs from the spells are calculated using your charisma modifier as their casting stat. After using this feat, you may not use your Eldritch blast for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 the spell's level (Rounded up). If, for some reason, you cannot use your Eldritch Blast, you may not cast spells using this feat. You may not cast a number of spells whose total spell level exceeds your warlock level + your charisma modifier in one day. Level 0 spells count as level 1/2 spells for this purpose. You do not count as being able to cast spells by means of this feat.
Detect Magic: You may use detect magic, as the spell, at will.
Mettle: At 2nd level or higher, if a warlock makes a successful fortitude or will saving throw against an attack that normally has a partial effect on a successful save, they instead takes no damage.
Damage Reduction: At third level, the warlock gains damage reduction 1/cold iron. This increases by 1 for every 4 levels the warlock has.
Deceive item: As the warlock ability.
Pact Ward: At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a warlock may gain one of the abilities from the following list. The effects stack.

Damage Reduction: The warlock gains damage reduction 2/cold iron, or existing damage reduction increases by 3.
Energy Resistance: The warlock gains energy resistance 10 to one chosen element, or existing energy resistance increases by 15.
Fast Healing: The warlock gains fast healing 1, or existing fast healing increases by 2. This cannot bring a warlock above half health.
Spell Resistance: The warlock gains spell resistance equal to 9+ it's class levels, or it's existing spell resistance increases by 3.

Eldritch Enhancement: As the warlock gains levels, they gain additional invocations to their standard invocations known, as shown on the table above. The Eldritch Enhancement invocations may only be used to obtain blast shape or eldritch essence invocations.
Pact blessing: At seventh level, and every 5 levels thereafter, the warlock gains a Pact blessing from the list below. The abilities stack unless otherwise noted, and none of them may be taken multiple times unless otherwise noted.

Frightful Presence: Whenever the warlock attacks, all foes within 60ft must make a will save (DC = 10+1/2 warlock level+cha modifier) or be shaken for 2d6 rounds. Regardless of whether or not they successfully save, they are immune to additional uses of this power for 24 hours.
Unholy Speed: The warlock's gains a +10 enhancement bonus to their base land speed. This ability may be selected multiple times. The effects stack.
Unnatural Power: The warlock deals an additional point of damage per die of damage their eldritch blast does.
Inhuman Accuracy: The warlock gains a +2 bonus on all ranged attack rolls.
See Beyond Sight: The warlock gains blindsense 30ft. If they already have blindsense, they gain blindsight out to 15ft, or the range of their blindsight increases by 15ft, and their blindsense extends out an additional 15ft. This ability may be selected may be selected multiple times. The effects stack.

Fiendish Resilience: As the warlock ability
Double Blast: At 9th level, you may take a full-round action to fire two eldritch blasts at your highest base attack bonus. However, each one takes a -2 penalty on the attack roll, and you may only apply blast shapes and essences of a grade lower than the highest one you have access to. You may only use eldritch essences or blast shapes that have an activation time of 1 standard action or less. I.e., no Eldritch Glaive.
Imbue Item: As the warlock ability.
Offer Pact: At 14th level, you gain the ability to offer others the powers you have now, but at a price. Once per month in an hour-long ritual, you may create a deal with another willing, sentient being, offering dark powers in exchange for their life energy. Once this pact is made, you lose access to one invocation of your choice, and the being you make the pact with gains one least invocation of their choice. However, there is a cost: The constitution of the creature you make the pact with will decrease by 2. As long as the creature is alive, you gain a +2 bonus to constitution. You may only have 3 active pacts at a time.
Triblast: At 16th level, when you use your Double Blast ability, you may fire a third eldritch blast. However, if you do, all attacks made in that round take a -3 penalty on the attack roll (Which does not stack with the penalty from Double Blast).
Dark Ascension: At 20th level, you have amassed enough power to become immortal, claiming the full benefit of your pact. Your type changes to Outsider (native), becoming a creature of pure magic, though you may still be raised as normal. You no longer suffer penalties for aging, but you no longer gain any bonuses. Bonuses and penalties previously incurred do not change. In addition, you may maintain a number of pacts equal to your charisma modifier instead of the normal 3, and you may grant any creature you make a pact with access to one Pact Ward that you possess. Finally, you are immune to 3rd level spells and lower, and you may suppress or resume this ability as a free action. You also gain energy resistance 10 to all elements, or increasing existing energy resistance by 10. Your spell resistance, if any, is increased by 5. Fast healing may now take you up to your max health, and while you are below 50% health, the rate of your fast healing doubles. In addition, using Arcane Mimicry no longer causes you to lose the ability to use an Eldritch Blast, and a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your class level + your charisma modifier, you may cast a spell with arcane mimicry, use an invocation, or make an Eldritch Blast as a Swift action. Finally, a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your constitution modifier, you may use one of the above abilities as an immediate action rather than a swift action. This still expends uses per day as if they were used as a swift action.


This is my attempt to fix the warlock. The class has awesome flavor, and can be fun to play, but it's really restricting at times, and the damage and invocations can be subpar. This was aimed at making the warlock into a tier 3 class. Comments/critiques/criticisms would be appreciated.

Alrox
2011-01-21, 05:52 PM
This looks to be quite an impressive rework! The ability to cast a small number of spells from those lists adds a decent amount of utility to them.
The pact abilities are a nice add on, and the iterative eldritch blasts really make up for its limited power.
All in all, I'm greatly impressed, and will be using this for my upcoming game on Sunday! :smallbiggrin:

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 05:56 PM
I made a Warlock fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72783) a long while ago, but that was more focused on acknowledging that you could become a warlock through something other than demons, rather than trying to bring up the power level. I feel like these two goals could be combined. :smallsmile: With that said, diving into the crunch!


I like Arcane Mimicry. The restrictions are good, and they're like more powerful invocations this way.
Mettle at second level makes this Warlock a great 2 level dip. Various utility invocations, Detect Magic, Mettle, and two low level spells castable per day? Nice. (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that dipping would occur)
Pact Ward's DR overlaps with normally granted DR. Just have it boost the DR by 3 and you're golden.
Eldritch Enhancement means that most warlocks will be getting most, if not all the invocations they could want. But this is more an issue with the limited number of invocations rather than the ability itself.
Frightful Presence wording needs to be cleaned up. If regardless?
Is Unholy Speed an enhancement bonus?
See Beyond Sight should be selectable multiple times.
Double blast will certainly up the damage capabilities...but what happens when it is paired with something like Utterdark Blast? Can you hit the same target twice int eh same round and grant 4 negative levels? I'd say it needs to be amended that any aditional effects can only affect a target once, regardless of how many times you hit them in a round.
Offer Pact needs to be bolded. :smallsmile: it is an awesomely flavorful ability, but I'm not sure how useful a conditional bonus to Con is going to be to a primarily long ranged class. Especially since it depends so heavily upon the DM.
Triblast has the same concerns as Double Blast.
Dark Ascension sucks. I would never feel compelled to pick it up. It needs to serious boosting to be relevant. Triblast would make a better capstone at this point.


Hope my comments are helpful! :smallsmile:

Fable Wright
2011-01-21, 06:17 PM
I like Arcane Mimicry. The restrictions are good, and they're like more powerful invocations this way.
Mettle at second level makes this Warlock a great 2 level dip. Various utility invocations, Detect Magic, Mettle, and two low level spells castable per day? Nice. (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that dipping would occur)
Pact Ward's DR overlaps with normally granted DR. Just have it boost the DR by 3 and you're golden.
It does. At the end of the ability description, actually. The reason it occasionally just grants plain DR/Cold iron is for warlock substitution levels that take away that base DR.
Eldritch Enhancement means that most warlocks will be getting most, if not all the invocations they could want. But this is more an issue with the limited number of invocations rather than the ability itself.
Well, most warlocks spend their invocations known on utility invocations for the most part, save for a few choice blast shapes. I wanted to give warlocks the ability to maximize the number of utility invocations they had, while still allowing them a healthy amount of blast shapes and essences. It can be hard to balance them sometimes, and the sheer number of invocations there are. However, they still only get 3 utility invocations of each grade without feats, which still makes it so that they still feel some pinch of not everything they want.
Frightful Presence wording needs to be cleaned up. If regardless?
Is Unholy Speed an enhancement bonus?
See Beyond Sight should be selectable multiple times.
Fixing the wording on all of the above.
Double blast will certainly up the damage capabilities...but what happens when it is paired with something like Utterdark Blast? Can you hit the same target twice int eh same round and grant 4 negative levels? I'd say it needs to be amended that any aditional effects can only affect a target once, regardless of how many times you hit them in a round.
Actually, I'm thinking this: You may not use any invocations of the highest grade that you possess while making a double blast or triblast. That reasonable?
Offer Pact needs to be bolded. :smallsmile: it is an awesomely flavorful ability, but I'm not sure how useful a conditional bonus to Con is going to be to a primarily long ranged class. Especially since it depends so heavily upon the DM.
That was intentional. It's supposed to be a more flavorful ability than a mechanical one, possibly creating alliances between the warlock and some NPCs, but also for roleplaying benefits.
Triblast has the same concerns as Double Blast.
Dark Ascension sucks. I would never feel compelled to pick it up. It needs to serious boosting to be relevant. Triblast would make a better capstone at this point.
It used to also allow you to have a total number of pacts up to your Charisma modifier, but I can't really think of any good abilities to give it aside from that. Possibly also grant people you make a pact with access to a Pact Ward.


Hope my comments are helpful! :smallsmile:

Yes, they were. Responses bolded above.



This looks to be quite an impressive rework! The ability to cast a small number of spells from those lists adds a decent amount of utility to them.
The pact abilities are a nice add on, and the iterative eldritch blasts really make up for its limited power.
All in all, I'm greatly impressed, and will be using this for my upcoming game on Sunday! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 07:06 PM
Shiny. I wasn't aware of any racial sub levels for warlock, but I guess its good to cover just in case.:smallsmile:
Fair enough. Like I said, not really an issue, I just wish there were a larger selection of Invocations.
Shiny.
That would be great. It would add some extra oomph to gaining access to new levels of invocations too, which would be great.
As long as you weren't expecting it to carry the level. :smallsmile: Good to see some flavor abilities.
Increasing the abilities of Offer Pact is a great flavor boost, something I would definitely include. Aside from that, you could turn your chosen Pact Wards and Pact Blessings up to 11. You could allow unlimited access to some of the spells chosen with Arcane Mimicry. and I'm sure others can think of more!


A swing at improving Dark Ascention:

At 20th level, you have amassed enough power to become immortal, claiming the full benefit of your pact. Your type changes to Outsider (native), becoming a creature of pure magic, though you may still be raised as normal. In addition, you may maintain a number of pacts equal to your charisma modifier instead of the normal 3, and you may grant any creature you make a pact with access to one Pact Ward that you possess.

Double all damage resistance and energy resistance gained through your pact ward. If you had resist 20+ to any energy type, you become immune to that type. Any fast healing gained from your pact ward becomes regeneration, overcome only by XXX. Add 6 to any spell resistance granted by your pact ward. If that spell resistance was 15 + you class level or higher you are immune to 3rd level spells and lower, and you may suppress or resume this ability as a free action.

Foes must successfully save twice in a row before becoming immune to the frightful presence granted by your pact blessing. Double the bonuses granted by your unholy speed pact blessing, and this bonus now applies to all forms of movement. If had +20' or more from your pact blessing increase the length of your 5' step by 5'. Each point of extra damage from unnatural power becomes an extra 1d4 of damage. The bonus from inhuman accuracy triples. Double the range of all vision types granted by see beyond sight. You gain a +10 bonus to listen, search, and spot checks for each time you selected see beyond sight.

Fable Wright
2011-01-21, 07:20 PM
Shiny. I wasn't aware of any racial sub levels for warlock, but I guess its good to cover just in case.:smallsmile:
Fair enough. Like I said, not really an issue, I just wish there were a larger selection of Invocations.
Shiny.
That would be great. It would add some extra oomph to gaining access to new levels of invocations too, which would be great.
As long as you weren't expecting it to carry the level. :smallsmile: Good to see some flavor abilities.
Increasing the abilities of Offer Pact is a great flavor boost, something I would definitely include. Aside from that, you could turn your chosen Pact Wards and Pact Blessings up to 11. You could allow unlimited access to some of the spells chosen with Arcane Mimicry. and I'm sure others can think of more!


A swing at improving Dark Ascention:

At 20th level, you have amassed enough power to become immortal, claiming the full benefit of your pact. Your type changes to Outsider (native), becoming a creature of pure magic, though you may still be raised as normal. In addition, you may maintain a number of pacts equal to your charisma modifier instead of the normal 3, and you may grant any creature you make a pact with access to one Pact Ward that you possess.

Double all damage resistance and energy resistance gained through your pact ward. If you had resist 20+ to any energy type, you become immune to that type. Any fast healing gained from your pact ward becomes regeneration, overcome only by XXX. Add 6 to any spell resistance granted by your pact ward. If that spell resistance was 15 + you class level or higher you are immune to 3rd level spells and lower, and you may suppress or resume this ability as a free action.

Foes must successfully save twice in a row before becoming immune to the frightful presence granted by your pact blessing. Double the bonuses granted by your unholy speed pact blessing, and this bonus now applies to all forms of movement. If had +20' or more from your pact blessing increase the length of your 5' step by 5'. Each point of extra damage from unnatural power becomes an extra 1d4 of damage. The bonus from inhuman accuracy triples. Double the range of all vision types granted by see beyond sight. You gain a +10 bonus to listen, search, and spot checks for each time you selected see beyond sight.

That's a bit... too much. It's greatly enhancing some none-too-minor abilities and is pretty much better than any other capstone. Most classes don't even have capstones. I'll just leave it gaining the bonus pacts and granting pact wards. And also the immunity to spells level 3 or lower, because it won't have too many effects on gameplay at that level, and it's just cool.

arguskos
2011-01-21, 07:25 PM
Shiny. I wasn't aware of any racial sub levels for warlock, but I guess its good to cover just in case.:smallsmile:
That's because there aren't any. This fix was produced for inclusion into Zaaman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172194)-Rul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183966), and DM has taken it upon himself to produce a prodigious amount of Warlock material, including many substitution levels (we're up to two already, and some supplemental feats). Thus, why things here might look a little wonky. :smallwink:

Also, DM, this really is getting into a good place overall. Let's keep the advice and whatnot flowing. :smallbiggrin:

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 07:47 PM
That's a bit... too much. It's greatly enhancing some none-too-minor abilities and is pretty much better than any other capstone. Most classes don't even have capstones. I'll just leave it gaining the bonus pacts and granting pact wards. And also the immunity to spells level 3 or lower, because it won't have too many effects on gameplay at that level, and it's just cool.

Well, I've always been of the opinion that most capstones suck. A capstone should make a compelling case as to why you should spend 20 levels in a class instead of dipping, or taking a PrC, or a powerful template, or what have you. A capstone should have a notable effect on gameplay, its a capstone! Imagine if wizard or cleric had a capstone. how good would it have to be to be worth not taking a PrC instead?

And from a flavor perspective, you've just become an outsider. You've just ascended. And all you get is the ability to make a couple more deals? Thanks, but I'll take that level of Mindbender instead.

Admittedly this is only my opinion. But if I spend 20 levels in a class, I want it to be worth it! :smallsmile:


That's because there aren't any. This fix was produced for inclusion into Zaaman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172194)-Rul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183966), and DM has taken it upon himself to produce a prodigious amount of Warlock material, including many substitution levels (we're up to two already, and some supplemental feats). Thus, why things here might look a little wonky. :smallwink:

Also, DM, this really is getting into a good place overall. Let's keep the advice and whatnot flowing. :smallbiggrin:

Ahh, shiny. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2011-01-21, 07:50 PM
Admittedly this is only my opinion. But if I spend 20 levels in a class, I want it to be worth it. :smallsmile:
Agreed, actually. I compare all capstones to that of the Knight. If they're not as good as the Knights (which is frikkin FANTASTIC, by the by), they're not worth it. And they better be, for you to go all 20 levels in a base class (something I've not actually seen in person in 10 years, since the very first days of 3.0).


Ahh, shiny. :smallbiggrin:
You know, you're always welcome over there too. :smallwink: I could use the help.

Fable Wright
2011-01-21, 08:10 PM
How about this: You gain energy resistance 10 to all elements, or increasing existing energy resistance by 10. Your spell resistance, if any, is increased by 5. Fast healing may now take you up to your max health, and while you are below 50% health, the rate of your fast healing doubles. In addition, using Arcane Mimicry no longer causes you to lose the ability to use an Eldritch Blast, and a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your class level + your charisma modifier, you may cast a spell with arcane mimicry, use an invocation, or make an Eldritch Blast as a Swift action. Finally, a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your constitution modifier, you may use one of the above abilities as an immediate action rather than a swift action. This still expends uses per day as if they were used as a swift action.

Opinions?

MammonAzrael
2011-01-21, 08:13 PM
I like it. Not completely tied to your pact, representing you coming into your own power. And it makes Con more relevant. While it isn't strong enough to be a capstone for a class like wizard or cleric, I think it is strong enough for a better designed class...like this one. :smallsmile:

Like Stance Mastery, you get some cool new toys.


You know, you're always welcome over there too. :smallwink: I could use the help.

Heh...I'll be sure to take a look when I've got some more time. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2011-01-21, 09:25 PM
Heh...I'll be sure to take a look when I've got some more time. :smallbiggrin:
You'll need it, but I swear, you'll be sucked in and won't want to leave (at least, that's the hope). :smallbiggrin:

Pyromancer999
2011-01-21, 09:54 PM
Arcane Mimicry: At third level, the Warlock gains a modicum of Arcane power. Select one class: Dread Necromancer, Warmage, or Beguiler. When you select this feat, and again at every time you gain a warlock level, select two spells on the spell list of the class you chose. These spells may not be of a level higher than 1/2 your warlock class level. A number of times per day equal to 1+ your charisma modifier, you may cast one spell from your list of spells known. You must have an intelligence score equal to or greater than 10+ the spell's level to cast the spell. Save DCs from the spells are calculated using your charisma modifier as their casting stat. After using this feat, you may not use your Eldritch blast for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 the spell's level (Rounded up). If, for some reason, you cannot use your Eldritch Blast, you may not cast spells using this feat. You may not cast a number of spells whose total spell level exceeds your warlock level in one day. Level 0 spells count as level 1/2 spells for this purpose. You do not count as being able to cast spells by means of this feat.


First off, let me say that I love this class. It is one of the best Warlock Fixes I've ever come across. and is at least in my top 10 class fixes of all time. Still, why the Intelligence score prerequisite for the casting of the spell? The Warlock's powers have usually been based off of their Charisma scores. Not saying you're wrong in doing this, just saying I don't get it.

Fable Wright
2011-01-21, 10:03 PM
First off, let me say that I love this class. It is one of the best Warlock Fixes I've ever come across. and is at least in my top 10 class fixes of all time. Still, why the Intelligence score prerequisite for the casting of the spell? The Warlock's powers have usually been based off of their Charisma scores. Not saying you're wrong in doing this, just saying I don't get it.

Mostly so that warlocks don't just dump in 2 stats- charisma and dex. It was intentional in an attempt to make more dynamic characters out of warlocks; i.e.,giving them some intelligence, which is normally a dump stat. Also, the original form of the ability was a feat, fluffing the ability as the warlock studying hard to gain spells beyond those of their lesser kin. However, as I incorporated it into the main class, this reasoning was lost somewhat. I'll try to add some more fluff to the description to help it make sense. Also, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

Fable Wright
2011-01-23, 01:24 PM
Bump...
Any opinion on power level/capstone/what have you?

blackmage
2011-01-24, 12:05 PM
I really like getting to pick the pact wards, instead of them being fixed. I also really like getting extra blast-only invocations, it gives a warlock more toys to play with but also limits it by restricting the choice for some of them.
Double/TriBlast are excellent. If there is worry about their power, maybe say that the AoE blast shapes can't be used with the ability.

And the pacts have flavor, but possibly also some actual use. If the party rogue has plenty of HP, but a bad Will save they want to beef up, they could get Dark One's Own Luck through the pact. Yeah, stuff like this is pretty situational and rare, but I think it's neat.

For Inhuman Accuracy, for people who use Hideous Blow or some other melee method, should it be reworded to apply to all Eldritch Blast attack rolls?

Fable Wright
2011-01-24, 12:11 PM
For Inhuman Accuracy, for people who use Hideous Blow or some other melee method, should it be reworded to apply to all Eldritch Blast attack rolls?
Actually, I hadn't thought of that... however, I'm going to keep it as is. The being that originally made the pact with the mortal would probably want to keep his investment alive as long as possible, and that as a pact ward rewards ranged combat as a combat strategy.

Amnestic
2011-01-24, 03:51 PM
Bump...
Any opinion on power level/capstone/what have you?

Well since you asked...

What does the "you become immortal" of Dark Ascension part entail, and how does it affect aging and the benefits/negatives associated with it?

Fable Wright
2011-01-24, 04:57 PM
Well since you asked...

What does the "you become immortal" of Dark Ascension part entail, and how does it affect aging and the benefits/negatives associated with it?

Ah, thanks for the catch. No more bonuses and penalties are gained, but already incurred ones are kept.

Burnheart
2011-01-26, 02:04 PM
Hi DMofDarkness i noticed something odd when looking over this
Damage Reduction: At third level, the warlock gains damage reduction 1/cold iron. This increases by 1 for every 4 levels the warlock has.

Pact Ward: At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a warlock may gain one of the abilities from the following list. The effects stack.

* Damage Reduction: The warlock gains damage reduction 2/cold iron, or existing damage reduction increases by 3.

Why does Pact ward give you DR/cold iron if you already have it?

blackmage
2011-01-26, 02:09 PM
Addressed earlier, there are substitution levels in Zaaman-Rul that remove that class feature.

arguskos
2011-01-26, 02:11 PM
Addressed earlier, there are substitution levels in Zaaman-Rul that remove that class feature.
Bingo. This fix, as was stated by myself earlier, was commissioned for inclusion into that project, and thus has a few little oddities that would seem out of place normally.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-02-27, 05:07 PM
I think you should consider adding wizard to the classes available for arcane mimicry.

Zaydos
2011-02-27, 05:29 PM
I think you should consider adding wizard to the classes available for arcane mimicry.

No. The point is to give them access to some of the super specialized casters (wizards get all the spells currently available and then some). If that was done it would have to be: Or one school of wizard spells.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-02-27, 05:34 PM
No. The point is to give them access to some of the super specialized casters (wizards get all the spells currently available and then some). If that was done it would have to be: Or one school of wizard spells.

Ooh, yeah, a single school would work.

Zaydos
2011-02-27, 05:50 PM
Ooh, yeah, a single school would work.

I'd still actually advice against allowing Transmutation or Conjuration as those are terrifyingly powerful (Transmutation gives access to the polymorph line, Conjuration to Planar Binding and Gate). Divination wouldn't be too bad but most of its spells are cast out of combat making the cost of using one negligible.

Having looked over the class I have to say I don't like giving Mettle at Lv 2; I find it odd that Arcane Mimicry gives more 9th level spells per day than being a member of X class (although Versatile Spellcaster reverses that) but the cost of 3 rounds without blasts seems expensive enough.

How does Double Blast/Tri Blast work with Eldritch Glaive (I would say not at all) and currently if you are using a non-attack roll based Blast Shape it's -2 to hit is negated (not too bad as you can just cone).

20th level Hellfire Warlock would be scary with this (48d6+30 damage per round, average is almost 200 damage per round) I know 20th level wizards and sorcerers can cause that kind of damage without half trying but even so just cause tier 2s can do it doesn't make it not scary (uberchargers can too but an ubercharger is countered with anything that prevents charges, this is countered by total cover, or SR + Acid Immunity). And they can do it in a cone if need be.

Fable Wright
2011-02-27, 06:18 PM
I'd still actually advice against allowing Transmutation or Conjuration as those are terrifyingly powerful (Transmutation gives access to the polymorph line, Conjuration to Planar Binding and Gate). Divination wouldn't be too bad but most of its spells are cast out of combat making the cost of using one negligible.
So, basically, keep it as-is? We have: Illusion, Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy, we want to stay away from Conjuration and Transmutation, and Divination and Abjuration stray away from the flavor of the class.


Having looked over the class I have to say I don't like giving Mettle at Lv 2; I find it odd that Arcane Mimicry gives more 9th level spells per day than being a member of X class (although Versatile Spellcaster reverses that) but the cost of 3 rounds without blasts seems expensive enough.
Incorrect. I added a clause about that, "You may not cast a number of spells per day whose total level is greater than your warlock level". It's in there.
Also, with the level 2 mettle: That's the same level that the Rogue gets evasion, and it may be the same level that the Hexblade gets it at.


How does Double Blast/Tri Blast work with Eldritch Glaive (I would say not at all) and currently if you are using a non-attack roll based Blast Shape it's -2 to hit is negated (not too bad as you can just cone).
Well, the thing is, you can only do AoE at 16th level, given that you need dark invocations to pull it off, and this is about the time that the Dragonfire Adept is using the Five-Fold Breath of Tiamat. Which has an additional 2 effects on this shot. As a standard action. I think it's fine. It doesn't work with the glaive, as it takes a full round to make a full attack with the glaive, and you need that full round to fire off two invocations. I'll add a clause in there about that...


20th level Hellfire Warlock would be scary with this (48d6+30 damage per round, average is almost 200 damage per round) I know 20th level wizards and sorcerers can cause that kind of damage without half trying but even so just cause tier 2s can do it doesn't make it not scary (uberchargers can too but an ubercharger is countered with anything that prevents charges, this is countered by total cover, or SR + Acid Immunity). And they can do it in a cone if need be.
This class is a dedicated blaster. It pretty much deserves to have that kind of blasting power. But, that said, using the cone requires them to close into the range at which the monsters can hit them, they cannot overcome spell resistance as hellfire blast is an eldritch essence invocation, and it risks hitting allies. Having several big bruisers is a better tactic for the DM anyways, so the threat of them just killing the wad of health is not too big a threat as it's a combined total of more health, and using a full-round action is risky as it gives opponents a chance to move up close. Not to mention that the spell resistance from each one will take out a lot of the damage potential. In optimal circumstances, like an ubercharger, they will kill just about anything in one hit. However, like the ubercharger, this damage can be mitigated pretty badly. Plus they take con damage every round they do this; if they use a tri-blast, they take 3 points of con damage. Which is a lot, by the way.

jojolagger
2011-02-27, 08:12 PM
I like it. Looks good. 2 things.

1. I think Dark Ascension should let you use you're highest grade of invocations in a tri-blast. The invocations go up a tier every 5 levels, I don't see much problem giving dark invocations for blasts one level early.

2. I'd like to see some feats to grab an extra pact ward or pact blessing, or feats to power them up a bit, Because it looks like this warlock wouldn't need to spend feats on much.

Fable Wright
2011-02-27, 08:30 PM
I like it. Looks good. 2 things.

1. I think Dark Ascension should let you use you're highest grade of invocations in a tri-blast. The invocations go up a tier every 5 levels, I don't see much problem giving dark invocations for blasts one level early.

2. I'd like to see some feats to grab an extra pact ward or pact blessing, or feats to power them up a bit, Because it looks like this warlock wouldn't need to spend feats on much.

1. I'm rather hesitant about that, as Utterdark Blast and Eldritch Doom with a tri-blast can give zoning advantages and bestow 6 negative levels on people each round.

2. I'll go make some feats, then. Possibly also drawing on their Arcane Mimicry class, as well...

jojolagger
2011-02-28, 12:08 AM
1. I'm rather hesitant about that, as Utterdark Blast and Eldritch Doom with a tri-blast can give zoning advantages and bestow 6 negative levels on people each round.
It's level 20, Utterdark allows a fort save to negate, Eldritch doom allows a reflex for half. Anyone with evasion and a good reflex save is resistant, as is anyone with a good fort save.

Land Outcast
2011-02-28, 10:39 AM
Ah, thanks for the catch. No more bonuses and penalties are gained, but already incurred ones are kept.

Couldn't Dark Ascension just ignore aging penalties -as these are physical in origin- but allow for the bonuses? -mental in nature, from living and experiancing-

Or perhaps directly: ignore physical age modifiers but allow for mental ones? (to cover the child-warlock case).

Fable Wright
2011-02-28, 02:42 PM
Couldn't Dark Ascension just ignore aging penalties -as these are physical in origin- but allow for the bonuses? -mental in nature, from living and experiancing-

Or perhaps directly: ignore physical age modifiers but allow for mental ones? (to cover the child-warlock case).

Being turned immortal often has the side effect of arresting mental development- when you have literally forever to figure out a solution to a problem, and lesser beings cannot bother you in the slightest, you don't really learn how to interact well. And while you do slowly increase in how you interact with people over time, people change as fast as you develop- what was a popular or intriguing speech style is now dull, the way people show their personality changes, what happens is a net lack of development. Same for intelligence- you collect knowledge and facts from across the ages, but new developments prove much gained knowledge irrelevant or useless. It's the same basic mental shift that comes with being undead. See Libris Mortis for more details on that.

Pyromancer999
2011-02-28, 08:23 PM
Has it occurred to you that removing the Eldritch Blast delay after spell usage for the capstone basically means they get all 40 spells they've learned by now as at-will abilities?

jojolagger
2011-02-28, 08:38 PM
Has it occurred to you that removing the Eldritch Blast delay after spell usage for the capstone basically means they get all 40 spells they've learned by now as at-will abilities?

Max of total spell levels per day equal to you're Warlock levels.

Re'ozul
2011-02-28, 09:04 PM
Why not make that limit into Warlock level + Charisma Modifier for the capstone. It would be another reason to keep Charisma high without totally overpowering the ability. It would merely mean 3 lvl 9 spells instead of 2 (unless you seriously optimize your Charisma to 42 :smalleek:).

jojolagger
2011-02-28, 09:21 PM
Why not make that limit into Warlock level + Charisma Modifier for the capstone. It would be another reason to keep Charisma high without totally overpowering the ability.
Good idea, I like it.


It would merely mean 3 lvl 9 spells instead of 2 (unless you seriously optimize your Charisma to 42 :smalleek:).

If You have a Cha of 42, and want to cast lots of spells, you should have been a sorcerer.

Fable Wright
2011-02-28, 09:39 PM
Good idea, I like it.

I do, too. It's in.

Gideon Falcon
2011-02-28, 11:31 PM
I myself, in various stories I plan to write, think of the warlock in a different flavor; namely, they gain their powers through random chance and flukes of nature that make them a living repository of arcane energy, rather than being the result of some sort of pact. As such, I think it would be cool to create an ACF that replaces the offer pact ability with something that fits that kind of flavor, for those that prefer a warlock that is slightly less dark.

That's just my two cents.

shogahin
2011-03-02, 03:04 PM
While I think your rewrite is pretty awesome, it just seems to be a bit much on the maintenence of the class. Bookkeeping is a pain and for doesn't let me enjoy playing as much.. also I tend to forget abilities I have.

I hope I don't upset anyone but I would like to offer an alternative.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188886

Fable Wright
2011-03-02, 03:17 PM
While I think your rewrite is pretty awesome, it just seems to be a bit much on the maintenence of the class. Bookkeeping is a pain and for doesn't let me enjoy playing as much.. also I tend to forget abilities I have.

I hope I don't upset anyone but I would like to offer an alternative.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188886

That may be possible. However, if you use a normal, pen&paper character sheet, it doesn't really have too much bookkeeping. First off, your spells known never change, and many of the class features are passive bonuses on your sheet. They give you a nice bonus, and can be used in interesting ways, however they are not too much bookkeeping to maintain... just change the base statistics of the character, like base land speed, or damage reduction. The only bookkeeping issue that I see might be the Arcane Mimicry ability, but after a little while with the class it becomes no harder than the Sorcerer's spellcasting. As an added bonus, the spells from the selected classes hardly use spells out of the book that they are in or core, so you don't need to search for books. Finally, this is not the only warlock fix out there; an alternative isn't needed (as this is an alternative in itself), nor do I see one in the linked thread. This thread is mainly about discussing the mechanics of this fix, and how it could be improved- not a link to other fixes, except possibly as a place to add or improve abilities.

Gideon Falcon
2011-03-03, 05:46 PM
Perhaps this might be a good alternate class feature for this fix:

Fellfury (Su)
Your nature allows you to have unstable spikes in power, although you find that others cannot benefit from your pact.
Level: 14, 20
Replaces: Offer Pact Ability, and any future improvements. The other benefits of Dark Ascension are still gained.
Benefit: 3 times each day, as a free action, you draw further power from your pact for one round. During this round, all eldritch blasts you make are affected as if by the Empower spell feat. In addition, during that round you may use blast shape and eldritch essence invocations of your highest grade available when using a double blast or triblast.
Upon reaching 20th level, the Dark Ascension ability allows you to use this ability a number of times each day equal to your charisma modifier, the duration increases to two rounds, and your blasts are maximized instead of empowered. When using this ability, you may voluntarily reduce the duration back to a single round in order to both maximize and empower your blasts.

Re'ozul
2011-03-09, 04:34 PM
Sooo, any plans on an epic progression?
Mostly asking on wether Pact ward and pact blessings would continue in their rythm beyond lvl20.

Gideon Falcon
2011-03-12, 02:47 AM
I recently realized that one simple remedy for the warlock's lack of overall damage compared with other classes is to, perhaps, upgrade the Eldritch Blast to dealing damage in d8s. Whether this could be combined with this fix is probably arguable.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-12, 03:39 AM
I recently realized that one simple remedy for the warlock's lack of overall damage compared with other classes is to, perhaps, upgrade the Eldritch Blast to dealing damage in d8s. Whether this could be combined with this fix is probably arguable.

I'm afraid that wouldn't do much. All raising EB to d8s does is add, on average, 1 damage per die. So at 20th level warlocks would be dealing an extra 9 damage. iterative attacks like those offered here are much bigger, and even with those the damage isn't mind blowing.

Gideon Falcon
2011-03-12, 12:16 PM
Which is why I was considering applying BOTH. If that's not enough, hopefully d10s wouldn't be overdoing it too much. In any case, that change would also help alleviate dependence on d6's, which casting classes and rogues have been plagued with for o so long.

arguskos
2011-08-12, 02:25 PM
This is 5 months down the road, but DM, I felt I should give you a heads up about this.

I actually used this fix in my RL campaign about a month ago, and am about to use it again in the big finale. The NPC was an enemy doppleganger Warlock 5, and was quite effective. Arcane Mimicry let him prep with a good number of defensive spells (mirror image, blur) and he fired off a few glitterdusts and I think a charm person during combat. Combined with more standard Warlock trickery (wands via deceive item and eldritch glaive via being a warlock) and he was surprisingly effective. Sorry I didn't let you know earlier, but this definitely stands up to a field test at moderate levels without issue.