Two suns?

[CynicalAvocado]

Earth could be getting a second sun, at least temporarily. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/20/two-suns-twin-stars_n_811864.html)


Dr. Brad Carter, Senior Lecturer of Physics at the University of Southern Queensland, outlined the scenario to news.com.au. Betelgeuse, one of the night sky's brightest stars, is losing mass, indicating it is collapsing. It could run out of fuel and go super-nova at any time.

When that happens, for at least a few weeks, we'd see a second sun, Carter says. There may also be no night during that timeframe.

The Star Wars-esque scenario could happen by 2012, Carter says... or it could take longer. The explosion could also cause a neutron star or result in the formation of a black hole 1300 light years from Earth, reports news.com.au.

But doomsday sayers should be careful about speculation on this one. If the star does go super-nova, Earth will be showered with harmless particles, according to Carter. "They will flood through the Earth and bizarrely enough, even though the supernova we see visually will light up the night sky, 99 per cent of the energy in the supernova is released in these particles that will come through our bodies and through the Earth with absolutely no harm whatsoever," he told news.com.au.

In fact, a neutrino shower could be beneficial to Earth. According to Carter this "star stuff" makes up the universe. "It literally makes things like gold, silver - all the heavy elements - even things like uranium....a star like Betelgeuse is instantly forming for us all sorts of heavy elements and atoms that our own Earth and our own bodies have from long past supernovi," said Carter.

UPDATE: To clarify, the news.com.au article does not say a neutrino shower could be beneficial to Earth, but implies a supernova could be beneficial, stating, "Far from being a sign of the apocalypse, according to Dr Carter the supernova will provide Earth with elements necessary for survival and continuity."

[Leecros]

Predicting a supernova is harder than predicting an earthquake or a volcanic eruption. Admittedly it sounds cool, but the liklihood of it happening in our lifetime(or 2012 bleh ) Is still really low.

[Zanaril]

Like... a million to one? :smalltongue:

[TigerHunter]

Despite being picked up by a ton of major news networks, this story is crap (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/01/is-betelgeuse-about-to-blow/).


So my personal opinion is that this is just another breathless rumor of astronomical doomsday that we get every couple of years. Even if any of the science of it is right, it doesn’t mean Betelgeuse is about to explode any day now. And since this is a rumor three times removed, I don’t put any stock in it.

[Emperor Ing]

In fact, a neutrino shower could be beneficial to Earth. According to Carter this "star stuff" makes up the universe.

Yeah. Hydrogen, though flammible, is the most abundant element in the universe, though I expect more helium. That's not too bad.



"It literally makes things like gold, silver - all the heavy elements - even things like uranium....a star like Betelgeuse is instantly...


:smalleek:


uranium

D:

[arguskos]

Despite being picked up by a ton of major news networks, this story is crap (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/01/is-betelgeuse-about-to-blow/).
Damn, you beat me to it. I was going to post and explain the definition of sensationalist reporting, but you juked it out from under me! :smallbiggrin:

This is complete crap. Ignore it. We are no closer to predicting the time and date of a supernova than we are to being able to manipulate neutrons with our mind.

[Mando Knight]

And besides, even if it does go supernova, (that is, has exploded already), it'd be a while before a neutrino storm would blow through the Earth's orbit... unless someone has done the calculations to show that the supernova would likely accelerate the particles to a significant fraction of c.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Y'know, while this is garbage, there is something that makes me think. Have had reoccurring dreams of it going nova since I was six. Before I ever knew what the star's name was. Just 'that bright star over Orion's belt'.

*shrugs*

[Flickerdart]

We are no closer to predicting the time and date of a supernova than we are to being able to manipulate neutrons with our mind.

Y'know, while this is garbage, there is something that makes me think. Have had reoccurring dreams of it going nova since I was six. Before I ever knew what the star's name was. Just 'that bright star over Orion's belt'.
Vorpal can manipulate neutrons with his mind, you heard it here first folks.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Vorpal can manipulate neutrons with his mind, you heard it here first folks.
Huh, guess I got something new to add to my resume http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Demonweave]

Like... a million to one? :smalltongue:

But it might just work?

[Science Officer]

In fact, a neutrino shower could be beneficial to Earth. According to Carter this "star stuff" makes up the universe. "It literally makes things like gold, silver - all the heavy elements - even things like uranium....a star like Betelgeuse is instantly forming for us all sorts of heavy elements and atoms that our own Earth and our own bodies have from long past supernovi," said Carter.

UPDATE: To clarify, the news.com.au article does not say a neutrino shower could be beneficial to Earth, but implies a supernova could be beneficial, stating, "Far from being a sign of the apocalypse, according to Dr Carter the supernova will provide Earth with elements necessary for survival and continuity."

yeah.. it makes heavier elements... eventually.
and out where it is.
not on earth.
I don't believe neutrino showers have any effect, positive or negative, on earth. that's sort of why neutrinos are so difficult to detect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_detection).

also kind of hilarious how "mutated" (:smallbiggrin: I love how little sense that makes) neutrinos are the cause of catastrophic continental drift in the film 2012.


Edit: neutrinos, not neutrons, folks. rather hypoctritical of me, seeing as I made that mistake twice while writing this post.

[AsteriskAmp]

The loss of night hours would be awesome, too bad the story is improbable of happening. I guess it would be less wrong for me to stay without sleep for two continuous days.

[Leecros]

also kind of hilarious how "mutated" (:smallbiggrin: I love how little sense that makes) neutrinos are the cause of catastrophic continental drift in the film 2012.

That was a terrible film... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIUTUVVRtFA)

[Serpentine]

Like... a million to one? :smalltongue:Million to one chances happen 9 times out of 10!


It'd be pretty neat if we see it in our lifetimes...

[averagejoe]

Yeah, however implausible it is, it's cool enough that I'm still hoping.

[Traab]

I for one welcome oblivion.

[Ted_Stryker]

And besides, even if it does go supernova, (that is, has exploded already), it'd be a while before a neutrino storm would blow through the Earth's orbit... unless someone has done the calculations to show that the supernova would likely accelerate the particles to a significant fraction of c.
No, actually the neutrino storm would have already occurred once we see the supernova in visible light: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1987A


Approximately three hours before the visible light from SN 1987A reached the Earth, a burst of neutrinos was observed at three separate neutrino observatories. This is due to the neutrino emission (which occurs simultaneously with core collapse) preceding the emission of visible light (which occurs only after the shock wave reaches the stellar surface). At 7:35am Universal time, Kamiokande II detected 11 antineutrinos, IMB 8 antineutrinos and Baksan 5 antineutrinos, in a burst lasting less than 13 seconds.

These 24 observed events are commonly attributed to electron antineutrinos, rather than neutrinos, since these have a much larger interaction with detectors of this type.[6] This is a property of water- or scintillator-based instruments; other types of detectors, e.g. gallium-71-based ones, detect only electron neutrinos instead. Furthermore, there is no clear sign of directionality in the signal from SN1987A; however, the first event observed by Kamiokande-II points back to the supernova and could be possibly attributed to an elastic scattering reaction, due to a neutrino or to an antineutrino.

Although the actual neutrino count was only 24, it was a significant rise from the previously-observed background level. This was the first time neutrinos emitted from a supernova had been observed directly, and the observations were consistent with theoretical supernova models in which 99% of the energy of the collapse is radiated away in neutrinos. The observations are also consistent with the models' estimates of a total neutrino count of 10^58 with a total energy of 10^46 joules.[7]
Neutrinos get very close to the speed of light and don't get caught up in the bulk of the collapsing star the way the photons do, so they actually *beat* the visible supernova light to us.

[factotum]

Yeah. Hydrogen, though flammible, is the most abundant element in the universe

Er, what does it being flammable have to do with it? It can only burn in the presence of oxygen, and there sure as heck ain't much of that out in the wider universe... :smallconfused:

[thubby]

Er, what does it being flammable have to do with it? It can only burn in the presence of oxygen, and there sure as heck ain't much of that out in the wider universe... :smallconfused:

even when it bonds its still hydrogen. :smallsigh:

[The Extinguisher]

Oh, the star is probably going to collapse sometime soon. That's true. The only problem is soon isn't really defined all that well, especially in astrophysics, where a dozen or so light-years is a really small distance.

[AslanCross]

Too bad. I'd love to see this within my lifetime. It's an awesome story to pass on.

"You know, I saw a star explode."

[absolmorph]

D:
Oh, please. Uranium has such a long half-life that it's of negligible danger. Don't be a wimp.
Coal, on the other hand. THAT can be dangerous.

Seriously, people who drive coal around get more radiation than people who work with uranium.


Oh, the star is probably going to collapse sometime soon. That's true. The only problem is soon isn't really defined all that well, especially in astrophysics, where a dozen or so light-years is a really small distance.
This is one of the reasons I decided not to go into astrophysics. Things move slow. Glaciers are like NASCAR compared to astronomical phenomena. There's normal life, then there's historical, then there's geological time, then there's astronomy time. Things take forEVER to happen.
Plus, just about all the work is actually just staring at numbers and that's not really an interesting job.

EDIT: I hope it does happen while I'm alive, though. Seeing a star explode would be AWESOME.

[grimbold]

actually i like how things take forever to happen in astrophysics
but betelgeuse has been going for ages
i will miss it is one of my favoirte stars

[Flickerdart]

Too bad. I'd love to see this within my lifetime. It's an awesome story to pass on.

"You know, I saw a star explode."
Even better, you should take credit for it. Or at least find the prediction for the exact time it blows, get a camera and go "pow!" at it with your finger.

[Demonweave]

Even better, you should take credit for it. Or at least find the prediction for the exact time it blows, get a camera and go "pow!" at it with your finger.

If we get enough people to try this, someone will have to time it right, and we will look like Gods!

[Kuma Kode]

The sensationalist reporting of something that's been known already is similar to the 13th zodiac sign fiasco. It has been known for quite a while that Betelgeuse is primed to die, it has been showing all the signs. With our technology level and the subtle nature of the actual internal factors, there's no way we can tell.

I remember doing research for a sci-fi campaign five years ago and running into Betelgeuse's wiki page and finding information on how it's showing signs that it's at the end of its life and could go supernova at any moment.

But yeah, uranium. :xykon:

[KerfuffleMach2]

Yeah, however implausible it is, it's cool enough that I'm still hoping.

My thoughts here. It'd be cool to see.

Also, double sun power.

[AsteriskAmp]

Even better, you should take credit for it. Or at least find the prediction for the exact time it blows, get a camera and go "pow!" at it with your finger.

Will we find out it has exploded before or after we see it explode (I mean is there a way for us to know it has gone nova before the light reaches here and we see it go nova [although by that time it will have been years since it went nova])?

[Eldan]

See, never trust someone who says "Supernovi". It's that simple, people.

[Traab]

I would love to be able to say i saw a star explode.

[AslanCross]

Even better, you should take credit for it. Or at least find the prediction for the exact time it blows, get a camera and go "pow!" at it with your finger.

The Dragonball Z fantasies of my childhood will finally come true. :smallwink:

[AtlanteanTroll]

Heck, even if this did happen in 2012, we would know for a few years. This star is lightyears away... Light travels fast, but not that fast.

EDIT: Fun Fact: The light you see during the day is the light that came from the Sun 8 minutes ago. For all you people who can still see the Sun out, for all you know, the Sun just blew-up. Great huh, and we wont know for 8 minutes!! *waits*

[Kris Strife]

Heck, even if this did happen in 2012, we would know for a few years. This star is lightyears away... Light travels fast, but not that fast.

If we're seeing the signs it might be coming now, that means that they started that many years ago too.

[AtlanteanTroll]

If we're seeing the signs it might be coming now, that means that they started that many years ago too.

But we aren't.


Despite being picked up by a ton of major news networks, this story is crap (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/01/is-betelgeuse-about-to-blow/).

[Kris Strife]

But we aren't.

Not sure how much I trust a scientific article complaining about a story they heard third hand, and then get the math wrong. :smallwink:

And the fact that his main argument is "these signs are appearing but we might be reading them wrong" doesn't give me a lot of faith in how accurate it is either.

[absolmorph]

Not sure how much I trust a scientific article complaining about a story they heard third hand, and then get the math wrong. :smallwink:

And the fact that his main argument is "these signs are appearing but we might be reading them wrong" doesn't give me a lot of faith in how accurate it is either.
I would like to reiterate the fact that astronomical time is friggin' SLOW.
"Soon" for astronomy can be hundreds of thousands of years.

[Griever]

The extra hour of light from daylight savings time won’t burn the crops, but this might.

That's not how DST works...

There goes all my faith in this story.

[Kris Strife]

That's not how DST works...

There goes all my faith in this story.

Please note that's a forum post by someone who heard the story from a friend who read the story, not the story in OP.

[Rob Roy]

Hasn't Betelgeuse already had enough trouble, what with the Hrung collapse and all? :smalltongue: I'd like for it happens within my lifetime, it'd be an awesome sight. As in "inspiring awe" not overused synonym for "cool" awesome.

[Form]

I'd love to see this actually happen, but that its supposed to happen in 2012 seems awfully convenient to me. Doomsday theorists will probably have a field day with this. :smallannoyed:



This is one of the reasons I decided not to go into astrophysics. Things move slow. Glaciers are like NASCAR compared to astronomical phenomena. There's normal life, then there's historical, then there's geological time, then there's astronomy time. Things take forEVER to happen.


Sure, it's slow but with so much out there you can catch a particular phenomenon at various stages of its evolution. Besides, we can't recreate the extreme conditions that occur out there in laboratories on Earth, so it certainly does have its pros.

But to each his own. :smalltongue:



Plus, just about all the work is actually just staring at numbers and that's not really an interesting job.


Yeah, there isn't a lot of laboratory work like in physics or chemistry, except for astrochemistry labs which I suppose is still chemistry.

[The Extinguisher]

Will we find out it has exploded before or after we see it explode (I mean is there a way for us to know it has gone nova before the light reaches here and we see it go nova [although by that time it will have been years since it went nova])?

Not really no. I mean, the neutrinos generated will probably get here first, but moreso they were emitted first. We can't know the explosion happened without observing it, and that happens on a speed of light delay.


Astrophysics is so much fun, but I'm strictly a theoretical physicists, so I don't really care about labs.

[Sipex]

Hrm, too bad that this is cockeneyed. I'd really like to see it.

Then watch as the doomsday sayers go nuts for two weeks.

[Traab]

{Scrubbed}

[Sipex]

That's a horrible thing to wish. Most cult groups consist of a few truly insane members, the rest are innocent people who usually get involved to belong then are too scared to leave.

[Traab]

{Scrubbed}

[Sipex]

...

Maybe you're right, it would just be easier to get them to drink the kool-aid.

[Leecros]

Yeah, there will probably be a lot of doomsday things if this happened in 2012, but really? People have been predicting the end of the world for the last 2000 years. I really don't see how 2012 will be any different.

[Sipex]

The biggest factors about doomsday 2012 right now are:

1) It hasn't been disproved yet because it hasn't happened yet
2) We have to live with the commotion until it doesn't (or does?) happen.
3) It has media coverage.

[Crow]

I think lots of people actually *want* the world to end. Whether it comes from actually not liking the world, or if it is being unable to cope with the concept of a world after their own death, and so wanting to see it end in their lifetime, I don't know.

Come to think of it, a lot of people seem to enjoy talking and reading about "doomsday" scenarios. It'd probably make a great topic of it's own.

[Ravens_cry]

See, never trust someone who says "Supernovi". It's that simple, people.
But you said supernovi. Does that mean I shouldn't trust you? But that would mean trusting you to not trust you, which would mean trusting you, even though I am not supposed to trust those who say supernovi because you told me not to but that would mean trusting you despite that you said supernovi which means . . .
*logic bomb*

[Sipex]

Think about it, a major overhaul of the world as we know it, everything changes. Can we survive? What happens?

Also, depending on HOW the world ends is another thing. It could completely change our belief systems or our understanding of the universe as a whole.

[Leecros]

personally i feel that the people who believe in doomsday 2012 is a vocal minority...most of the people that i have spoken to(except my sister) think that it's utter nonsense.



Edit: Personally i do find it an interesting topic, but i don't expect it to happen every year....



Edit^2: My post has a lot of "personally's "

[absolmorph]

The biggest factors about doomsday 2012 right now are:

1) It hasn't been disproved yet because it hasn't happened yet
2) We have to live with the commotion until it doesn't (or does?) happen.
3) It has media coverage.
There's also no reason for people to think it would happen aside from their own ignorance of ancient cultures.
People say the Mayans predicted it and so they ended their calendar on the day it'll happen.
The Mayans made a booping wheel for their calendar. It's (supposedly) the end of a cycle. Well, cycles tend to repeat. December 22 would just be the first day of a new cycle.
So. Much. Illogic. :smallfurious:

Also, this came up yesterday at my youth group (one of the younger kids mentioned it) and I had to keep one of my friends from getting all "You're wrong!" about it.

[Crow]

Or maybe they just looked at their calender and were like;

"Should we keep going with this thing?"

"Nah, we're good the next thousand years, let the next guy do it."

[Sipex]

Yeah...but some people just won't listen until nothing happens. Even then, people won't listen sometimes.

Remember Y2K? Want to be let in on a secret? There's nothing on an airplane or nuclear missile which says "If it's the year 1900 all of a sudden, go ballistic and cause an apocalypse." these objects don't care what the date is.

A lot of data management stuff and bank account stuff would've been completely messed up had the year rolled through without the fixes then.

And when the world didn't end, what happened? Well, the media just changed their minds and instead predicted the world would end in 2001 instead because "2001 according to some calendar is the true year 2000"

[Leecros]

There's also no reason for people to think it would happen aside from their own ignorance of ancient cultures.
People say the Mayans predicted it and so they ended their calendar on the day it'll happen.
The Mayans made a booping wheel for their calendar. It's (supposedly) the end of a cycle. Well, cycles tend to repeat. December 22 would just be the first day of a new cycle.
So. Much. Illogic. :smallfurious:

yeah, do these people also think that the world is about to end every time it gets to the end of the month?

That would be a very traumatizing life...

"Oh My Goodness! Today's the LAST DAY! The world is going to end!":smalleek:
*tears month off the calendar
"Phew....we're good":smallcool:





And when the world didn't end, what happened? Well, the media just changed their minds and instead predicted the world would end in 2001 instead because "2001 according to some calendar is the true year 2000"

I don't think it's necessarily the media. I know that sounds strange coming from a guy who wrote 3 essay's on why the media is evil,in college, on topic that had nothing to do with the media, but it's more along the lines of these conspiracy theorists coming up with it and the media latching onto it.

I remember that my sister's class graduated from High School on 06/06/06 and there was also an end of the world scare that year.

[Ravens_cry]

Go into used bookshops or thrift stores. You'll find books detailing the end of the world as far back as you care to go. Eccles cakes, there was a big scare that 1000 AD would mean the end of the world.:smallsigh:

[Telonius]

Several thoughts:

Bah, they're all wrong, the world ended on July 17th 486. We just haven't realized it yet.

If the star does blow up, can you say its name three times to get it to come back?

The Mayans just wanted me to have a really awesome 32nd birthday. Either that or the party will somehow precipitate Armageddon.

[TigerHunter]

Found a neat article (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/104348/20110124/betelgeuse-supernova-could-rival-moon-give-scientists-inside-look.htm) through the blog I linked to earlier.

[averagejoe]

There's also no reason for people to think it would happen aside from their own ignorance of ancient cultures.
People say the Mayans predicted it and so they ended their calendar on the day it'll happen.
The Mayans made a booping wheel for their calendar. It's (supposedly) the end of a cycle. Well, cycles tend to repeat. December 22 would just be the first day of a new cycle.
So. Much. Illogic. :smallfurious:

Also, this came up yesterday at my youth group (one of the younger kids mentioned it) and I had to keep one of my friends from getting all "You're wrong!" about it.

(Perhaps ir)Relevant link! (http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1528)

[mucat]

And when the world didn't end {due to the Y2K bug}, what happened? Well, the media just changed their minds and instead predicted the world would end in 2001 instead because "2001 according to some calendar is the true year 2000"
Erm...no, they didn't. I mean, there were picky individuals pointing out that we should wait to celebrate the beginning of the 21st Century in 2001...but nobody was predicting software bugs for that date.

(Well, all right, someone, somewhere probably was, due to completely misunderstanding why the bugs would exist in the first place. But it wasn't a widespread concern.)

[Traab]

I liked the dilbert comic I read where dogbert decided to become a prophet announcing the end of the world in the year 2000. His justification? "The almighty likes to work on a base 10 counting system and loves round numbers. For example, you REALLY dont want to be in mobile home 1,000,000 in the year 2000."

[Sipex]

Erm...no, they didn't. I mean, there were picky individuals pointing out that we should wait to celebrate the beginning of the 21st Century in 2001...but nobody was predicting software bugs for that date.

(Well, all right, someone, somewhere probably was, due to completely misunderstanding why the bugs would exist in the first place. But it wasn't a widespread concern.)

Oh sorry, should've clarified.

They didn't predict it in the same way as Y2K end of the world stuffs. They dropped the computer software problems bits and just started going on about how the year 2001 was next.

Mind, this probably wasn't reputable news sources, I was only 15 at the time so I don't quite remember which ones were saying it.

[The Succubus]

If Arthur C Clarke is to be believed, we're actually 2 years late on our second Sun. But then again, I haven't seen any suspicious black monoliths floating around Jupiter.

Good film though.

[Ravens_cry]

If Arthur C Clarke is to be believed, we're actually 2 years late on our second Sun. But then again, I haven't seen any suspicious black monoliths floating around Jupiter.

Good film though.

It didn't have the brain boggling, mind melting "WHAA. . .?!" factor of 2001, but it was a lot of fun regardless. Amazing effects for Jupiter, I would have loved to seen that in the theatres.
It's a good thing though it didn't happen though, the effect on our ecosystem could be drastic.