[4e] "modernizing" 4e monsters

[Erom]

So, it's a pretty well known fact that when 4e was launched there was a problem where fights would tend to drag because enemies had too many hitpoints but did too little damage to make the fight risky/excited. It's also a pretty well known fact the monsters from later books (especially the MM3 and on I believe?) are better designed, and to a large extent avoid this problem.

That said, is there a tested/popular way to convert monsters from the "old" style to the more modern style? Some formula, like reduce all HP by 1/2 but increase damage by 2*level?

I mean, I can look up example monsters and do it myself, but I was wondering if the community had already worked this out.

[Mando Knight]

Solos lose 20% of their HP at Epic tier as well as their defense bonuses compared to normal monsters, monsters gain roughly +level to average damage. That's actually about it for official changes.

[rayne_dragon]

I think that information is in either in the DMG or MM3... Or it might be in the errata for one of them. And while I think the monsters are better designed, I don't think they fixed the core problem of too much HP, not enough damage. I generally recommend a fix of 25-50% less HP and 25-100% more damage depending on what's best for your party. Alternately you can just use more minions and if you have too much of a problem with area of effect attacks give them 10 hp/tier or so to make them have some durability. My players actually really liked my 'non-minion' minions.

[Mando Knight]

One group I've been playing with hasn't had a problem with drawn-out slugfests at all. In fact, when you remember that a round is still supposed to be ~6 seconds in-game time, things go by too fast. About six-seven rounds (less than a minute!), and a pair of Elites are down on the ground, along with their accompanying Minions and Soldiers. Mind you, the party was whiffing on a large number of our attacks.

The problem is that most people don't realize this, and complain that the game takes too long OOC. This is because not everyone has pulled their stuff together: if you know what you're going to do, you should be able to power through a round in only a couple of minutes.

[ninja_penguin]

The problem is that most people don't realize this, and complain that the game takes too long OOC. This is because not everyone has pulled their stuff together: if you know what you're going to do, you should be able to power through a round in only a couple of minutes.

While entirely true, if combat takes an hour and two and isn't very exciting, it doesn't fare well with the players. I totally agree on the time segment of things (my dwarven criminal masterwind went from 'mwahaha I am so devious' to 'owowow I'm on fire and now I die' in 12 real-game-time seconds), but to the players that was a good half hour.

[rayne_dragon]

The problem is that most people don't realize this, and complain that the game takes too long OOC. This is because not everyone has pulled their stuff together: if you know what you're going to do, you should be able to power through a round in only a couple of minutes.

Sometimes unpreparedness is the problem, but I've run into the too many HP problem even with a small group of three very experienced players. Fights often drag out to the point where everybody is using the same at-will powers each turn and it just becomes a matter of slugging out the rest of the battle.

[ninja_penguin]

That said, is there a tested/popular way to convert monsters from the "old" style to the more modern style? Some formula, like reduce all HP by 1/2 but increase damage by 2*level?

Actually, if you take a look at the errata in the DMG pdf you can download from the site, there's a table that has the new damage numbers and monster formulas. You can pretty much take things from there. I was flipping through the monster vault and the MM1, and it looks like solos and some elites are where you see the major HP differences, and the damage gets a big ramping up, and sometimes the defenses are fiddled with a little.

[Shatteredtower]

Too many hit points isn't an issue when monsters display a non- metagame sense of self preservation and the rules don't make beating every enemy down the most effective and efficient option for handling confrontation.

The books recommend dropping all of a solo's defenses for pre-MM3 monsters by 2. I disagree. If combat takes too long, find a better way.

[Sipex]

I fix ALL of my MM1 monsters by doing to following:

1) Reduce HP by 33%, round down to the nearest whole number.

2) Increase average damage by 33%, nearest whole number. This is a bit harder since you don't have a flat number so what I do is first look at the power.

ie: Power does 1d8+6 damage.

Then take the low and high ends of damage.

ie: Power does 7-14 damage.

Increase those numbers by 33%, round down or up (your choice).

ie: 9-18 (rounding down)

And then figure out what kind of dice situation grants me this result.

ie: 1d10 + 8

[MeeposFire]

I think I remember something like doubling either the damage dice or the mod, I am not entirely sure.

[Balain]

For our campaign I have cut the hp in half (depends on the fight etc, but roughly 1/2) and doubled the amount of damage they do. I know the damage is more than the 2* level but with double the actual damage the party feels far more threatened

[Vknight]

I fix ALL of my MM1 monsters by doing to following:

1) Reduce HP by 33%, round down to the nearest whole number.

2) Increase average damage by 33%, nearest whole number. This is a bit harder since you don't have a flat number so what I do is first look at the power.

ie: Power does 1d8+6 damage.

Then take the low and high ends of damage.

ie: Power does 7-14 damage.

Increase those numbers by 33%, round down or up (your choice).

ie: 9-18 (rounding down)

And then figure out what kind of dice situation grants me this result.

ie: 1d10 + 8

This is your best bet for damage & Hp so I second this one.

[Doug Lampert]

Solos lose 20% of their HP at Epic tier as well as their defense bonuses compared to normal monsters, monsters gain roughly +level to average damage. That's actually about it for official changes.

Consolidated errata for October, page 40, Damage by Level and other material is your friend. The same page has the table for various monster types.

The new damage table has an at-will single target attack averaging Moster Level + 7 damage (minions average about half that, round down). You adjust this value as follows: Multi-target powers are down 25%, brutes are up 25%, powers with substantial control effects are down 25%, limited use is up 75%.

This is roughly Level/2 higher than monster manual 1 standard.

To hit vs. AC is roughly +Level+5
To hit vs. NAD is roughly +Level+3
Artillery gets +1 or +2 more on ranged and area burst attacks.

NAD are all roughly Level+12
AC is roughly Level+14, except for soldiers who are +2 more and artillery and brutes who are 2 less.

Standard HP are (Level+1)*8+Con, except for Brutes who multiply by 10, and artillery and lurkers who multiply by 6. Elites are always double the HP a standard would have.

IIRC non-epic solos use a flat HP formula of (Level+1)*40+Con*5 regardless of type. But I may be off on that one since I don't have my rules here and don't make many solos (I find elites and standards are more fun).

Elites and Solos DO NOT increase defenses other than HP and their save bonus. But elites need to have roughly double the damage done of a standard, and solos need to have some way of avoiding lossing too many to "lose a turn" powers and to do 3-4 times as much damage as a standard. Solos often do their extra damage via interrupts and minor action attacks.

Adjust all values to taste. But the new values and rules are actually MUCH simpler to implement than the original. The one problem is that most of them aren't in the monster builder, but I can build monsters without a tool (or more often, I come close in the tool by modifying an existing monster, copy to RTF, and then do final modification in a word document).

DougL