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Thurbane
2011-01-21, 09:06 PM
I was just wondering, I have seen once or twice people using an "op trick" for playing races with RHD. To get level drained down to 1 HD, and let the levels be drained permanently. You then gain XP and take class levels instead of the lost RHD.

I'm just wondering on the legality of this from a purely RAW standpoint - obviously it's cheese that most DMs would shoot down, but does it stand up RAW wise?

true_shinken
2011-01-21, 09:09 PM
From negative levels, you lose the last levels you gained first. If you don't have class levels, you'd lose racial hit dice, yes. It's RAW legal.

Actually, with lycanthropes specifically, I find it cool. "You were bitten? Venture to the Grey Temple. There are wights there. Their negative energy kills the beast within you." I'm going to make this a plot point in my next campaign, btw.

Runestar
2011-01-22, 12:14 AM
Well, in all fairness, most monster PCs aren't worth their ECL anyways. :smalltongue:

Endarire
2011-01-22, 12:54 AM
I read that, by RAW, you choose which HD to lose when level drained or you lose a HD. Logically, you would lose your most recently gained HD.

ffone
2011-01-22, 03:08 AM
I read that, by RAW, you choose which HD to lose when level drained or you lose a HD. Logically, you would lose your most recently gained HD.

lol, can I choose to lose all the dead levels of my classes? that would be awesome!

"Why yes I have 11d6 sneak attack at level 11 and my fighter buddy has 11 bonus feats. What?"

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 06:41 AM
lol, can I choose to lose all the dead levels of my classes? that would be awesome!

"Why yes I have 11d6 sneak attack at level 11 and my fighter buddy has 11 bonus feats. What?"

Ah, yes, the almost fix for the Fighter.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 10:28 AM
I read that, by RAW, you choose which HD to lose when level drained or you lose a HD. Logically, you would lose your most recently gained HD.
Rules Compendium makes this RAW.


LEVEL LOSS
A victim who loses a level loses the most recent level gained, losing one Hit Die along with a number of hit points equal to the average result of that die.
Emphasis mine.

Czin
2011-01-22, 10:33 AM
Ah, yes, the almost fix for the Fighter.

Then you keep on doing it again and again and again until his feat count reaches utterly absurd levels. "Yes I have every feat in every sourcebook that is applicable to my class and have taken many over a hundred times...what of it?"

Psyren
2011-01-22, 12:47 PM
Pathfinder addresses this issue - in PF, negative levels just "stick" and never actually convert to level loss. Even if you are raised from the dead, you simply have a negative level that sticks around, that can be removed with Restoration etc. as normal.

If you die due to having negative levels = HD, this creates an infinite loop whereby you will die everytime you are raised; however, there is a one-round window in which you can Restore someone who is revived this way before they die again.

tl;dr if you don't like this quirk of the rules, play Pathfinder :smallsmile:

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 12:56 PM
Pathfinder addresses this issue - in PF, negative levels just "stick" and never actually convert to level loss. Even if you are raised from the dead, you simply have a negative level that sticks around, that can be removed with Restoration etc. as normal.

If you die due to having negative levels = HD, this creates an infinite loop whereby you will die everytime you are raised; however, there is a one-round window in which you can Restore someone who is revived this way before they die again.

tl;dr if you don't like this quirk of the rules, play Pathfinder :smallsmile:

Where you trade one quirk in the rules for another. :smallamused:

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 01:02 PM
Rules Compendium makes this RAW.


Emphasis mine.

Even if it wasn't, I'm pretty sure class features is dependent on total Class lvls, so you can't simply drop Fighter lvl 3, and keep Fighter 1,2,4-10. A Fighter 10 lvl drained becomes a lvl 9 fighter, along with the class features of a lvl 9 fighter.

Without Rules compendium, a Fighter2/Barb2/Fighter6 could lose a Barb lvl instead of Fighter, but that's about it.

And it does not disrupt the trick of losing RHD. You try to lose your RHD before you take a class, not after.

Kylarra
2011-01-22, 01:08 PM
Then you keep on doing it again and again and again until his feat count reaches utterly absurd levels. "Yes I have every feat in every sourcebook that is applicable to my class and have taken many over a hundred times...what of it?"When you lose the level you lose class features gained from that level, so... :smalltongue:

Czin
2011-01-22, 01:09 PM
When you lose the level you lose class features gained from that level, so... :smalltongue:

A lord of change did it so...:tongue:

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 01:09 PM
Even if it wasn't, I'm pretty sure class features is dependent on total Class lvls, so you can't simply drop Fighter lvl 3, and keep Fighter 1,2,4-10. A Fighter 10 lvl drained becomes a lvl 9 fighter, along with the class features of a lvl 9 fighter.

Without Rules compendium, a Fighter2/Barb2/Fighter6 could lose a Barb lvl instead of Fighter, but that's about it.

And it does not disrupt the trick of losing RHD. You try to lose your RHD before you take a class, not after.

You are absolutely correct.

kme
2011-01-22, 01:59 PM
Rules Compendium makes this RAW.


LEVEL LOSS
A victim who loses a level loses the most recent level gained, losing one Hit Die along with a number of hit points equal to the average result of that die.
Emphasis mine.
Hm, there is another loophole with this ruling. Since you only lose a fixed amount of HP (average for your HD) if you could somehow assure that you always roll better then average you could theoretically get an infinite amount of HP for a given level.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 02:04 PM
Hm, there is another loophole with this ruling. Since you only lose a fixed amount of HP (average for your HD) if you could somehow assure that you always roll better then average you could theoretically get an infinite amount of HP for a given level.

Yes, I thought that as well. Too much trouble for too little benefit anyway.

Lamech
2011-01-22, 02:08 PM
If you want feats just use the planartouch citidal + chaos shuffle if you want feats or hp (who said toughness sucks?).

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 02:10 PM
If you want feats just use the planartouch citidal + chaos shuffle if you want feats or hp (who said toughness sucks?).
...wait, what?

Czin
2011-01-22, 02:12 PM
If you want feats just use the planartouch citidal + chaos shuffle if you want feats or hp (who said toughness sucks?).

The only feat with the word "toughness" in it's name that doesn't suck is improved toughness.

rayne_dragon
2011-01-22, 02:41 PM
Hm, there is another loophole with this ruling. Since you only lose a fixed amount of HP (average for your HD) if you could somehow assure that you always roll better then average you could theoretically get an infinite amount of HP for a given level.

On the other hand if you're unlucky and aren't trying to fix your rolls, it is entirely possible to end up with a negative maximum HP. :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 02:49 PM
On the other hand if you're unlucky and aren't trying to fix your rolls, it is entirely possible to end up with a negative maximum HP. :smalltongue:

Ooh, snap!

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 03:00 PM
On the other hand if you're unlucky and aren't trying to fix your rolls, it is entirely possible to end up with a negative maximum HP. :smalltongue:

So someone trying to exploit it as a scheme to get an arbitrarily high max HP but not actually doing anything to maximize their gains?

Sounds a bit far-fetched.

Lamech
2011-01-22, 03:08 PM
...wait, what?

The feat planar touchstone lets you get various minor feats for free. Embrace the dark chaos take one feat of your choice and makes it a chaos feat. Then you cast shun the dark chaos and it becomes a normal feat of your choice.
So take the feat that lets you use planar touchstones, get a random feat, turn it into a chaos feat, turn it back into a regular feat and then get a new touchstone feat. Infinite feats.

Actually I'm not 100% sure that planar touchstone is how you get the spare feat, but I know its doable somehow...

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 03:11 PM
So take the feat that lets you use planar touchstones, get a random feat, turn it into a chaos feat, turn it back into a regular feat and then get a new touchstone feat. Infinite feats.

Everyone knows about that (I seem to be the one who abused the most out of it, infinite loops aside (http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.wizards.com%2Fgo%2Fthre ad%2Fview%2F75882%2F19866566%2FThe_True_Dilettante __New_Feat_Record__504_feats&ei=yTk7TZ6eJcO78gaDnYjCCg&usg=AFQjCNHbZubyPirZwHbZXt4qbsnbOtCvKA)).
What surprised me was you saying Toughness is a not a bad feat. Because it is.

2xMachina
2011-01-22, 03:14 PM
Probably trying to say that you have so much feats, that you might as well dump some into Toughness.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 03:16 PM
Probably trying to say that you have so much feats, that you might as well dump some into Toughness.
Except you don't get that many. If you abused legacy weapons or something, then it could work.
Then again, the draconic and abyssal analogs of Toughness are still better - you take them one and they scale as you take more draconic/abyssal feats.
Take both.

Waker
2011-01-22, 03:29 PM
Were any player in a game I ran attempting this trick (and I didn't simply grab their character sheet and burn it) I would probably use the Savage Species progression rules. Ok, you are now a 1HD version of your race, have fun gaining all those HD back before you are allowed to multi-class again.

A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a standard class.

Lamech
2011-01-22, 03:37 PM
Probably trying to say that you have so much feats, that you might as well dump some into Toughness.
Exactly! You can take as many toughnesses as you want. When you have the 137 feats you want that aren't toughness you should take the rest as toughness.

I suppose there are technically better toughness analouges somewhere though. (And can you get unlimited HP with the abysall/draconic versions?)

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 03:48 PM
Were any player in a game I ran attempting this trick (and I didn't simply grab their character sheet and burn it) I would probably use the Savage Species progression rules. Ok, you are now a 1HD version of your race, have fun gaining all those HD back before you are allowed to multi-class again.

But you don't have to do this.
Think about it, your player wants something (less racial hit dice). If he can do this, he grows happy. He wants to do this in a way that is an adventuring hook in itself. What's not to like? Give him a quest. Make it hard. Make him feel death is around every corner. Maybe he enters a wight-infested ancient battlefield, maybe he hires a wizard that wants to capture him and study him further.
Why not give him what he wants? Unless it breaks the campaign or doesn't fit your setting, I see no reason for this.

Psyren
2011-01-22, 04:02 PM
Unless it breaks the campaign or doesn't fit your setting, I see no reason for this.

I do - level drain is supposed to be a bad thing. A corrupt monstrosity stealing your life force is not supposed to be your blank check to a new lease on life. I can see no way to do this in-universe and have it make the slightest bit of sense.

*Wight drains Minotaur down to 1 RHD.*
"I am now weaker than I have ever been. Now to become the strongest minotaur in the land."
*Minotaur takes levels in Warblade*

It just doesn't jive for me. Now, Some monsters have way too much RHD, I'm entirely against LA, and everyone should advance by class rather than HD (another change in PF), but monster classes should have some imo.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 04:05 PM
I do - level drain is supposed to be a bad thing. A corrupt monstrosity stealing your life force is not supposed to be your blank check to a new lease on life. I can see no way to do this in-universe and have it make the slightest bit of sense.

*Wight drains Minotaur down to 1 RHD.*
"I am now weaker than I have ever been. Now to become the strongest minotaur in the land."
*Minotaur takes levels in Warblade*

It just doesn't jive for me. Now, Some monsters have way too much RHD, I'm entirely against LA, and everyone should advance by class rather than HD (another change in PF), but monster classes should have some imo.

It works beautifully with lycanthropes, and that's the only thing I'd use it for.
Negative energy kills the beast within. But be careful - too much negative energy and you might kill the man as well.
This is also very very hard to pull out anyway. It might get you killed very easily.

Waker
2011-01-22, 04:06 PM
The reason why is because there is no reason for a character to try this trick except to become more powerful than the rules should allow. Between this trick and LA buyoff a character could conceivably have all the abilities of some powerful monster combined with 19 levels of a class, which is just absurd.
"Hey I wanna drop all but one of my RHD for my Rakshasa, I bought off my LA and now I count as a level 1 character for the purposes of gaining XP. But I still cast spells as a lvl 7 Sorcerer and any future levels of Sorcerer I take stack with my RHD for determining what spells I can cast. So I'll take a four levels of sorcerer so I can qualify for whatever prc I want but at the end I only need a total of +13 to my spellcaster progression to be a 20th lvl spellcaster. So I'll toss in 7 level of some other class....."

As a player and DM I love roleplaying. There is no way that I can look at this method as anything other than powergaming, which I hate with a passion.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 04:10 PM
The reason why is because there is no reason for a character to try this trick except to become more powerful than the rules should allow. Between this trick and LA buyoff a character could conceivably have all the abilities of some powerful monster combined with 19 levels of a class, which is just absurd.

"The wereleopard bit me! Damn, I like lycanthropes, but being 5 levels ahead and with the xp of 5 levels behind, I'll never level up again. Is there a way around this? Or should I just get a spell cast on me, ignore a possible subplot and be done with it?"

Waker
2011-01-22, 04:14 PM
I'm fine with a player trying to come up with some agreed homebrew fix to allow a more steady progression of lycanthropy, but the negative level trick isn't the path I'd allow.

More specifically I'd probably allow something akin to a LA buyoff, but only for something like a lycanthrope.

Psyren
2011-01-22, 04:16 PM
A better fix is to simply not let lycanthropy give you a bunch of useless HD. Sure you'll be stronger that way (while shifted), but you'll also be an NPC. Again, Pathfinder does this better.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 04:22 PM
I'm fine with a player trying to come up with some agreed homebrew fix to allow a more steady progression of lycanthropy, but the negative level trick isn't the path I'd allow.

More specifically I'd probably allow something akin to a LA buyoff, but only for something like a lycanthrope.
I prefer in-game solutions, because it gives me something to work with. I just really like the idea of someone fighting a bunch of undead to quell the beast and trying to run away afterwards before they kill him. Just a difference in opinion.

Psyren
2011-01-22, 04:29 PM
I prefer in-game solutions, because it gives me something to work with. I just really like the idea of someone fighting a bunch of undead to quell the beast and trying to run away afterwards before they kill him. Just a difference in opinion.

I think your fluff is cool too, but you're not trying to cure lycanthropy; you're trying to be a 1HD lycanthrope (Worgen?) that can both flip out/turn furry, be in full control of his faculties and not suck at anything that isn't a simple attack roll. That's not negative energy, that's phlebotinum.

Waker
2011-01-22, 04:29 PM
I obviously understand the point you are trying to establish, but even the "quell the beast" strategy is still based on metagame knowledge. We know that negative energy takes the last HD you gained as a mechanic, but in a strictly roleplaying sense it simply takes away life force. Having a lycanthrope intentionally let himself be drained of life force could (if the DM allowed) lose his RHD but in a roleplaying scheme he could instead be losing the "man" aspect of him, leaving only "the beast." And no, I'm not trying to make this into a cool roleplaying thing, but just pointing out that even an in-game character shouldn't know that is what happens when you get drained, since RHD aren't something that exist inside the game.

Thurbane
2011-01-22, 04:33 PM
You've also got to trust the (presumably) evil caster or undead not to drain that last HD... :smallamused:

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 04:38 PM
I obviously understand the point you are trying to establish, but even the "quell the beast" strategy is still based on metagame knowledge. We know that negative energy takes the last HD you gained as a mechanic, but in a strictly roleplaying sense it simply takes away life force. Having a lycanthrope intentionally let himself be drained of life force could (if the DM allowed) lose his RHD but in a roleplaying scheme he could instead be losing the "man" aspect of him, leaving only "the beast." And no, I'm not trying to make this into a cool roleplaying thing, but just pointing out that even an in-game character shouldn't know that is what happens when you get drained, since RHD aren't something that exist inside the game.
Oh, definitely. Most characters wouldn't think of this. Only those with high Knowledge (nature) and Spellcraft. Druids, maybe.
And... you're losing racial hit dice. How is that not losing "the beast"?

Waker
2011-01-22, 04:40 PM
My point is that RHD are something that don't exist in the game world itself, all a character knows is that they are losing life force, which is kinda bad. To a character life force isn't two separate pools, one for class levels and one for racial hit die.

true_shinken
2011-01-22, 04:42 PM
My point is that RHD are something that don't exist in the game world itself, all a character knows is that they are losing life force, which is kinda bad. To a character life force isn't two separate pools, one for class levels and one for racial hit die.
I disagree. I think RHD is a pretty obvious concept to grasp in-game - it's life force, except it's natural, not from experience/training.

Psyren
2011-01-22, 04:46 PM
I disagree. I think RHD is a pretty obvious concept to grasp in-game - it's life force, except it's natural, not from experience/training.

Knowing how much you have, though, IS metagaming. Who is to say a Minotaur is more lively than a Centaur? How would a Weretiger know he has more life force than a Werebear? It gets silly quickly.

Waker
2011-01-22, 04:46 PM
Fair enough, if we disagree on that point then we can't reach a consensus. Not really in the mood to debate the philosophical views on gaining experience vs inborn abilities and yadda yadda.

Czin
2011-01-22, 05:24 PM
I myself would simply waive off the negative effects of racial hit dice and allow one to buy off LA, it seems simpler, though it obviously doesn't work with every monster (Great Wyrm Red Dragon starts as a level 1 character!!!111Oneoneone)

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 05:30 PM
A better fix is to simply not let lycanthropy give you a bunch of useless HD. Sure you'll be stronger that way (while shifted), but you'll also be an NPC.

Which is just a terribly annoying derail of the game's focus anyway. It's just weird if a DM gets off on that and it's annoying enough when a player has to twiddle his thumbs because he's been offed, let alone have a regularly recurring loss of character control.


I think your fluff is cool too, but you're not trying to cure lycanthropy; you're trying to be a 1HD lycanthrope (Worgen?) that can both flip out/turn furry, be in full control of his faculties and not suck at anything that isn't a simple attack roll.

It's not as elegant a solution as I would prefer, but I can hardly be unsympathetic to wanting to play something that doesn't suck at anything that isn't a simple attack roll


That's not negative energy, that's phlebotinum.

negative energy is the phlebotinum that powers skellies and zomblebees, after all. :smallamused:

Psyren
2011-01-22, 05:56 PM
Which is just a terribly annoying derail of the game's focus anyway. It's just weird if a DM gets off on that and it's annoying enough when a player has to twiddle his thumbs because he's been offed, let alone have a regularly recurring loss of character control.

Honestly, the whole point of lycanthropy is that you aren't in control. And even if you are, it should be more complicated than just "Cool, I made my wisdom check, I'm wolf-man now" - control is a constant struggle, and it should take, if not all of your focus, at least a great deal. Certainly enough that you can't just go gallivanting off and being hyper-competent at everything. This isn't Teen Wolf or Twilight.


negative energy is the phlebotinum that powers skellies and zomblebees, after all. :smallamused:

Yes, but it's consistent phlebotinum. i.e. "if you're dead, This Rocks. If you're alive, This Sucks." There are few exceptions.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-22, 06:42 PM
You've also got to trust the (presumably) evil caster or undead not to drain that last HD... :smallamused:

Find a "Mind raped to good" or Sanctified Shadow dragon Wyrmling? It deals 1 negative level with each breath.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-22, 09:44 PM
Hm, there is another loophole with this ruling. Since you only lose a fixed amount of HP (average for your HD) if you could somehow assure that you always roll better then average you could theoretically get an infinite amount of HP for a given level.

This actually sort of worked in the Computer AD&D games. I used to do that a fair bit, until it hit 255 and rolled under. Then you had a character with their levels in the teens, and single digit HP.:smalltongue:


I suppose there are technically better toughness analouges somewhere though. (And can you get unlimited HP with the abysall/draconic versions?)

Roll With It. Or that other Feat that improves Damage Reduction. Both from Savage Species. Get 30 Roll With Its, and suddenly, nearly nothing physical can harm you. And yet falling onto the floor will kill you... Seriously though? Falling on something that is not spikes or blades should count as bludgeoning damage.

dextercorvia
2011-01-22, 10:04 PM
*Wight drains Minotaur down to 1 RHD.*
"I am now weaker than I have ever been. Now to become the strongest minotaur in the land."
*Minotaur takes levels in Warblade*


Now that's just silly. If he was going to take levels in Warblade, he could just Iron Heart Surge away his RHD.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-22, 10:48 PM
"You were bitten? Venture to the Grey Temple. There are wights there. Their negative energy kills the beast within you." The angst factor of having a paladin being offered this option is exquisite.

Flickerdart
2011-01-22, 11:08 PM
The angst factor of having a paladin being offered this option is exquisite.
Not really. He goes in and kills all the wights. If they drained him however much, then all the better. If not, it's time to find more wights.