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View Full Version : Looking for a druid variant which gives up casting.



AustontheGreat1
2011-01-22, 07:01 AM
It sounds crazy wanting to give up spellcasting but I'd like to play a druid who focuses mainly on Wildshaping/Shapeshifting. I'm looking for a good variant which allows the Druid to give up its ability to cast spells but gets something strong in return. I figured giving up spellcasting and gaining full BAB and good reflex might be in the area but it just doesn't sound like enough, though maybe I'm just being greedy.

Anyway, anyone know of any druid variants, homebrew or official, that sacrifice casting?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-22, 07:07 AM
You could play a Wildshape Ranger, but meh. Their Wildshape isn't as good. One definite choice is going into Master of Many Forms as early as possible. It doesn't progress spells, but makes your Wildshaping a lot better. I haven't really heard of an ACF that takes casting away from a full caster class.

Kobold-Bard
2011-01-22, 07:10 AM
(Be a Shifter)

Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger)

WSR gets limited Wild Shape so use the Shapeshift Variant from PHB2, then use some of DaTedinator's feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78186) for new forms, since you'll probably only get 2-3 normal forms due to WSR's limited Wild Shape.

Use the Complete Warrior variant to give up your Ranger spells.

Convince your DM to let you be a Spirit Lion Totem Ranger, trading your new Fast Movement from Wild Shape Ranger for Pounce.

Use Master of Many Forms (Comp. Scoundrel?)
---------------
Relies on some Homebrew and a bit of leeway from your DM, but doesn't sound too bad to me. Shifter in brackets because I have no idea what they do.

Saph
2011-01-22, 07:11 AM
Yep, either Druid 5/Master of Many Forms X or Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms X should get you want you want. The Druid version gets 3rd-level spells, the Ranger version gets only 1st-level spells but a better BAB and the Endurance prerequisite for free.

Asheram
2011-01-22, 07:11 AM
It's not exactly giving up spellcasting, but Druid 5/Master of many forms 10 / Warshaper 5 is an interesting build.

Serpentine
2011-01-22, 07:15 AM
There's a whole lot that reduce the spellcasting ability, but none I could see that eliminate it completely... Maybe talk to your DM about being able to take one of those variants, and swapping spellcasting ability for keeping both the normal and variant abilities?

Togo
2011-01-22, 07:27 AM
It's not exactly giving up spellcasting, but Druid 5/Master of many forms 10 / Warshaper 5 is an interesting build.

I'd recommend at least considering Druid 5/Master of many forms 10 / Nature's Warrior 5 instead. More spellcasting, which is unfortunate, but Nature's Warrior advances wildshape, while warshaper doesn't. Mechanically, MoMFs struggle to deal enough hp damage in a fight at high level compared with true melee classes, but really shine with their vast array of special abilities, mobility, and toughness.

Bear in mind that any kind of shapeshifting build involves a lot of bookeeping - maintaining 4 or so character sheets at once is probably a minimum, or you won't be able to keep your stats straight during the game.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 07:52 AM
Yep, either Druid 5/Master of Many Forms X or Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms X should get you want you want. The Druid version gets 3rd-level spells, the Ranger version gets only 1st-level spells but a better BAB and the Endurance prerequisite for free.

And the Ranger gives that good reflex save for those first 5 levels. Can't remember MOMF's saves offhand though.

or you could argue that giving up your casting is more than worth full BAB and a good reflex save (you'd still be coming out worse for the deal if you got the fangshields ranger substitution levels for free) and keep your superior animal companion after you PrC out.

Or you could use Divine Minion + whatever X to qualify for MOMF without either class.

Leon
2011-01-22, 08:44 AM
Requires a High Entry BAB but Primeval maybe what you are after (Frostburn)

molten_dragon
2011-01-22, 09:18 AM
It would be completely homebrew, but maybe you could talk your DM into giving you ToB maneuvers/stances in place of your spells?

Eldariel
2011-01-22, 09:41 AM
Yeah, Wildshape Ranger 5 (with Champion of the Wilds ACF)/Master of Many Form 10 is precisely what you want. Gives up spellcasting entirely, has slightly higher BAB and saves, and becomes a superb Wildshaper; far better than a straight Druid thanks to Master of Many Forms. I would know, I've played one in arena; it kicks ass. The last 5 levels can be Warshaper (doesn't advance Wildshaping tho), Nature's Warrior (which would stack though wouldn't gain quite as strong abilities as Warshaper) or just plain more Wildshape Ranger (you'd still get e.g. Evasion that way). Fist of the Forests is also a great option, though it doesn't of course advance Wildshaping.

Master of Many Forms (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=639448) Bible would help out, and if you want an animal companion, take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) on level 1; it's close to as good as Druid's and far better than Ranger's (you can get a Roc by the end of your career!). You could ask your DM if you could take that feat and give up your Ranger Animal Companion for full progression Druid companion; it'd be a house rule but considering you're paying a feat for it, a rather reasonable one.

Gnaeus
2011-01-22, 09:56 AM
Yeah, Wildshape Ranger 5 (with Champion of the Wilds ACF)/Master of Many Form 10 is precisely what you want. Gives up spellcasting entirely, has slightly higher BAB and saves, and becomes a superb Wildshaper; far better than a straight Druid thanks to Master of Many Forms. I would know, I've played one in arena; it kicks ass.

It is probably what he wants. It is not better than a straight druid at most levels at wildshaping. At seventh level, the druid gets the Augment Wild Shape spell, giving him access to EX abilities which the MOMF will not get until ECL 12. Level 6, and 12-16 are the only levels in which it could be argued that MOMF is a better shapeshifter than a straight druid (and honestly, at most of those levels it is very debatable. The druid has access to long duration or quickened buffs that supercharge its forms, + the ability to take craft wondrous items and make wildling clasps). 17+ the druid gets Shapechange.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 10:04 AM
It is probably what he wants. It is not better than a straight druid at most levels at wildshaping. At seventh level, the druid gets the Augment Wild Shape spell, giving him access to EX abilities which the MOMF will not get until ECL 12. Level 6, and 12-16 are the only levels in which it could be argued that MOMF is a better shapeshifter than a straight druid (and honestly, at most of those levels it is very debatable. The druid has access to long duration or quickened buffs that supercharge its forms, + the ability to take craft wondrous items and make wildling clasps). 17+ the druid gets Shapechange.

Of course, those aren't actually part of its wildshaping abilities, those are factors of its spellcasting.

Eldariel
2011-01-22, 10:12 AM
It is probably what he wants. It is not better than a straight druid at most levels at wildshaping. At seventh level, the druid gets the Augment Wild Shape spell, giving him access to EX abilities which the MOMF will not get until ECL 12. Level 6, and 12-16 are the only levels in which it could be argued that MOMF is a better shapeshifter than a straight druid (and honestly, at most of those levels it is very debatable. The druid has access to long duration or quickened buffs that supercharge its forms, + the ability to take craft wondrous items and make wildling clasps). 17+ the druid gets Shapechange.

It's better than a straight Druid at Wildshaping itself; the improvement just doesn't overcome the spells. Take Druid's Wildshape, put it side-by-side with Ranger/MoMF's Wildshape and Ranger/MoMF wins hands down. Now, take Druid's spells into the equation and of course Druid wins; that's spells for you. But if we're talking about Druid's Wildshape class feature alone, in that regard a MoMF wins out.

Gnaeus
2011-01-22, 10:35 AM
OK, so it is a definitional issue. For me, better at wildshaping means: able to wildshape into more powerful or effective forms or forms with more utility, by whatever means (advantage druid). If it is just weighing the class features alone in a vaccuum, the MOMF does win.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 10:39 AM
OK, so it is a definitional issue. For me, better at wildshaping means: able to wildshape into more powerful or effective forms or forms with more utility, by whatever means (advantage druid). If it is just weighing the class features alone in a vaccuum, the MOMF does win.

Yes, you made that clear with your initial post and then a counterpoint was brought up.

Because of course full spellcasting is going to trump everything else.

Gnaeus
2011-01-22, 10:45 AM
Yes, you made that clear with your initial post and then a counterpoint was brought up.

Because of course full spellcasting is going to trump everything else.

And the counterpoint was either right, or wrong, depending on your definitions.

It isn't a sure thing. A MOMF can clearly wildshape better than a cleric (a full caster). It isn't just that a Druid is more powerful or versatile than a MOMF (being able, for example, to wildshape into a flying form and rain fire down on the battlefield). It is that the Druid can use casting to WILDSHAPE better (stronger, more utility forms) than the MOMF at most levels.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 11:07 AM
And the counterpoint was either right, or wrong, depending on your definitions.

Or the counterpoint was there to point out that your definition is neither the only one nor the correct one but one of at least two. :smalltongue:

Togo
2011-01-22, 07:44 PM
It is probably what he wants. It is not better than a straight druid at most levels at wildshaping. At seventh level, the druid gets the Augment Wild Shape spell, giving him access to EX abilities which the MOMF will not get until ECL 12. Level 6, and 12-16 are the only levels in which it could be argued that MOMF is a better shapeshifter than a straight druid (and honestly, at most of those levels it is very debatable. The druid has access to long duration or quickened buffs that supercharge its forms, + the ability to take craft wondrous items and make wildling clasps). 17+ the druid gets Shapechange.

True. But the MoMFs gets a wider variety of shapes, a wider variety of Ex abilities within those shapes, better use of the assume supernatural ability feat from savage species due to increased choice of shapes, and can buy or have crafted the same items a straight druid can craft. He can also shift far more often. Both classes are starved for feats, so if you're relying on quickened spells, you're not duplicating the MoMFs fast shifting, because you'll have blown all your feats on craft wonderous item, two metamagics and natural spell.

I can see where you're coming from on Augment wild shape spell, which does make a huge difference, but I think the MoMFs has the edge right up until you reach shapechange, which is almost enough to make the class obsolete.

Eldariel
2011-01-22, 10:00 PM
True. But the MoMFs gets a wider variety of shapes, a wider variety of Ex abilities within those shapes, better use of the assume supernatural ability feat from savage species due to increased choice of shapes, and can buy or have crafted the same items a straight druid can craft. He can also shift far more often. Both classes are starved for feats, so if you're relying on quickened spells, you're not duplicating the MoMFs fast shifting, because you'll have blown all your feats on craft wonderous item, two metamagics and natural spell.

I can see where you're coming from on Augment wild shape spell, which does make a huge difference, but I think the MoMFs has the edge right up until you reach shapechange, which is almost enough to make the class obsolete.

If we consider the whole, Druid wins hands down. Druid has full strength animal companion and Druid's spellcasting alone is at least as strong as Wildshape; good mix of control spells, buffs, save-or-dies, restorative/curing abilities and warding along with some loltastic spells (Lvl 2 spell with a touch attack for blindness? Lvl 5 spell that can generate a tornado?), the spellcasting is just bonkers.

Further, Druid spellcasting, even if we only take numeric buffs like Barkskin, Animal's X (relevant for quite a while), Greater Magic Fang & co. we end up with merely numerical power on Druid's side. Then, when we add Enhanced Wildshape, Druid gets MoMF lvl 7 (ECL 12) ability on lvl 7, while also having the option of casting it multiple times to get enhanced stats in Wildshape in addition.

And all this ignores the fact that Druid animal companion is pretty good. So...yeah; MoMF isn't as strong as Druid but honestly, if it were I'd be crying "foul". And it still has some gamebreakers; you could honestly make an argument for MoMF being tier 2 thanks to the power of all the shapes + Extraordinary Wildshape.

Waker
2011-01-22, 10:05 PM
The greatly increased range of forms allowed from MoMF is great if you are willing to do some homework. But even in just the MM there are some fun forms to take. I love the idea of sneaking around as a Will O' Wisp with their natural invisibility and immunity to magic or charging the Iron Golem as a Rust Monster.

Togo
2011-01-23, 05:50 AM
And all this ignores the fact that Druid animal companion is pretty good. So...yeah; MoMF isn't as strong as Druid but honestly, if it were I'd be crying "foul". And it still has some gamebreakers; you could honestly make an argument for MoMF being tier 2 thanks to the power of all the shapes + Extraordinary Wildshape.

In the space between 12th -16th ECL, I consider MoMFs to be Tier 1, along with druid. Not as powerful as druid, but tier 1 for the same reason full casters are - because every supplement book makes the class even more flexible and even more powerful.

9th level spells swings it back to the casters of course, if only because of shapechange.