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View Full Version : The crazy half elf bard/sublime chord/ helf paragon/human paragon.



Hazzardevil
2011-01-22, 07:38 AM
In a game I am attempting to join I am going to be a bard build, focused more on songs and sublime chord casting than bard casting.

Any ideas on feats? I start at level 6.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 01:37 PM
Melodic Casting is a given. Song of the Heart probably fits in too. Versatile Spellcaster is excellent. Doomspeak and Haunting Melody are fun offensive uses for your music.

DFI is, well, it's DFI.


What are you using the racial paragon levels for?

Hazzardevil
2011-01-22, 04:20 PM
Whats DFI?
and also is caster level really that important?
All I need is 9th level spells and then I'm fine, since at high levels spells that deal d6 damage per caster level are useless aren't they?

Greenish
2011-01-22, 04:29 PM
Whats DFI?Dragonfire Inspiration. It's a feat from Dragon Magic that turns the bonus from Inspire Courage from +X attack/damage to +Xd6 fire damage per attack.


and also is caster level really that important?You said you wanted to focus on casting and songs. The racial paragon levels don't progress music at all, and slow your casting, so I'm wondering why you're taking them.

All I need is 9th level spells and then I'm fine, since at high levels spells that deal d6 damage per caster level are useless aren't they?Damage is hardly the only variable determined by the caster level (and blasting isn't "useless", it's merely less powerful as some other options for full casters).

Losing casting will also slow down your spells per day and getting higher spell levels.

Tyger
2011-01-22, 04:29 PM
DFI is Dragonfire Inspiration, considered by most (myself included) to be an awesome way of buffing your allies. Check Dragon Magic for full details.

As for the Paragon levels, they can / could work, but remember, you can only afford to lose one caster level once you start your Sublime Chord progression, as they only get 9th level spells at the 9th level of progression, meaning the absolute earliest you can get 9th level spells is 19th level with this combination. If you lose any caster levels after you start the progression, you won't get your 9th level spells until 20th (if you give up one caster level to a racial paragon level) or not at all if you give up more. So yes, caster level is really important, if it means you don't get the top level spells. :smallbiggrin:

And remember, you won't get into Sublime Chord until level eleven, as you need ten levels in anything else (barring extreme shenanigans) to get into the class.

Feats mentioned by Greenish would be my main recommendations as well.

EDIT: Darned Greenish... when did he take swordsage levels??

Hazzardevil
2011-01-22, 04:41 PM
I was thinking as long as I have 3rd level arcane bard spells by level ten I can loose all the bard spells I like. Would taking swiftblade be quite good since then I can melee quite well too.
DFI sounds good though. I'll look into it.

Greenish
2011-01-22, 04:44 PM
I was thinking as long as I have 3rd level arcane bard spells by level ten I can loose all the bard spells I like.You could, but why would you? Bard levels progress music, casting and have good chassis.

Coidzor
2011-01-22, 05:48 PM
I believe a standard thing is bard X/Virtuoso Y/Sublime Chord 1-2/Virtuoso Z-Y.

As in, the bog standard Sublime Chord build right after Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10.

Hazzardevil
2011-01-23, 05:59 AM
The main reason I was interested in the paragon levels is the feats and bonus scores, also do you reckon that I could convincemy DM to allow me to instead of gaining new spells per day with the paragon levels the DM will allow me to get new songs instead?

Coidzor
2011-01-23, 07:33 AM
The main reason I was interested in the paragon levels is the feats and bonus scores, also do you reckon that I could convincemy DM to allow me to instead of gaining new spells per day with the paragon levels the DM will allow me to get new songs instead?

It makes those levels weaker to convert their spellcasting into giving extra uses of bardic music, so possibly.

Hober Mallow
2011-01-23, 10:50 AM
If you’re going to be in melee a lot then Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) is a nice feat. +CHA to hit with one-handed slashing weapons for Perform: Dance rank rounds and 1 Bardic Music use.

At 13th level you can have +8 Cha from the 10 min/level spells Inner Beauty (+4 sacred) and Snowsong (+4 morale). This should put your CHA into the mid-30s getting +12 or +13 to hit from Snowflake Wardance alone.

Two weapon fighting becomes really dangerous at this point (buy Gloves of the Balanced Hand from the Magic Item Compendium to get the feat, you can get Improve Two-Weapon fighting and Power attack using an Eternal Wand of Heroics). That’s 5 or 6 attacks per round.

Song of the Heart for +1 to Bard song effects (and don’t forget the 1st level spell Inspirational Boost and a Badge of Valour, each give another +1 to Inspire Courage).

Then use Words of Creation to double your Inspire Courage bonus. Combine this, Song of the Heart, etc. and with Dragonfire Inspiration and many DMs will ban your PC because you’re looking at giving the party +10D6 fire damage per hit. Your two-weapon fighting snowflake wardancing Bard could easily be doing 60 to 70 points per successful blow before using Power Attack!

Melodic Casting is nice for a Bard caster (maintain a song whilst casting spells). Also lets you roll Perform in place of Concentration.

Later on once you get 2nd Sublime Chord I’ve found that Arcane Mastery is very nice if you’ve taken Greater Dispel Magic as a 5th level spell. Arcane Mastery lets you take 10 on a caster level check so with the +4 caster from Song of Arcane Power (and +2 from a Dispelling Cord) you should be able to automatically dispel most spells that you meet (and bypass spell resistance). Amazing at shutting down enemy casters.

I like Captivating Melody. +2 DC to Enchantment / Charm spell DCs. Very nice when you’ve ramped your CHA using Inner Beauty and Snowsong as the bad guys should be looking at a Will DC of 26 to 28 against Confusion.

Versatile Spellcaster is good for turning 2nd level spells per day into 3rd level spells (I never have enough 3rd level slots as Alter Fortune, Confusion and Haste get used quite a bit). Buy 1st level Memento Magica to get extra 1st level slots with which to cast your 2nd level spells (as the 2nd level slots will be used up).

I’ve been playing Bards for years and don’t rate the Virtuoso part of the Bard 9 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord combination. The Virtuoso level costs you 1 caster level and, very importantly, some 4th level spell slots (two of the most valuable spells for Bards are the 4th level spells Greater Mirror Image and Ruin Delver’s Fortune).

I prefer Bard 9 or 8 / Lyric Thaumaturge 1 or 2 / Sublime Chord 2, then have a think. LT2 gets you Captivating Melody at the cost of Inspire Greatness.

Hazzardevil
2011-01-23, 11:26 AM
COuld someone give me a list please of which books all this stuff comes from?
I know some,
Snowflake wardance: Frostburn
DFI: dragon magic I think.

Urpriest
2011-01-23, 11:35 AM
Losing the levels before Sublime Chord isn't horrible...and you still get enough with, for example, Bard 4/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3 before going into Sublime Chord. However, you lose out on six levels of song advancement on the low levels where it's the most important, and you can't take a level of Virtuoso before Sublime Chord without being unable to qualify, so you're either slowing your Sublime Chord casting or just dumping your songs completely.

That said, I could see this character being a skillmonkey/diplomancer using Human and Half-Elf Paragon at the low levels, then transitioning to a caster at higher level. Throwing songs into the mix would be too tricky though.

Hober Mallow
2011-01-23, 11:49 AM
Here's the list from my post

Feats
Arcane Mastery – Complete Arcane, page 73
Captivating Melody – Complete Mage p40
Dragonfire Inspiration – Dragon Magic p17
Melodic Casting – Complete Mage p44
Snowflake Wardance – Frostburn p50
Song of the Heart – Eberron Campaign Setting p60
Versatile Spellcaster – Races of the Dragon p101
Words of Creation – Book of Exalted Deeds p48 and p31

Spells
Alter Fortune – Players Handbook 2 p101
Greater Mirror Image – Players Handbook 2 p120
Inner Beauty – Fiendish Codex 1 p91
Inspirational Boost – Spell Compendium p124
Ruin Delver’s Fortune – Spell Compendium p178

Items
Badge of Valor – Magic item Compendium p208
Eternal Wand of Heroics – Magic Item Compendium p159Gloves of the Balanced Hand – Magic Item Compendium p105
Memento Magica – Magic item Compendium p164

Others
Lyric Thaumaturge – Complete Mage, p67
Sublime Chord – Complete Arcane p61
Song of Arcane Power – 2nd level Sublime Chord power

To make Bards really good, to the level where they are upper tier 2 and DMs start banning stuff, you need to go through a lot of sources.